 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: Critter
Date: 2005-10-07 13:21
I'm a semi-professional oboist and teacher. I play a Yamaha 841T which is an absolutely fabulous oboe. I'm incredibly impressed with the intermediate Yamaha, the model 411 (recently replaced by the model 441). I'm telling you, I could play the intermediate Yamaha at a gig and (as long as I don't get into trouble by not having the keys needed to do a couple of specific trills) only someone who knows my playing very, very well would notice any difference at all.
I've been wanting to buy a second oboe, as a back up instrument for those occasions when I or one of my students send their oboe off to be serviced. The intermediate Yamaha (in all Grenadilla) is what I've been had in mind to buy, but I was wondering how the Buffet 4052 compares; I've not had occasion to play one. Is anyone out there familiar with both of these oboes who can give me an idea how they compare?
Thanks!
David Crispin
www.CrispinsCreations.com
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2005-10-07 18:48
... so really, what's the diff between intermediate Yamaha 411 and 441?
Think keywork's still the same, low B-flat (no vent) and LHF, so no fingering changes there. Yamaha info says tone-holes are undercut like on the professional (800 series) models ... but what does that do for the oboe and how is that better for intermediate student playing?
... have found 411 sounds much fuller in tone if reeds are just on the flat side of C-crow, at least for my sharp-inclined embouchure. Was told the culturally trained ears manufacturing this model prefers a lighter and brighter tone ... meaning pipe's pitch favours sharper rather than flatter ... ergo, it's more of a challenge for yours truly to lip down enough (or use flatter reeds) to play this model in North America's cultural preference for saxophone-like warmer and fuller tone.
Do under-cut tone holes automatically darken the sound in the pipe?
Now that my embouchure is beginning to settle down into a particular shape, and feels most comfortable within certain range of movement for the longest possible time, it seems more important to minimize the work i have to do to stay in pitch more readily, so if pipe construction physics contributes to that, and some oboe models are automatically warmer and darker anyway because of the way the pipe is made, that seems like an important consideration when looking for oboe of my own?
So in your opinions, which makes/models tend to be significantly warmer and darker overall, and which makes/models significantly sharper & brighter?
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Author: sömeone
Date: 2005-10-08 03:41
My oboe for the past 2 years before i got myself my DM was a Yamaha 411,
it's a fabulous oboe i must say, and i myself think it is actually quite dark in tone! Well, i won't be able to compare them with my expertise, but i can assure you that the new yamaha 441 is gonna be one of the top intermediate models out there. I have actually played an intermediate Buffet before, but that was the days when i couldnt even play a decent long tone. Haha...sorry about that.
There is one thing though, vboboe, sharper does not mean brighter, and nor does the other way around. (it is largely affected by means of embouchure, posture, reeds etc.) The yamaha is modeled based on a very large span of oboes, and they are quite experienced. Because their research is oriented in Japan, with most of the experts coming from America (most Japanese professional oboists are actually American style players, with variations of their own of course), their instruments are designed to sound good with the American reeds. While not to say that yours saying that the Yamaha sounds brighter is wrong, it's like i always say, a very personal thing. The reeds which i use now does not work too well with the Yamaha anymore, since i've accustomed them for the Loree. So there are many factors to consider. I think the intonation issue might be because in fact, the Japanese manufactured oboes are mostly made in 442, but i don't think that is a very big factor to consider, when slight adjustments can be made to reeds and i aint too sure about the oboes made in American by Yamaha. (and aint it possible to ask them to make them in 440?)
I don't think undercut tone holes will darken the sound. Their function is to improve intonation, not so??? ??? North American prefers saxophone like and warmer sound? As long as it projects well and has good intonation, i think it is going to be a good intermediate instrument. Tonal issues are just too personal to cling on to too much. I thought that's like German...haha....well anyways, just my insight into this. Good luck in choosing that instrument... (Not gonna consider Fox?)
Howard.
p.s. concerning Yamaha, the Canadians on this board will die to tell you how good they are, just post a new topic titled YAMAHA and a swarn of deadly professionals will go in and persuade you with all means to buy one.
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2005-10-08 07:35
Helpful insightful & presumably knowledgeable comments re Yahama, thanks
pros & cons
... intermediate model Yamaha 441 or Fox 330 suited to student, or get more advanced other model right away and grow into it?
Can't discuss Buffet rationally or sanely, as Buffet's not on my list of more advanced other models, rhymes with tuffet, which makes me hum the nursery rhyme little miss muffet, eating her curds and whey, yuck, and the spider which sat down beside her ... yikes ... and that links to another silly song, there was an old lady who swallowed a fly (etc) ... mental musical associations matter when it comes to oboe preferences !!!
... the Yamaha 441 (model number surely isn't directly related to actual A pitch since they do 800's too ???) would be very convenient to order and economically buy locally, irrespective of pro Canadian recommendations (thanks, eh?) plus current playing experience with 411 has lead to fondness
But, getting a Fox 330, would have to order from further away, same country, across the winter frigid great white north (death to plastic) with additional postage & handling expenses, and there seems to be some problem (tongue in cheek) with soaring fuel costs due to some natural disasters south-side recently, so it makes sense to get Foxy sooner rather than later ...
Yamaha is wood, and i love the feel of wood, but sound in wood is a significant variable, and my ears aren't experienced enough yet to have distinct preferences. But, Yamaha isn't as thick as some other models, and has a bit of a nasty rep for cracking, sooner rather than later
Fox is plastic which i like for durability. It makes sense to have a rugged dependable and relatively fuss-free backup oboe which is likely to outlive a thin-wall wood
... so, be sensible sez me, buy such an intermediate model first, then get a more advanced model in thicker wood much later when i'm ready for more labour-saving additional keys and alternative fingerings
... and by then also able to air-support a richer, darker sound in the upper register for a whole page, not just a few bars
... not to mention support a heavier oboe altogether
... seems somehow disrespectful trying to play a pro oboe with inadequate embouchure or air-support and um, largo eighth note fingering flexibility
... are there enough years left on my life's timetable to delay this decision?
Teacher thinks plastic is a toy oboe, would sniff if i don't play wood and wouldn't take me seriously thereafter, too many grey hairs, no future career prospects, uh, like, have eager younger student, no time available
Band master doesn't care, he wants all the correct (beep) incindentals in sixteenth sequences in A-flat or D-flat in tune with good tone at minimum 120 syncopated rhythm, within three rehearsals, play ball or strike-out, sticky keys? mal-adjusted screws? crashed? too bad!
Fox's case has a generous accessory slot for the basic extras always need to have with an oboe
... but, Yamaha barely has enough room for a reed case let alone any accessories
It's a catch 22 situation {:-/
Sigh ... maybe it's not up to me ?! Maybe Perfect Oboe will find me when it feels i'm ready for it ?! With that kind of indecisive buck-passing, may as well stick to renting!
Another shorter topic ... brighter doesn't equal sharper, well, theoretically agree. It's more to do with delivery, agree. Semantically guess i need to revise my terminology for greater accuracy in communications ... feel free to elaborate on the diffs, OK?
Great learning tool this board :-)
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2005-10-08 14:09
David C. --
I'd like to ask you why you are considering using an intermediate instrument for your pro backup.
Maybe it is the cost factor?
Why not try a used [fill in the brand name] professional instrument as your backup?
I just know that, in my case, my Yamaha 411 doesn't sound anything at all like my Covey Classic. The Covey is a "lighter," if you will, "more flexible" sound. It is lovely and sweet and rich all at the same time.
The Yamaha 411, by contrast, is thicker, heavier, more *pesante*. To my ear, it is a less-sophisticated sound.
So, I'm just posing this question, because I personally would like to find a backup for my Covey that sounds more like the Covey. And I wonder how much the 411 (441) sounds like the 841? I always thought the 841 was a little on the lighter side.
The 411 is definitely heavier sounding.
Susan
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2005-10-08 18:08
... yeah, i'm out-of-body totally weird just now, must have something to do with side-effects of building up my abs, lung & brain tolerance to holding my breath a second or two longer today than yesterday before breath exchanges while struggling to reshape embouchure exactly on the right spot again after letting go to breathe around the reed, and also maintain many bars of beautifully shaped adagio l-o-o-o-o-o-o-ong tones on this ... (polite smile) so-called musical instrument
... may the force be with you too!
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Author: Dutchy
Date: 2005-10-09 17:01
<<< Fox's case has a generous accessory slot for the basic extras always need to have with an oboe
... but, Yamaha barely has enough room for a reed case let alone any accessories >>>
Just want to say that I think it sounds a trifle...odd...to be choosing an oboe on the basis of what the case looks like. Isn't that kind of like choosing a car on the basis of how much junk you can fit into the glovebox? :D
Get a tote bag or a briefcase to carry the junk. Pick your oboe on its artistic merits, not on irrelevant side issues.
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Author: sylvangale
Date: 2005-10-09 21:49
I would never buy a car that didn't have at least three cup holders in front and were sized well enough to handle a large drink. :op
I had a Yamaha 211 and the case, while nice, really only had room for a single reed. It is certainly worth an extra $100-200 to get a roomier case. I love being able to keep cork grease, spare cloth, swab, and reed knife in the actual Oboe case.
On the topic of Yamaha's...
The 211 and 411 had an older "student bore". Yamaha's 241 and 441 are supposed to have the same bore as their professional instruments, but just lacking keywork.
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2005-10-10 00:18
.... hmmm
... your suggestion 'in another bag' took awhile swirling around in my brain, and finally gelled into what might be a really good idea, eh?
(i do prefer wood oboe but the inadequate accessory storage issue had me drac biting with a vengeance)
Idea 1: could get a different kind of case COVER with a zip pocket for basic accessories
Idea 2: could get or make a simple slim-line zip purse to hold accessories, to go on lid of closed oboe case inside Yamaha's present case cover
... hey, yeah, maybe #2's my solution! Thanks!
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2005-10-10 03:19
<<Idea 1: could get a different kind of case COVER with a zip pocket for basic accessories
Idea 2: could get or make a simple slim-line zip purse to hold accessories, to go on lid of closed oboe case inside Yamaha's present case cover>>
[snip]
Or, you could get a nice laptop case, pull out some of the padding, and have yourself a GREAT oboe gig bag that will hold even folio-sized music and your reed box, swabs, water jar, blotting paper, drying-up spray, folding floor peg, pencils, reed adjusting tools, wallet, and lunch -- to name most of what I usually tote around in mine.
I think I paid $19.95 for mine at Marshall's. The only thing that would make it better would be WHEELS.
Susan
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Author: Critter
Date: 2005-10-10 04:20
Here's one in LEATHER....
David Crispin
www.CrispinsCreations.com
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2005-10-10 06:58
... hey, great minds think alike, i already have laptop bag aka gig bag to tote oboe stuff
... drying up spray, what's that and what's it used for?
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2005-10-10 14:17
Drying up spray is some sort of gas in a small aerosol bottle with a little straw attached to it. The kind I have is made by BG France. Don't remember where I got it, but I think it is widely available -- like at WW&BW.com, etc.
Here's what it says on the package: "Dries up unwanted water in tone holes and on wind instrument pads."
It works, as long as you can actually get the little straw into/under the affected spot.
However, I learned another (and cheaper) trick for keeping water away from problematic keys (thanks to Susan at OboeWorks in Arlington, VA). I kept having chronic water problems in the register keys and in the small tone holes on the upper joint that are closed when the instrument is disassembled.
Susan suggested that when you are putting your instrument away, make a small shim out of a little piece of folded paper, light cardboard, etc., and put it under the arm that holds the key down. This allows the key to stay open while it rests in its case, and, voila, the water dries up much better. I've been doing that for a week or two now, and my water problems are largely a thing of the past.
Very lo-tech, but at least as effective as anything else I have tried.
Susan
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2005-10-10 14:23
David --
You oboe tote looks great! Nicer than mine, actually! OOOhhh -- I'm getting greedy . . . .
Hey, I forgot to add the tuner and metronome to the list (above) of things I cram into mine.
REALLY need those wheels . . .
Susan
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Author: sylvangale
Date: 2005-10-10 20:00
Hmm...
I just noticed that www.CrispinsCreations.com doesn't exist... tempting Ebay store though.
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Author: absinthe
Date: 2005-10-10 21:02
Sorry but you wouldn't get me to TOUCH anything Yamaha let alone play it. A matter of principle, also sound.
:)
Post Edited (2005-10-10 21:03)
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Author: Oboeman14
Date: 2005-10-18 01:03
I don't know anything about the Yamaha 411, but I love my Buffet 4052. It has a beautiful sound for an intermediate instrument. I highly recomend it as a backup instrument.
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2005-10-18 04:59
... NOW I have seen & tried out the grenadilla Yamaha 441 (essentially same LHF and low B-flat model as 411) the following ergonomic differences are worth noting
... half hole cap & F# caps both have little raised tongues, very nicely rounded off and smoothly finished on the edges, helps prevent slide-off, limits too much rollover for the half hole, and really helps home both index fingers
... right G# is a bit smaller, rounded off tip, easier to use under finger knuckle and doesn't extend downwards as much, so doesn't poke a dent in flesh under 1st finger
... semi-auto 8ve vent mechanism is set to open up both vents a bit wider than on the 411, which hopefully has addressed the second or so stick-down delay in opening 1st octave pad when it got moderately wet
*** 1st octave is rounded off, not pointed as on 411, shorter in length, set a little closer to the pipe, and the key's gradient on the working end is shallower, with all these little differences, it's more comfortable to hold pipe and operate with less thumb movement ***
*** wider, bigger thumb-rest, wow! yahoo! distributes more weight, MUCH more comfortable, major bonus :-) as far as i'm concerned ***
on the so-so side
... half hole is set down very low on this model, barely lifts clear of tone hole, some of us used to high-set half holes may wonder if that's right, darn it, just when I was getting used to doing dramatic finger drops for top D-low D
... has a raised or high cap on the low D key, makes it look more like full conservatory at first glance, but doesn't have split ring mechanism (nor Ab-Bb trill), could be misleading to the marginally informed, but is less strain to reach and finger this key, don't have to move 3rd up and down so far
... otherwise feels & handles much like 441, sounds good!
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2005-11-14 05:13
<<There is one thing though, vboboe, sharper does not mean brighter, and nor does the other way around. (it is largely affected by means of embouchure, posture, reeds etc.) >>
<<I think the intonation issue might be because in fact, the Japanese manufactured oboes are mostly made in 442, but i don't think that is a very big factor to consider, when slight adjustments can be made to reeds and i aint too sure about the oboes made in American by Yamaha >>
OK, mulled over and digested your comments awhile, technically speaking, sharper does not mean same as brighter, agreed. Think i meant brightness in the sense it identifies notes sharper in the pipe rather than flatter, methinks that depends on instrument's cut, tone holes, pads, settings, etc. plus reed and player issues as you mentioned.
Can see how it's confusing semantically, when any in-tune note can also sound brighter (more vibrant) or duller (less vibrant), which are more likely to be reed and player issues than instrument issues ... although a pad or cap set a bit too high does tend to make notes both brighter and sharper, now it's really confusing ... !
On t'other hand, 442 is actually 2 clicks sharper than 440 so if oboe is tuned at 442, it generally tunes on the sharp side with itself, yes?
Isn't the whole idea with reeds to try and make them play 440 with neutral embouchure?
So, with a 'sharp oboe' does that mean it's practical to scrape the reed to crow just a bit flatter than concert C (can't recall tuner frequency number for C), and/or lip down generally with whatever reed one has?
Thankfully as you say it's not that big a difference in real life, but hey, students obsess about this sort of thing ...
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2005-11-14 10:56
Haha......
Now everything is clear enough since you fully understood what i was trying to express...
Well like i previously mentioned before standards are different throughout the world.
A lot of European orchestras adopted the 442 standard and so did most of Japan. Likewise, bands in Malaysia tune in 442 because most of the early teachers who came to teach were Japanese, thus the standard. But frankly i ain't really sure about the current updates. Well if they make it in 442 i guess they will make a reed that crows on A=442 too. But there must be a lot 440 orchestras in Japan too right? Don't ask me. Haha....
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