 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2005-11-08 02:50
Apropos of a distinction made on the "changing scene" thread on this board, I would like to invite comment on the particulars which distinguish the characteristics of symphonic oboe playing from solo oboe playing?
I am asking this question partly out of personal interest. I've played with a couple of ensembles (successfully), but my larger accomplishment, such as it is, is as a soloist/recitalist.
In the thread mentioned above, the characterization seems to be that a symphonic oboist must have a bigger, deeper sound than a soloist. However, my recent experience with a symphonic wind ensemble suggests to me that just the opposite is true. The conductor of this particular group kept asking for less and less sound from the oboe -- he characterized my sound as "big and deep", but wanted it to be "flute-like" and completely homogenized.
So, what IS symphonic oboe playing all about?
Susan
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Author: sylvangale
Date: 2005-11-08 05:15
Oh no... there is only one style in America for all Oboists, but only Oboists know of it. In fact it's so secretive and hush hush that people aren't even aware of the existence of ... Oboes.
:op
I think your director has an ear for Oboe sounds like that of European artists such as Pierre Pierlot / Heinz Holliger and you probably have an American Allan Vogel / Alex Klein ring to your sound which he just doesn't like.
It's something he needs to learn to accept.
Maybe he would understand a flute explanation... it's like asking James Galway to play like Jean-Pierre Rampal or vice versa.
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Author: sömeone
Date: 2005-11-08 07:06
Well.......it's a very subjective question.
To follow the flow or to kick on your personal preferences?
I say it takes more understanding of both the orchestra you are handling in, what is generally accepted in your area, and the most important of all, the technical aspects of playing in an ensemble, or as a soloist to decide.
Firstly....Ohsuzan, to reply your previous questions on previous threads....
No i am not Dutch. I am a Malaysian Chinese. Haha. I never studied long term with any teacher, which is quite funny because the classical community here do not indulge in oboe not even so as much orchestral music, and for those who do, they learn from a specific player of a school, and that small group is very rare.
I cannot define myself as a learner of a particular style, at least for now, due to my lack of experience and not to mention still an amateur of sorts. But my reed maker and long time teacher, a player from the country's radio symphony, had mentors of different schools of playing, and that too applies to me. His permanent teacher had long been the co-principal player of the Malaysian Philharmonic, Joost Flach, who is a Dutch school player.
I had all sorts of teachers, and fortunately (would that possibly be unfortunate in some ways? ), had all taught me intensive classes. So you can see how 'international' i have become. Haha. An American style player from Hong Kong, a Russian school player who has now migrated to the US, an English player, adjudicator for the ABRSM, and of course a Dutch player from the country's Philharmonic.
'Dutch School' as they call it, i will quote a post from last year by one of Diana Doherty's student, Kai, a Singaporean now currently living in Sydney:
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Author: Kai (---.adsl.wanadoo.nl)
Date: 2004-05-14 09:51
Hi guys,
I am an oboe student studying in Holland but I won't be able to answer your question on what is a Dutch scrape. This is probably because I have a swiss teacher with classmates from all over the world (except from Holland); the majority of Dutch oboe students I guess go to schools such as the Amsterdam or the Royal Conservatory because that's where the Dutch style is taught. These teachers of course, include musicians from the Concertgebouw. But here are some information about the oboe tradition in this country.
This Dutch style or scrape has a lot to do with the accoustics of the Concertgebouw itself - which in many's opinion, one of the best in the world. (I am looking forward to experiencing it for myself next month!) One player from the orchestra once said that this richly reverberent hall allows you to play and be heard without forcing your tone. Hence, for listeners who enjoy the Concertgebouw's sound, there is a 'unforced and relaxed' feel about it. The 2 most influential oboists who adopted this 'strategy' to play in the Concertgebouw were Jaap and Haakon Stotijn (father and son) with Haakon going on to become principal oboist. From their teachings, we then have the other fantastic Dutch oboists such as Jan Spronk, Han de Vries and more recently Pauline Oostenrijk (just to name a few). As far as I can gather, the scrape is still a U-shape but from the few samples that I can look at, the scrape is extremely short, playing is at the very tip and there is something to do with the gouging as well. I have also seen reeds with 2 wires, each at different 'heights.' Sorry I cannot provide any more substantial data!
One of the few Orchestras in the world in present times to still have a highly distinction sound of its own. I amy not be playing with their reeds but I do hope that this tradition carries on.
Personally, I do think the player makes more of the difference than the dimensions and measurements. So, to really understand what all this translates to, no better way than to listen to a Concertgebouw recording!
Happy reed-making!
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Coincidentally, Kai was the oboist who sold me his Loree DM and who's first teacher was Joost, the Dutch teacher of mine which i've previously mentioned. What a small world!
Technique wise the Dutch school emphasized breathing ideas a lot and the formation of a flat chin, other than that, i too aint qualified & knowledgeble enough to tell you how they differ from other schools of playing.
Back to the main topic of this thread:
Historical aspect:
The general development of the symphony orchestra, which came to a standard in just about Wagner's time, defined what we call now as the symphony orchestra, which is rather huge when compared orchestras of Mozart's period. This led to a huge change in oboe design, and in particular reed design, due to the fact that oboe players needed to project more than ever. And nowadays, schools are not as prominent as in the old days, when you can easily distinguish a style from another, globalisation and communication technology has led to a mixture of ideas and styles.
Technically....
When one plays in an ensemble (any!), one does not define a sound needed by sheer color, but with one general idea, one which projects and blends easily. I always tell my students who are so prone of a particular style, that it's really a personal preference more than a necessity, but bounded by what i mentioned above. I am sort of lucky to be born in this area because ensembles here do not need to abide to rules of having a particular sound to survive, and even the Malaysian Philharmonic from what i have learnt, has 4 oboists of different styles.(www.mpomusicians.com/winds.htm) But they are one of the most versatile woodwind sections i've ever seen, and despite having different tonal concepts, they blend incredibly well together, sounding the same! (I guess that really depends on good leadership of the principal and the cooperation of the players.) Of course i won't say that it will be that easy with American style players, because the tone is so much more different from the European stream of players, but again differences do arise even in the same school of playing, so how they do it? It's amazing....
I forgot where but i have read about an article of some player (it was a prominent one in the scene, Holliger or someone else.....) who said that homogeneity is very important. As in its best to keep a sound of the same means, but in a chamber situation, where with good accoustics you might not need to work harder on projection, but you will have to in a Symphonic scene. Simply put it, to maintain the sound you want, you must first consider whether it will work in both situations (i.e. symphonic or chamber, solo or ensemble), and if it doesnt, you will have to figure out how to fix that. (find a tone that you want, making sure that it projects, blends, and of course has good intonation.)
On a solo point of view (with piano in a small accoustical environment.), it might be less obvious if you are not projecting. So your tone can be more flexible than ever, and most distinguished soloists of such ARE indeed more preferred in this scene than others. (like in the previous thread where someone said something about favouring Eugene more than Alex in a symphonic situation, but i have heard Alex with CSO, conducted by Pierre Boulez, Stravinsky's Firebird Suite on DVD, and i loved it! So it really does depend on ones own ears.)
Having a flute like sound? Maybe he wants you to blend with others better, and might mean that your tone is a bit more edgy than you think. There is too much to consider, so study more and listen to more of other players, and of course there are so many other things that you can do to improve yourself.
Symphonic playing is about too many things. And i am still learning. Haha.
Howard
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2005-11-08 07:14
... solo singing not same as choral singing, ditto symphonic oboe not same as solo oboe; only in symphonic playing need solo oboe style at times, best of both worlds!
... agree, merge with flutes, think of flutes as beautiful white fluffy clouds (figuratively) and oboe timbre provides the shading grey-scale outlines which give the clouds subtle definition
... but when oboe line rises above top F, much stronger sound than flutes playing in the same region of upper treble, have to lighten up, become more dolce skylark or nightingale in tone, or the oboe's dark outline definition of the clouds seems mucho menacing -- unless that's intended effect, of course
... for instance, Pirates of Caribbean is upper octave oboe and blood red, sharp cutlass cutting edge desirable tonal quality, but couldn't do that in Ode to Joy, soft peachy pink and baby blue-violet much more appropriate
Symphonic playing, isn't that all about getting one's smallest wind aperture's no-fair! whining heard above all those whangy strings in front of the under-populated woodwinds, while all the heavy brass & percussion are really belting it out behind your back?
I reckon there's only one certain solution to get louder oboe sound in any orchestra, hire standard complement of 5 oboes singing mf dolce in upper register and sonore in lower register, instead of only 1 or 2 or maybe 3 busting a gut reaching for ff + 0.5, that'll really knock everybody's socks off, Handel, smiles all round
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2005-11-08 16:03
Symphonic oboists need to be able to play **much** louder than soloists. Focus, plangency, etc. get you only halfway there. Harold Gomberg was known as "the wooden trumpet."
I have several LPs of the Boston Symphony principals playing quintets and Strauss serenades, and the amount of sound is amazing.
Anthony Gigliotti said that when he played clarinet in the Philadelphia Orchestra, the wind players had three volume levels: forte, fortissimo and BTSOOI (Blow The S*** Out Of It).
Katherine Needleman, the principal oboist in Baltimore, makes the best reeds she can, selects the few that are loud enough for symphonic work, and sells the rest on eBay.
It's difficult to be graceful at the top of your lungs. The best players can do that -- make it sound as if they're just letting the tone flow out, while playing loud enough to knock you over at close range. The IDRS obituary tributes to the great bassoonist Maurice Allard made special mention of the extraordinary force of his playing, without visible effort.
Ken Shaw
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2005-11-08 19:37
Curiously enough, Ken, the reeds I was using for my symphonic adventure this past weekend were some that I got from Katherine Needleman.
Though they may be her "seconds," they are easily the most refined, responsive, and stable reeds I have ever played. I sounded absolutely gorgeous, if I do say so myself.
However, I had no opportunity to test the limits of these reeds' projecting abilities, since my solo bits were all marked "p" or "pp" -- and the conductor had let me know, early on, that he wanted no more than that, and possibly less.
But the capability of these reeds to allow whisperingly low pianissimos is also testimony to their excellence.
Susan
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Author: GMac
Date: 2005-11-09 03:59
I think the answer to your overriding question of what "IS" symphonic oboe playing all about?
It's completely and totally about flexibility.
What I mean is that a solo forte is not nearly the same as a blending forte. We as orchestral players have to be able to cover the whole spectrum from blending pianissimo to solo double forte. Being a really great orchestral player really means being able to listen like a hawk and blend in completely to make that 'floboe' sound or really make your tone so clear and powerful that it projects above anyone else regardless of dynamic level in a solo situation.
In regards to solo vs orchestral playing, I think that the requirements are exactly the same. You have to have enormous flexibility regardless of what you're doing. Being able to play only big, clear and loud is no more useful than being able to play only softly and discreetly in either situation. A concerto played loud all the way through certainly isn't very interesting to listen to! Also, an orchestral player who exclusively blends with the winds and never comes out of the texture isn't exactly fun to listen to either.
I personally think you need to make sure that this director knows that the oboe is always the most important player in the group and play out to your heart's content! :P
Graham
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2005-11-09 14:58
Speaking of the floboe, here is a wonderful essay by Robert Bloom on orchestral playing and blending with the other wind players. It literally changed my life. I started thinking differently and hearing better.
Ken Shaw
Whip Up a Tone Palette
By Robert Bloom
Woodwind World, Jan.-Feb. 1959, p. 8
"No, my dears, I am conscious of a flute and a bassoon. That's not what I want. I want to hear a third instrument, the result of a happy marriage between the two." The speaker is Toscanini; the phrase is in Debussy's "Iberia" at the beginning of the third movement.
Those few words of a great maestro contain the key to one of the secrets of fine solo and ensemble woodwind playing; the ability to vary the tonal color of one's instrument at will for the purpose of blending with other instruments or voices.
Many players think they are fulfilling their duty to music when they play with a pleasing tone, good intonation and finger dexterity, a good range of piano-forte, and a good feeling for rhythm. The foregoing are very necessary, but there are other important factors that distinguish the artist from the merely competent performers. Unfortunately, these other qualities are less tangible. They are difficult to teach and to learn. Being closely allied with one's personal talent and imagination, they belong in the category of aesthetics rather than mechanics.
A LETTER
My desire to write about the variety and blending of tonal colors came about through a letter I received some time ago. A few days before the receipt of the letter, some colleagues and I were discussing the very interesting subject of "why some instrumentalists are easier to play with than others." I remarked that I prefer to play with a musician who has a flexible tone even though his scale be a little erratic.
With us that night was a talented young clarinetist who was just starting his professional career. He had received his instrumental and general musical education at a good school, and had composed music that indicated outstanding talent. He wrote the letter from which I quote a part: "'The talk the other night opened my eyes to an aspect of playing that I had neglected. Until now, I thought it necessary to have *a* good tone. Now I see that I must acquire *many* good tones. I think all young players should be made to realize this."
Bravo! How boring it is to hear players who "turn on" the same tone for every measure of music they play. They have never learned there is a difference between La Boheme and the Eroica. Musicians who would never tolerate this monotony in singing or string-playing, have very often in the past accepted it as inevitable in woodwind playing.
If tonal variety is important in solo playing, it is the quintessence of ensemble playing. As an oboist, I am well aware of the difficulty of making the tone of my instrument approach that of the flute or clarinet while still retaining its own distinctive hue. I know that the same difficulties are encountered by the other woodwinds, but I feel that young woodwind players should be warned that conductors are no longer satisfied with the standards of a few years ago. They are constantly demanding more and more flexibility.
PROGRESS
If you doubt this last statement, listen to the woodwind players in the newer symphony orchestras of our nation's smaller cities. Listen to them critically, and I think you'll agree that much of the woodwind playing is of the caliber which only a few years ago was reserved for our major symphony orchestras. There were always outstanding artists, but now, artistry is demanded as the rule rather than the exception.
Good woodwind teachers have always insisted on careful intonation and enough flexibility for the execution of extreme nuances. Now we have advanced to a period when a command of tonal colors is becoming mandatory. "But," one may ask, "Why all this talk about colors? Doesn't every woodwind have its own distinctive timbre?"
The question is justified, but one may be overlooking the fact that every color has many shades. The shade of tone used when playing with one man would sound wrong when playing with another. If you will permit, I would like to cite some personal examples.
In my orchestral experience I have had the pleasure of playing with Baker, Mariano, and Wummer; all three are outstanding artists on the flute. It is unnecessary to tell flutists that each of these players has a different conception of flute tone. That is as it should be. Nothing is as uninteresting as a lot of carbon-copies. I have had to match my tone to each one individually, and they have had to do the same for me. I hope the effort has been as artistically rewarding for them as it has for me.
In our work with the Bach Aria Group, Julius Baker and I have had the interesting problem of blending with vocalists. These arias are not to be confused with our modern conception of arias in which the voice is of prime importance, everything else accompaniment. Bach has treated his voices and instrumentalists as equals; thus making his arias chamber music in the purest sense.
A FLOBOE
Once at a Victor recording session with Stokowski (who is an acknowledged master of orchestral color) Wummer and I were listening to a play-back of the second movement of the "New World Symphony." When the second theme in C sharp minor entered (flute and oboe unison), Wummer looked at me and said, "Bloom, we sound like a floboe." We had achieved success. Here was the third instrument.
One of the most memorable examples of this kind of playing I have ever heard was the blending of Tabuteau's oboe and McGinnis' clarinet in the first theme of Schubert's Unfinished. Indeed the spirit of this whole subject was expressed very succinctly by McGinnis (as he expresses everything). Once, when I congratulated him on the way he took over a passage from the flute in "L'Apres Midi," Bob said, "Well, I was actually playing flute for the first three or four notes."
One cannot hope to fully cover this subject in an article of this length, but I hope I have aroused the reader's interest. I know there is very little in what I have written that can be put to immediate technical use, but I will feel my aim accomplished if young players are encouraged to think and experiment along these lines.
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One of Marcel Tabuteau's outstanding students, Mr. Bloom, upon graduation from the Curtis Institute, became the English horn player in the Philadelphia Orchestra. He then went to the Rochester Symphony to play first oboe, leaving there to play first with Toscanini at NBC. At present he is devoting the major part of his time to the Bach Aria Group in New York City.
Post Edited (2005-11-09 15:03)
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2005-11-09 16:24
Thanks, Ken, for the article -- just what I needed!
And Howard, thanks for the exhortation about group intonation. I don't think I am in any position to lecture a certain conductor about this subject, however. I just have to make up my mind if I want to continue the adventure or not.
Susan
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Author: d-oboe
Date: 2005-11-09 21:16
What does it all mean!?
Orchestral vs. solo playing is really simple. It can be made very complicated by theories and arguments and articles and reasoning...but there's no need. It's simple - to be successful in ensemble playing you have to
KNOW WHAT YOUR VOICE IS DOING (your instrument obviously)
Plaaain and simple isn't it?
-know when to play out. When there is a soli, support, but don't overpower the principal. (If you are the principal, play out!)
On solos, it has to be made to sound as if the entire ensemble sound transfers to one voice.
-learn how to support other instruments without overpowering them. Obviously, if you have a whole note, don't blast it out while the flute tries desperately to play their melody.
Even if the soloist is playing extreeemly quietly, the supporting voice must play under.
But it all goes back to KNOWING WHAT YOUR VOICE IS DOING AT EVERY MOMENT.
Don't get carried away with a musical moment - if another voice has a more important line, it has to be supported.
Hopefully we're makin sense here!
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Author: d-oboe
Date: 2005-11-10 03:33
I will disagree with the loudness factor...not just for the sake of disagreeing, but for the sake of reinforcing better habits in younger generations....
First of all the oboe is NOT a trumpet. There is a wooden reed that makes the sound. That reed can only take so much force before it seizes - the tone will literally stop because of force. Now most people don't *try* to do this, but by forcing and blasting the tone, the same effect happens, but to a lesser degree, in that it actually makes it project LESS. (Not what we want). A projecting tone is relaxed, open and smooth. What some call "amplified pianissimo".
To play over a string section for a solo, one needn't do more than have a reed that vibrates very well, and then just relax, open up, and blow calmly. I have spoken to my colleagues who play in the symphony and they don't feel they are forcing or pushing the sound, yet, I always hear them clear as a bell. Conversely, I know other oboe players who sound incredibly loud when sitting next to them in a rehearsal, but when listening from the hall, they barely make it past the first few rows.
Some might think this to be voodoo, but it all has to do with resonance.
A solo-chamber player probably wouldn't *focus* as much on developing their resonance as a symphonic player would. This doesn't necessarily mean they don't have a dynamic range, it just means that their tone doesn't have to carry through a large hall.
Similarly, an orchestral player might not focus on the quietest of playing because it just isn't necessary in ensemble playing.
maybe this answers one of your questions Suzan?
D
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2005-11-10 14:17
<<A solo-chamber player probably wouldn't *focus* as much on developing their resonance as a symphonic player would. This doesn't necessarily mean they don't have a dynamic range, it just means that their tone doesn't have to carry through a large hall.
Similarly, an orchestral player might not focus on the quietest of playing because it just isn't necessary in ensemble playing.
maybe this answers one of your questions Suzan?>>
Thanks, d-oboe.
It is beginning to answer my questions. I love your concept of "amplified pianissimo". And I like vboboe's analogy about choral singing. And Robert Bloom's (via Ken Shaw) concept of many colors in the tone palette.
The practical question I have been trying to answer, for myself, is whether I in fact have been playing "too loud" or somehow else offensively, in an ensemble context. Or, have I simply run into a situation where a conductor is oboe-phobic.
I'm leaning toward the latter explanation.
I've only played with two other ensembles -- one larger, one smaller. In my experience with the larger group, the conductor couldn't get done praising my playing -- on my first night, he even stopped the rehearsal to exclaim to me and the ensemble how lovely my playing was, and this continued, week after week. The smaller group was a pro pick-up group functioning as a pit orchestra for a musical. Nobody said much about anybody's playing (except we all hated the trombone player) -- but they did invite me back.
So, I was really unprepared to be negatively singled out (or at least, that's how it felt). But then I started to worry that maybe there is something I'm really not doing right, and that I should question myself.
A conductor certainly has the responsibility to shape the tone color of his or her ensemble, and not every player will please every conductor. Ideally, I would like to be flexible enough to fit in as demanded. But when it gets to the point of having to, as my clarinetist friend said, "suck the tone back up the horn," it may not be worth it.
This has been a really informative thread. Thanks for the excellent comments.
Susan
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Author: d-oboe
Date: 2005-11-10 20:02
I share your laments Suzan...
Conductors can be pretty nasty sometimes....but we still have to play what they want. Heck, if enough of the orchestra members complain they might just boot the conductor!
However even when the conductor asks you to play quieter on even the softest toothpicks of reeds, you can still be expressive, and needn't feel as if you are sucking the tone back up the horn (I know EXACTLY what you mean by that!)
I like to think of my tone as being electric....there always has to be this ethereal resonance happening...then that keeps things interesting, and the music is alive..
As far as reeds, make them so that they respond very well, but that have enough resistance so that you can support the breath in very quiet moments. Also, try keeping your reeds a little more open. This will allow extreme dynamics. If the opening is too small it will be difficult to support and control quiet notes properly.
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Author: oboemelli
Date: 2005-11-11 16:22
Hello Susan,
I find that the solo oboist commonly has the "big and deep" sound. Those that fit into the orchestra better seem to be those who have a slightly more reserved sound, quiter, and sweeter, blending in well with the rest of the woodwind section.
I have a large, fat and rounded sound with an occasional overload of vibrato; and often I have been accused of being too much of a soloist for anyones particular liking (I like that comment myself though..as I do hope to be a soloist and shall prefer it that way)! Those with the soloistic sound seem to have more showy aspects of their playing than those who suite the orchestra, symphonic or not.
With Regards,
Melanie
"People imagine they can reach one another. In reality they only pass each other by"- Schubert.
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