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Author: JF Clarinet
Date: 2017-04-05 20:03
I recently purchased a set of used Bb and A clarinets online that are <10 years old. The sound on them is absolutely spectacular, and my tutor agrees. However, the intonation on them is somewhat problematic. In general the intonation consistency of both the Bb and the A, the latter of which was clearly not used much, is solid, but both are very sharp. My tutor thinks that these have been blown out of tune. Pulling out at the barrel a fair amount and at the middle a bit seems to fix most notes, but the lower clarion notes aren't really helped by this much at all. On the Bb clarion C through clarion Eb are a sharp no matter what I do, and on the A clarion C is the only glaring problem. I have tried pulling out at the mouthpiece (made the throat tones flat if the barrel was still pulled out, and didn't help the low clarion notes if the barrel was pushed in), pulling out the bell (did essentially nothing), switching to a longer barrel (barely helped), and playing on different mouthpieces.
The Vandoren Cl4 mouthpiece I usually play on has a history of being sharp on most clarinets I have played on, but never to the point where pulling out the barrel hasn't been enough. I tried playing on the other mouthpieces I have sitting around: an old HS* (which sounded terrible and was more sharp) and what I think is a Vandoren B45 with the markings worn off (which was a little better). My tutor let me try a Lomax mouthpiece, which significantly improved intonation on the new set and my other clarinets, but I still had to pull out the barrel some.
What can I do to try and solve this problem? Could different or softer reeds help? Is the instrument actually blown out? Is this something a good technician could help solve?
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-04-05 20:23
Of all the characteristics attached to "blown out" clarinets, I don't think I've heard before of extreme sharpness as one of them. "Blown out" is a tradition that not everyone accepts anyway, and it usually is said to cause a dulling of tone, some sluggishness in response and, for some people, unevenness of the scale within itself. Instruments said to be blown out in under ten years are usually ones that have been played heavily in that time, such the instruments on a principal player in a major symphony orchestra. It doesn't sound as if these have had such hard use.
You don't say who the manufacturer is or what models are involved or how sharp they are. Some instruments are marketed specifically to players in Europe, where many orchestras play higher than those in the U.S.. If the mouthpiece tends to be sharp and the instrument is made to be sharper (or just outfitted with a shorter barrel for those European sales) the additive effect might be problematic.
Naming the instruments and model(s) might get you a more specific answer. Unless you're using reeds that are really too hard for the mouthpiece and biting them into submission, changing reeds probably won't help. Changing mouthpieces might, but you'd have to experiment - there's no guaranteeing the result from here.
Under the best circumstances, you should want to be able to pull the barrel out a little. You need flexibility in both directions unless you want to carry several separate barrels.
Karl
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-04-05 20:31
The vibration of air molecules will wear out the bore and toneholes over time. Air is more abrasive than sandblasting, so this is what causes instruments to become 'blown out'. When they've got to this stage, then they are worthless and should be donated to collectors, but only instruments that are made by the leading makers. I collect blown out professional level clarinets, oboes and cors anglais that are over ten years old, so please send them to me to dispose of humanely.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: JF Clarinet
Date: 2017-04-05 20:56
I did a bunch of research on blown out clarinets after my tutor said they were blown out. The characteristics of what I researched and what you say do not fit with this instrument
The set are both Leblanc by Backun Legacy Clarinets. The seller claims that they were used by Larry Combs in his last few years with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, and the seller used them for a few years after that in a lesser performance group. The A came in very good condition, the Bb had a fair amount of wear, and the seller said that the Bb was used significantly more than the A.
The notes I said were very sharp are between 15-25 cents sharp. Apart from those, most of the instruments are between 5-10 sharp, and pulling out the barrel helps those a ton. I will get specific numbers later today.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2017-04-05 20:57
Chris -
Erm... April Fool's Day was several days back.
Ken Shaw
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Author: JF Clarinet
Date: 2017-04-05 23:26
I checked tuning on all notes that I am likely to come across frequently on each instrument with each mouthpiece, pulled out at both the barrel and middle and also data for not pulled out at all. All testing was done on the MoBa 67 barrel that came with the instruments. The results were better than I expected, but also I feel could still be improved somehow, and when I pulled out in the middle for all tests where I pulled out, I pulled out more than I would like to in order to help intonation more. When I played on my tutor's lomax, I remember it being more in tune without having to pull out so much, but I do not have numbers to back that up.
All of the data is here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10V3vRDx2jbTgjMIgM2XYuczWrWU_YCWMlwas7D4PKeY/edit?usp=sharing
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Author: KenJarczyk
Date: 2017-04-06 05:33
I sincerely doubt the Larry Combs story. Leblanc, yes. Opus, yes. Legacy, no.
Ken Jarczyk
Woodwinds Specialist
Eb, C, Bb, A & Bass Clarinets
Soprano, Alto, Tenor & Baritone Saxophones
Flute, Alto Flute, Piccolo
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2017-04-06 05:54
This could be caused, at least in part, by occluded tone holes. Have the instruments been thoroughly cleaned? Sometimes it's hard to see a buildup of crud in the tone holes. Might be worth investigating. Also check the register vent.
Tony F.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-04-06 12:42
Dibbs wrote:
> How can occluded tone holes make it go sharp?
They will make notes resistant and flat.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: JF Clarinet
Date: 2017-04-06 19:58
KenJarczyk wrote:
> I sincerely doubt the Larry Combs story. Leblanc, yes. Opus, yes. Legacy, no.
I too have doubts about the story as the seller did not give me any evidence other than their word. Also what do you mean by the rest of that? If you mean that he played on Opuses not Legacies, I have seen video where it at least appears like he did play on Legacies. Here are links if you want to see what I am talking about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWewMaGQ4lc
and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWewMaGQ4lc (at 1:58 into the video you can most clearly see the instruments)
On both of these, the clarinet he is playing has the right hand C#/G# trill key that I do not think was on Opuses, and is a characteristic feature of the Leblanc by Backun Legacy and Symphonie models.
Tony F. wrote:
>This could be caused, at least in part, by occluded tone holes. Have the instruments been thoroughly cleaned?
One of the first things I did when I got the instruments was to clean the tone holes. I did find some crud in there, but I tried my best to get all of it out. When I get the chance to bring it in to my technician, I will have him do a more thorough cleaning.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2017-04-07 08:38
" How can occluded tone holes make it go sharp?
They will make notes resistant and flat.
Chris."
True, but in trying to bring the flat notes up to pitch you will cause the unaffected notes to go sharp.
Tony F.
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Author: TomS
Date: 2017-04-07 18:22
I've read that many fine clarinet players, such as Daniel Bonade and Robert Marcellus regularly played instruments that were decades old. It seems that some of the most played Buffets belonging to Mr. Marcellus was constructed in the 1920s.
On the other hand, Harold Wright replaced his clarinets every few years ...
Subject of a long-term objective study? Any hard data on "blown out" ?
Tom
Post Edited (2017-04-07 18:38)
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Author: Matt74
Date: 2017-04-07 20:50
You should continue to try different mouthpieces. Also check the barrel length to make sure it is stock for that model.
It would be a good idea to have it cleaned and play conditioned, and probably oiled. Crud accumulates.
- Matthew Simington
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-04-07 21:00
TomS wrote:
> Subject of a long-term objective study? Any hard data on
> "blown out" ?
>
First, you'd have to come up with a working definition of "blown out." It's a very subjective judgment among players themselves. The researcher would need to define what he or she is looking for in order to form a hypothesis, which would be difficult and would probably invalidate the study for some players.
Karl
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-04-08 12:16
This is a subject I'm interested in. After studying with Hans Moennig I have some strong opinions, but they are mainly geared towards Buffet R13's and pre R13's.
Everything said about Bob Marcellus and Harold Wright are true, complete opposite ideas about horns. I never met Harold Wright though. Bob and many others made sure that Hans took a look at their horns often. Included in this was Iggie Gennusa, said by many to have the finest sound out of the 3. Iggie used the same horns. A 1966 Bb and a 1964 A.
I'm not convinced the horns get blown out. That is a strong word, which I really don't understand. Wood surely changes, the height of the keys change, from cork getting old and the horns getting out of adjustments.
The most common complaint I hear are the throat tones tune sharp. In general that is an easy fix. Maybe 15 minutes.
Now mouthpieces... The bores haven't been right in 50 plus years. Horrible. So we have to get the bores of the mouthpieces right first. Then the barrels. Once this is done the rest of the horn should tune up fairly well. Some adjustments can be made, but I am not a believer in blown out horns.
Here is what happened during the last 50 years. The bores on the mouthpieces are smaller and or tapered wrong, then the bore of the actual instruments are much bigger. This of course doesn't work. It's kind of like putting a French horn mouthpiece into a tuba. Yes I know I went overboard. But you can now see the problem.
JF Clarinet - After the Clarinetfest if you wish to send me one of the horns I'm pretty sure I can get it tuned. The first thing is the Vandoren mouthpiece has to go. It won't work. The bore is too small. It already tunes sharp. Same with most or all of the Zinner's and pretty much all of the mouthpieces on the market. The horn plays sharp starting from a small mouthpiece bore. If you yo the Clarinetfest I'll measure your mouthpiece. I know the bore measurements within less than a human hair and the gauges to measure them. I even have reamers to drill out the bores!!! However I refuse to do this now unless it it is a great mouthpiece and within a few human hairs.
Guy Chadash gets it. He knows the correct bore sizes for the barrels and mouthpieces for the Buffet clarinets. His barrels are very good. One of the very few people in the USA that understands the bore of the mouthpiece and the bore of the barrels, so his horns work and his repairs are done well.
I'd like to check out one of your horns and see whats up.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2017-04-12 16:39
Combs played the Legacy I believe - and have video of him playing Trios with Backun guys at ClarFest.
Harold Wright believed that Clarinets blow out within 10 years.
He was adamant about that - in a recorded broadcast interview he speaks about blowout of Clarinets he plays within 10 year.s
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: TomS
Date: 2017-04-12 17:15
Well ... the bore could change somewhat, depending on the quality of the wood, the weather, the amount of use, how often it was swabbed or not swabbed, the saliva chemistry of the player, the oral hygiene of the player, etc. Also, the tone hole grain gets washed out and require sealing and repair. They keys could get worn enough that they are too loose to remedy, perhaps.
Another factor is that people just want something new from time to time ...
Maybe instead of "blown out" the instruments are more like "worn out".
Interesting to see if the greenline material survives longer ...
Tom
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Author: RKing
Date: 2017-04-12 19:19
There are simply too many variables to think about how an instrument made of a natural material will survive and/or perform over any number of years.
I have a beautiful 1967 R-13 that plays better than my newer R-13. Guy Chadash did the overhaul on it and said the bore was still perfect.
I would love to move to a synthetic instrument for outdoor playing and social awareness. I don't even need the instrument to last 50 years - I won't be here by then. :-)
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2017-04-12 21:10
Here I stick my foot in it.
There are definitely two schools of thought here. My experience with blown-out horns ends with a 1990 R13, which sure acted "blown-out" until Meridian Winds in MI did a whole-9-yards overhaul 6 years ago. It was depressing how well it played afterwards. It is on its 3rd barrel, which is another story. But, this is still my go-to horn to play for dancers.
The clarinet is so acoustically goofy that clarinetists like to believe in geniuses and magic. The player is so involved in all of the conscious and unconscious reactions which are necessary to produce clarinet music, that it can indeed seem like magic, even though it is just physics.
Stephen Fox's white paper on clarinet acoustics shows what we are up against. If you can get past your reflexes to verify what is there, lots of stuff may start to make sense.
Wood ages, but if there is no physical damage, as time goes by, an instrument should continue to respond in the a consistent manner. Wood is not completely stable, and absorbed material from the players saliva can change how the bore dimensions change with specific wood humidity, which is of the most concern. Oiling the wood may help, but you always run a gauntlet between using enough oil to seal the wood and using so much that you gum up tone holes and pads.
My feeling is that if your bore is not damaged, the wood has been treated kindly, and all of your pads are sealing correctly, then your horn should play well, regardless of age. If the tuning does change with age, you had better adapt. Your Bb and A "pairs" probably tune quite a bit differently, so you should already be adapting a lot.
My 4 most-used horns all play well: 2010 R13 Bb, 1990 R13 Bb, 197x R13 A, 19xx Noblet A. The R13 A had an issue recently, and I played Debussy on the Noblet, which was just fine. They are sure different instruments, though.
Paul Schaller is said to have played a big chunk of his career on a pre-war Buffet Bb which used to be his father's. Mr. Schaller was pretty tight-lipped with me about what reeds he used, how he broke them in, and how he handled instrument maintenance. Someone in Ann Arbor owns that Bb now, but I have not been successful in getting her to let me play it, so don't have any direct experience. Another friend grew up as his neighbor in Detroit when air conditioning was not common, and says that Mr. Schaller's playing was determined by how much he practiced much more so than any possible magic.
A good experiment would be to buy 2 clarinets that played as close to identically as possible, use one, and seal up the other one. Then, in 20 years, overhaul them both, and see how they compared. News at 11.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2017-04-13 20:36
John deLancie told me at a summer music camp..clarinets and oboes do not blow out. As far as I know I know of no set of clarinets that are blown out yet..but I do know of clarinets that the wood is so bad they no longer work. Repair techs usually will do a healing bath on such instruments (for a year or more in some cases_ then start back with redoing the key work and adjustment). That being said the repair tech then must retune and shape the tone holes after such a bath.
David Dow
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2017-04-14 01:49
The lower end of the clarion tends to be sharp. What can be done depends on how the 12th below tunes. The register vent also can affect the tuning.
Blown out clarinets loose focus / lack resistance. Of course so do some new ones.
Steve Ocone
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Author: kdk
Date: 2017-04-14 02:28
I've always suspected that a "blown out" clarinet is one that needs too much restorative work to be worth the cost. Shop time for a really capable repair tech can be expensive and new clarinets, especially when compared to oboes and bassoons are relatively low-cost. Hans Moennig, who certainly had a good idea of what could be done to reverse the effect of wear and tear on a woodwind, said in interviews I remember reading that no instrument is too old to be restored.
So, maybe when Harold Wright said a clarinet is blown out within ten years (I actually thought the number he gave was lower), he may have been saying simply that bringing a heavily-played clarinet back up to its original specs was not worthwhile compared to replacing it.
Karl
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Author: donald
Date: 2017-04-15 09:38
I'm not going to add anything to the "blow out" debate, I've commented before and stand by those remarks should they be unearthed in previous posts.
- If the Lomax (probably a Zinner A blank) lowers the pitch a bit, then we can safely say that the (your) mouthpiece has contributed to the problem and a different (Zinner or Vandoren 13 series) mouthpiece will probably help.
- You mention that the lower clarion is extra problematic, so check the pad heights of the lower 4 toneholes. If the pads are quite high when opened you *may* be able to lower them slightly, thus lowering the pitch (it will, of course lower the pitch in both registers). With a lighter setup you'll be able to get the pads lower (without making the notes too fuzzy) compared to a heavier setup- this is quite personal (and, also, you may find that you can adjust your voicing so "too low" might become ok after 30min of scales).
- another strategy for lowering the pitch of these tones is a tuning ring at the middle joint. Ideally, you'll not let top line F be flat, but usually an R13 will tolerate at least 1mm at the middle joint. It may make the middle joint too "rocky". If you have extreme variation in temperature/humidity then avoid using a metal ring (such as the lomax rings). It sounds like you've already experimented with tuning at the middle joint so....
- Once you've got the pads as low are can be tolerated (ie, without the tone going fuzzy) you can take the keys off and line the "topside" of the tone holes to flatten pitch. By "topside", I mean the half of the circle closest to the mouthpiece. As a temporary measure use blue-tack (being careful not to get any on the bore). This works well for TESTING as it is relatively easily removed if you find it's not helpful- or has an unexpected downside you didn't predict. If it works, you can either leave it there or find something else to use as a permanent solution (I've had clarinets with bluetack in toneholes for years with no problems... the former Principal clarinet of the NZSO likewise performed for many years with blue-tack in his toneholes with no problems until a friendly tech decided to remove it without asking). Tape, epoxy, putty, plasticene are all things I've seen in toneholes (your teacher may have his own ideas).
- Find a copy of the Leon Russianoff books, one of them has a chapter on tuning the clarinet that will be very helpful. He has a step by step guide to doing the work I've suggested above, only he says to use cork grease in the tone holes- the only advice of his I've ever hesitated about....
Flat notes are much more problematic to deal with, but sharp notes often can be effectively "helped".
As mentioned above there can be other considerations. I once had a fabulous mouthpiece (a Miller blank refaced by Brad Behn) that made me play ridiculously sharp. If was a fine mouthpiece with amazing tone and response, but for me the resistance encouraged me to tighten my throat in a way that made me sharp. This was ME causing the problem, but as a reaction to my mouthpiece/reed setup. Other players without my flaws were able to play that mouthpiece *in tune*. Likewise, small leaks and stuffy tone holes can sometimes create this situation- you unwittingly "scrunch up" to accomodate resistance etc...
I hope this was helpful.
I said I wasn't going to discuss "blow-out", but one parting shot.... I had an R13 that played amazingly for the first year (in USA and Germany), then in a cold and damp NZ winter cracked and started playing with annoying intonation in the lower joint. Lower reg notes that were previously "a bit sharp" became super sharp, and upper register D/C also became super sharp. At Clarinetfest 2000 Francois Kloc measured the horn, told me that the bore had shrunk and reamed it out for me... bits of black dust fell out on the ground. The problem was solved. Many years later (9 years to be exact) I sold that clarinet to a local teacher who described it as the best R13 he'd ever played (and this is a guy who buys/sells loads of instruments to his students- I'd guess he test plays a different R13 every week). He had no incentive to lie to me about this, though of course he could have been exagerating :-)
At any rate, the bore was fixed, and that instrument had a long life playing in tune with great sound.
Post Edited (2017-04-15 09:54)
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2017-04-15 20:20
robert marcellus also stated to me at a master class in no undercertan terms
"the clarinets I prefer to perform on are quite old but tend to play fairly out of tune after a certan point. older clarinets play with much greater ease and should be sent to tech to be restored:...
after that I did not know what to say but this was quite a surprise..the clarinets he used he said were from the
md 50s
this was at his Banff masterclass in the late 70s
D Dow
David Dow
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