 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: kroboe
Date: 2005-09-30 11:24
I have often wondered what makes people take up the oboe when they could have chosen a simpler life playing a different instrument. The oboe is most often an instrument of choice, not of chance. So, what's driving us? Why should anyone want to play an instrument that is so uncooperative, so treacherous, so translucent to your slightest fault, and so physically demanding that very few manage to keep it up in their older days? Is it true love, or is it some sort of masochism? Or is it just vanity and the wish to stand out and be admired?
Such thoughts inevitably crop up from time to time as you start realising that you have spent most of your life fighting an instrument that is finally and inevitably someday going to win anyway.
Not like a piano or an old cello who will invite you to hum a tune in the evening, whatever your situation. No, the oboe will one day stand triumphantly on the mantlepiece telling you that I won, and you can no longer play me! And if you try I will probably kill you! And you will sit there like an ageing athlete, reminicing your days of glory, perhaps wondering if it was worth all the hardships and the anxiety and the millions of butterflies you have housed in you stomac over the years, and maybe thinking that if you had chosen a different instrument like a tutti-fiddle og something, what a relaxing life you might have had, and that you might have kept your hobby 25 years longer, or till they came to get you.
So, lets have your thoughts on this. Any regrets anyone? Or is the oboe the one and only love of your life?
kroboe
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2005-09-30 14:58
Well, I will jump right in here and start a controversy with the statement that I don't think playing the oboe well is fundamentally any more difficult than playing most any instrument well (except maybe trombone or euphonium or saxophone -- no offense to virtuosi on those instruments).
I think it is largely folklore and mystique-making that insists upon perceiving the oboe as being in a class by itself when it comes to difficulty.
Every instrument has its own challenges and learning curve and plateaus, and the like. Take the clarinet, for example. Back in the day, school music programs started every second girl (me included) on the Bb soprano clarinet. Later, as aptitudes and commitment revealed themselves, some of this horde of clarinetists got "promoted" to the other clarinets and the oboe. So the idea developed that the Bb soprano clarinet was somehow "easier" than these other instruments.
Now, here's the catch: in my school, the ones who got switched to oboe, etc., were NOT the best clarinetists. The best clarinetists were kept on clarinet. It was the "second tier", if you will, who the director was looking to switch. So the clarinet section ended up with a handful of the most talented players, and a bushel-basket-full of the least talented players, while those with moderate talent were moved to the "color" instruments.
You could find the same situation, I believe, in a school orchestra program. No director would move their best violinists to viola.
I was one of the clarinet "elite". I wanted very much to play the oboe, but was told at every turn that I had to stay on clarinet because "the section needs you." So I spent my high school years watching poor Sherry struggle mightily with the oboe (which was probably not the best oboe to start with, and most likely out of adjustment), and thinking, "Wow! That must be a really difficult instrument!"
And in the meantime, the clarinet section sounded AWFUL, with the three or four who could actually play the instrument all on first part, and the eight or ten plodders wheezing away, out of tune and out of time, on second and third part.
So, the clarinet got a further reputation as being the last refuge of weak players, and the oboe got a further reputation as a difficult instrument.
The fact is, it is difficult to play most instruments well, and exceptional players of any instrument are rare. An exceptional clarinetist would also become an exceptional oboist. An exceptional violinist would do equally well on viola, or cello. It's just that at the outset, fewer truly talented folks ever get, or take, the opportunity to play the less-basic instruments.
When, as an adult, I finally got the courage to try the oboe, I was stunned to find out that it was, indeed, no more difficult (and in some regards, easier) to play than the clarinet.
Do I prefer to oboe to the clarinet? You bet your booty! I prefer the sound it makes, the way it feels in the hands, the repertoire written for it, and yes, the enhanced ability it provides to "to stand out and be admired".
But I do *not* think it is one whit more difficult to play well.
Just my experience.
Susan
Post Edited (2005-09-30 15:06)
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Author: rgombine
Date: 2005-09-30 16:15
ohsuzan --
I haven't posted in awhile, so what the heck . . .I'll jump in on this.
I think the root of the perception of the oboe as a difficult instrument to play can be attributed to its long, shallow learning curve. If you are playing saxaphone or flute or (yes) clarinet, you get to a point where your playing doesn't sound like a wounded animal much sooner than you do on the oboe. .
I think a lot of factors contribute to this longer road to "playability". The mechanics and physics of the instrument IS finicky. People are reluctant to lay out a lot of cash for a nice oboe while still a beginner and so get stuck with some sort of dreadful student instruments that magnifies five fold all of the irritating characteristics present in even the best instruments.
And then there are the reeds, which I feel can be a HUGE barrier to "playability", especial if you are a grade school student who is not studying with a professional oboist.
Finally, there is the matter of sheer exposure that oboists face. Most of the other wind sections are larger than the oboe section (at least in band). You've got other comerades-in-arms to hide behind and less opportunity for your mistakes to be trotted out for the world to hear. This provides a safety in numbers to cushion you while you are working on trying to get a more presentable set of chops.
While some people are truly driven to play a particular instrument, I think that most people need to achieve a certain level of proficiency on an instrument to have an enjoyable playing experience. The barriers I have outline, ufortunately, create a "perfect storm" which lead many would-be players to drop out of the game before they reach a satisfying level of proficiency. . . and make prospective players think twice!
Just my thoughts!
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2005-10-02 19:24
Regrets? You betcha!
My oboe's top joint adjustment screws are all misbehavin' today, one little pad above the G wasn't fitting down tight enough on paper, guess who's the BLITHERING IDIOT (thwunk, thwunk) who thought it might be OK to quarter-turn just one adjustment screw?!
Yes, you guessed right, just that one adjusting screw lead to another one ... and then another ... OMG! ... my B-flat's gone, why is that C a B now, why is B-flat and A sounding about the same, G still doesn't play, half-hole D's gone, F# won't play, no F, getting high note squeals of protest ..... ACK!
(Heh! Heh! Heh! the G-Gremlin's really really Gotcha!!!)
I'll have to let this oboe go out to see a repair technician for adjusting properly back again ... no oboe for a while? Oh Boo-boo-Hhoo! WaaahHHH!
(Yuck! Yuck! Yuck! Heh! Heh! Heh! The G-Gremlin's having an absolute side-splitting fit)
... unless somebody on this board willing to help me out here and describe / discuss how to fixit back again ? thwank wu
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Author: d-oboe
Date: 2005-10-02 21:50
The people who regret any instrument didn't practice enough. Simple as that!
Personally, I fell in love with the oboe because there was a talented oboist my school wind band (I was on tenor sax at the time). To my ears, the oboe had such a beautiful sound, and I just had to play it!
I think the folklore that "oboe is harder" can be attributed to nervous band directors. No band director wants to have a squawky oboe in their grade 7 band. They'd rather just have a nice blend of clarinets instead!
It could also be of the nature of the oboe tone. A badly played clarinet just sounds a bit stuffy and out of tune. A badly played oboe sounds really harsh to the ears, and out of tune. A properly played clarinet sounds in tune and is resonant. A properly played oboe sounds in tune and is resonant.
See the similarity?
The whole reed issue is also a nervous band director problem. Some place so much emphasis on strict sound quality (instead of rhythm and pitch) that the student is often afraid to play out and thus support the sound nicely...even on a drab reed.
Any regrets for pulling myself through hellish band rehearsals, holding back tears because of useless reeds, nicking my thumb with that crazy knife, or being told that I'm so sharp it's almost the next semitone up?......
Not one.
Do I regret the feeling of an excellent performance, the applause, the recognition, the feeling of immense satisfaction....
Not at all!
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2005-10-02 22:40
vboboe --
I have the Sawicki book on oboe adjusting, which I have used several times (successfully, it should be said) to adjust my own oboes. It is a pretty dummy-proof method for the American-style (i.e., not thumb plate) full/modified conservatory oboe.
If that's what you've got, and you want to have a go at it, why not contact me via email (click on my name in this thread) and I'll tell you what I can do to help you out.
You do have a screwdriver? Oh, yeah . . . that's how this all got started!
Susan
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Author: Critter
Date: 2005-10-07 14:54
This posting absolutely breaks my heart. The thing that makes it so sad that you feel that the oboe is that insurmountably difficult is that it is so unnecesary that it be so hard to play. The answers to the oboe's difficulties are not something that you are are going to find on your own. You need a TEACHER who "has the ansers". There are SOLUTIONS to ALL of the problems that you guys express here on this forum.
That fact that the oboe presents special challenges doesn't mean that you can't overcome them and make beautiful music on the instrument, what it DOES mean is that you will need HELP from a knowledgable player of the instrument, someone who can see and hear what you are doing and get you going down THE RIGHT PATH to success. Unline the "Yellow Brick Road", the path is not obvious to see and stay on; and unless you have an experinenced guide, you're not going to get 50 feet towards OZ before you get swooped up by a flying monkey.
I truly admire the way you guys have taken on the oboe and your enthusiasm and love for it is wonderful, but you guys could learn to SOLVE the oboe's special problems and progress at WARP SPEED if you would only get help from a good TEACHER. What do I mean when I say a good teacher? Well, here are some absolute prerequisites:
Professionally trained by a fine oboist.
Makes EXCELLENT oboe reeds.
Knows how to adjust an oboe.
Plays beautifully.
Has a real passion for indentifying student's problems and giving them the
answer, or the tools for finding the answer, as the case may be.
Don't think I don't understand the impediments to studying with a fine oboist, but what say we address those impediments right here and now.
1) Don't know who to study with.
One of the quickest ways to find a great oboist would be to find an oboist who plays with a nearby professional symphony orchestra. Symphony orchestra jobs are the Holy Grail of performance venues on the oboe, and landing one of these jobs is the epitome of competitiveness.
The larger the city in which the orchestra resides, the better. The higher the person sits in the oboe section, the better. Ideally, you want to study with the principal oboist, but you may need to find a balance between this and other factors.
And PLEASE, HEAR THAT PERSON PLAY BEFORE YOU APPROACH THEM FOR LESSONS. Does this SOUND like a player who has the answers to the oboe's difficulties??? Do they truly make beautiful music on the instrument??? TRUST YOUR EAR!!!!!!! If you live in the United States, don't choose a teacher who plays with a bright, thin sound!!! That person is probably not going to be able to teach you to get the locally desired dark, warm sound that you will probably want.
Also, ask around to find out who the very best oboists are in the area.
Here's another thing: Being a succesful oboist means more than just blowing the instrument well. With the tremendous esposure and shear volume of solos that the oboe enjoys in an ensemble, the maturity of your musical phrasing is very important. This brings us to another factor in selecting a teacher:
If you are in the USA, find out what a prospective teacher's lineage is to "the father of American oboe playing", Marcel Tabateau. Tabateau not only invented the American long-scrape reed and the American concept of oboe tone, but devised a "system" of musical phrasing which has been studied and spread throughout the world not only by oboists, but other woodwind and brass players, and singers.
Right now, if you are lucky, you can find a teacher who studied with someone who studied with Tabateau. If a prospective teacher (in the USA)absolutely cannot trace his or her lineage to Tabateau, keep looking.
2) Can't afford lessons with a professional.
Can't afford the desired teacher's rates? TELL THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!
I know for a fact that there are local students who are not approaching me for lessons because they know what I charge for a lesson and just can't swing it financially. But what's really happening is that they are ASSUMING that my rate is totally non-negotiable and/or that they would have to have a lesson every week. If a talent and truly motivated student were to tell me that they really would love to study with me I think you would be AMAZED at how accomodating I would be. I know somone who studied with an oboist of monumental stature for very, very little money by getting a drastically cut rate and by taking lessons when she could afford it. You see, in general, the better the oboist, the more passion they will have for sharing their knowledge of the instrument and helping developing players.
People don't seem to realize that a motivated student who practices a lot and takes one lesson per month with a great teacher will surpass a less motivated student who takes a lesson every week, like they were standing still!!!
3) You live in the boondocks and there are no good oboists around with which to study.
MAKE THE PILGRIMAGE to a great teacher. Depending on just how far away that teacher is, make it twice a month, or once a month, or once every three months, or every six months, but MAKE THE PILGRIMAGE to a great player/teacher. Ask prspective teachers if they would be ameanable to anwering questions or giving advice via email and/or phone calls between lessons. If they are not HAPPY to doing this AT NO CHARGE, try to find someone who DOES HAVE a real passion for teaching.
Once you've found your great oboe teacher, you will probably also have found a person who will always be very special to you. CONTINUE to use this and other forums to ask and answer questions; they can substantially augment your knowledge and enjoyment of this fabulous pursuit.
Again, please know that I truly admire your passion for the oboe and your brave pursuit of it.
David Crispin
Jackson, Mississippi
David Crispin
www.CrispinsCreations.com
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2005-10-07 15:11
Well, hang around, David, and become our mentor!
Seriously, there is a little bit of a "blind leading the blind" flavor to this board at times, but it should be said that there are several very capable oboists among us, and from time to time, more experienced folks do check in and give advice.
I've been reading this board since before it was part of woodwind.org, and I am really glad to see that in the past few weeks, the traffic here has taken an upward leap. At last!
Susan
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2005-10-07 17:24
... ohsusan, thank you ... learning how to do new, usefully important things on oboe is no regret at all :-)
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Author: wkleung
Date: 2005-10-07 17:44
I am not sure if I necessarily agree with David's suggestions. WHY must we study with someone with a direct lineage with Tabuteau? Was he the first ever person, or the only person ever, who knew how to play the oboe? There have been fine oboists around the world, I don't think it's wise to worship one and only one player. It will sound equally absurd if one claims that everyone must study with Heinz Holliger or with someone who studied with him, and no one else.
Playing the oboe is about making music, not about following a cult. A big, big problem I see in North America is that the oboe school is not open to other ideas -- anything not American is bad. I understand that playing in the North American style IS the only way to get a job in the USA. But it has more to do with the close-mindedness of the people in the selection process, not with the quality of the players.
One famous (non-American) player once told me in private that the American school is like a Mafia, anyone who doesn't follow it gets wiped out. We should probably reflect on that statement.
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Author: Critter
Date: 2005-10-07 20:27
Sorry, it would seem that I didn't explain my reasoning for finding a Tabateau "descendant" very well. It would indeed be very self-limiting to "worship" only one player, as you say. My posing was quite long as it was and I did not take time to explain that none of my sugestions were to be interpreted as dogma. The criteria I listed for a teacher are all just indicators, the idea being that these indicators would help to compare one potential teacher with another.
Regarding the Tabateau lineage, here's the deal. The plain simple fact of the matter is that the finest AMERICAN players of Tabateau's day studied with him and the players who didn't win the auditions to study with him (free of charge) at the Curtis Institute of Music studied with other people. If you find the finest AMERICAN oboists of the present day, they will all be able to trace their lineage to Tabateau. It has nothing to do with cliques or some closed organization, it is just a fact.
My comments regarding Tabateau were directed only to American oboists and should be absolutely moot to oboists in any other country.
Thanks for sharing your opinion, though.
David Crispin
www.CrispinsCreations.com
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Author: d-oboe
Date: 2005-10-07 22:09
Crispin...
Sorry to burst the bubble...but not all of us want to be principal oboists, not all of us want a super dark sound (we want our OWN sound) and not all of us want to be professionals in symphonies.
Argument 1: "Study with Tabuteau lineage." Nice concept, but worthless in today's society. It is a misconception to think that every player who learned to play oboe in NA will have learned the Tabuteau way. There are many MANY excellent teachers and excellent players who didn't study with Tabuteau or his students. And who's to say that Tabuteau's students are the best teachers? Was Tabuteau really that great of a teacherhimself? Or did he really just change the reeds to make them easier to play, and to sound better?
Who knows?!
I have studied with a few teachers. Lucky for me, they were all excellent, intelligent, responsive, and great teachers...who had great personalities. One of them was a principal oboe. ALL OF THEM taught me things that completely changed my oboe playing for the better. Not ONE of them had ever studied with Tabuteau, or his lineage.
Why on God's green earth would I refuse to study with someone simply because they didn't have the Tabuteau stamp of approval?! It's like the whole Loree thing....they may have been the first to get the oboe design to function well....but now MANY make it function well. (Howarth, Marigaux, Rigoutat....even Yamaha)
Another fault in the argument is that you seem to presume that because you study with a good oboe player, you will get a job (in the states or otherwise)
Untrue! Even if the player studied with John Mack, or de Lancie, there is no guarantee that the player will get a job. Sometimes players who come from even the most anonymous teachers get positions.
I think it's safe to say that if we base our musical achievement on *what we did/had; who we studied with* rather than WHAT WE CAN DO WHEN THE CONDUCTOR SAYS GO then we are bound for failure.
My broken oboe reed's worth...
D
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Author: sömeone
Date: 2005-10-08 03:52
AT LAST....
gotta love saying that....just got some new reeds today...and i must say that i should appreciate any time left in my life to master the art of oboe, won't be able to perfect it, but at least play my own sound and live up to it , and of course enjoy it...havent regreted switching since day 1. I love John De Lancie, but i am not American player to a certain extend. Everyone is learning everything these days....and i don't see the need to maintain yourself on a permanent ground defending a particular style. Arguments will always be welcome method to share ideas. Great board. Haha...cheers!
Howard (gotta practise some long tones....argh.....)
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Author: sömeone
Date: 2005-10-08 03:57
You see......to me the American reed is easy to play when made just like what Tabuteau prescribed, but again there is this personal factor to consider right? I have to agree that long scrapes are much more easier to play than short scrapes, but that also defines the tone you will have and want. I attended masterclasses with a Dutch player, an English player, an American player, and hey, they all taught me stuff that i wouldnt have learned myself, and i am using all of them to my own benefit right now, am i playing a particular style? I don't think so...
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Author: absinthe
Date: 2005-10-10 21:10
"No, the oboe will one day stand triumphantly on the mantlepiece telling you that I won, and you can no longer play me! "
Youre joking! It will have cracked or fallen to pieces by then, or the cost of servicing will get too high. It will be in some garbage heap somewhere. Compared with the violin which I also play, the oboe is hugely expensive to buy, expensive to service and is too finicky. Oboe players have to be fusspots to put up with such a neurotic instrument.
I can see myself ending up snarling "I won, you're too much trouble and life is too short. The bin for you!!!"
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Author: Oboeman14
Date: 2005-10-28 19:12
I have been playing oboe for 4 years. I have never heard of different styles of oboe playing and I'm still trying to learn to play well. Since I'm only 14, will I learn about all of this later? Should I ask my teacher? And the only John De Lancie I know of played "Q" on Star Trek The Next Generation. I am assuming they are not one and the same. Also, I find this board very helpful. Thanks all.
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Author: Critter
Date: 2005-10-28 19:30
Dear Oboeman14,
Styles of playing vary from country to country and even from school to school within the same country. I would not expect most persons studying the oboe to be trained in a particular style or school of playing until they are past high school. The higher the level of your training the more likely it is that that training will reflect the idiosyncrasies of a particular "school" of playing. There are exceptions to this, though.
"Q" on Star Treck the Next Generation was played by John DeLancie Jr., the son of the John DeLancie who succeeded Tabateau both as the principal oboe of The Philadelphia Orchestra and as the oboe teacher at the Curtis Institute of Music.
David Crispin
David Crispin
www.CrispinsCreations.com
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Author: Oboeman14
Date: 2005-10-28 19:37
Thanks for the information, David. I am relieved to find out that I am not "backwards" in my learning process. As for John De Lancie, I guess talent just runs in the family! I wonder if the actor is a good oboe player, too?
Brad
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2005-10-28 21:23
Hey, Brad!
While you're learning and developing your own chops, you still might want to listen to CDs from some of the great oboists, past and present, to see whose style, tone, etc., appeals to you.
It's fun to listen to the same piece as played by different oboists. As you listen, you will discover that some oboists have a "lighter" sound; others are "heavier". Some play with a great deal of ornamentation (trills, etc.); others prefer a more restrained and simpler style. Some absolutely shine on their fast, clean passage work, while others get their "claim to fame" from their shimmering tone and what seems like infinite dynamic control on their long tones.
It's even more fun when you get to the point where you can listen to others' interpretations of things you yourself are playing. What is their tempo? Where do they breathe? How do they phrase a particular passage differently from what is in your score?
Here's a link to site which has some nice oboe excerpts:
http://www.oboistgallery.8m.net/
I've started building my own CD collection. Here is a list of a few of the players I am listening to (in no particular order) :
[I hope others on this board will add their own suggestions!]
John Mack
Alan Vogel
Ray Still
Gordon Hunt
Heinz Holliger
Elaine Douvas
Isaac Duarte
Nancy Ambrose King
John De Lancie
Joe Robinson
Alex Klein
Diana Doherty
All of these except Hunt, Holliger, Duarte and Doherty are Americans, but even within the "American" school, you will find a significant range of stylistic differences.
Educate your ear!
Susan
Post Edited (2005-10-28 21:30)
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Author: d-oboe
Date: 2005-10-29 13:00
To add to Suzan's comments
Listen to anything and everything...even if you don't know the person. There are the John Macks and the Elaine Douvases, but the oboe world doesn't end there. I have found recordings (and listened to live performances) of relatively unknown oboists and have been freshly amazed! Listen to oboists of every school of playing. You will find that despite differences in tone, there is so much to learn from everyone.
d
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Author: sömeone
Date: 2005-10-29 14:33
so true!
I remember posting a list somewhere on this board some time ago....
o well.....what the heck....haha.....here is it again:
Alan Vogel (American)
Don Jaeger (American)
Heinz Holliger (Switzerland)*
John De Lancie (American)*
Diana Doherty (Australia)*
Hansjörg Schellenberger (Germany)
Neil Black (England)*
Sarah Francis (England)
Jószef Kiss (Hungary)
Ingo Goritzki (Germany)*
Paul Goodwin (American, baroque oboe)*
Otto Trnka (Prague)*
Jules Goetgheluck (France)
Han de Vries (Holland)*
Eduard Wesly (Holland)*
I think these cds have helped me so much i really can't deny now that listening really does help you improve A LOT. Recordings are really great and although they might not be the cheapest means to listen to great players, it is by far the most convinient.
*i love all my cds, but these are some players which i particularly favour....
which is almost all of them.....haha....
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Author: oboist
Date: 2005-10-29 20:38
Paul Goodvin- England...
I would add..
Alex Klein-Brazil-USA
Albrecht Mayer-Berlin
Bruce Weinstein -USA, IsraeL
Harold & Ralph Gombergs- USA
Eugene Izotov- Russia -USA
Dudu Carmel - Israel
Fransoix Leleux -France
Stephan Schilli-Germany
..... and many many more
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Author: Oboeman14
Date: 2005-10-30 02:19
Thanks for all of the information. I had no idea that so much oboe music was even available!
Brad
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Author: oboemelli
Date: 2005-11-06 13:56
Hello there,
It is a love-hate situation! It is the love of my life (you could say) and I want to play the oboe forever, but sometimes I hate it so much I cannot be bothered to get it out of the case or play for a week if I am that fussy! I am hoping to keep my health going so one day the oboe won't be sitting on the mantlepiece laughing at how it won, but maybe die whilst playing my favourite tune!
Good bye,
Mel
"People imagine they can reach one another. In reality they only pass each other by"- Schubert.
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Author: Ron Jr.
Date: 2005-11-08 14:50
First of all I am a clarinetist and have never played an oboe.
Yet, I have always found the oboe tone extremely luxurious and have fantasized about learning it. When I chose the instrument that I would play for the rest of my life it was a very difficult choice. But now that I've made my choice, I can't see myself learning the oboe for many reasons:
1. Difficulty of learning a new instrument in general. I know how much time and energy it takes to learn a new instrument. It took me six years to learn the entire range of the clarinet, the scales: major, minor, harmonic, melodic, and chromatic; alternate fingerings, trill fingerings, breath support, reed re-working, music theory, and ensemble playing.
So the most important reason for me not learning the oboe is my unwillingness to go through another round as a beginner instrumentalist.
2. Tone. After a while I do find the oboe's tone too uniform. This is especially true when playing duets. With the clarinet the lower part is in the dark chalumeau register while the upper part is in the clarion register which is bright and sonorous. So duets among clarinets has alot contrast between the lines. Yet they also can come together at any time.
Listening an oboe duet there is less a contrast between the two instruments so to my ear this is less interesting. I did hear a duet with oboe and english horn and that was very nice because of the similar yet distinct tonalities.
So for me the oboe's tone, while something that I love, doesn't have the diversity of tone that I enjoy.
3. Cost. When I think of what I've spent to amass sheet music, reeds, clarinets: Bb, A, C, Eb and Bass. I am frightend to think that I would have to go throught the entire process with oboe, sans the different pitched instruments.
4. Repertoire. I love that the oboe has a baroque repertoire. Granted I have played in ensembles where I've played oboe parts on my C Clarinet, which is spicier than the Bb clarinet, to good effect. Yet the purist in me says that the material was written for oboe and should be played on oboe. Yet again I know that music at that time was often intended to be played on diverse instruments. Hence my dilemma.
But the baroque repertoire that I love so much keeps the oboe anchored in the past. I also like big band and hipper music and I wish the oboe would be more used by musicians. The band, Oregon, being the exception.
So for me the issues of not learning the oboe have more to do with the difficulties, challenges, and time involved in learning any instrument rather than the inherent "difficulties" of the oboe itself. The oboe is a beautiful instrument and worthy of the effort to master it. And like any instrument, if one doesn't want to put in the time and energy, then they will never master any instrument.
Ron Jr.
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2005-11-08 15:06
<<I am frightend to think that I would have to go throught the entire process with oboe, sans the different pitched instruments.>>
Ah, but once you have ONE oboe, it is not nearly enough (just like having one clarinet).
First, perhaps you buy a student model, to test your resolve about learning the oboe.
Then you buy an intermediate, because you really (really!) need that left-hand F.
And after a while, you begin to appreciate the refinements of oboe tone and the responsiveness of the keywork, and you realize you just HAVE to have a Loree-Laubin-Covey-Yamaha 841, etc. etc.
And then you realize that, if you are playing a lot, you need TWO pro instruments -- for the times that one or the other of them is in the shop (a more regular occurrence with oboes than with clarinets, I assure you).
And then you find that you would have occasional usefulness for a Cor Anglais, so you figure you need one of those.
And then you get totally hooked on the Baroque, and realize that an Oboe d'Amore is the instrument of choice, and you don't have one, so you NEED one!
I'm just glad I didn't fall in love with the bassoon.
Susan
(A former clarinetist who switched to oboe and never looked back -- currently at Step #3 of the purchasing process)
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2005-11-08 16:00
Another former clarinetist, and an oboist now too.......i mean me......haha....
anyways.......
http://test.woodwind.org/oboe/BBoard/read.html?f=10&i=1296&t=1290
Kai switched when he was about 20 or 22, and he got into the AYO, founded by Yehudi Menuhin, in 3 years. You really have to simply (sounds simple enough) love it to be able to learn it.... you sound like you love your clarinet more than anything....well said....haha....
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Author: Ron Jr.
Date: 2005-11-09 19:34
A former colleague of mine has a son who goes to a private school in NJ. This school is so "progressive" that in 4th grade, ages 12-13, they start on a musical instrument, double reeds included. The school asked that the parents make sure the students practice 30 minutes a day. The kid confidently chose the oboe, the father told me and I was delighted.
On the first evening, the father heard a couple dissonant notes issue forth from the oboe and then that was the end of his practice. After the third evening of this the father asked his son why he wasn't even practicing 5 minutes. The kid explained that it took about 15 minutes to set up his oboe and 15 minutes to break down the oboe. He said that all of his three practices lasted MORE than 30 minutes.
This kid chose the oboe because of its "difficulty". He assumed that setup time was also included in that 30 minutes.
Ron Jr.
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Author: Oboeman14
Date: 2005-11-09 21:16
LOL! I started oboe in 5th grade and what with all of the quacking and reed breaking going on that first year, I'm surprised I or any very young oboist sticks with it. Well, I'm now in high school, and there is definitely no more quacking, but reed problems never go away! I've noticed that the double reed players always take the longest to pack up- I even had a director compliment me for taking such good care of my instrument. Of course, we miss half of our lunch period by the time we're done.
Brad
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2005-11-10 06:50
yeah! totally identify with setup & packup time!
beginner student playing only a few minutes sounds about right, lips go sore so soon at the beginning, oooouch
first year ... oh wow, it's over, nice thing about second year is stuff couldn't play at all last year seems a bit easier to play this year
... our band's into pre-Christmas stuff now, jolly jingle jingle
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Author: Ron Jr.
Date: 2005-11-10 13:27
The father of this kid realized that his son was going nowhere with the oboe and asked him to choose another instrument. So the kid said the bassoon. The father said the trumpet. The kid loves it, makes alot of noise and especially likes chasing the dogs and cats around with his trumpet. And the father longs for the days when he would hear two or three oboe quacks.
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2005-11-10 13:32
HAHA...that sounds so much like my dad years ago.. even now.... except that it's my oboe who's chasing around them....
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-11-30 02:36
ohsuzan wrote:
> I've been reading this board since before it was part of
> woodwind.org,
That would be interesting, since this particular BBoard has never been anywhere else
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2005-11-30 13:46
<<That would be interesting, since this particular BBoard has never been anywhere else>>
Really?
I thought this was part of the old Doublereed-L at one time.
Wasn't there some transfer of files and responsibility from them to you in the relatively recent past?
I remember trying to subscribe, and nothing happening until it showed up here.
Susan
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Author: oboist
Date: 2005-12-01 19:04
My bigest regret that I did not go to study oboe in Europe....
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2005-12-02 08:26
Haha.....i would really like to listen to your life story, how old are you and where did you study oboe previously?
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Author: oboist
Date: 2005-12-07 18:51
Well..I am 33.I studied mostly in Israel with Solo -Oboist of the Israel Philharmonic Mr. Bruce Weinstein
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2005-12-08 15:07
This world is really huge.... and this board is really international....the Israel Philharmonic is quite famous, so i assume Mr. Bruce must be really good, so you regret because you did not study the style you wanted from Europe?
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Author: oboist
Date: 2005-12-08 17:38
Yes, Bruce Weinstein is fantastic oboist.I would really say that he is one of the greatests ORCHESTRAL oboists ever lived. He's style is unique too.He plays Laubin oboes both Grenadilla and Rosewood.He's reeds are huge in width and scrape is long as a silk-no cuts no windows etc.Reed vibrates under huge ammount of air from the tip to the bottom of the bell!!!
He studied with Harold Gomberg of New York Phil in 70th.I was he's only student here for five years,and now we are good friends.
He is very fine teacher very demanding as well.Before coming to Israel in 1985he has made several finals on audition in the US and was choosen by Zubin Mehta as Solo Oboist for Israel Philharmonic.When the Berliner Philharmoniker came to Israel to perform with Israel Philharmonic they were really impressed with Bruces playing and even considered to invite him to play a concert....
I am really lucky to study with him.. everything i know about the oboe comes from my dear friend and mentor Bruce Weinstein.
About Europe.. I just regret that i did not go for a year or so to see something different. I really like the way people like Mayer and Leleux playing oboe making it so flexible and warm...
I 'll post more later....
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Author: oboist
Date: 2005-12-09 15:16
Well now it's a bit complecated. I have a contract with one of Israeli orchestras, teaching job..... and family:)))))
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2005-12-09 15:18
Haha...now i understand...so the style you learnt...is it a variation of the American scrape? Or is it something else? Because your teacher studied with Harold Gomberg i suppose the sound must be similar with American sound?
Howard
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Author: Shelley
Date: 2005-12-09 17:14
Absolutely!
As I have started to get older (not yet 30, however) I have come to the realization that I will not be able to play the oboe at the level I was at even five years ago for much longer. Physically, it hurts. And no, it's not something you can leave sitting in a corner and pick it up and play whenever.
I've played in many amateur groups and always, without exception, the older the player is, the worse they sound. You can always tell that at some point in their life they sounded pretty good, but as age progesses and practice declines their tone withers away. Not to mention the lack of a good supply of reeds.
So as a result, I've decided that I'm going to take up a string instrument. Probably a viola, as I can haul that around pretty well and people always need violas. I just hope I can "catch up" quickly.
Cheers!
Cincinnati, OH
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Author: sylvangale
Date: 2005-12-09 19:47
Shelley,
There is a little device called a FRED that you can pick up for around $25 that will take away all of the weight of the oboe.
It is quite compact and can fit in many oboe cases (it's like the top end of a fishing pole).
Hopefully you can find relief using such device if you really do enjoy the oboe, but not the weight.
As far as sound goes I quit playing the oboe for around 7 years and picked it up again. It took a couple months before I developed good tone. It takes practice.
Ultimately the more a person practices the better they sound until they get to a point where they physically have no breath support and lose control of their limbs.
Here's a link to th makers of the FRED:
http://www.quodlibet.com/FhredGen.htm
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2005-12-09 21:01
Well, Shelley didn't say WHAT has begun to hurt her while she is playing.
Sometimes my midsection hurts, from keeping it so tight.
I've never had any problem with lips being sore or feeling fatigued -- the legacy, I suppose, of many, many years of clarinet playing.
As for hands and arms -- well, sometimes they do begin to feel tired. But again, for me, the oboe is so much lighter than those big clarinet tanks that I was playing (an Opus and an R-13) that it doesn't feel heavy at all.
And I am more than twice 30.
One of my favorite Robert Frost poems is called "The Oven Bird". It's about a particular species of bird that only begins to sing late in the season, after the freshness of spring and the heat of summer are past, and after all the other birds have gotten weary of their tunes.
The concluding lines go like this:
"The bird would cease, and be as other birds,
But that he knows, in singing, not to sing.
The question that he frames in more than words
Is what to make of a diminished thing."
Many of us who are "late singers" may have had, for most of our lives, the experience of not singing at all. Thus we are spared the invidious comparisons of what we are now with what we used to be.
And we can derive enormous joy from a "diminished thing".
Susan
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Author: sylvangale
Date: 2005-12-10 06:27
Oh dear an Oboe is an incredibly heavy instrument and I certainly faced great pains to develop the endurance to carry a plastic one and then I switched to wood and it was almost more than I could bear. Even though wood sounded so much nicer I played plastic more often just for the shear relief.
And this is coming from many years of playing a solid silver flute. The thumb support that is needed on the oboe is incrediblly painful to develop... much harder than re-developing the embouchure. Coming from a Clarinet you were probably spared such a pain.
Thankfully I discovered those FRED things and I was able to gradually wean myself off to where I could comfortably hold the oboe. It also helps for you to get your fingers in the right places and practice correctly too. Because its support system is pretty much tee-tottering the thumb rest on a stick you can gradually tee-totter more weight to yourself over time.
Of course I'm assuming weight is the problem.
Perhaps the sound isn't as pleasant as she remembers and it's giving her headaches. 
-Piko
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Author: sylvangale
Date: 2005-12-10 07:19
After some thought... I realized Shelley was rationalizing quiting.
So....
1. "I will not be able to play the oboe at the level I was at even five years ago for much longer. Physically, it hurts."
Of course it hurts. Just as much as it will hurt a couch potato to get up and run a few laps at top speed. It could quite literally kill a person. Expect to practice for as long and and slow as it took you to get as good as you were 5 years ago.
2. "And no, it's not something you can leave sitting in a corner and pick it up and play whenever."
That why there are so many breathy flutists and pitchy string players in the world. They don't realize they SHOULD practice and while they aren't in pain their sounds are painful to others. If you at one time played any instrument well... ANY instrument you pick up will be far worse then relearning your original.
You should be picking up and playing your instrument "whenever" at least a few hours a week... more so if you expect to reach a decent proficiency in what is really a new instrument to you all over again.
You can't just "pick up" instruments or you will find you sound like those horrible people that don't practice whether you realize it or not.
3. "I've played in many amateur groups and always, without exception, the older the player is, the worse they sound."
This what happens when those breathy flutists and pitchy string players who continually refuse to practice and AGE. They get progressively worse.
There are many musicians twice your age that are absolutely phenomonal. They make money from their playing and are probably not in your community group.
4. "So as a result, I've decided that I'm going to take up a string instrument. I just hope I can "catch up" quickly."
Good luck on getting your bowing down and nailing a pitch in tune. I've read more tales of string players shattering their instruments to pieces out of frustration than any other instrument. Violins/Violas are designed in such a way that you just want to swing them at something I suppose.
...
Now choose with your heart... not of ease of use.
Stop and spend some time and listen to various instruments. Which truly call out to your heart... or at least which can you listen to without throwing a brick through your radio?
;)
-Piko
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Author: oboist
Date: 2005-12-10 17:10
By saying that i mean: If you talking about modern american school
so not me and not MR. Weinstein-we are non-american players.
The reed style however very similar-long scrape,but on a wider basis, heavy back enables to play espressivo comparable with european playing.
Use of vibrato, constantly changing colore of the tone from mellow dark to bright and warm if needed.
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2005-12-12 06:58
... echo check, oboe definitely needs to be chosen by heart, how else can anybody cope with the (beep) thing?!
... in retrospect ... here's mine for starters, everybody feel free to add their pet oboe peeves, just so we all vent what we're loving so much ...
- 2 feet of narrow pipe adorned with gleaming metal parts, student model, costs way more than student model shinier flute or bigger clarinet to either rent or buy
- mere 2 feet of pipe and gleaming metal parts on ye average oboe can't play two complete octaves for all 12 chromatic notes (ho ho ho chortles bassoon, but have you seen the size of that box!?)
- fixing mechanical oboe problems costs a bundle and always takes longer than you've got to wait
- can't get all the labour-saving keys, new, under Cdn 6K
- hold your breath and duck under water, that's the best quacking noise you'll get for months, or years if you're an unlucky duckie
- nobody warns us that you need ironman abs to play this tiddly piece of pipe, post-partum matron, wot abs?!
- nobody in the audience can bear to watch that mugshot, LOL, that's why we're in the middle hidden behind the conductor
- new oboes need tweaking the day before you open the box
- good luck trying to find a good rental replacement oboe while your beloved's in hospital
- oboes in their prime time are quixotic, they're seasonally and diurnally adjusted to je ne sais quoi
- old oboes need tweaking all the time fore and aft and during play
- one eighth turn of any adjustment screw is the beginning of interminable sleep deprivation
- oboes have tone holes and invisible extra whistle holes which vent whenever they squeak like it
- oboe sounds OK while humming to itself, but gets very irritable when playing with other instruments, can sing first tuning note perfectly but thereafter sing-sings various notes off pitch just to be ornery
- average commercial reed costs 3-5x more than ye average clarinet or sax reed and gives up marley's ghost 6-10x sooner
- reed tools are a stock market investment, except the knife, it's already a bear
- once capable of playing longer periods of time, single reed gets too wet and collapses, need to rotate several of 'em to keep having fun
- yesterday's reeds have been a-round, all of 'em afterwards are second time laid flat
- after getting the knack of blowing the reed beautifully, you discover your intonation's off, way off
- all reeds aren't the same and their variable harmonic frequencies need different lipping techniques
- reeds have prima donna attitudes, they sang the high register yesterday but balk today, and yesterday they wouldn't sing low but today that's all they'll do
- just while you're gently reshaping your wet, played reed for storage, it splits
- your best reed which sounded great yesterday died before the concert today
- 4 single knife scrapes in each quadrant to gently ease the blend and too much wood's off already
... your turn, people, add yours!
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2005-12-12 11:43
I dunno, vb. I think you have covered it all. Especially the part about the reeds splitting for NO APPARENT REASON!!! (Just whacked another one this weekend.)
I have a bassoonist friend with whom I sometimes play duets (a different person from my teacher, also a bassoonist, with whom I often play duets and with whom I shared a recital program).
Anyway, when I go to my bassoonist friend's house, we practice in her basement room, which is always *cold*. Which my oboe does not like. It gets rheumatic and asthmatic and wheezes and gurgles the whole time. I try to explain to hmy friend that the size of the bore opening at the top of my instrument doesn't leave a lot of room for condensation. Show her the size of the weight on my bottom joint swab, demonstrate how this tiny lead bullet will NOT go through the top of the instrument. She is duly impressed, and turns up the heat, but comments that oboists are lucky to even be able to swab. Bassoonists can't. And she gurgles, too.
To compensate for the downtime caused by Esmerelda's annual/semi-annual vacations at the oboe spa, I am seriously contemplating finding a second good oboe. I've already sold my best clarinet to help with this acquisition. Gotta figure what's going to go next. The 411? My old R-13? My first born?
Ah, I feel your pain.
Susan
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Author: Shelley
Date: 2005-12-15 19:12
I've tried Fred and didn't like it. I've tried Kooman thumb rests and while it did provide some relief it wasn't enough. I've tried different doctors, and nuthin'.
The pain that I get is in my shoulders and my back, not to mention my poor thumb. My shoulder "buzzes" and I have to beat it with a hammer to make it feel better (okay, I don't really beat it with a hammer; but I'm sure if I did it would feel better.) My back feels so tight when I am playing that I'm certain a disc is going to pop out and nail the bassoonist behind me, and my thumb aches like I hit it with the aforementioned hammer. Also, I seem to be predisposed lately to graying out while playing. This hasn't happened since...oh, the last concert I had! I didn't stop b/c I knew the conductor would kill me, and luckily he cut off b/c I fell over.
I'm not really rationalizing quitting, just taking up a different instrument. Sixteen years so far on the dumb thing, isn't it time for something else? Like, the harmonica?
Heck, I'm a student at a major U.S. conservatory and the others in my studio live and breathe oboe. I'm just more cynical about it b/c I've seen so many great players end up doing nothing relating to their instrument b/c of well- the bane of us all- money.
Thanks for letting me rant.
Cincinnati, OH
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2005-12-15 22:06
Hi Shelley --
It sounds as if you are really in pain!
Since you say you have sought medical tratment, I'd just like to ask if any of them have suggested the idea of muscle spasms in the shoulder and back brought on by tension and stress. Maybe a masseuse could help?
Your body is definitely trying to tell you something -- like, "Quit whatever it is you are doing here!"
I get horrible, painful back spasms whenever I have to deal with my mother-in- law, which I have come to believe is God's way of telling me to get her to MOVE OUT of my house.
From everything I have heard and read, you probably have got it right about the money issues in professional music. Especially classical music. I compromised, and worked for about 20 years as a full-time church music director. It paid well enough, but it was gruelling hard work, and completely ate up my nights and weekends, in addition to many of my days.
I was a literature major in my "first" life. Got an M.A., qualified for my Ph.D. But to this day, I cannot sit down and read poetry or a novel. Just can't. I have no desire to read anything more complicated than "Reader's Digest".
Sometimes, it really IS time to let go.
Best wishes to you.
Susan
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2005-12-16 07:56
Shelly writes << The pain that I get is in my shoulders and my back, not to mention my poor thumb. My shoulder "buzzes" and I have to beat it with a hammer to make it feel better (okay, I don't really beat it with a hammer; but I'm sure if I did it would feel better.)
My back feels so tight when I am playing that I'm certain a disc is going to pop out and nail the bassoonist behind me, and my thumb aches like I hit it with the aforementioned hammer. Also, I seem to be predisposed lately to graying out while playing.>>
... um, Shelley, 'scuse me, the pain you're experiencing sounds very much like it just possibly might be
-- bad posture, shoulders too hunched forward and sitting tensed up in playing posture too long
-- wimpy muscle tone, general muscle weakness, lack of upper body fitness
-- oxygen starvation
-- muscle-nerve stress as direct consequence of all above
Quick fix stretches -- consult a fitness expert for specific stretches you could do to unkink your trouble spots during intermission, or in subtle ultra-slow mo, during any rest breaks in the music
Ergonomic adjustments to your seat or the way you sit?
General fitness routine? Need toned core muscles, upper body and aerobic capacity. Swimming's great, really helps stretch and unkink your spine, firms up everything, works out arms & shoulders, fantastic!
Thumb can be strengthened with squeeze-ball exerciser, both hands, fingers and wrists get stronger, will make it much easier and more enjoyable to manage instrument, try it to believe it, you'll be totally amazed at the difference!
Grey-out (oxygen starvation) = not breathing properly for oboe -- surely after 16 years you've not forgotten or overlooked #1 essential air support strategy for this instrument ... 'purge' breathing (rapid deep exhalation to automatic reflex inhalation) ?
Are you doing your 'purge' reaths frequently during the music, so you can get rid of all that built-up carbon dioxide? That bad air will really grey you out ... and, also build up pain in your oxygen-starved muscles too!
Let's assume that's definitely not you. Then there's another strong possibility that comes to mind -- mild to moderate anemia, iron deficiency very common among women. Anemia could underlie most of the debilitating aches and pains you're having and especially the grey-out. Anemia also affects you psychologically, it sneaks up on you, makes you want to give up doing things that require strong air support or physical activity ... blood test?
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Author: sylvangale
Date: 2005-12-16 17:45
Not to be the bearer of bad news, but the violin may be a far worse instrument for your back problems:
google: violin back problems
It's not terribly ergonomic and some violinists have to resort to stands or center rests to relieve pain.
Perhaps some meditation and some good self awareness of what your body is doing can be a good help.
I recommend something light weight like a Flute or Trumpet if you really want to get into music, but can't bear anythng with weight and refuse using a supporting stand.
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