 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ben
Date: 2004-10-07 16:10
I know this is a clarinet BBoard, but I figured some people may also double on sax. So, I hope this question is not too out of line.
My dad purchased a Mark VI Alto in about 1954 or so, played professionally for a few years, and then quit music. He always took great care of his instruments and although it has been unplayed for about 50 years, it is as good as brand new. Not even the laquer has been damaged, as he always wiped it off after playing.
I am having the instrument overhauled to make sure it is in perfect playing condition, but when I get it back I want to sell it. It is a great instrument that should be enjoyed and played, and I want to stick with just the clarinet, and could use the money, too.
Does anyone have any ideas what it may be worth? Also what may be the best way to sell it? I have thought about ebay, but perhaps there are better ways?
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-10-07 16:14
I would offer you $1500 for it. (You could probably get more for it, but I'd pay you quickly).
No overhaul needed.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-10-07 16:37
Ben, I love my M VI, and have made recent comparison with the "best" Leblanc [model 100?] and its Vito counterpart, which were in competition back in the 50-70's. Its still my best/easiest sax to play well on. I found mine at a "low price" and wouldn't part with it for several times that. A [true] sax PRO offered me a lot, but M6's trading prices are still on the rise!! An expert, knowledgable saxplayer/repairman, when I took him a friend's Super Action model, [the M6's early {RARE} predecessor, worth many TH Bucks !!!], for check-up and advice, suggested exploring value with JoeSax [in NYC?] and with Wichita Band, where it is now awaiting a well-to-do foreign buyer. There are quite a few sax traders on the web, if you ask, have the serial # available, and be prepared to discuss condition, partic, that of the "original laquer" . Be careful, it is valuable. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2004-10-07 16:38
This sounds like a fabulous horn in excellent shape. Mr. Blumberg's response should give you an idea about the sort of response you can expect.
If it is in that good shape, you could place an ad just about anywhere and get responses. Suggestions:
- You can advertise it on this board.
- If you are a member of the AAFofM, you can advertise in their monthly newsletter, which will give you a wide distribution, at some cost.
- You might be able to sell it on on consignment through a reputable music store near you. I would do this only with a good recommendation from a trusted friend.
Regards
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-10-07 16:45
Yup - don't sell it to a dealer as they will give you dimes on the dollar.
I've seen them go from anywhere from $3500 to over $6000 depending on the individual playing properties of the instrument.
But I still would have given you $1500 for it 
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Author: Ed
Date: 2004-10-07 16:47
These instruments are VERY desirable. Jazz players love the old VI's. If it is in the condition you describe, you can sell it for quite. I have seen people pay $5000 for a vintage horn in great shape. You can search ebay to see what people are selling them. Also look on the internet for sax shops that deal in vintage horns to get an idea. Some places to try might be:
http://www.robertoswoodwind.com/
http://wichitaband.com/
http://www.worldwidesax.com/
http://justsaxes.com/
http://www.saxgourmet.com/home.html
http://www.saxquest.com/
I cannot vouch for any of these places, merely places to begin. You might get someone who deals with these instruments to do an appraisal for you. Some places will be happy to sell on consignment, but you should be able to sell it on your own no problem.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-10-07 18:21
Ralph Katz wrote:
> You can advertise it on this board.
No you can't; I damn near deleted the top post of this but there were too many child posts attached already and I didn't want to blast all of them. It's an "almost ad" and ads aren't allowed here.
You can post in the Classifieds on the site. That's where ads belong.
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Author: hartt
Date: 2004-10-07 18:58
Ben
I'm sure you will have all sortsssss of offers.
I've 4 altos. Unfortunately, none are MK Vl, but 2 approach equalling the sound.
I'm not pushing eBAY but many BB users search it for clarinets. Just go to Musical Instruments, Saxaphone, Alto. Type in Selmer.
If you search open / completed auctions, you will realize they sell for or over $3,000.
Another place is the SAX FORUM. There, you simply register and can read / post questions, items for sale, etc.
http://www.saxontheweb.net
A new, unplayed on O/H is a major plus.
Of course, as with most anything, condition is everything.
Laquer wear, dents, dings, scratches, original case, etc.
Also, the s/n impacts value. The early ones (like yours of 1954 ??? mfg) are more valuable than the later ones from say the early 70's. (production started in 1955......see below)
Above all, DO NOT get it relaquered. It changes the tonal quality and reduces it's value considerably !!.
Ones in primo conditon with virtually no laquer wear, dent free have gone for $4,000 +.
good luck !
regards
dennis (:o)
BTW, there are 2 schools of thought as to why Selmer discontinued the MK Vl.
One being that the eqpt used simply wore out after 20 yrs and it didn't pay to refurbish it.
Secondly, the brass used in making the MK Vl's (which gave it it's unique tonal color) was depleted. Deleted because the brass Selmer used was WW2 shell casings left on the battfields of France by Uncle Sam. This latter posture is well known in the sax world and even documented .
The MK Vl was produced from 19665 - 1975.
The first 10 yr's s/n production are:
57000 1955
62000 1956
66000 1957
71000 1958
76000 1959
81000 1960
90000 1961
94000 1962
103000 1963
110000 1964
120000 1965
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2004-10-07 20:56
There is a site called (ironically) Sax on the Web. Check it out.
Also, Theo Wanne, the famed sax mouthpiece guy has a site you can search. And the classified on this site often hawk saxes, bassoons, and other related products.
This is a valuable horn, altho' there are many other good ones out there.
Blummy, I see you and raise you a buck...or a hundred. ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2004-10-07 21:42
I was in high school when Selmer introduced the Mark VI line. The older players put them down, saying that nothing came close to a Cigar Cutter. I'm sure that when the Cigar Cutter was introduced, everyone was nostalgic for what came before.
My high school immediately bought a set of Mark VIs (probably on a special deal) -- two altos, two tenors and a baritone. I fooled around a lot on the baritone, which was the best sax of any type I've ever tried. They were probably junked along the way, along with a great Conn bass sax, several Heckel bassoons, Loree oboes and Haynes piccolos (which all the flutists played in marching band).
Good luck in getting an outrageous price for your dad's alto. With the money, you can probably get a soprano/alto/tenor/baritone set of Kielwirths, Yanagasawas, Buffets, or even Selmers.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-10-07 21:54
He's truly lucky that his dad took care of the instrument. So often the older instruments are so skanky that I wouldn't come within 20 feet of them.
And the smell gives it away
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Author: William
Date: 2004-10-07 22:39
Hmm........Personally, I'd take a "smelly" old Stradivarius any day. And that is what MKVI's are to many serious sax players these days. However, I too remember the old "cigar cutters" and the reputation they used to have when the VI's first came out. I think that there always will be a mystique and longing for the "good old days", even if maybe they weren't really so good. You are lucky to have a currently "desirable" instrument--but some sax pros that I know are currently touting the new Yanigasowas (spell??) as superior to anything they have every played. However, don't tell that to David Sandborn, a Selmer Mark VI devotee who reportedly has 15 instruments within ten serial number digets of what he considers to be the "perfect" Mark VI. (apparently, however, he must think they weren't ALL good ones).
My personal alto sax is a Selmer Balanced Action--for which many of my old college sax major friends offered to trade me their new MK VI's back in the sixties. Fortunatly, I was tempted but did not "bite". My old BA plays just the way I need it too and is, therefore and forever more, Not For Sale or Trade--just as your Selmer Mark VI should be to you.
Play and enjoy the music!!
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Author: pzaur
Date: 2004-10-07 23:22
Ben, if the Mk VI is in as excellent condition as you say, you should be able to find a very nice selling price for it. They do have the reputation for having an extremely high selling point (Ridiculously high if you ask me). Personally, I would never buy one. I find the new Series II and Series III to be a better horn. But, it's all about personal taste. (bore size, metal alloy content, lacquer...)
About getting an overhaul...
Be sure that when you do get it overhauled that you don't have the wrong type of pads put in. The resonators that Selmer used, if my memory serves correct, for the VI's are plastic. If you get pads with metal resonators, it will change the overall sound/character of the instrument.
Also, don't let your repair tech drill in "adjustment" screws for the lower or upper stack. This may be a huge time saver for the tech, but many people look at that as a detraction to the instrument. Any competent repair tech should be able to adjust the sax correctly without the additional help of screws. Newer Yamahas come with them, but my current Series II doesn't. That was purchased in '99. (After I sold my VI to pay for it. I got tired of 30 year old mechanism. It also plays better in tune!) To my knowledge, Selmer has not begun to add adjustment screws for the lower stack. That may have changed recently...dunno though.
The serial number of your sax will play a large part in price. Different serial numbers (example - 56XXX vs. 225XXX) tend to sell for different amounts.
Just my 2 cents.
-pat
Post Edited (2004-10-07 23:22)
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Author: hans
Date: 2004-10-07 23:32
Ben,
IMO your MK VI in pristine condition is a very valuable instrument.
I own a MK VI tenor (cost around $700 Canadian about 30 years ago - a gift for my wife who quit playing soon after) and a nine year old alto (a super action 80 MK II); the tenor is easily the superior instrument and not for sale at any price. $1,500 is just a modest downpayment for your horn.
You may develop an interest in playing alto sax later. In your position I would sell a kidney to raise money and keep dad's sax.
Regards,
Hans
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Author: ron b
Date: 2004-10-08 00:01
Keep it, Ben. Its current value is about eight thousand (U.S.) dollars. In five years or less you might easily get ten thousand dollar offers. Of course, if you're looking for some quick cash, you already have some of those offers.
Best wishes for whatever you decide to do.
- r![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif) n b -
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-10-08 00:35
They weren't all good ones. The quality is said to have significantly deteriorated in the 70's.
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Author: hans
Date: 2004-10-08 02:17
"The quality is said to have significantly deteriorated in the 70's." is a rumour perpetrated by people who don't own one.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-10-08 02:44
There were good and awful Mark VI saxes produced in each year from 1954 to 1973. Just like clarinets, there was a lot of variability within the same model.
Some players do think that certain serial numbers were better than others, due to the quality of the metal used.
When I bought my Mark VI, I tried a few that were higher and a few that were lower in serial number than the one I finally purchased.
It eventually comes down to a personal decision based on what feels and sounds right ...GBK (owner of a 1970 Mark VI tenor)
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2004-10-08 02:47
Got my Mark 6 tenor in 1961. Almost mint laquer. Smell?.... no way.. and the original leather pads are supple.
This is the Rottweiler* of horns.....That means....it becomes what you make of it.
Soft and cuddly or mean and nasty. Your choice
Lenny Picket on Sat. Nite live blows it apart each week with his Berg Larsen 130/0 and Vandy Bass clar. reeds.
Me? Mellow, slightly breathy....Plas J or Stan G style (I wish) but I can punch out R and B with just a little more effort.
I once stood next to (and certainly in the shadow of) the great Paul Desmond. Guess what sax was in his mitts?
My friend, think long and hard before selling that horn.
*no doggie flames here....I've owned two rotties, and they were sweet and friendly.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-10-08 11:19
Alseg - Plas plays a synthetic (plasticover 1 1/2 ) reed these days with a Berg Larsen metal MP. I asked him why and he said "I'm just too lazy these days to work with the cane reed". He can make anything play! (he's over 70 if I'm right about his age and still going strong)
(Plas is the "pink panther" Sax player in all the recordings and Mancini's Saxophonist). He's my favorite sax player. Plas (I'll bet nobody knows this one) was the Piccolo player for the Rock song "Rockin' Robin".
Plas put out a new CD about 3 years ago titled "Christmas in Hollywood". Amazon doesn't have it but CD Baby does http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/plas3
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Author: Ed
Date: 2004-10-08 11:58
"Hans - wrong, that's more of a well known fact than an opinion."
In what way did the quality deteriorate? Is the intonation worse than those of previous years? Workmanship?
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-10-08 12:49
Materials? Tools used to make it changed?
I don't personally know. Can only speculate.
I posted a thread in a sax forum asking them what they thought about it and personal experiences.
I'm doubting that it's the intonation that will mostly be the reply - my guess is the response and sound that changed.
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Author: hans
Date: 2004-10-08 13:22
David,
Re: "Can only speculate"...."my guess is"
You've certainly done a great service to this BB by sharing your "guesses and speculation".
I'm looking forward to more of your tales of melting clarinet bores.
Hans
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-10-08 13:43
The melting clarinet bore was a joke - maybe you didn't get it.
Post Edited (2004-10-08 13:48)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-10-08 14:03
What an interesting discussion of our GREAT horns. My OLD M 6 tenor is my son/grandson's hands, I've INSTRUCTED them to NOT !!! sell it. If they should need money, just let me know ! I bot it for $250 at a pawn in Lansing MI back in the 60's, in very bad shape, but with a PRO $400 overhaul , the lacquer was so bad that Jay DeGeer [Tulsa] HAD to re-do it , it still plays/sounds fine, but I'm small and just better on the alto. If anyone is interested in "set-screw" Proliferation, my Leblanc ["Buck Rogers", M 100?] alto, having fork fingerings available for almost every note !! has nearly one on every key, and a book of tune-up instructions for techs, start at bottom and work up !!, which I keep with a copy of Leon Leb's US Patent #3,136,200 [for future generations, its RARE and good also !] . Selmer has several pats also on their BA, Super, S Action, M6 series, development [from back in the ?30's?] which is well discussed in "The Brass and Saxophone Book". I believe its still available from B&N, Amaz, Walden etc, inexpensive ! Gosh, how I go on, but I enjoy our exchanges greatly. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: hans
Date: 2004-10-08 14:06
David,
What you don't seem to get is that I visit this board to learn from others and to share, what I can, from what I have learned in 45 years of playing clarinet and sax to help others. I am optimistic in thinking that I may also have "met" some very fine people and made new friends
Your opinions of my instruments (you seemed eager to denigrate the 1970s MK VI for some reason when the only mention of it had been my posting...), etc., and your combative attitude matter about as much to me as the insect that met its end on my windshield yesterday - merely annoying.
Hans
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2004-10-08 14:21
Unless you are planning on holding onto the horn for the pure sentimentality of it all (an important consideration with family heirlooms, to be sure), I'd sell the thing (and expect to get a large portion of the actual inflated Mark VI price for it in the condition that it is in), bank the money or purchase something that you need, and consider it a good deal for both sides of the transaction.
I've read stories of "a market for Mark VI collectors", vaguely alluding to "Japanese collectors" who bid up the price and so forth. I've also played Mark VI horns (tenor, alto, soprano (when it wasn't cool) and the equivalent models of baritones) for years at a time. I never felt that the "Mark VI" sound was worth the increasing price of admission, and with the advances of brands like Yamaha (and the in-place wonders from the classic Conn era) that paying a premium for a Mark VI was worth the effort. Better that you be achieving whatever else you aspire to with the money, and that some other person who will play the horn will satisfy his/her itch by purchasing it, than for you to "sit" on a horn you won't play just because "It's worth a lot!"
I'm of two minds about the classic Selmer saxophones...
On one hand, I love the Selmer keywork. I've tried a lot of horns over the years, and my gold standard for how a horn feels remains the old Mark VI (and the baritone equivalent of same). There's just something about the way the keys are laid out, touchpiece height and action feel that makes for a good "feel" when playing a Selmer horn of most any post-1930's vintage.
LONG DIGRESSION FOLLOWS:
(Six month's time back, I wandered through the local mega-music store's horn room while at the place to purchase a sub mixer. Normally, there's nought there but Buffet clarinets (lots of them), student horns, and the usual array of soprano, alto and tenor horns. However, this time was an exception that they had a Selmer low A baritone sax, a student horn that is probably produced somewhere on the Pacific Rim for pennies on the dollar. (The asking price was in the neighborhood of $1,300 or so...definitely not Mark VI equivalent territory.)
(Not being one to pass up an opportunity to try out a baritone horn, I went out to the band van and shifted enough cargo to get to my bari case to fish out the mouthpiece and the shoulder strap. Once back in the tryout area, I hitched it all up and again felt the marvelous feeling of a Selmer horn under my hands. (These days, I'm playing Yamaha and Conn baritones and vintage Conn horns for the little ones.))
(Prior to playing the first note, I was in heaven. Those who have never had any other experience with the low notes on a large sax other than on a Selmer horn will not know the huge amount of torque that gets shoved into your arm by the little finger left hand. With the Selmer "flap" keywork, you've got the extra leverage offered by the low Bb key "flap" system, which makes for fast transitions and such.)
(Then I started in blowing. The horn was absolutely ATROCIOUS in the intonation area, with adjacent notes not in tune with each other, and the octave even wilder still. Some of it might have been due to pad height and such, but the pads all sealed up fine so it is unlikely that it was that much out of regulation. Still, after just coming from three hours of play on my YBS 62 (which is very well in tune with itself, thank you), it was like being subjected to acoustical torture.)
(I only fiddled with it for five minutes or so, but it was a very odd sensation, playing on what felt like a typical Mark VI equivalent baritone (the keywork was a direct copy, if my previous Selmer horn was typical of the type) but sounded like some poorly assembled furnace ductwork with a kazoo attached to same.)
END OF LONG DIGRESSION
On the other hand, I think that I obtain a better "sound" from either a Yamaha or a Conn horn. Some part of this is the horn, of course, (perhaps as much as 10%) but most of it is due to the mouthpiece and reed combination (maybe 25% or so) and the rest of what is going on 'north of the mouthpiece'. And, as those vehicles of saxophonic type are a lot cheaper than the classic Mark VI ride, I'm pretty comfortable with the difference.
Your heirs and assigns will thank you for selling out at a good price...something else to consider when you're thinking about holding onto a "museum piece" solely for the "value" in same.
I have watched Antique Roadshow for years in the vain hope of seeing some classic saxophones dragged across the table. ("It's an excellent piece. Do you know how much it is worth?") Haven't seen one yet...just a lot of guitars...
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-10-08 14:48
Hans, my posting had zero to do with your posting at all.
Read your posting and see that there would be no way I could know that your Sax is from the 70's AT ALL.
As for "combative attitude " you look at your postings and see that you are the one in this thread that's being "combative".
So don't go there.
And your posting:
-----------------------------------
"Author: hans (---.sympatico.ca)
Date: 2004-10-08 02:17
"The quality is said to have significantly deteriorated in the 70's." is a rumour perpetrated by people who don't own one."
-------------------------------------
So why do you think that the prices are almost always lower for the 70's models than the 60's?
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-10-08 15:05
TKS for a very learned and appropo "digression/dissertation", Terry. Yes the left L F plateaux is perhaps Sel's major accomplishment. Its been copied by many, including the Bundys and Vitos, so the "kids" dont know what pain we had back then. Yes, I've thot long and hard about "cashing in" my sax chips, but as long as the BW lets me buy, like my recently acquired Selmer [only a USA, dern it] Omega Bb cl, I'm content to keep, and one kid[maybe 2 more] have in effect, dont sell, I/we want them. I also borrowed [they wont sell either] once a Sel 6 Bari, and a Conn [16 {12?}] bari for pit work, both fine horns. A friend has an OLD King [their best then] alto which he "knows" and loves. GBK, you may need to "rein us in", rite? This is, a WW, but maybe not brass, BB ! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-10-08 15:35
The answer given to me by Steve Goodson is
Different bow
slight change in mechanism
different neck tenon
Goodson to the Sax is what Backun is to the Clarinet.
I wouldn't really care about the change in mechanism, but the bow and tenon would make a difference.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2004-10-08 16:03
Ralph Morgan, who worked for Selmer maybe forever, said that the best Selmer alto ever was a pre-Mark-VI model (the Balanced Action, maybe?) that appeared to be missing a key, which was operated by an automatic mechanism.
Don - I remember when Leblanc put out it's insanely complicated alto. You held a right hand finger down, and it lowered the entire left hand by a half step. They claimed that this made many impossible passages simple. The model came and went almost overnight. Obviously the learning of a new set of fingerings was too much of a chore, and with that many extra rods and levers, the key action must have been a bear to operate. You're lucky to have such a rarity. How does it play?
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-10-08 18:36
Rite y'are, Ken, actually, at this time, my Vito [version] of the BuckR, plays a bit better than does my [downright beautiful] Leblanc, but both play quite well ! I pull them out of the closet every now and then and "tinker" with their playability, it IS a challenge. Of course, all "standard" fingerings work well, so like the "modified cls, one can use any extras he/she likes .
Will take it, with its "paper", to Jay D G, since I want the best repairer [retired] I know, to "keep at it", he knows about them ! The point you bring up, Ken, makes me wonder if there were not some communication/exchange with Mazzeo re: the forks, and his [M's] other ideas for cl "revision" ?? Still thinking about it all. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2004-10-08 20:41
Don -
I dunno. Mazzeo is gone, and I'm not sure whether Ralph Morgan knows anything about it. I think your best bet would be Sherman Friedland, http://clarinet.cc/, who was a Mazzeo student and still plays his instruments. He probably knows more about them than anyone.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2004-10-08 22:21
Super Balanced Actions are great, but all things are subjective. I agree that all MK VI's are not equal. I had a MK VI tenor that played horribly. I was young at the time I bought it used (1974) and was thirlled to get a "good deal". It didn't take me too long to figure out it was not as good as my alto MK VI (1968). I gladly sold it for a profit and bought a Buffet Superdynaction which plays wonderfully.
jbutler
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Author: Igloo Bob
Date: 2004-10-08 23:49
Though I'm not extremely knowledgeable on the MK VI, I've heard the new (roughly) Reference 54 Saxes are supposed to be virtually identical, and for once it's not just company hype, but a lot of good players (from my perspective, at least, as I'm only a beginner in the sax world) are telling me the same. The Ref 54 Alto is being sold around $4000, the Tenor a few hundred more. It does, however, have the reputation of being a jazz-only instrument, though the guys working at Selmer deny it.
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2004-10-09 12:05
Another 'fishing expedition'...
Jeezit, how hard is it to look on eBay?
Sell the legacy, buy a nice modern Taiwanese alto (Antigua winds are nice) and pocket the difference. Even the best vintage horns have mechanical problems.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-10-13 22:28
Dennis,
Your Mark VI numbers may be a little off as I have an alto from 1954 with a serial number of W53XXX.
HRL
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-10-13 22:38
Quote:
In your position I would sell a kidney to raise money and keep dad's sax. Funny you should say that. I was thinking about selling a kidney to afford buying a new clarinet . . . . . or maybe even selling TWO and then I can afford a Bb/A set! . . . . ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-10-14 00:28
Lance,
IMHO for a Reference 54 to be for jazz only is like an R-13 to be for classical only.
HRL
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Author: Igloo Bob
Date: 2004-10-14 02:33
Mr. Lehrer - Do you own/have you played a Ref 54? Just curious. But yes, for what my limited knowledge/opinion is worth, I would agree with you. I would think that with the right mouthpiece/ligature/reed combo, one could play classical music on just about any Sax.
Post Edited (2004-10-14 02:41)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2004-10-14 10:39
A freind of mine has a Ref 54 Tenor. He used to play only jazz but now he plays only classical music. Igloo Bob, I've never heard of that reputation.
David, another friend of mine had a Mark 6 alto from the "bad" era and it was one of the better saxophones. Unfortunately he wasn't able to sell it for that much because of the "myth".
Post Edited (2004-10-14 10:45)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-10-14 11:33
Lance,
No, I have not played a Reference 54. You are right about the MP and reed combination. When playing jazz or commercial gigs on the alto, I use a Meyer 7M mouthpiece and when playing classical, use a Van Doren V2 or an old Selmer short shank C*. Both mps take the same reeds pretty much so I am lucky. The sound is completely different.
However, with respect to the clarinet, I use the same setup for jazz as classical. On my Mark VI tenor, I use a Guy Hawkins 7 for jazz but for legit and classical use a Selmer E or a Bob Dukoff hard rubber with a fluted chamber.
HRL
PS If I had to buy a new sax quick, I'd drive 2 hours over to WWBW and try Yamaha Pro models. Excellent price, wonderful ergonomics, and a great big sound; a wonderful value. If I had a longer time, I'd hunt for a The Martin sax, an SML, a Buescher 400 Top Hat and Cane, or a King Super 20 followed by a repad and possible overhaul. I'd at least try the Reference at that time.
Post Edited (2004-10-17 11:43)
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2004-10-14 16:11
One of the major problems with "this brand/model over that brand/model" comparisons is that it's very hard to come up with a "field" of different horns with which to compare any one other horn.
I'm a big fan of the "full Boehm" clarinet, and I have urged others to at least consider that option when making a purchase. None ever do. Why not? The main problem is, just how do you obtain that horn to make the comparison?
Many of those who "down" a particular make or model are often working from second hand information at best, and often at third or fourth removes. Some teacher reads in a book (which itself may be second or third hand information) that the Albert "system" horn isn't suitable compared to the "Boehm", passes that information on to his/her students, and presto, "everybody" knows that Albert clarinets aren't as "good" as a Boehm. Ditto the German system horn (which is in many ways just an "improved" Albert).
However, I'd venture that not one in a hundred of those logged into this board have even held an Albert or Oehler horn in their hands, much less played one. Listen to a recording by a German symphonic group, and I doubt that you can fault the quality of performance that you hear coming from the clarinet section. Lazarus' style and tone were acclaimed by one and all, and he did it all on an Albert horn. Yet, "everyone" knows all about the Albert and Oehler horns and how the Boehm is superior? How about, "everyone" (that is, up to the 99th percentile)_doesn't_ know about them?
I've loaned my "full Boehms" to close friends on occasion, but a Series 9 isn't exactly the most current acoustic version of the clarinet, so there are issues with the comparison at the very start. Then too, when I'm around other musicians, I'm usually already engaged in playing my clarinets making them mostly unavailable for others to use.
(And, for the record, no one has ever taken me up on the offer of loan of an Albert or Oehler "system" horn, not one. And only a few have been willing to try and play my Conn "artist model" alto from the 1920's. Whimps and candy-asses, I tells ya...)
Truth be told, once you get outside of the whitebread "17/6" clarinet, you're unlikely to find even one horn that is more fully equipped. Inventory, sales patterns, and other "real world" factors make it so. Thank God that some manufacturers have finally seen the light on the LHLF Eb/Ab lever, or you'd not even have that option open.
And, the more pricey the instrument, the fewer the likely choices. "Trying out a group of clarinets" is an option open to most of us (with a line of credit and a few connections); "trying out a group of bass clarinets" is much less so. Call Selmer and ask them to send out an assortment of bass saxophones on approval and see how long it takes for the laughter to stop issuing from the earpiece...
(When I picked out my first new baritone in the dark distant days of the 1960's, I made the trip to the Selmer fountainhead and got to select from a field of three. (All felt functionally the same, so it literally came down to the least scuffed case of the group...selection criteria of the first order.))
When I bought the alto and tenor back in the dark ages, there were literally dozens to choose from. Ditto the soprano, and that was back in the days when soprano wasn't cool. But, I've never seen more than three new "pro" baritones in the same trial room. Only one bass clarinet outside of the manufacturer's facility.
I did get to try two very well used Conn baritones up at Evanston once. Both sucked (and stank, as in reeking of mildew), but I though that I had entered some sort of twilight zone to have two of them in the same room at the same time.
Saxes and clarinets I've not played but that I really, really, REALLY want to play someday, if only to understand how they are different/better/worse/whatever:
Martin sax (the "good one", in baritone)
Couf sax (any model; I did see one once; weird looking big assed tenor, but the prissy owner didn't want anyone else's hands on her horn)
Buffet sax (any model)
Selmer clarinet (Centered Tone)
Until I do, I'll not venture any opinions on same. But that others would use the same criterion when making their judgments...
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2005-09-29 14:10
Hi,
I'd like to elevate this thread again as I have some new observations on the Mark VI saga and on one of my last posts.
I'm playing a lot more gigs lately and am finally in a position where I can afford to have backup saxes (backup clarinets I have). I have been lucky and my Mark VI alto and tenor have always worked just fine but if I had a problem with either, I'd be dead in the water since local techs are quickly disappearing.
Anyhow, about 20 years ago (between a BA and my current VI) I had a Yamaha YTS 61 and really liked it but could not afford two saxes. Now I have a few extra coins so I picked up a nerly-new Yamaha YTS 475. All I can say is wow!!! This is a Yamaha intermediate tenor and after using it on a couple of jobs plan to search for a YAS 475 or a 62II as an alto backup. The YTS 475 is a little lighter than my VI but gives up nothing in intonation and has a huge voice. The altissimo just pops out.
I've even considered selling off all my Selmers (I've got a Super 80 soprano) and going with Yamaha saxes. I'd pocket a nice piece of change and have new instruments that really play well.
I wonder if in about 2030, will current Yamaha pro saxes become as coveted as older Selmers are now?
HRL
Post Edited (2005-10-14 18:05)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-29 14:50
I bought a brand new 875EX alto (in preferrence to the 82Z which I tried the week before) just over two years ago having had two 62s before that (an early one with the better thumbhook and a 1987 model before they changed the bell logo), I think it's one of the first of the new Custom models to hit the UK shores and I can thoroughly recommend them.
I'm also toying with the idea of getting the 875 tenor as well (to replace my 62 which works well having been repadded), but I'm definitely sticking with my 62 soprano and bari, if they ever bring out a Custom bari then I'll be in line for that - I don't like the new 62 baris that much, they're cutting production costs and quality on these from what I've seen, I've got a 1990 model and I think this was from the better era looking at earlier and later models.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2005-09-29 16:05
Sell the Mk 6........on ebay is good.....try for 4 to 5000. I did own a late mk 6... it was OK.... used a 7 for 25 years.....louder and heavier.... in the last year came across a 6.... bought it and then fell out of love with it...and sold it. Recently bought a King Zephyr....now there's a horn! John
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-29 16:11
I'd love another King Super 20 alto (one that HASN'T been relacquered!) - the proper HN White one with the pearl key touches, silver crook with double socket and bell keys on the right hand side. What a beauty, shame the one I used was a relacquered one.
I didn't like the Super 20 baris all that much.
Probably a late Selmer SBA tenor or early MK VI, and a Conn X-bar bari if I can fit Selmer or Yamaha mechanism onto it.
My Yamaha 62 soprano is a beauty, and better in my mind than the newer 675 and 875 ones, though I do like the way they've sorted the high C# out by not having any extra mechanism there.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-09-29 16:17)
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Author: clarinetist04
Date: 2005-09-30 00:06
I didn't realize how lucky I was at my old high school...we had a quintet of VI's. Bari, tenor, two altos, and a soprano. When played by decent players, those horns sang!
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2005-09-30 01:02
Yanagisawa........
A good King Zephyr is hard to beat. I've got a pretty nice Buescher 400 alto as a back up. My MKVI tenor was a real dog...some were good, some were bad. I got a nice Buffet SuperDynaction tenor that plays very well.
jbutler
Post Edited (2005-09-30 01:03)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-09-30 09:33
I bought a copper bodied Buffet S3 Prestige alto hoping it would be as good as the S1 - it plays nicely in tune but it's a bit too 'polite' for big band use - not enough 'shout', plus the fact it's using Keilwerth keywork which isn't all that comfortable, and pretty utilitarian in comparison to the S1 - but better than the S2 which used a lot of Jupiter parts.
I do like the Yanagisawa 992 bronze bodied saxes, but I don't like their baris - the mechanism is bendy, not as bendy as Grassi or Orsi or Taiwanese baris but I think the Yamaha 62 mechanism has the best keywork I've seen, though they could lower all the RH key touches (moving them down the body) like a Selmer SA80II to make a super bari.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-09-30 11:54)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-10-01 12:33
Oh dear! I've got a brand new SA80II alto, and you know what? I really like it!
I've just been comparing it with my own Yamaha Custom and both play and project very well (this is THE best set-up SA80II I've seen!) - but the Selmer does have a bit more warmth and texture to it's sound (using my Lawton 7*BB) and this is now troubling me - I am now tempted to buy it for myself!
Where does it go from here - do I end up going over to Selmer after all the years of slating I've given them on their build quality? It does seem the Selmer has more to give, but I will have to do some keywork alterations (in other words - bending things here and there) to make it more comfortable for me.
I'm doing a gig this afternoon, and I might put it to the test. There's only one way to find out....
Right, I played it yesterday and found it a bit of a struggle tuning-wise and had to put more effort into it than I do with my Yamaha to get both the sound and volume I want. And I didn't like the feel of the RH C and Eb keys, couldn't slide directly up onto the front F key with LH finger 1 as it's too far out the way (set too far/angled too far off to the right as you're playing) and the RH cross F# key was uncomfortable to use - I kept catching the pointed edge with RH finger 3 when I used this key.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-10-03 07:57)
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Author: nickma
Date: 2005-10-21 20:39
Chris mentioned the S1 is rather better than the S3. Any more info anyone?
I have just bought an S1 tenor. It was owned for a year or so by a Buffet Recording Artist who was a wind player in the Opera Garnier in Paris. Because he was given a hand picked instrument by the factory for each new model release, he had several saxes and clarinets.
He gave this one to a family member, who played it a few times and put it away. I bought it from them.
It plays and feels like a brand new instrument, and the lacquer is 99.99%, with just a spot of corrosion on one of the bow joins, and 3 specs of corrosion on the engraving. Other than that, you'd think it was new. It is fluid, quiet and beautiful.
Can anyone tell me why these S1s were better than the S3?
Nick
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-10-21 21:34
The keywork is much better on the S1 as it's all proper Buffet designed and built (which is what I like about them above the S2 and S3), the keywork is very well designed and pretty extensive compared to other saxes (but nowhere as complex as a Leblanc) and the RH C and Eb cluster can be rotated to suit your little finger - but the only thing I don't really like is the fact the bell is soldered on instead of clamped. The sax player with Spandau Ballet used a copper-bodied S1 tenor on Live Aid back in 1985 - the jammy git!
The S2 used a lot of Jupiter parts but has the same body as the S1. These were being built around the time just after Jupiter started making the Buffet 'Evette' models (student-level saxes), but the S2 wasn't a great success with hardcore Buffet players - gone were the special keywork features of the S1 - the S2 was more basic in design.
The S3 has Keilwerth keywork, pillars and fittings, a detachable bell and the body is still true Buffet. I just sold my copper-bodied S3 Prestige alto this week. The neck on the altos has a noticeable bulge just above the joint.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-10-21 21:48)
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2005-10-21 23:56
OH, MAN.
Selmer Mk VIs.
I used to teach sax, and my boss let me use his MK VI tenor and alto with my students --an occasionally to play when I sat in for him at a gig. Those (1961) instruments were so perfect that they allowed me to play music instead of "saxophone."
If your fingers got to the keys, correctly, the Mk VIs played the notes. They were wonderful. Harlem Nocturne? Try to play it on one of those horns AND NOT CRY over the sweet, sweet sound. Rudy Weidoft's Saxophobia? Play it again, faster!
My fresh Muncy-reincarnated Buffet full Boehm reminds me of those great saxes; it plays that well.
Its sad to now have to worry that an eBay '70s MK VI might not be as virtuous as "my" 1960 horns.
Bob Phillips
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Author: nickma
Date: 2005-10-22 08:13
Thanks Chris, very interesting. Sounds like the copper bottomed one is the ultimate. I'm really glad to have found the S1 in such nice condition.
Nick
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2005-10-22 12:13
Hi,
But as I said in an earlier post on this thread "I wonder if in about 2030, will current Yamaha pro saxes become as coveted as older Selmers are now?"
This seems to be the pivotal issue since there are no more Mark VI being made (although Selmer has come our with several interesting reference models) so we are dealing with a known and defined parameter. As good as my Mark VI tenor and alto are, to me the Yamahas has a definte edge in projection and the intonation is just about perfect (and the price for one with all the whistles and bells is modest).
I guess a parallel would be are newer clarinets better than my classic clarinets (L200, R13, Series 9*); is a 1956 Ford TBird better than the technologically advanced but soon to be out of production current T-bird; and is the 8086 laptop that is somewhere in my closet worth using? Does technology trump traditional values? We are not talking Strads here, right?
This could be a whole new thread (sorry Mark C. and GBK).
HRL
Post Edited (2005-10-22 13:06)
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Author: saturnsax
Date: 2005-10-22 22:57
Actually with mark VI saxophones, they might as well be strads in the eyes of most saxophone players. I personally have several saxophones and only one a mark VI. That's my tenor sax and It is unfortunately a late 60's model with some value but it isn't the player i was told it was. Not all VI saxophones are great and many are just average that can be beat by most pro model saxes made today of any brand.
My VI is like yours except my uncle was the origional owner and like yours was a closet queen. He gave it to me for a graduation present since I was going to college to play sax. It looks brand new and plays well but any guardalla tenor will just kill it in sound, tuning, and playability. My VI is still mostly a box queen and it only comes out once every couple of months for a checkup and take it out to make fellow sax players envious. When I went to college, I thought I had the best tenor on the planet until I played on some new saxophones. If you want to get rid of It and It's in good shape, I've turned down well over 5k for my tenor since I know it will be worth twice as much in 10 years. I keep it for sentimental value and the honor of saying that I own a Mark VI.
Post Edited (2005-10-22 22:59)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2005-12-24 16:33
Hi,
I'd like to write my final entry on this thread and tell you briefly about the NOS Super 80 alto I got recently on a well-known auction site. A beautiful instrument that had been purchased in 1982 or so and then never played. I did have to have a few pads reseated and then away I went.
The price I paid for this beauty was about the same as I would have paid for a new Yamaha 62II and I think I got much more saxophone for the money. I am switching between a Selmer Short Shank E and my trusty Meyer 6M mouthpieces and both work fine. I have found that a VD V2 and a Berg 105 0 M can make this baby really sing as well.
As good as my Mark VI? Actually better but I am still learning more about the new alto every day. Easy response in all registers including the altissimo. Good ergonomics, yes.
From the SOTW site I learned that this model, since replaced by the II and II is thought to be a more classical instrument. I have had no problems playing all styles.
Funny, I never though my coveted Mark VI would ever be a back-up!
HRL
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-24 17:11
I prefer the front F on the SA80 saxes - it's a round pearl like on the Mk.VI and previous Selmers and is in a good, easy-to-get-at position unlike the SA80II altos which is bent round so they can get the high F key screw in, and too far away from where you need it to be.
But Yamaha front F keys (not the 21 or 61 series as these are like Mk.VI) are very simple in design, but effective - exactly the same principle as Holton and Selmer 'Adolphe' saxes.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2006-03-02 00:55
Hi Again,
Two posts above, I said that "I'd like to write my final entry on this thread..." It looks like I fibbed.
Recently, I took my Super 80II soprano and Mark VI to Eric Satterlee at Meridian Winds in Michigan (my VI had not been adjusted for many years). I told him what I thought the probelms were and he said "I usually just start looking at the instrument and fix things as I go."
About two hours later. the VI plays better than ever and is back as #1, my L200 has 6 new pads and a whole new life, and my Super80II is better than new.
I guess my point is that before one gives up on any instrument, get it into the hands of a skilled tech, have he or she do what is needed, and then decide.
Thanks, Eric.
HRL
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Author: Ben
Date: 2006-03-03 02:42
For anyone curious, since I started this posting a long time ago, I was able to sell my dad's sax on Ebay a couple months ago for about $8,000. I had over 100 people watching the auction before it ended and received many emails from all over the world! The winning buyer is very happy with the instrument and appreciates it for the rare gem it is; so it was a good deal for both of us.
[ A reminder to all: As Mark had noted above, this thread was not originally deleted because there were too many posts already attached to it. However, all items for sale always belong in the Classifieds and not on the bulletin board - GBK ]
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-03-03 06:09
$,8000?!?! Just the tax I'd have to pay for it could get me a new professional model alto sax!
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2006-03-03 15:57
OUCH,
Thanks, Ben, for the update
And to think that I just spent several hours in the car with a colleagues' MK VI Soprano sax with original lacquer and everything.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Wes
Date: 2006-03-04 05:23
Once you properly surfaced the tone hole edges and made sure that the pads had enough shellac under them, the MKVI became a fine instrument. I suspect that the early rejection of these instruments by some people was because of the condition of the pad application and the tone holes. All of the ones I own had these problems.
Some people believe that the longer you play these instruments, the better they get because of "work hardening" or stiffening of the brass due to vibration. They just seem to sound better as time goes by.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-03-04 07:10
Anyone know what value a MKVI tenor in gold plate with silver plated keys is worth? The seller is looking for around £3000 (GBP) for it as is, and £3500 overhauled - though I wouldn't let the seller do the work as I know what a pig's ear of a job they do.
I think the gold had a copper flash on top to make it a deeper colour, but this has dulled down over time, and the only plating wear is from the usual spots where the body rests against the player's leg during playing. The engraving is sharp and was done after plating, and darkened nicely showing up all the detail.
It's a 13k serial number, still with the older pad cups (round sided), but with the ball-and-socket side Bb and C connectors.
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