 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: JRJINSA
Date: 2009-07-30 17:42
Hi all,
I am still at this oboe hobby even after doing it 3 years. NEVER has anything intrigued me so much to keep at it this long. My getting better at this has reached a point where I really must make my reeds from start to finish. I'm not happy with the Nielsen reeds I've been using anymore and I'm not happy with the folded and shaped cane I've been getting because it's so inconsistent. So.....
My teacher is going to instruct me on gouging and shaping cane. I just acquired an INNOLEDY GOUGER which and a MACK/PFEIFFER shaper tip. My teacher loves this combination. Any one else out there using these products? Any thoughts or recommendations?
Would love to hear from you if you feel like throwing thoughts at a cane gouging newby.
Happy oboing all!!!
Jay
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Author: oboedrew
Date: 2009-07-30 19:08
Jay,
Congrats on the purchases. That's a good gouge and a good shape. You can't go wrong with either.
One piece of advice: when your reeds turn out wrong, don't be too quick to blame the gouge or the shape. They make great scapegoats, but knife technique is usually at fault.
In hindsight, I know I would've mastered reedmaking faster had I been more critical of my own scraping and less suspicious of this or that gouge or shape. But that's what we oboists are taught to do: pass the buck, blame the gouge or blame the shape, try a different setup and hope the problem disappears.
Whatever setup you use, some oboist will come along and tell you it's all wrong. But there's always somebody else out there making good reeds with the allegedly inadequate setup.
So I think you're on the right track. Start with your teacher's setup and learn to gouge and shape. But your knife technique is by far the most important aspect of reedmaking.
Cheers,
Drew
www.oboedrew.com
Post Edited (2009-07-30 19:33)
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Author: oboeobo
Date: 2009-07-30 20:50
I use a very similar combination, (Innoledy and -1n) so maybe I can drop a helpful hint here.
Make sure your knife is super sharp. Dull knives are very hard to work with.
Use only straight peices of cane for gouging, and make sure you are careful with your shaping. You might be surprised how a tiny flaw in the shaping affects the outcome.
Make sure you really get the reed vibrating. With narrow shapes and the Innoledy gouge, you will have to scrape the reed thinnner overall to get the reed to vibrate. The advantage here is that you don't have to bite to get the reed up to pitch.
My .02.
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Author: Dutchy
Date: 2009-07-30 20:50
If the only mass-produced reeds you've been using are Nielsens, I can give you a short list of next-step-up handmade reeds, if you like.
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Author: JRJINSA
Date: 2009-07-30 21:00
WOW! Great info. Thanks all so far.... Oh, I know well the importance of a sharp knife. I'm pretty good at that...use a diamond stone and ceramic stone to get the desired results. I've gotten the hang of scraping reeds and finishing them, though what has been the most annoying part is I take my problem reeds to my teacher who says, that's a bad gouge...that's too soft cane, etc., hence the reason I am trying to be in more "control" here...or hope to be at the start. I am defintely going to stick to these two products and not try to throw anything else into the equation that just complicate things.
Dutchy, thanks so much for your offer on the handmade reeds. I have seen your recommendations on threads in the past and shall keep those in the back of my mind if all else fails. One thing I have found annoying lately with some of these places that sell the nice handmade reeds is their backlog in getting them to you. I called one of the reputable ones recently and they said, "I can get you your reeds in three months...but, if you want it next week, add $100". LOL! I'm already off topic here but have others encountered this too?!? Man, this makes me want to get real good at making reeds and perhaps I can quit my day job!
Thanks again all! You are all most helpful and I'm glad to hear you like my teacher's choice in gadgets.
Jay
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2009-07-31 04:07
Well i haven't yet got to the point that i find GSF cane is too inconsistent, and like others already mentioned, IMO tying and knifing are maybe 97% of the problem with making reeds work 'consistently' and it's usually the tiniest (mis)scrape that changes everything
For example, the other day, reed for the day getting older & sharper, toning C# plus, so decided to thin a bit more wood to flatten it, well, took maybe just one dusting too much off, tip went raucous between blow tests, had to clip the tip, which tightened it nicely -- back at slightly less sharp C#, yahoo (bum reed's in the morgue now)
However, maybe the cane quality you've been using really is inconsistent, as in -- bad gouge, too soft, bit green, warped, irregular, some (beep) too difficult to close when tying, etc. -- more than half a bundle of 10?
In other words, poor quality control in that brand of cane pieces, there really are other brands with better quality control
Did you sample several brands GSF or did you just stick to one favorite? Anyway, factor in an allowance of approx 3 casualties in every bunch of 10
Still, at U$2.75 to $3.95 a piece, even factoring in additional cost of tube and thread, DIY reed from GSF is maybe $8 compared to econo $12-16 for ready to blow hand-made student quality reeds. It would take 2 failed attempts, one crack, one bum knife, and then a successful playable reed to add up to that much, which would be equivalent of 66% wastage. If your wastage is higher than that, maybe your apprencticeship with knife skills really would benefit from another year's experience
But anyway, you've already bought the gouger and shaper tip and you're eager to use them, and most important, you have a teacher, good-good ...
Hah! now you've got two other ways & means to dramatically increase wastage ... best wishes mastering use of tools sooner rather than later :-)
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2009-08-01 06:26
Regarding the Innoledy, I've seen people say that they had a hard time getting it to vibrate enough, and I've heard of people saying that they consistently couldn't get enough vibrations in it. I trust the people who said that they had a hard time getting the gouge to vibrate enough (namely because I know their reeds and scraping), so I'd lean toward that, but know that there are both camps. Even Mack, who swore he'd never use any gouging machine other than a graf machine began using the Innoledy toward the end of his life and said that it was an "okay" gouge, but he didn't think it was anything to write home about.
I think the fact that your teacher likes both the Pfeiffer Mack and the Innoledy says something about what the teacher is trying to strive something. Sounds like a reed that is more covered, less vibrations (probably requiring more "hard blowing") and stable in the upper register. My best suggestion is that if your teacher has found this combination to work, then strive to scrape a reed like your teacher, not like the Nielson reeds or any other reeds you've been buying off of someone.
Also be aware of the "Mack style of shaping". He always shaped his cane with the fold actually folded OVER the ears, rather than in between the ears. Then he'd also tie the reed as short as possible (71mm to 70mm) and chop it open barely and scrape it to finish. This gave him a wider throat and fuller bottom to the sound.
Oboedrew and I disagree on the importance of the gouge, but my opinion is that the gouge is the single most important aspect of reedmaking. I've heard Mr. Weber, Mack, Joe Robinson, and many others say that a good gouge can cover bad quality cane, faulty scraping, and plenty of other faults in reedmaking. The staple is the extension of your oboe bore, and the gouge curvature is an extension of that. If you work on that Innoledy for a while, and notice that despite your best efforts, you find common faults in your reeds, the first thing to try is a different gouge (I find the best gouged cane sold is from Chudnow or Boston Double Reeds).
For all of my undergraduate years I worked on single radius gouging machines (RDG and Ross). Despite attempt after attempt, I could never get the flexibility I desired with the stability I needed, mainly because the sides were too thick and once I began scraping down the sides the reed became unstable. After many many years, I finally switched to a single radius gouge and the hypothetical "oboe reed heavens opened up and shed its sunshine upon thee."
Just my two cents. (or more like a dollar, but oh well.)
Cooper
cooperwrightreeds.com
cooperwrightreeds.wordpress.com
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Author: JRJINSA
Date: 2009-08-03 14:56
Thanks for your input Cooper.
I have three of my teacher's reeds made with this combination so I have them as models. You are right - these do not appear to be at all like the usual Nielsen scrapes. His reeds show much smoother transitions between the heart and the back which I am mimmicking. The heart is thinner as well. The reeds are rather resistant yet very responsive and great tone, IMHO. My favorite part is how nice the low Bb, B, and C sound - very pure and easy to play softly. Freaks me out!!! Stability is truly amazing...very little embouchure needed.
Since I wrote my original post, I have managed to make a good reed already, start to finish! I'm liking this a lot so far!!! I'm a happy dude!
Thanks again.
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2009-08-03 16:39
Cooper, regarding your post:
"For all of my undergraduate years I worked on single radius gouging machines (RDG and Ross). Despite attempt after attempt, I could never get the flexibility I desired with the stability I needed, mainly because the sides were too thick and once I began scraping down the sides the reed became unstable. After many many years, I finally switched to a single radius gouge and the hypothetical "oboe reed heavens opened up and shed its sunshine upon thee."
Can you explain to me what a single radius gouge is what are the other options available? I assume you made a mistake by saying that your life became better after you switched to something else instead of what you wrote?
Regards,
Howard
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Author: oboedrew
Date: 2009-08-03 17:14
cjwright wrote:
> Regarding the Innoledy, I've seen people
> say that they had a hard time getting it
> to vibrate enough, and I've heard of people
> saying that they consistently couldn't get
> enough vibrations in it.
There's someone saying that about every gouger. It's mostly nonsense. A gouger doesn't make cane harder or denser. It doesn't make it any less likely to vibrate. The scrape frees the reed to vibrate. Of course, if a reedmaker switches from one machine to another but lacks the patience or the knife technique to adapt to an unfamiliar gouge, that reedmaker might give up too easily on the new machine and assume it's to blame for the reeds not vibrating. Usually the new machine just requires a different sort of scrape.
cjwright wrote:
> Also be aware of the "Mack style of shaping".
> He always shaped his cane with the fold actually
> folded OVER the ears, rather than in between
> the ears. Then he'd also tie the reed as short
> as possible (71mm to 70mm) and chop it open
> barely and scrape it to finish. This gave him a
> wider throat and fuller bottom to the sound.
Cooper, we finally agree on something! Good to know there's common ground.
cjwright wrote:
> Oboedrew and I disagree on the importance
> of the gouge, but my opinion is that the
> gouge is the single most important aspect
> of reedmaking. I've heard Mr. Weber, Mack,
> Joe Robinson, and many others say that a
> good gouge can cover bad quality cane, faulty
> scraping, and plenty of other faults in reedmaking.
Some oboists believe the gouge is the key to good reeds. Naturally, these oboists believe they've discovered the "right" gouge. But do any of them agree on which gouge is the secret weapon? Nope. There are great reedmakers making great reeds on every gouge, and there are bad reedmakers making bad reeds on every gouge. The best reedmakers can make good reeds on ANY gouge, because they have adaptable knife technique.
At this point, I should clarify that I do not believe the best players are necessarily the best reedmakers, and vice versa. Sometimes fine players are dependent on a certain gouge or shape because they are mediocre reedmakers. They lack the knife technique to adapt to different setups. This results in much confusion, because we oboists are quick to believe even the most absurd ideas when they are voiced by famous players. We forget sometimes that playing and reedmaking, though related, are still separate skills.
You can't make good reeds with a bad scrape, no matter what the gouge. And despite the claims of a few famous players, there's no "right" gouge, no secret weapon. If there were, every oboist would be using it, and reedmaking would be easy.
Cheers,
Drew
www.oboedrew.com
Post Edited (2009-08-03 17:18)
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2009-08-03 21:16
oboedrew wrote:
Quote:
A gouger doesn't make cane harder or denser.
True.
Quote:
It doesn't make it any less likely to vibrate.The scrape frees the reed to vibrate.
I couldn't disagree with this statement more. The gouge helps determine how much cane the reedmaker needs to scrape off. And the more subdermal cane that needs to be scraped off, the less natural strength is left in the internal structure of the reed. In this regard, the gouge actually does determine whether the reed is more or less likely to vibrate. There are countless sources/reedmaking manuals that confirm this fact. (Cheryl Wefler's, Jay Light's, David Weber's, etc.)
The critical function is the rate of taper. If an oboist takes five different pieces of cane from his/her gouged cane and looks at it straight on, he/she will see that they each have a different rate of taper. Some stay thick in the center area and then begin to exponentially fall off in thickness closer to the sides of the cane (2 or 3 mm's from the center point of the piece) while other's begin to exponentially get thinner closer to the center (1mm from the center or so.)
When measuring this, you can imagine the effect it will have on the reed. The pieces that are thicker in the middle section generally produce more covered, sometimes "stuffier" reeds, while the cane with a faster rate of taper is generally more vibrant (since there is less cane in the channels that require scraping, and thinner sides).
When you gouge a piece of cane, you set the shape of the internal radius of the cane. No scraping on the outside can change that internal shape, and therefore just by taking more time to "adjust to the gouge" doesn't necessarily mean that you can make a good reed out of nothing.
I wish Craig Matovich was still around on this board, because he knew all sorts of things about scientific acoustical figures that he could provide us. The gouge doesn't only effect the tone, but also effects how in-tune or not-in-tune octaves are.
Quote:
Some oboists believe the gouge is the key to good reeds. Naturally, these oboists believe they've discovered the "right" gouge.
I don't know anyone who believes they've discovered the "right" gouge. In fact, this was the reason why so many people are always tinkering with their gouge. Not only does the blade wear down quickly which changes the gouge with every piece they gouge, but weather changes, humidity changes, and the music they're playing changes, forcing them to change their reeds.
Quote:
You can't make good reeds with a bad scrape, no matter what the gouge.
True.
Quote:
And despite the claims of a few famous players, there's no "right" gouge, no secret weapon. .
Like I said, I don't think anyone claims to have the right gouge, but some gouge curves are better than ever.
Quote:
If there were, every oboist would be using it, and reedmaking would be easy.
Drew, have you seriously ever ground a gouging blade to experiment with different curves?
Have you ever used digital machinery to make sure the parallels, rod, bed, guide, etc. are exactly in line?
Have you ever set up a gouging machine from scratch?
It's HARD. Even for some of the most experienced professionals/repairmen, setting up gouging machines is not a "fun" experience, nor is there anything "easy" about it. That's why the machines are so darn expensive, and why nobody charges less that $400 to set up gouging machines.
Cooper
cooperwrightreeds.com
cooperwrightreeds.wordpress.com
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Author: JRJINSA
Date: 2009-08-03 22:02
One really nice thing about this Innoledy gouger is it doesn't require any pro setup and the blade doesn't need sharpening. The cane to be gouged is pressed into a hole kinda like the Play-Doh Fun Factory...sorry for the crude comparison but that's what I think of. I did have to do some trial and error with it to get it calibrated just right to make the .58mm thickness I'm striving for. My teacher gave me a piece of metal (measuring exactly .58 +/- .001) to calibrate it with against a micrometer. It took about 15 minutes to get it right and a wasted piece of cane but it should be good for a while....
I just made another good reed with it. Either I'm lucky or this thing is a cinch for a mere newby! I'm loving this!
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Author: oboedrew
Date: 2009-08-03 22:47
cjwright wrote:
> The gouge helps determine how much cane
> the reedmaker needs to scrape off.
Precisely. A good reedmaker adapts to the gouge, and the best reedmakers can adapt to many gouges. Scrape a little more here with one gouge and a little more there with another, and most of the mainstream gougers work out quite well.
Reedmaking is largely about adapting quickly. The thickness of this or that section varies significantly from one piece of cane to another even when they are gouged on the same machine (five minutes with any gouger and a good micrometer can confirm this).
cjwright wrote:
> And the more subdermal cane that needs to
> be scraped off, the less natural strength is
> left in the internal structure of the reed.
The more you scrape on the outside the more it weakens the internal structure? That logic just doesn't hold up.
The gouge contributes to the structure of the reed, but the scrape is more important. Why do you think machine-made reeds are so bad? They're gouged just like handmade reeds, but the exterior is botched. Clearly the exterior structure is more important than the interior structure.
cjwright wrote:
> In this regard, the gouge actually does determine whether the
> reed is more or less likely to vibrate.
No, the gouge influences the sort of scrape that will best enable the reed to vibrate. Each gouge must be scraped differently, but no gouge produces cane incapable of vibrating, or even unlikely to vibrate.
cjwright wrote:
> When measuring this, you can imagine the effect it will have on
> the reed. The pieces that are thicker in the middle section
> generally produce more covered, sometimes "stuffier" reeds,
> while the cane with a faster rate of taper is generally more
> vibrant (since there is less cane in the channels that require
> scraping, and thinner sides).
That's assuming each piece is scraped the same. But the scrape can compensate for many variations in the gouge.
cjwright wrote:
> When you gouge a piece of cane, you set the shape of the
> internal radius of the cane. No scraping on the outside can
> change that internal shape, and therefore just by taking more
> time to "adjust to the gouge" doesn't necessarily mean that you
> can make a good reed out of nothing.
Of course scraping the outside can't change the inside. But scraping the outside in different ways can compensate for differences on the inside.
Cooper, no matter how confident you are that a certain gouger is all wrong and can't produce good reeds, I assure you there's an oboist somewhere making good reeds on that gouge. Clearly somebody is able to adapt to it, even if you're not.
cjwright wrote:
> The gouge doesn't only effect the tone,
> but also effects how in-tune or
> not-in-tune octaves are.
Yes, the gouge effects all these things and more. But it doesn't control any of these things. It is just one of many factors. The shape, staple, and cane are factors too. But the scrape is the most important. By changing the scrape, we can adapt to different gouges. And that's a lot easier (and cheaper) than changing your gouge to adapt to your scrape.
cjwright wrote:
> Drew, have you seriously ever ground a gouging blade to
> experiment with different curves?
> Have you
> ever used digital machinery to make sure the parallels, rod,
> bed, guide, etc. are exactly in line?
> Have you ever set up a gouging machine from scratch?
I've done some work on gougers in the past, but I no longer do any of that. It doesn't really interest me. I hope you're not implying that one has to build gougers to form an opinion on them, because that would be absurd. You might as well say you can't have favorite oboe-makers unless you ream bores in your free time.
cjwright wrote:
> It's HARD. Even for some of the most experienced
> professionals/repairmen, setting up gouging machines is not a
> "fun" experience, nor is there anything "easy" about it. That's
> why the machines are so darn expensive, and why
> nobody
> charges less that $400 to set up gouging machines.
I'm quite sure I never suggested setting up gougers was easy. Not sure where you got that idea. But you've hit on a possible motive behind the myth of the gouger as the most important part of reedmaking. There's a lot more money to be made on gougers than on cane or staples. The way some oboists talk about certain gougers reminds me of personal trainers touting their favorite weightlifting machines. The only difference is that we oboists don't have such fancy commercials. But it's always good business to convince the gullible that your machine will give them amazing results with less work.
Cheers,
Drew
www.oboedrew.com
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Author: oboedrew
Date: 2009-08-03 22:50
JRJINSA wrote:
> I just made another good reed with it.
> Either I'm lucky or this thing is a cinch
> for a mere newby! I'm loving this!
Congrats! Glad to hear it's working out so well.
Cheers,
Drew
www.oboedrew.com
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Author: oboedrew
Date: 2009-08-03 23:09
JRJINSA wrote:
> One really nice thing about this Innoledy
> gouger is it doesn't require any pro setup
> and the blade doesn't need sharpening.
Jay, I suspect that's why some oboists dislike this relatively new gouger. If machines like it are the future of gouging, some people are going to be out of work. I guess I understand. I make part of my living selling reeds, and I'll probably be kinda miffed when somebody invents an amazing synthetic oboe reed that lasts forever. But, still, it's exciting to see all the innovations in gougers nowadays.
Cheers,
Drew
www.oboedrew.com
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2009-08-03 23:11
Quote:
The more you scrape on the outside the more it weakens the internal structure? That logic just doesn't hold up.
The gouge contributes to the structure of the reed, but the scrape is more important. Why do you think machine-made reeds are so bad? They're gouged just like handmade reeds, but the exterior is botched. Clearly the exterior structure is more important than the interior structure.
It does indeed hold up. Machine made reeds are so bad because they scrape out the structure of the reed, including the bark off of the rails, they provide no definition, they don't get the corners thin enough, and they can't properly define the windows. If you scrape too much bark off of the reed, then you're collapsing the internal structure of the opening of the reed.
Quote:
Cooper, no matter how confident you are that a certain gouger is all wrong and can't produce good reeds, I assure you there's an oboist somewhere making good reeds on that gouge.
Yes, making good reeds for them.
Quote:
Yes, the gouge effects all these things and more. But it doesn't control any of these things. It is just one of many factors.
It can severely cripple these, to the point that you're giving up stability or tone to get one thing or another.
Quote:
I've done some work on gougers in the past, but I no longer do any of that. It doesn't really interest me. I hope you're not implying that one has to build gougers to form an opinion on them, because that would be absurd
How much is "some"? Have you reground blades? Used single and double radius machines? For not being interesting in the machines, you certainly seem to think you know a lot about it.
I'm not saying someone has to build gougers, but until you have worked with enough different gouging machines, ground blades and experimented with different curves, enough to know the full capabilities of what a gouge can and can not do, then I don't think you're qualified to instruct others.
You should also note that your opinions regarding the unimportance of the gouge go against close to 100 years of the American school of oboe knowledge, dating back as far as Tabuteau, Mack, de Lancie, and their pupils as well.
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Author: oboedrew
Date: 2009-08-03 23:49
cjwright wrote:
> It does indeed hold up. Machine made reeds are so bad because
> they scrape out the structure of the reed, including the bark
> off of the rails, they provide no definition, they don't get
> the corners thin enough, and they can't properly define the
> windows.
Everything you described is an adjustment to the outside of the reed. "Internal," of course, refers to the inside. Removing the rails is not changing the internal structure. It's changing the external structure.
cjwright wrote:
> How much is "some"? Have you reground blades? Used single and
> double radius machines? For not being interesting in the
> machines, you certainly seem to think you know a lot about it.
Cooper, are you actually reading my posts? I've never claimed to know any more than the average oboist about gougers. But I do know a lot about scraping. And I know that I can adapt my scrape to work quite well with many gouges.
cjwright wrote:
> I'm not saying someone has to build gougers, but until you have
> worked with enough different gouging machines, ground blades
> and experimented with different curves, enough to know the full
> capabilities of what a gouge can and can not do, then I don't
> think you're qualified to instruct others.
If you'd like to come to Columbus and arrange a lesson, I'd be happy to show you how I adapt my scrape to different gouges. Until then, I'm quite sure you don't know enough about my pedagogical methods or capabilities to suggest that I am unqualified. You are entirely out of line.
cjwright wrote:
> You should also note that your opinions regarding the
> unimportance of the gouge go against close to 100 years of the
> American school of oboe knowledge, dating back as far as
> Tabuteau, Mack, de Lancie, and their pupils as well.
That is inaccurate. There is no consensus on this, not even in America. My ideas did not develop in a vacuum. I learned what I know from other oboists, as we all do. And all of my teachers traced their lineage back to Tabuteau.
Also, let me reiterate that the gouge is not unimportant. It is just one of many factors. The scrape is more important, but that does not make the gouge unimportant. This is a significant distinction.
Cheers,
Drew
www.oboedrew.com
Post Edited (2009-08-03 23:51)
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Author: JRJINSA
Date: 2009-08-04 13:12
>>>Congrats! Glad to hear it's working out so well.<<<
Thanks Drew. Appreciate it.
I am keeping my "oboe world" small for now. I realize there are 1 million ways to skin a cat here but I'm trying to throw in the least amount of variables with this, otherwise, I'd likely scrap the entire hobby due to frustration. I have just a few toys here and plan on making these work for a while before venturing out, if I ever venture out. Ignorance is bliss at this point. I am enjoying this a lot so far. Thanks so much all for your input. It is fascinating.
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Author: oboedrew
Date: 2009-08-04 14:32
JRJINSA wrote:
>
> I am keeping my "oboe world" small for now. I realize there
> are 1 million ways to skin a cat here but I'm trying to throw
> in the least amount of variables with this, otherwise, I'd
> likely scrap the entire hobby due to frustration. I have just
> a few toys here and plan on making these work for a while
> before venturing out, if I ever venture out. Ignorance is
> bliss at this point. I am enjoying this a lot so far. Thanks
> so much all for your input. It is fascinating.
A smart move, for sure. The fewer variables, the merrier.
Cheers,
Drew
www.oboedrew.com
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2009-08-05 08:21
Hey guys, cool it!
Nobody here is accusing each other of being unprofessional or unknowledgable. Yet. Let's keep it that way. You can both agree to differ.
Drew, nobody is doubting that, within certain parameters, it is possible to make a reasonably well-playing reed from a wide range of gouges and good reeds from most gouges. An experienced reedmaker such as yourself will be able to accommodate many variances of gouge, often without needing to think about it first. I wish I had your skill!
Cooper, you are obviously very focused right now on getting your gouge just right, so that your reeds have that quality of extra vitality and depth. You've discovered that, for you, the gouge is an essential ingredient. That's great! And please keep sharing your expertise so that we can all benefit from your findings. Perhaps we can imitate them.
I read a great article about cane here:
http://koppreeds.com/virtues.html
The discussion of the internal structure of cane would seem to suggest that reeds will actually be harder if the gauge is thinner, since the heart and tip of the reed will be formed more from the denser, outer layers of cane and not from the softer, inner layers. Is this correct?
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Author: oboedrew
Date: 2009-08-05 10:40
jhoyla wrote:
> I read a great article about cane here:
> http://koppreeds.com/virtues.html
>
> The discussion of the internal structure of cane would seem to
> suggest that reeds will actually be harder if the gauge is
> thinner, since the heart and tip of the reed will be formed
> more from the denser, outer layers of cane and not from the
> softer, inner layers. Is this correct?
That's a good article, Jeremy. But the hard outer layer is what we casually call "bark." With long-scrape reeds, it's entirely removed, except for the rails and a bit at the very back. Beneath it is a thin, milky layer. That too is removed. So whatever the gouge, the reed consists mostly of the soft, inner layer. The vascular bundles are almost evenly distributed within that soft layer. They're packed together a bit more closely toward the exterior. In theory, this could be a factor in reedmaking. But in actual practice, it isn't. Most mainstream gouges vary only a few hundredths of a millimeter in thickness at any given point. Such slight variations result in negligible differences in the density of vascular bundles.
Cheers,
Drew
www.oboedrew.com
Post Edited (2009-08-05 10:45)
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Author: wrowand
Date: 2009-08-05 13:48
Having worked on my own gouging machines for over 15 years now, I am convinced that while it's possible to make a reed that plays "adequately" on a run-of-the-mill, vanilla gouge; it's almost impossible to make a great reed on such a gouge. That's why so many of the great reed makers like Marcel Tabuteau, John Mack, John Ferillo, Eric Barr, Richard Woodhams among others spend (or spent) so much time working on their gouging machines. It certainly isn't because they lacked excellent knife technique (or that they just had too much time on their hands .
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2009-08-05 16:02
Drew,
But of course if you make reeds like this wonderful lady who plays professionally in a German orchestra http://maddy.aldis-evans.info/Reeds1.htm...then it makes all sense to use a thinner gouge. Again, it is all a matter of how reeds are scraped or wants to be scraped. No one is wrong, it is a matter of aim.
Howard
Post Edited (2009-08-05 16:02)
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Author: oboedrew
Date: 2009-08-05 16:33
wrowand wrote:
> Having worked on my own gouging machines for over 15 years now,
> I am convinced that while it's possible to make a reed that
> plays "adequately" on a run-of-the-mill, vanilla gouge; it's
> almost impossible to make a great reed on such a gouge.
Of course, the problem is that even very fine oboists can't agree on which gouge is "run-of-the-mill." The gouge that you consider "vanilla," somebody else considers the best. Yet every day we talk about gougers as if there were objectively and demonstrably good or bad ones.
I think arguments about gougers are a bit like arguments about religion. They're usually heated, but nobody convinces anybody of anything, because there's no evidence on either side, other than the individual's own experience. And for some oboists, gouging seems to be an almost religious experience: it involves faith, sometimes even a touch of fanaticism. That's not necessarily a bad thing. If some oboists choose to spend more time tweaking gouges and less time refining knife technique, and if they get the reeds they want that way, then good for them! To each their own.
wrowand wrote:
> That's why so many of the great reed makers like Marcel
> Tabuteau, John Mack, John Ferillo, Eric Barr, Richard
> Woodhams among others spend (or spent) so much time
> working on their gouging machines. It certainly isn't
> because they lacked excellent knife technique (or that
> they just had too much time on their hands.
That's a list of great players, not necessarily great reedmakers. Some great players are so prodigiously talented that they get by on mediocre reeds. This is especially possible when they're playing only orchestral literature, as are most of the players listed above. Certainly some of those players had/have mediocre knife technique.
Don't ask me to name specific names. I'm not interested in starting a flame war. Oboists sometimes react violently when you suggest that their favorite player is not an especially good reedmaker. This is puzzling to me, since playing and reedmaking are separate skills.
www.oboedrew.com
Post Edited (2009-08-05 16:45)
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Author: oboedrew
Date: 2009-08-05 17:06
HautboisJJ wrote:
> But of course if you make reeds like this wonderful lady
> who plays professionally in a German orchestra
> http://maddy.aldis-evans.info/Reeds1.htm...then it makes
> all sense to use a thinner gouge. Again, it is all a matter of
> how reeds are scraped or wants to be scraped. No one is
> wrong, it is a matter of aim.
Howard, so true! I agree with you completely. This subjectivity of gougers is precisely why I believe they cannot be considered the most important part of reedmaking... just the most expensive!
That particular oboist's website is new to me, but I'm not at all surprised by her thin gouge. There are oboists who make fine reeds on all sorts of gouges. I don't agree with her idea that hard cane is good cane and soft cane is bad cane, but she's certainly entitled to that opinion.
Nowadays I use a mainstream gouge, but in the past I've experimented with some bizarre ones. So I'm not really surprised by anyone's unconventional gouger preference.
Cheers,
Drew
www.oboedrew.com
Post Edited (2009-08-05 17:16)
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2009-08-05 17:43
Those settings look like cane gouged for a more German style of scrape. Perhaps some of our short-scraping friends can chirp in regarding those numbers. German gouged cane requires much thinner sides and thinner in the center as well, since they take off less but still require enough vibrations. In Korea, I used to scrape short scraping reeds, and was pleasantly surprised at how easy they are to play.
Again, German gouging machines are set up for completely different results. If you wanted to change a German gouging machine to be used for Americans (as Udo Heng has done so effectively), you'd have to change the guide and the curvature of the blade and THEN change the thicknesses.
Cooper
http://cooperwrightreeds.wordpress.com/
http://cooperwrightreeds.com/
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Author: oboedrew
Date: 2009-08-05 18:05
I too would be interested to hear from some German oboists on this matter. The way Maddy Aldis-Evans writes, it seems she expects those measurements to be a surprise to her reader. She implies her gouge is unusually thin.
I've been re-reading the Ledet book this week. Good book, the sort every oboist should re-read from time to time. He measured the center gouge thickness of eleven German reeds. They are .61, .61, .56, .58, .71, .63, .68, .56, .58, .56, and .56. For what it's worth, that's an average of .60, which is pretty much the norm here in the US. Granted, those figures are representative of German reeds several decades ago.
Any German oboists in the forum? I'd love to hear about the sort of gouges you're using nowadays.
Cheers,
Drew
www.oboedrew.com
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Author: Bobo
Date: 2009-08-05 19:16
Let me just comment from the bleachers out here that despite, or maybe because of, the heated discussion here, this is one of the best threads I've seen on the BBoard in a long while! Where there's heat there's light, sometimes! Thanks Drew and CJ for sharing your opinions and thanks Jay for getting it started. Maybe we should beat each other up again over which is better, the American school or the European school of oboe playing!!?
![[hot]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/hot.gif) ![[toast]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley15.gif)
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Author: mschmidt
Date: 2009-08-06 01:47
Oh, sure, you admire the European players, but do you admire the way that they play?
Mike
Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2009-08-06 06:47
=D
Quoted from Geoffrey Bridges' writing on Allexperts.com:
"The Greenline set up that Albrecht Mayer uses relies on a slightly heavier gouge than yours at about .59 to .60 and a Rigoutat -2 shaper tip an big staples too. Chiaguri I think. The staples made by Rigoutat work well in my experience. Indeed their gold plated 47mm staple looks and sounds quite flash!"
From my own experience, this again relies a bit on the way the reed is scrape, generally, in France, a longer tip but shorter scrape is preferred so you use an extremely thin gouge to begin with, say, 50-55. A wide shape compensates the lack of vibrations so it is possible to make a 'typical' German scrape, if not with a slightly longer scrape of 11-12mm and a longish V shape tip.
Again, Geoffrey writes:
"I must say that I seem to be able to use any sort of reed and with a little getting used to the set up, find myself OK providing there is plenty of vibration in it. I have made short scrape reeds with .55 thickness and had some success too but the best results have come for me - at the moment - with .58/.59 Neuranter cane gouged by myself on a Michel machine. I use a Michel shape or the Rigoutat -2 or the Udo Heng shape called "Berlin". The rigoutat is very broad and the sound is lovely and warm. BUT, if the cane is too hard I find that scraping too much off the inner rails by the spine will cause flatness in the crucial areas. I sometimes have to use a 46mm staple to achieve the pitch level I want but generally not. If the cane is too soft then flatness is everywhere! I find that my reeds need to be about 70.5 - 71 ish to be at 440cps by the way.
On my Loree Royal this set up is awful!! Flat as a bannock...."
I myself make short scrape reeds so can give a bit of insight into this matter.
Assuming now that the gouge is good, at around 56 give or take, with a side center ratio of .15 difference, and with a shape that fits the staple (closes only one turn before the staple top not earlier not later), and with one side of the blade tucked into the other, creating an overlap that is equal on both sides, with perhaps a shape that many American players use, lets say the XN for instance (or a similar one?).
One can now imagine, what this will result in, is a very big internal volume, if this reed is scraped in the American way, the result will simply be, as Geoffrey puts it, "Flat as a bannock....". So there is simply not right or wrong. My scrape then that works with the above is a simple 11mm scrape with a longish tip that forms a quite distinct V shape.
Bear in mind the way most European players play, most dont let the embouchure absolutely loose, where in the American way one makes a perfect reed and let the reed do it's job and the air just flows. So a bit of biting or firmness on the sides of the embouchure is even encouraged, to be sure, no red is to be seen. The upside of this way is of course one can allow more energy in the reed and with a lot of vibrations in the reed, one can have a larger pallette of dynamics and colors by control through the embouchure. The down side is of course, it is much more tiring to play a short scrape reed, but the usual concensus is that all short scrape reeds are bad reeds thus are tiring to play, not true! Like all reeds of all shapes and sizes, we make good and bad reeds, and good short scraped reeds will be just as easy to play compared to a good American scraped reed. The difference is of course then the method of playing and the instrument, which creates the final product which can be so varied and interesting! Just listen to Francois Leleux, tell me that is a bad reed. Hah!
When i took lessons with Douvas in Canada, she emphasized how important it was to keep an 'inner' tip with an overlap so that the reeds can have a higher register where you dont have to adjust your embouchure to get up to. This all makes perfect sense. On a 'typical' short scrape reed, the upper register on a Loree Royale usually sags, so does the middle c, so a different way of making the reed is necessary. If you think of the common sense behind all these, a long scrape reed has to be long just because the reed is overlapped, creating a small internal volume, and not having a long scrape will simply result in a very sharp reed! In the Netherlands, we have reed makers, in fact, a certain Mark too, that visits our Bboard, that makes long scraped reeds with no distinct spine (because that is already built in the gouge) not overlapped and tied in the European way as i have mentioned, with a very thick gouge (around 65?), but with 42mm staples. I played one recently, A-MA-ZING ease and pitch.
There you go, no one is right or wrong, if it's beautiful oboe playing at the end!
Howard
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Author: oboedrew
Date: 2009-08-06 15:25
mschmidt wrote:
> Oh, sure, you admire the European players, but do
> you admire the way that they play?
Definitely. I grew up preferring Heinz Holliger to John Mack. That's sacrilege around here. Over the years I've developed a greater appreciation for the traditions of various American schools, but I still think some of the most exciting oboe playing is happening overseas.
Cheers,
Drew
www.oboedrew.com
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2009-08-20 13:37
Hi Oboe BB,
I like to add to the discussion on gougers. I just a had a conversation with Dan Ross on the gouge depth setting. He suggested that a reed with a thinner gouge would last longer.
From my own experience (through an unexpected error -when I inadvertently changed the depth setting to a very thin one >.57); I found it much easier to scrape and finish a reed. Less cane resulted in a quicker crow with less scrapes and the ability to quickly finish the reed. I was able to get consistent results comparable to previos reeds made with a thicker gouge.
The thinner gouge sound was flexible and warm.
Fom my experience cane selection is the most important part of the process.
I'm just exhausted over two kilos of cane which I used over many years. I have had the most diffiuclt time finding a suitable replacement supply.
If the piece of cane has built in to it all the proper attributes. Reed making becomes quite easy. If not - you can scrape and fiddle forever!
Mark
Post Edited (2009-08-20 14:21)
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Author: oboedrew
Date: 2009-08-20 16:07
Hi, Mark. Welcome to the forum. I used a Ross gouger for a few years. Dang good machine. Did Dan explain why he believes a thinner gouge makes a reed last longer? It's a new theory to me, so I'm curious to hear the rationale behind it.
Cheers,
Drew
www.oboedrew.com
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2009-08-20 19:06
While I'm not saying a gouge can literally change the quality of the fibers, density, etc of bad cane, I will state that a good gouge can help compensate for mediocre cane.
The guide of a gouging machine gives a certain pushing down action upon the cane, while the blade has a pulling upward force upon the cane. In careful balance, the two function to give just the right amount of force to accomplish a smooth, even cut. It is important that the cane is "cut" in the gouging process, rather than being "ripped" away, which produces curls which look like rough fibers with holes, or pieces of cane that have little barbs/bumps on them. These barbs are evidence that at some point from when the blade is going across the inside of the piece of cane, something snags and therefore the cane isn't being perfectly cut.
Of course these barbs can be the result of mediocre or poor quality cane, but the proper balance of forces, along with a razor sharp blade can lessen the problem by cutting flawed cane more smoothly.
A bad gouge however can certainly make good cane turn really bad, really fast. Even if you have some of the finest, densest, tight-grained cane, if you have a bad gouge, the curls will come off as stringy or "swiss-cheesy". This can be caused by scratches in the guide, rust or rough spots (i.e. not perfectly smooth edge) on the blade, or even misalignment of the bed with the guide/parallels/bar etc.
For those who buy gouged cane, you should always check your cane when you buy it:
1. Is the cane even (.within .01, maybe .02) from the center of the piece (width-wise) from one end to the other (if the piece is 76mm long, check every .15mm)
2. Under a light with a magnifying glass, look at the inside of the piece of cane and see if the cane is wide grain or tight-grained.
3. Also check if there's grooves in between the grains, as this gives you an idea as to how smooth the gouge is. A good gouge should cut very smoothly, so it looks as smooth as sandpaper.
4. Check for cracks and other flaws.
I don't know anyone who sands the inside of their cane, namely because it changes the gouge and therefore would change the acoustical properties, not to mention it makes the entire piece of cane uneven (unless you can evenly sand .01mm off an entire piece of cane).
Cane that has been gouged so that the surface looks rough in the inside tends to be less vibrant while the cane that is smoother vibrates more quickly. Therefore, technically speaking, cane that is gouged smoother should require less cane scraped off which in my opinion makes a reed with a better skeletal structure, and is more stable and from what I gather from the statement above from Dan Ross, would make it last longer. But I don't want to get into that conversation again.
Hope this helps.
Cooper
CooperWrightReeds.com
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
Post Edited (2009-08-20 19:15)
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Author: johnt
Date: 2009-08-20 19:06
Agree with you, Drew. The Dan Ross is an amazing machine. He's an amazing guy. Thing makers usually are. We, the tinkerers with their things, sometimes are not. Reminds me of the old vaudeville joke about the rabbit who kept washing his thing. He couldn't do a hair with it. Groaners aside, I've used the Innoledy, the Dan Ross & the RDG. I sold the RDG. Too fickle. However, I did get OK reeds from it. The Innoledy gives me good playable reeds & Bravo to Tong Cui for putting this revelationary machine on the market. The Dan Ross IMHO results in a deeper, warmer, fuller sound, especially in the bottom of the register F down to B flat. This is totally subjective, of course. Dan would say it's the curve of the gouger blade.
John Mack could make reeds out of cedar shakes. Whatever he did he made them work. I asked him once how he did it & his response was totally in character: "John, I don't know; I just do it." A couple of nanoseconds later, he was working on another student's reed, making that one work. Of course it's the knife, of course it's the gouge & the shape & the oboe & the embouchure & the finger dexterity: all these variables contribute. I think there are two hards & fasts, though, a scary sharp knife (which I get using the Nielsen wedge knife & sheets of wet/dry sandpaper glued to thick plate glass intermixed with ceramic minisharps from Mark Chudnow & my trusty burnisher from from the folks at Sheffield in the UK) AND a gouger properly adjusted & properly sharpened of one's choosing: mine being the Dan Ross. As John Mack was fond of saying, Do you like Irish whiskey (thrice distilled) or Scotch whisky (twice distilled)? oh, look, they're even spelled differently. But the result is the same; a warm glow as long as ye sip a wee dram & not too much too often. Oh, & I almost forgot; doesn't hurt to have the David Weber 1B shaper tip either.
My 2 Euros/ha'pennys.
Best,
john
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Author: oboedrew
Date: 2009-08-20 22:31
I'm sure we can all agree that the gouger blade must be sharp, just as the knife must be sharp. The gouge determines the internal structure of the reed, whereas the scrape determines the external structure. A dull blade tearing off cane on either side can ruin a reed.
cjwright wrote:
> I don't know anyone who sands the inside of their cane,
> namely because it changes the gouge and therefore
> would change the acoustical properties, not to mention
> it makes the entire piece of cane uneven (unless you
> can evenly sand .01mm off an entire piece of cane).
A case can be made for sanding the interior, and there are oboists who do it. Their rationale is that sandpaper on the inside (much like a knife on the outside) can be used to compensate for minor flaws in the gouge. I tried this method a few years ago, but I didn't care much for it. In my opinion, better to do the work with the knife, and to select well-gouged cane in the first place.
cjwright wrote:
> Cane that has been gouged so that the surface looks
> rough in the inside tends to be less vibrant while the
> cane that is smoother vibrates more quickly.
I agree that the interior surface of the cane should be smooth, but for different reasons... and that's another topic for another post that I just don't have time for right now... maybe later...
cjwright wrote:
> Therefore, technically speaking, cane that is gouged
> smoother should require less cane scraped off which
> in my opinion makes a reed with a better skeletal
> structure, and is more stable and from what I gather
> from the statement above from Dan Ross, would
> make it last longer.
Certainly a more stable reed lasts longer, because the cane fibers are not broken down as quickly when the embouchure does not have to muscle the reed into submission. But I think you've inadvertently wandered from one case to another. Gouge smoothness and gouge thickness are separate issues. Mark mentioned that Dan thinks a thinner gouge results in a longer lasting reed, not that a smoother interior results in a more stable reed that lasts longer. We already agree (partly) on the latter. But I'm curious about the rationale behind the former.
Cheers,
Drew
www.oboedrew.com
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Author: oboedrew
Date: 2009-08-20 22:43
Ha, good Mack stories, John. What a character!
I certainly agree that the knife, gouge, cane, shape, staple, and so many other things are all factors. But I consider knife technique the most important because it allows us to quickly (and cheaply) adapt. Gougers are fickle. They get dull and they fall out of adjustment. Every cane crop is different and every piece of cane within a crop is different. But in good hands, it's that trusty ol' knife that adapts to everything else, so that we can keep turning out good reeds despite so many variables and so few constants.
Cheers,
Drew
www.oboedrew.com
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2009-08-21 00:12
I should have clarified: I have heard of oboists sanding the inside of their cane, but I don't know any commercial cane sellers that spend the time sanding the inside of the gouged cane they sell.
Dan states a thinner gouge makes reeds last longer. I would argue that it is because as Mark points out, less cane needs to be scraped off, therefore leaving more external structure so that the reed doesn't collapse itself as quickly.
Similarly, I would argue that a smooth gouge on the inside produces more vibrations, thus requiring less cane to be scraped off (which is necessary to make reeds more vibrant), thus also making reeds last longer.
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2009-08-21 02:26
I agree that a very sharp knife is crucial to reed making. It drives me crazy - but I am continuously sharpening my knives as I make my reeds!
I just purchased a new oboe. Here's another discussion topic:
The need to change reed styles/approaches etc. when adjusting to a new instrument!
My old reeds which are scraped to compensate for the proclivities of my old oboe do not do justice to the new instrument.
I now own a Loree Royal standard bore. It replaces my current standard bore Loree.
Mark
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Author: oboedrew
Date: 2009-08-21 17:48
> I just purchased a new oboe. Here's another discussion topic:
>
> The need to change reed styles/approaches etc. when adjusting
> to a new instrument!
>
> My old reeds which are scraped to compensate for the
> proclivities of my old oboe do not do justice to the new
> instrument.
>
> I now own a Loree Royal standard bore. It replaces my current
> standard bore Loree.
>
> Mark
Yes, always an interesting topic. How long have you had the new oboe? What are your thoughts so far? What are you doing differently for the Royal?
Cheers,
Drew
www.oboedrew.com
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Author: oboedrew
Date: 2009-08-21 19:17
Attachment: illustration one.jpg (19k)
Attachment: illustration two.jpg (18k)
Attachment: illustration three.jpg (19k)
cjwright wrote:
> Dan states a thinner gouge makes reeds last longer.
> I would argue that it is because as Mark points out,
> less cane needs to be scraped off, therefore leaving
> more external structure so that the reed doesn't
> collapse itself as quickly.
Ah, I see where you're coming from. But my own approach is a bit different. I'll try to explain.
"Collapse" can mean two different things to a reedmaker. I might say that a certain reed collapses easily. But if I don't clarify the meaning, that's a neutral statement. It can be a good thing or a bad thing.
A reed must readily collapse to produce sound. A quick overview, since we musicians don't often discuss the physics of sound production:
When you blow through an oboe reed, you increase the interior air speed. This decreases the interior air pressure (Bernoulli effect). The resulting differential in interior/exterior air pressure causes the blades to collapse inward toward each other. As the reed closes, the interior air speed is reduced, and the interior air pressure is increased, so the reed springs back open. The cycle continues, and this rapid undulation of the reed blades sets the air column within the oboe vibrating.
So...
On the one hand, collapse is good and necessary. The soft inner layer of cane is more flexible than the bark, so more bark on the reed means more air pressure is required to instigate this cycle of collapse and rebound.
On the other hand, the reed must spring open again. Permanent collapse is bad.
But permanent collapse (especially early in the life of a reed) is usually the result of excessive jaw pressure, or "biting." And biting is encouraged, even required, when unnecessarily heavy exterior structures (the spine and rails) hold the reed too open.
The spine and rails are desirable, but only to a point. They play a role in stabilizing a reed. But theirs is not (or should not be) the lead role. They are of secondary importance. I believe they are often left too heavy by reedmakers who lack other tools for stabilizing a reed. And when they are left too heavy, biting is encouraged, and reeds wear out quickly. A balanced reed, with thin rails, a light spine, and only a moderate opening, does not encourage or even allow biting. Such a reed can last a surprisingly long time with the right embouchure. It can (and should) be gripped just tightly enough to maintain an airtight seal. The smaller, weaker muscles of the lips should be used for all minor adjustments to intonation and timbre. The stronger muscles of the jaw can crush a reed. They're too clumsy for such subtle manipulations, and they're most often responsible for the sort of collapse that is permanent and undesirable.
So, how is stability achieved with only thin rails and a light spine? The secrets are in the tip and in the transition from tip to heart.
The tip should taper both vertically and horizontally. The very tip of the tip should be thinner than the back of the tip, and the sides of the tip should be thinner than the center of the tip. So the thinnest points of the tip (and of the entire reed) should be the front corners. And they should be remarkably thin: nearly transparent when soaked. The thickest point of the tip should be the center of the back of the tip, just in front of the heart.
The transition from tip to heart is also critical. This is the adjustment I believe is most often overlooked. And when it is overlooked, excessively heavy structures have to be left in the back to achieve stability. The right balance of definition vs gradation is critical. I find that reedmakers more often err on the side of too much gradation and too little definition. It is easier to blend the heart into the tip. It is more difficult to create a precise dropoff without cutting through the reed. Every piece of cane is different, every gouge is different, so adaptability is critical when creating this transition from tip to heart. I've attached three illustrations of a cross-section of a reed in profile. Usually it is best to avoid the extremes of illustrations one and two. The ideal is something more like illustration three: a precise dropoff approached at both ends by a gentle slope. None of these illustrations are to scale. They're just quick sketches.
Cheers,
Drew
www.oboedrew.com
Post Edited (2009-08-23 00:49)
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2009-08-21 23:20
I think this is a very good explanation, and agree with most of it.
While I agree with your explanation of the integration between the heart and tip, as well as the description of how the tip is sloped, it is also necessary to mention that there are certain ways of using the structure of the overlap in order to further give stability. David Weber partially has explained this in his reedmaker's manual, while there are also tricks I've learned from him by just sitting next to his desk watching him. Assuming that if the cork is pointed toward you, and the cane outward, and the top blade is overlapped to the right, some of these tricks includes scraping the left window deeper than the right, scraping the left rail slightly thinner than the right, and scraping the bottom corner of the tip on the left side a hair lower than the right.
I also think it's necessary to note that in order to get those thin rails that you speak of, it's helpful to have control over such a variable with a double radius gouge. The narrower your shape is, the thinner the sides are going to have to be set at, while the wider the gouge, the thicker the sides need to be set at.
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