 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-05-26 23:52
Dear Board:
If you use Legere European Signature reeds you HAVE to try this ligature!!! If you tried Legere European Signature reeds and they were just not quite up to your standards you NEED to try them again with the Luyben ligature.
What the newest Luyben does (these come with the knurled round grip sections on the screws):
o Much more resonance to the sound. This also equals LOUDNESS (greater dynamic range)
o MUCH more definition and punchiness to articulated notes
o Punchy low E and Low F notes: these tended to be less defined with Legere than cane
I found this out while hunting for more ligatures that bind at the top and bottom of the reed's stock (like the Bonade ligature with the center cut out). There are not many options out there.
I am pretty certain now that the effect that I get with the Luyben is partly the design and also to a great extent the material. I cannot say why it works so incredibly well, but some reasons may be the fact that the plastic stretches slightly even when tightened down. Plastic is very light weight. The material is rather inert and neither adds nor detracts from the Legere reeds.
I have been comparing to just about everything else out there, with the best conventional ligature being a Scott ligature (same basic design as the Luyben). The difference is STUNNING!!!! Though I am happy with the basic tone of the Scott, once I switch back to the Luyben, the sound opens up with the Luyben and can be much louder (when needed of course).
I want to address the breaking in period. In a Luyben search on this Board there was discussion about the break-in method. The important part (as far as I can tell) is to get the ligature to take on the contour of your mouthpiece/reed combo. To do this the important part of the instructions seem more to be breaking in the ligature for three days and NOT tightening the ligature as much as humanly possible.
My recommendations
o Oil the threads and screws first! (makes it easy to feel the tension in your fingers)
o Apply only enough tension to the ligature to allow it to "form fit" to your mouthpiece
o place the plate part of the ligature (sticks up a bit) right at the line of ligature
o buy new if you already have one (likely broken in for cane and even another mouthpiece)
o Buy direct from Luyben. The newest versions come with screws that have the knurled round grip sections.......MUCH easier to judge tension; apply; remove
.................Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2020-05-27 06:25)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2020-05-27 06:22
Hi All,
I still have my original Luyben from the early 1970s. With a Portnoy BP02 and an R13, I thought I had it pretty well hooked. I haven't looked but as I recall, this ligature may have had brass inserts in each of the screw holes.
Yes, finding ligatures that have minimum contacts is difficult but I still have several. Among them are two Scott ligatures and three Portnoy ligatures. Interestingly, I had an emails from Portnoy many years about trying find his ligature. He said "mine is OK but just get a Bonade; it's just as good" or words to that effect.
I also have several Ratteree ligatures that he sent me a couple of years ago. A friend of mine and I were thinking about remanufacturing them as his patent had long since run out. Jack said "good luck..."
Here's a link to an earlier discussion on Ratteree's ligature.
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=167822&t=167822
HRL
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2020-05-27 06:41
We should learn while we're still breathing, but my advice would be to take a deep breath and wait a month, Paul.
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Author: Erez Katz
Date: 2020-05-27 07:50
The Luyben + Legere European Signature has been my setup since I switched to a crystal mouthpiece, about 5 months ago.
I was using before a Vandoren Optimum and while it worked well on Vandoren mouthpieces, on the Pomarico I felt the reed vibrated more freely with the Luyben while maintaining the same secure grip. Legere reeds are smoother than cane and easily move about on crystal mouthpieces.
Last week I was doing some reed testing/adjusting and missed the VO's easy-on-easy-off. I have been alternating between them, there is a lot to say for that one as well. Both work better for me than Rovner ligs.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-05-27 11:24
I used to use a Vandoren A2 with a clear Luyben ligature with Bari plastic reeds back in the late '80s/early '90s - if only the ligature screws were clear too!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: donald
Date: 2020-05-27 13:00
I miss the Vinson "Equatone" ligatures- I never used them in performance, but when trying different reeds, working on reeds, rehearsal or teaching (when I often change reeds) they were very convenient. I had two, gave one to a student- then my remaining one has disappeared. They seem to be discontinued. :-(
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-05-27 15:12
The Vinson Equatone is a noble honorable mention. I have not verified that they are no longer made.
https://www.amazon.com/Robert-Vinson-Equatone-Ligatures-Clarinet/dp/B000LPOZPA/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=robert+vinson+clarinet+ligature&qid=1590576910&sr=8-1
I got one off Ebay when it initially appeared they were not available through retail. Mine was sent directly from Gustav Rieckhoff (inventor/manufacturer) in Quincy Illinois.
This was the first product to point to the incredible benefit of plastics as a material for ligatures to be used with Legere reeds. It is a single screw, pouch design made of polypropylene. The material is a bit "mushier" than Luyben's and once "formed" to the mouthpiece you can just slide it off and on. Set up is a snap! The sound is more subdued though which is what makes it attractive as well. It has a softer effect much like using "reed string" or a Pyne slip on ligature for cane.
I chose to highlight the Luyben because it promotes a more powerful sound (which can be moderated) that can be used for greater dynamic contrast.
.....................Paul Aviles
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2020-05-29 17:29
The one thing I've learned about ligatures in my long playing and teaching career is that different ligatures respond differently to different players and equipment. Another thing I've learned is that the differences are usually subtle in most cases and reflect more of a difference in feel and response to the player, which of course can make them more comfortable with one over another, but doesn't ALWAYS reflect a difference in tone quality to the listener.
When I was a student in the 50s and early 60s there were probably 3-4 "popular" ligatures and very few people made a big deal over them. These days there are dozens of manufactures and models available. Some players switch between a few depending on personal preferences at the time. I know for a fact Ricardo Morales often switches at different times and performances, other players, probably the majority, choose one that like the most and use that exclusively.
That was always my preference but I did switch ligature over time when I found one I preferred over what I was presently using. I have a draw full of them that i collected over the years and often gave them to my students.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-05-29 20:25
Hey Ed,
I wanted to quote your post from the 2010 Luyben thread where you said, "I don't care for how it made me sound." It was important to me to hear that the Luyben used with cane was not universally loved despite some compelling stories at the time to the contrary.
I would hasten to add that we can't all try every combination of stuff with everything else because it is just not practical and quite frankly would be exhausting. With that in mind I am quite eager to be excited about the PLASTIC / PLASTIC combo because the marked difference it makes.
I don't know how Luyben ligatures behave with cane because I'd never tried them before and have decided over the last five years to dedicate myself to Legere with all their associates pros.....and cons. But it is good to know that it is possible to suffer far fewer cons with the European Signature reeds.
The difference between Legere and cane now is much smaller.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2020-05-30 16:53
Hi Paul, I can't belive you remembered, or found my quote, from 2010 about the Luyben. As I've said numerous times over the years, nothing clarinet wise fits all. Many years ago I wrote an article for the Clarinet Journal comparing a number of different popular ligature of the time. But as always, i do remember stating that it was my opinion and it depends on the mouthpiece, reed, concept etc. The Luyben would never have become a popular ligature if so many people didn't like it.
Take care, I'm happy you found your ideal set up. I found mine a half dozen times in my career. :-)
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: graham
Date: 2020-05-30 19:55
I use Luyben ligatures on Eb and Bb/A set ups. Was hoping they made for bass, but it seems not.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2020-05-31 07:34
Amazon, Weiner and J.W. Pepper claim to have Vinson ligatures in stock. (I stopped looking after I found these three sources.)
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Ed
Date: 2020-05-31 16:11
I always thought the Luyben was decent when I tried it. Maybe that would be a good solution the Legere as when I tried them my biggest complaint was that any ligature I tried did not hold them securely. Luybens initially seem a little snug, which may solve that.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-05-31 17:18
The idea is NOT that it is snug (backing off the tension can create even more resonance as with most ligatures), but rather that the PLASTIC is a perfect match for the Legere reed creating a far more resonant experience than what one gets with any OTHER material.
Again, NOT a typical ligature/reed experience but rather something much MUCH more.
I have a typical, cheap, generic Chinese ligature on order to prove this point and will report when I get it. In the meantime I would think anyone playing Legere right now would benefit GREATLY from investing $14 dollars to try the Luyben out for themselves.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Ed
Date: 2020-06-01 00:02
Quote:
The idea is NOT that it is snug (backing off the tension can create even more resonance as with most ligatures), but rather that the PLASTIC is a perfect match for the Legere reed creating a far more resonant experience than what one gets with any OTHER material.
While it may be a case that it is a perfect match acoustically, my point was that it may also hold the reed more securely. In my experiences it was hard to really evaluate the Legere and get the full benefit as it did not hold securely on my mouthpiece. The design of the Luyben might have a couple of benefits in my case.
Post Edited (2020-06-11 03:44)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-06-10 21:43
The answer is.......PLASTIC !!!!!!
[irrespective of the design]
I have received and played on a basic Chinese ligature (plastic) and a Gigliotti ligature and the results are the same:
o Much louder
o More resonant
o More defined notes (particularly in the low chalumeau
I would strongly suggest manufacturers of ligatures and anyone with a 3D Printer start offering more plastic clarinet ligatures for those of us who play Legere reeds.
And I urge anyone who'd previously been on the fence about the efficacy of Legere reeds in the first place to try them again with any available plastic ligature.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Ed
Date: 2020-06-11 03:47
Maybe you should try them with a plastic mouthpiece and clarinet to see if it applies to those as well! ;-)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-06-11 05:06
So Ed,
You play Legere reeds?
Have you tried any of the plastic ligatures with them to compare?
................Paul Aviles
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Author: BethGraham
Date: 2020-06-11 06:45
Tony Pay wrote:
"'It's was twenty years ago today...'"
My curiosity got the better of me, and I finally clicked on your link, Sgt. Pepper. That was a clear and thoughtful mini-essay on how a focus on gadgets might derail a person from a larger, more meaningful study of a discipline. Thank you for the reminder.
Thank you for the earworm, too.
Edited to fix spelling mistake.
Post Edited (2021-04-21 17:38)
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Author: donald
Date: 2020-06-11 17:18
Beth Graham - slightly off topic, but there's a Beatles clip on Youtube (I think it's one for "Day in the Life") that includes shots of an orchestra playing at a Beatles session, and catches a moment of Jack Brymer chatting with the musician next to him... just for a second...
Meanwhile- I've sworn that I'm never buying another fancy ligature. So Paul- you'll have to do it for me, you DO realise that Brad Behn is planning on marketing a hard rubber ligature? He's just about done with prototypes, last thing I heard.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-06-11 18:09
I hope there is someone out there who engineers with various materials and can explain what is happening with the vibrational characteristics of the mouthpiece/reed system here. Keep in mind that the Legere reed is a rigid vibrating body unlike cane which is softer and somewhat inert. Clearly there are a different interactions between cane and plastic reeds, and the various materials used for ligatures.
Here are the most common materials in ligatures.......that DO NOT have the same affect:
Metal is pretty rigid; will not expand and contract (quickly) in the same way plastic does
Wood much like metal but is lighter in mass
String (real string like 100% cotton cording) has give, but lacks rigidity
Leather (and similar materials) is much like string, can stretch but no ability to resonate
My guess is that hard rubber might behave like metal in that it lacks the "give" that even high impact plastics have.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Jimis4klar
Date: 2020-06-11 18:35
First of all, Paul Aviles! What are the differences between the black Luyben and the white(clear) Luyben ligatures??? Which one works better with the Legere europeans???
And lastly, can you explain your recommendations a little better???
Is there a video or pictures with those? Can you make something? Please???
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Author: Jimis4klar
Date: 2020-06-12 00:45
Well, you still didn't make clear your recommendations-instructions about using the ligature.. Can you make It?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-06-12 01:56
I may not understand the question.
If you play with a $210 Silverstein Cryo4 gold ligature and then an $11.99 generic Chinese plastic ligature, you'll find the $11.99 generic Chinese ligature will sound as twice good.
This is not intended as an endorsement of the $11.99 Chinese generic ligature. But you get the idea.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Jimis4klar
Date: 2020-06-12 20:48
You didn't understand my question.. I need you to explain these instructions/recommendations a little better..:
1) Oil the threads and screws first! (makes it easy to feel the tension in your fingers)
2) Apply only enough tension to the ligature to allow it to "form fit" to your mouthpiece
3) place the plate part of the ligature (sticks up a bit) right at the line of ligature
4) buy new if you already have one (likely broken in for cane and even another mouthpiece)
5) Buy direct from Luyben. The newest versions come with screws that have the knurled round grip sections.......MUCH easier to judge tension; apply; remove
1) What kind of oil you use on threads and screws???
2)You live the ligature on to the mouthpiece with the reed? For how long?("to form fit")
3)This one I didn't understand what you mean... Can you explain?
5) I ordered this, Is gonna be good for Legere European? I think so! https://www.ebay.com/itm/254618981593
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Author: pewd
Date: 2020-06-12 20:55
FWIW, Luyben Music is closing, going out of business. Next week I believe.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-06-13 01:01
Holy smoke!
That would make two out of three that I have listed as no longer available. This makes it a moral imperative for you industrious and business types to fill the void. I guess the only downside is that a completely plastic ligature will never sell for huge money (no NASA grade cables, cocobolo plates imported from Brazil, or solid gold cryogenically frozen nodules).
Ah.......the instructions pertain to the Luyben instructions that are on the package. Believe it or not they actually say that if the ends (on the screw side of course) are more than 1/8" apart when already really tight using your fingers, you are suppose to take a pair of pliers and tighten it until it gets to that distance (!!!??!!!!). The idea is that the plastic will take on the shape of your mouthpiece and reed after three days of doing that every time you put your reed on.
Sorry, I had far more to say than what would have fit into one post that anyone would bother to read so I left it short and catered to those who buy the Luyben (with the odd instructions).
Also, there were folks on this Board from a post around 2010 who balked about how hard it was to turn the screws of the Luyben (even when not under any tension). Yes, the plastic threading is tight, but is much easier to use if you apply some key oil. Even the omni present stuff like water is fine, but I use Hetman's Medium weight key oil for general stuff (and the heavy weight for the actual keys themselves).
The rest of the "instructions" were about the moulding to your mouthpiece. For OUR purposes of the Legere plastic resonating much better with the plastic ligature, achieving the "form fit" is not that important, and is really not the point. That said, if you are one who has one from years ago, you'd have stretched it out to capacity with cane a long time ago and the thin Legeres (from top of reed bottom that is) would then be too small (given the same sized mouthpiece that is). Therefore you'd need to reinvest another $14.00.
Lastly, the Luyben seems to work best positioned HIGH, at the top line of ligature. When you get it, you'll see that the part that hold the reed extends slightly above the rest of the ligature. It's ok to place that on the line of ligature rather than the bands that wrap around the mouthpiece.
Sorry for the confusion..........but you see how long this is getting.
................Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2020-06-13 01:03)
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2020-06-13 04:24
Everyone calm down and don’t start a run on Luyben ligatures. Only the storefront is closing. They will continue to fulfill orders online and by phone, and the plan is to open up a small, clarinet-only store. I would imagine that the production of the ligatures isn’t stopping.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2020-06-13 08:34
>> If you tried Legere European Signature reeds and they were just not quite up to your standards you NEED to try them again with the Luyben ligature. <<
I did and found the opposite. Well not the opposite, I guess that would be the ligature making it worse. It made no difference at all compared with several other ligatures. I tried every Legere model available in many sgrenths. Gave them a real try (played just Legere reeds for a few months). Found real and specific, repeatable issues. The Luyben ligature didn't change anything or improved these issues.
I don't really post about it (unless specifically asked in real life) because it doesn't necessarily matter to anyone else. I don't want to put those issues "in their heads" if others try them.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-06-13 08:53
Clarnibass,
Thank you for offering up an honest assessment. It could be that I may be a bit overly enthusiastic. My frame of reference is that I have been using the Legere European Signature reeds for the last five years with really good results. So I am a bit preconditioned towards positive results. Also, for many different reasons I have committed to using the Legeres exclusively........no matter what.
I did notice just the other day that the ping and projection where much less noticeable in a smaller room (I was forced indignantly into a bedroom for a practice session not sanctioned by my wife!).
Though I would say if those out there who tend toward Legere don't try out some form of a plastic ligature, they would be missing out on a cheap and pretty dramatic (much more than I'd ever expect) result.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Jimis4klar
Date: 2020-06-13 17:16
Hey! Now what??? You're saying at first the Legere Europeans work even better with Luyben "A GAME CHANGER" than Silverstein ligatures and now you're saying It doesn't make any difference with Luyben??? WTF man??? Anyway, I'll post my personal results after sometime I try It... It was pretty cheap so It worthed to order for trying...
Post Edited (2020-06-13 17:26)
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Author: Jimis4klar
Date: 2020-06-13 17:43
As for the instructions, you said they're written on the package of the ligature,
I ordered this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/254618981593
Instructions will be on the back of the carbon paper???
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-06-13 20:58
Not my personal opinion.......just offering acknowledgement that others such as above may be capable of a different opinion.
I hear there are some people who even enjoy listening to the sound of a saxophone.
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2020-06-14 08:03
FWIW: IDK what the Luyben is made of but some oils (or solvents in oils like valve or key oil) may damage the plastic over time. I’m sure something can be found that’s safe though. Would require some research.
- Matthew Simington
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Author: Jimis4klar
Date: 2020-06-16 14:06
Anyone knows If the Luyben white(clear) ligature is made by same material as Legere European reeds?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-06-16 15:10
According to the Legere website under "Need to know/Why they work" Legere reeds are made of polypropylene. The ligature that clearly identifies itself as being fabricated out of polypropylene is the Robert Vinson (created and manufactured by Gustav Rieckoff).
Luyben is a form of plastic though I have not seen a specific claim of what type it is. According to the Luyben website, the plastic used on all their ligatures is precisely the same save for added dyes to create different colors: Opaque, Black, Silver, Green, Yellow, Red, and Purple.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Slowoldman
Date: 2020-06-16 17:06
I actually called them and asked the question a couple of years ago. The materials in all their ligatures are identical, other than the color/dye.
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2020-06-16 23:10
Are the style of the screws any indication of the version of the ligature? Some have flat pieces to turn, whereas other screws are completely round with a nice knurling on them.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2020-06-16 23:29
Are there pics available somewhere of the new version?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-06-17 00:17
Attachment: Knurled Luyben.jpg (140k)
These were purchased directly from Luyben in the last month. I did not know until receiving them that the knurled thumbscrews were available. They do make the process easier and more sensitive to the touch. I'm sure there is plenty of "new old stock" at music outlets and Amazon so order direct (and double check with them to be sure).
I have them in Opaque, Black, Red and Silver (really a pewter color).
All have identical results despite color or type of screw.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: rtaylor
Date: 2020-06-17 19:38
Hi,
Anyone who uses the Luyben, will it work on smaller diameter mouthpieces? In other words,is the range of adjustment for the screws enough for smaller mouthpieces?
Cheers,
Robert
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-06-18 00:20
Funny enough I use an old Richard Hawkins (RH designation to right of table) that is about as small in circumference as my German mouthpieces (Zinner, Wurlitzer, Viotto). All the plastic ligatures I have tried so far work just fine (even though many standard ligatures will not.....too big) which include the Gigliotti, the Robert Vinson and a generic no brand name from China.
Following the Luyben "stretching" instructions may not be in the cards for a narrow mouthpiece, but it seems to form a little bit around the mouthpiece and reed over several days as described on the package with some tightening room to spare......if you don't over do it.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: rtaylor
Date: 2020-06-18 17:13
Thanks for the quick response Paul.
I think I need to look into ordering one of the Luybens now.
Cheers,
Robert
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Author: Kevin Fay
Date: 2020-07-02 00:57
Wow . . . ligatures again changing the world.
FWIW, a Luyben was the first ligature I ever bought, about 1976. My teacher had one. I had stepped on the metal one that came with my Vito clarinet (stenciled "Wurlitzer" like the electric organs), figured that would be the "best" since Bill Wicker (my teacher) was a fine player. He was also cool, and no one else in my band had one. (It was also inexpensive, and I was not rich.)
It fulfilled its function - holding the reed on - admirably.
Since then I have purchased every ligature listed in this very long string, and more. I had a day job that paid well, could collect them. Some worked better than others. A few of the most expensive did *not* effectively hold the reed on the mouthpiece, can't recommend them.
I *can* suggest what you might want to avoid. Tony Pay noted a post he made 20 years ago. This is a little bit older: http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/lookup.php/Klarinet/2000/03/000222.txt.
Today - as in what I'm practicing with right now - I'm using an old Kaspar. It holds the reed on just fine, and since it's older than I am it's really cool. Stanley Hasty used one, and he was cool.
I also use a Vandoren Optimum. It was spendy. It has different plates that you can fuss with, on the *same* ligature. On the practical side, it's really quick to put on and take off, which helps with reed testing and stuff.
I will assert only one Universal Truth to playing clarinet: it helps if you blow into the pointy end.
Best,
kjf
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Author: ISM
Date: 2020-07-02 05:11
Kevin,
Thank you for converting this thread into something useful and interesting. Up until this point I found it frustrating that a thread with such an absurd title could generate such interest.
I’m only a hobbyist clarinet player, and I’m sure that I’m not as good a player as you are. So, clearly I don’t have all the answers or even any of them. That said, in my experience the only game changer is consistent and well-executed practice, not ligatures, reeds, barrels, or mouthpieces.
Sometimes I wonder whether all of the focus on such equipment details sends the wrong message to the younger readers of the board.
BTW, I still have my Wurlitzer clarinet from the 1970s. And here is a pro tip for Paul: using the plastic mouthpiece that came with it and a strength 2 Rico reed, I can play so dang loudly.
Thanks again, Kevin.
Imre
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-07-02 06:18
I do truly appreciate the counterpoint. Mostly, under normal circumstances and use of cane reeds I would tend to agree with you. I do own pretty much every ligature under the sun and went through most of them with my Legere European Signature reeds while having WAY too much COVID time on my hands. ALSO, I freely admit that when I first converted to the Legere reeds (which are plastic, not cane if there is any confusion about that) it was quite apparent that all the standard expensive ligatures held very little difference amongst them regarding response and or sound.
That is why I posted this for the benefit of those who would not have otherwise tried yet another ligature with their plastic reeds.
This is equal to the difference between Selmer clarinets and Buffet clarinets in terms of response.
I would be even more appreciative if those who are regular Legere users would post some results..........or lack thereof. We are only talking $16 dollars here folks. Naysaying is all well and good if there is at least a little bit of actual experience behind it.
So please - bring it on!
Oh, there is one more hack I want to pass along. The Luybens are a bit fussy on placement the way they are designed to be used (I would say place the top of the 'reed plate' just in line with the top 'line of ligature'), however if you invert them (an inverted, inverted ligature so that it closes directly over the reed), the negative side effects of poor placement (up or down upon the reed) become nonexistent.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Djudy
Date: 2020-07-04 15:07
For what it's worth, the name rang a bell and I went to a old case and found I actually have a clear (ugly) Luyben that came with my R13. I didn't pay much attention to it at the time because knowing nothing about it plastic seemed 'cheap' and I had a Vandoren Optimum that I liked ok and was easy to manipulate, although for some mps it twists on a Legere reed and I have to be careful about lining it up while tightening it in place. So after seeing this post I went and tried the Luyben and was surprised to actually feel/hear a difference ! And it was very easy to put on, just snuggled down perfectly. Sounds great with a Legere 2.5 Classic on a vintage wooden Buffet Crampon mp on the S1 or the Behn Prescott on the Centered Tone. So thank you Paul for bringing this up, otherwise I never would have gone back and tried it. (I should have guessed that if it came with the R13 it was there for a reason!)
Post Edited (2020-07-05 02:40)
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Author: graham
Date: 2020-07-05 18:52
I use Luyben on my E Flat (old one) and Bb (new one). Haven’t tried legere but they work well on cane, including soprano sax reeds (recent experiment). graham
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-07-06 02:09
Soprano saxophone reeds are the same width dimension of the Legere European Signature reeds. In fact many players who use the Legere European Signature reeds also switch off with Legere's Signature soprano saxophone reeds. Difference? The Legere soprano saxophone reeds are shorter, feature a shorter vamp and play a bit harder and brighter. So you can get a similar result but "different" sound by adjusting slightly downward in strength.....usually a quarter strength softer than what you'd use in a Legere European Signature.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0BmXMoPFHs
Most notably check out 0:54 seconds
..............Paul Aviles
P.S. For all who will have tried a plastic ligature with Legere.......You're welcome!
Post Edited (2020-07-06 02:10)
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Author: graham
Date: 2020-07-06 14:36
Yes, and they play differently. But I haven’t done for long so a bit early to try to describe the difference. However, the reeds are shorter so ligature design is fairly critical. Works with a basic metal ligature and Luyben.
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Author: NOLA Ken
Date: 2020-07-06 21:45
After reading this thread I decided to try the new version of the Luyben ligature, despite it appearing to be just another piece of cheap plastic. (I've never been fond of the similarly-designed Bonade ligatures.) I was really surprised at how much better articulation, projection and "punch" I get out of it than I do on my usual Rovner Light and Dark ligatures on Legere European Signature 2.75 and 2.5 reeds. Tone seems a bit more resonant to my ears as well. That holds across several different mouthpieces and clarinets. Thanks Paul, for calling my attention to it. I would have never thought it myself.
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Author: Jimis4klar
Date: 2020-07-16 01:00
Hello again Paul, I have a question about Luyben instructions, It plays an important role on which mouthpiece you'll stretch the ligature the first 3 days?? Or you can just do It on any mouthpiece?? For example, If I stretch It on a BD5 and after time switch to a Backun Vocalise and use Luyben, doesn't matter?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-07-16 02:38
If you are using Legere reeds, I would strongly suggest to ignore the instructions. I am finding that the ligature works great just snugging it up with the reed.
The important aspect is that the plastic of which the ligature is made seems to promote a much greater amount of resonance with plastic reeds. I wish I had some fabrication engineering experience to understand the interaction, but that is the end result.
The idea of the prescribed "stretching" is to get the ligature to take on the shape/dimensions of your mouthpiece/reed combo. I don't know if that necessarily changes the effect with the Legeres, but if you do decide to do that, you won't be able to go DOWN in size. But a bigger mouthpiece (mouthpiece of larger diameter) should work fine as a second try.
Also don't forget to try the ligature inverted with the screws on the reed side (I realize that way the screws are on the "wrong side" but it is a small price to pay for that option). Besides freeing up the position of the ligature (standard inverted form seems to have a sweet spot) it also is a little less bright, but equally loud and resonant!
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Jimis4klar
Date: 2020-07-17 09:02
Thank you very much Paul! You yourself didn't stretch your Luyben because you're using Legeres, right? I'm planing to use Legeres with this ligature too... You use It mostly with the screws on the reed or normally(inverted)?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-07-17 14:23
I continue to experiment as time goes on. I alternate the posture (inverted or not) of the Luybens depending on the response I get from various aged reeds. The older and weaker reeds get the standard inverted posture most of the time to get every last drop of performance out of them.
The Luyben "stretching" was not much in the cards for me in the first place since I use older Hawkins mouthpieces which are very narrow. However, I did begin with the stretching on the first few that I bought (I always go overboard when I get going on an idea) but the remaining three (I now have every color with the exception of purple) have just been used without any stretching at all. In the end for me there would never have ever been much stretching and the spacing of the open end is about the same now after considerable use for either the earlier and later acquisitions.
I hasten to add, as stated by Luyben itself, there is no discernible difference in performance amongst the colors of the ligatures. I assume most users would prefer the Opaque, Black and Silver (gray really....it is plastic after all) but the other colors are fun.
....................Paul Aviles
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Author: Jimis4klar
Date: 2020-07-17 20:03
OK, the official instructions of Luyben ligature say for trying the ligature and compare with other ligatures, you have to stretch the ligature, you believe this is 100% a must for comparison or exactly 50%-50%(also based on the setup everyone uses..?) I don't know.. I personally kinda don't want to... I'm afraid I may break something...
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-07-17 21:35
The whole concept is with respect to cane reeds. I know that back in the 70's there were a fair number of really good players that used the Luybens and loved them. I also assume they stretched per instructions.
However, the effect that the plastic ligature is having with plastic reeds seems 100% with regard to the MATERIAL itself and not the architecture (and/or the shaping of it). I have come to this conclusion using the Luybens as well as about four different Gigliotti ligatures and the one Robert Vinson that I have.
I would still LOVE to see manufacturers put out different versions of plastic ligatures such as a big thick plate like this:
https://shop.weinermusic.com/Rovner-Ligature-Turbo-Charger-Kit/productinfo/LRTURBO/
all in plastic of course!
......................Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2020-07-17 22:18)
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Author: Jimis4klar
Date: 2020-08-10 10:39
Hello, anyone knows this ligature?? https://www.ebay.com/itm/171879954493?ul_noapp=true
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-08-10 15:14
Yup.
This is the generic Chinese plastic ligature that I referred to up in here on a few occasions.
Same results as the other plastic ligatures: AMAZING resonance and projection.
For me though, the design is not optimal for the European Signatures because there are four raised "spikes" (narrow prominences) that are probably meant to cradle normal width reeds, but just lands on the edges of the European Signatures. So set up is difficult. Inverted is ok but it is also somewhat "slippery" and not a good match with my narrow mouthpiece.
So far, these are much better options:
Luyben
Robert Vinson
Gigliotti
By the way, if you have a stripped Gigliotti you can modify with 3/4" length, 6-32 hex cap screws and add the same thread size knurled thumb nuts (I use black nylon versions off EBay).
..................Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2020-08-10 15:40)
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Author: BethGraham
Date: 2021-04-21 17:58
Anyone know if I can get this easily in Canada for a decent price?
(Yes, I'm being lured by the Gadget Siren Song. Let's blame it on the pandemic, shall we?)
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Author: BethGraham
Date: 2021-04-21 19:01
That's what I was thinking, too, but wondered if there was a source "in country." Thanks, Ed!
Edited to add that I've sent an email to Luyben to inquire about shipping.
Edited (again!) to add that I've heard back, and shipping would be the same price as the ligature. Oh, well.
Post Edited (2021-04-23 04:04)
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Author: super20dan
Date: 2021-04-24 22:18
paul-thanks so much for posting the hardware to fix a striped gigliotti. i got what you recommended at ace hardware and am excited to try it out . also excited to try my 2 luybyns with legere . got a black and a clear
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-04-24 23:38
Awesome "super20dan." Glad to pass that along.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: super20dan
Date: 2021-04-25 05:12
ok i spent several hours swaping ligatures around with a legre on a vintage beechler white mpc i have which is a bit of a powerhouse to start with. the luyben is def brighter and louder. a very close 2nd was the robert vinson and the gigliotti a distant 3rd. of the luybens the clear was louder than the black for me
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2021-04-25 05:50
I discovered the Luyben ligature some years ago and decided that for me, the search for the perfect ligature was over. I bought a bunch of them so that I never run out. I've been using them with the Legere European cut for some years now. At my somewhat limited level this is as good as its ever going to get.
Tony F.
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Author: BethGraham
Date: 2021-04-25 20:05
Were you successful in finding somewhere locally to purchase from? I'm not having any success finding a dealer in Canada that carries them.
Edited for 1) autocorrect fail and 2) to say that I ended up buying one from Amazon.com today. I had been hoping for a purple one, but all they had was black. Oh, well: another dream shattered.
Post Edited (2021-04-25 23:47)
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2021-04-26 18:55
I found the manufacturers website and ordered then online directly from them. Quick delivery to Australia, no problems.
Tony F.
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Author: BethGraham
Date: 2021-04-26 19:54
Thanks, Tony. Like I said in my edit above, I ended up ordering from Amazon in the States, which was less expensive than ordering directly from Luyben. (The downside being that I was limited to black for the color!)
Looking forward to trying this thing and seeing how it compares to my other ligatures (Rovner Dark and a somewhat self-mangled Bonade).
Beth
Post Edited (2021-04-26 23:07)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-04-27 01:41
Not sure why that would be a question.
Of course. They are amazing with the Legere reeds.
If you use Legeres, have you tried the Luyben yet? Any thoughts?
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2021-04-28 04:11
So..........your experience with the Luyben ligature is that when used with the Legere European Signature reeds, cinched down snuggly it DOES NOT provide any better resonance then that with a standard metal, or other such ligature that is not plastic?
I have gone yet another round with ligatures myself (owning just about everything and buying more in the process) have found that perhaps you can loosen up some of the pouch design ligatures (BG Standard, BG Revelation, BG Flex, Rovner Versa with flaps over the insert, Rovner VersaX with flaps over the insert) that can also have pretty good results. However, the issue there is that you MUST remove the mouthpiece for swabbing and switching clarinets along with the barrel or you will find a handful of reed and ligature. Other than that, for me, the metal ligatures just damp the sound to a point where it is not competitive with the Luyben.
..................Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2021-04-28 06:00)
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2021-04-28 20:37
Quote:
Not sure why that would be a question.
Perhaps because the topic is a year old, and J.J.'s question is later (apparently) admittedly justified by:
Quote:
I have gone yet another round with ligatures myself
(Not intending any ill will. The above banter made me chuckle. We seem to be such a bristly bunch now-a-days!)
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2021-04-29 19:34
I say the following with absolutely nothing but respect for Paul Aviles, who I am all but certain initially recommended the Luyben/Legere combination above for no other reason that his finding it a combination worth writing about so others could potentially benefit.
In the history of clarinet gizmos I've rarely gone out and purchased based on the recommendations of a few. This is in no way meant to disrespect or disparage those who wrote of gear based performance improvements, almost always with good intentions, but, I believe it was Mr. Palanker's observations above, which I paraphrase, that the term YMMV (your mileage might vary) perhaps no better applies to gear in the clarinet space. For me, within this space, perhaps few items give me more trepidation for improvements than ligatures: YMMV.
This is not to say that there are clarinet products out there, more the exception than the rule, that enough players have peer reviewed with accolades that I've gone out and purchased: both with success and failure. The ATG reed adjustment system has to be near the top of the my list gear that has been successful for me.
This said, in violation of this tradition I have gone out and purchased the Luyben ligature from Luyben. I've never had a plastic ligature nor as much success with Legere reeds as I'd like and figured for $16 it was worth it to see how much, for me, Paul's report of performance improvements is concurred.
I'll report my findings, which of course have no bearing on Paul.
Post Edited (2021-04-29 19:39)
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Author: BethGraham
Date: 2021-04-29 22:36
I'm looking forward to hearing your experience.
I'm currently trying out a friend's Spriggs ligature, which so far is vastly superior to both my Rovner Dark and Bonade Inverted in terms of how I perceive the response. I'll be interested in comparing it with the Luyben.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2021-05-01 03:54
The following is my review of the Luyben ligature. It arrived in the mail today and features the new knurled ligature screws as purchased directly from Luyben.
.....
In fairness, please know this upfront: I'm not a gear guy. Well, at least I don't think of myself as one. I mean it's not like I'm playing same "lime green clarinet" I got off of ebay: I play a golden era R-13 with a Vandoren M15 mouthpiece.
So sure gear matters, and has limitations. More important than anything, I think, is for you to assess where you think I stand on the topic of gear wars.
But I don't think of myself as a gear guy because of philosophies, correct ones I firmly believe, set in my motion by my teachers of years gone by, that advocated that advancement on the instrument lies in the the disciplined application of lessons within the well known study guides of our craft, with near religious adherence to the metronome.
Sure, a good reed and some tricks to make it better get thrown into the mix, better still a strong mouthpiece, but I'll take Bearman 3, a metronome, and that cheapo ligature on ebay, over a Silverstein and limiting myself to Rubank Volume I (no disrespect to that study series.)
Still more, within the gear space, I'm most critical of ligatures. This isn't to say that I haven't noticed differences. And in fair disclosure I do play a name brand one, a Vandoren M/O to be precise, but not for sound, but rather its dual threaded ability to quickly grab and release a reed with minimal torque, for purposes or replacing or adjusting it. So know that I'm attracted to the M/O for purely practical reasons, not based on how I think it plays or responds.
So that's where I'm coming from as I rate this ligature and compare it to Paul's opinion of it. I'm about to praise a piece of gear. That praise won't be as zealous as Paul's, but for me, such praise at all, is huge.
Still more, as mentioned, I've hardly given it weeks of play, nor let it conform to my mouthpiece as instructed--but I don't think I have to, simply because, surprisingly enough for me to say, I do think Paul is on to something. Were I negative, I do think such break in period might only be fair before commenting.
Again, I'm not as zealous as Paul is in the ligature's affect on improving Legere's, but make no mistake, I do concur with him that Legere reeds (Signature in my case) are improved by it, and that I may need to tweak my beliefs a little, that ligatures matter little.
With both Legeres and cane reeds, there is more vibrancy for me with the Luyben ligature. For me, this is a good thing for Legeres and may be neutral or possibly unwanted for cane. Still more, I'm still not convinced to move off of cane with this synthetic reed and ligature combination, but I can see why some professionals might do so. To any extent that there is somewhat of a performance hit using synthetics over strong cane, consistency with synthetics may outweigh this for pros with limited time to tend to cane.
So I agree with Paul and I think the Luyben a great ligature, especially for its price. I think that I will definitely give the device a run for its money, especially on cane I wish was more responsive, and switch it up with my regular ligature. I'm glad to have it in my arsenal. And especially at its price, I would recommend it.
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Author: rvazquez
Date: 2021-05-08 03:25
I had read this thread a while back and found it very interesting. I am another anti equipment or anti gadget guy who has been playing the same three Otmar Hammerschmidt (Oehler System / Zinner blank) mouthpieces for over 20 years. Fact is that I got my first "zero" (number 0 facing, measuring 0.7X mm) mouthpiece, as we lovingly called them, in 1982. I have played a "zero" since then. Well, I must confess, I have created my own mouthpiece cemetery. We can save that story for another time.
So, after reading and following this thread, "If only they made one ligature for the Austrian mouthpiece," was my first reaction. Fast forward to a few days ago when, while talking to my old teacher Genesio Riboldi, he happened to mention that he was playing the clear Luyben. Genesio has opted for allowing the ligature to hang a bit low on his "zero" mouthpiece. Yeah, he has a mouthpiece cemetery of his own... What he reported was that he loves the Luyben and on blind tests with his students, this ligature has come on top.
So, I ordered two ligatures which arrived yesterday. My first task was to cut four pieces of plastic which I glued to the inside of the ligature where it comes in contact with the top of the mouthpiece. Awesome that I achieved a perfect fit on my favorite Otmar Hammerchmidt. BTW, the reeds I'm playing are Peter Leuthner Wiener Schnitt number 8 and Canyes Xylema Viena E+, AW model 232 4+ (discontinued), and Alexander Pilgerstorfer CAD 5 and Solist 5. I have not made my own reeds in a long time.
My play test with the Luyben yielded a better result than playing the Hammerschmidt(s) with their stock (Klingson?) metal ligature. The comparison with my old Rovner Dark also proved successful. In every case, the Luyben ligature allowed the best vibration of the reed. I've known of the Luyben ligatures for years but it wasn't until now that I needed to grab a pair of a piece of plastic, scissors, and gorilla glue so I could evaluate what I'm sure will become my standard setup.
Thanks Paul A.!
---------------------
Ronald V. Vazquez
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Author: graham
Date: 2021-05-08 23:36
One of my three Luyben ligatures is on my e flat mouthpiece. It screws down to that size (but only just).
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