 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2026-10-05 12:20
On my bass "middle" cis/gis is fuzzy. A method for clearing a fuzzy throat Bb is beveling the register key pad (smoothing the edges, especially on cork pads). Would this help the cis/gis as well? If so, how would this be best done on Valentino pads - like just filing or sanding?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2026-10-05 16:53
Just have the C#/G# key venting set as high as it will physically and mechanically allow as the C#/G# tonehole itself is already a compromise being too small in diameter and placed higher up the lower joint to compensate, so it'll never give a good sounding note that matches the others around it, especially in the lower register.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repairer
Single and Double Reed Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2026-10-05 22:52
lydian wrote: "Never sand and fill pads."
Really? Why ever not?
When using cork pads, then you always have to prep them by grinding or sanding the face down so it's flat and flawless, also you'll often have to sand them down to the required diameter and file the backs down to make them the required thicknesses, as well as doing all the necessary tonehole prep to ensure they seat and seal against the tonehole bedplaces/crowns.
With cork speaker key pads, they're trimmed and sanded to bevel or dome the sides of them after being installed and seated.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repairer
Single and Double Reed Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2026-10-05 22:52)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2026-10-06 10:05
>> Never sand and fill pads. <<
What do you mean by "fill"? How do you add something to a pad and why would someone do this...?
>> When using cork pads, then you always have to prep them by grinding or sanding the face down so it's flat and flawless <<
Yes but I wouldn't say "always".
I have cork pads from some sources that don't require any sanding to the face to seal perfectly.
In contrast I have some cork pads that are so rough, they are flat out unusable (pun?). They would need so much sanding and the cork itself is a bit rough, so sometimes sanding just reveals more rough texture...
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2026-10-06 11:46
Attachment: Alpha, cis-gis clearance.jpg (320k)
Unfortunately increased venting isn't possible in this case, due to a minimal clearance of just 0.3mm between the open cis/gis pad cup and the closed bridge key above it (see picture). Perhaps the only way to increase that clearance would be by grinding a recess of say 1.5mm into that bridge, but don't know how much of a difference an increased venting of the same amount at that point would make for the fuzziness (the outer edge of the key/pad would open a bit more than the inner edge closest to the bridge).
Just as a test I removed the cis/gis key completely, which cleared all fuzziness and also improved the flatness of the cis. So probably also an increased venting of a few mm would at least improve things, though maybe not be a complete cure.
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Author: donald
Date: 2026-10-06 11:53
I think "fill" was a misprint/auto correct etc and he meant "file"
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2026-10-06 12:26
Valentino pads don't feel like you could file or sand them which is why I've never even tried it. I was able to do this with a dental micromotor with polishing bits at very high speeds, but then be careful about heating them too much since they would melt.
However you could cut them. Use a very(!) sharp knife and cut a taper around, making sure to not go over the seat. It might not help, if the pad is even much larger than the tone hole... then there isn't necessarily anything to cut.
I assume it's a Backun Alpha. It already has these "valleys" outside the tone holes that are supposed to help with venting. It's a pretty good instrument but has a few small design issues...
Modifying the keys themselves to allow more venting is absolutely an option. If you don't mind the practically invisible change and/or the loss of plating (or the hassle of spot plating it) then it's completely fine to do this. On many instruments it is necessary to do things like this to get them to play the best, and in this case you only need your own consent.
Keep in mind that some keys require an absurd amount of venting to remove all the fuzziness. Meaning you might get the key to open so it's becoming uncomfortable to play and still have some of it left... but if it plays well with the key off then it should definitely possible to improve it significantly by a combination of the above methods.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2026-10-06 18:41
If there's insufficient clearance between the C#/G# cup arm and the underside of the LH2 linkage causing them to clatter, then you can always grind away some of the metal on either key to make clearance, provided you don't compromise the strength of the key.
Very often you only need to grind just the bevelled top of the cup arm to make it flat in just the areas as is necessary. Similarly with the undersides of the side Eb/Bb and F# keys on soprano clarinets if they're clattering against the C#/G# cup arm. And when removing metal by filing or grinding it away, always aim to make it look good and part of the design wherever possible.
On your bass with its Buffet Prestige style keywork, hold the C#/G# key open and the LH2 fingerplate down and using a permanent marker or a file, mark the apex of the bevel on the cup arm around 0.5mm beyond the point of contact, then grind a flat on the C#/G# cup arm leaving just the point of the cup arm remaining. You'll see this exact same recess on the C#/G# cup arm on Buffet Prestige basses.
Make sure the pads you're installing aren't too thick so they resemble horse hooves as they should be showing an even amount of sidewall all the way around when seated, although that's not always possible with Buffet's side Eb keys as they're usually wonky and never sit parallel with the toneholes.
I always grind cork pads regardless how smooth the surface may appear as they can still warp with the heat of molten shellac, so I grind them down both before and after applying shellac to the backs of them to be sure they're flat
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repairer
Single and Double Reed Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2026-10-06 18:52)
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Author: lydian
Date: 2026-10-06 19:47
Chris P wrote:
> lydian wrote: "Never sand and fill pads."
>
> Really? Why ever not?
>
OP is talking about doing this to Valentino pads, not cork. Sanding and filling would completely ruin the pad. I can't believe you'd endorse something like that. Even with cork, what would you use to "fill"? If you get the cork shape wrong, just start over with another cork. What the OP is wanting to do is completely unfeasible.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2026-10-06 21:36
You can indeed bevel the edges of Valentino pads if you really want to (I've seen Valentino 'cork' speaker key pads that got bevelled, although I'd use cork speaker key pads), but you'd have to use a sharp razor blade to do that as synthetic pads don't generally take too well to being sanded.
And besides, you're mistaking filing (done with a file, just as the OP says) with filling (not even sure what you'd use as filler, nor how you'd fill a pad) which no-one other than yourself said.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repairer
Single and Double Reed Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2026-10-07 00:58
Cis and Gis mean C# and G# respectively, just as Des, Es and Mi bemol and H mean Db, Eb, Bb and B natural in other European languages.
The Bis key on saxes is named after it being considered a secondary fingering for Bb (x'oo|ooo) with side Bb being the primary fingering as it was the only fingering for Bb on saxes before the Bis key and long Bb fingerings were added to them much later on.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repairer
Single and Double Reed Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2026-10-07 01:03)
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Author: kilo
Date: 2026-10-07 16:58
Micke Isotalo – I've noticed that the mid G# on my Alpha doesn't sound nearly as clean as the neighboring notes – it's not that noticeable in the lower register. I'm willing to live with it for now, but I'll point it out to my technician next time I take it in. I was noticing, however, that you might be able to obtain a little more venting by reducing the thickness of the felt where it bottoms out on the Eb/Bb pivot post if a thinner material can still prevent key noise.
On an unrelated Alpha topic, every bass clarinet should provide a similar adjustable stop between the upper and lower joints so the bridge key aligns perfectly. I know it's also a feature on other basses but it's the first time I've had it on one I own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2026-10-07 17:41
If the clearance between the top side of the C#/G# pad cup arm is tight against the underside of the long Bb linkage while LH2 is held down (which it s when playing C#/G#), then using thinner felt won't do anything except cause clatter whenever the C#/G# key is used, so you'd have to grind away some metal to prevent that and to increase the venting. It's a design fault and should've been addressed during finishing.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repairer
Single and Double Reed Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2026-10-08 09:52
Would it be possible to use thinner pads to gain a little more venting?
Tony F.
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Author: lydian
Date: 2026-10-08 19:08
Chris P wrote:
> You can indeed bevel the edges of Valentino pads if you really
> want to..
>
Wow. I can't believe you would destroy pads like that. Once you cut the skin, it's game over. Maybe that's how you get more money out of your customers, destroy their pads so they have to come back the next day.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2026-10-08 19:44
lydian: "Wow. I can't believe you would destroy pads like that. Once you cut the skin, it's game over. Maybe that's how you get more money out of your customers, destroy their pads so they have to come back the next day."
What?
Tell me everything you don't know about Valentino pads without telling me everything you don't know about Valentino pads.
For starters, you took a mere snippet of my reply completely out of context. Let me remind you what I said in full without skipping any bits:
"You can indeed bevel the edges of Valentino pads if you really want to (I've seen Valentino 'cork' speaker key pads that got bevelled, although I'd use cork speaker key pads), but you'd have to use a sharp razor blade to do that as synthetic pads don't generally take too well to being sanded."
There.
You still have plenty of time to delete your last reply before you make yourself look like an even bigger idiot than you already are.
Now go and do some research on Valentino pads, then come back here and apologise.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repairer
Single and Double Reed Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2026-10-09 00:38)
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Author: lydian
Date: 2026-10-09 01:51
Chris P wrote:
> lydian: "Wow. I can't believe you would destroy pads like
> that. Once you cut the skin, it's game over. Maybe that's how
> you get more money out of your customers, destroy their pads so
> they have to come back the next day."
>
> What?
>
> Tell me everything you don't know about Valentino pads without
> telling me everything you don't know about Valentino pads.
>
> For starters, you took a mere snippet of my reply completely
> out of context. Let me remind you what I said in full without
> skipping any bits:
>
> "You can indeed bevel the edges of Valentino pads if you
> really want to (I've seen Valentino 'cork' speaker key pads
> that got bevelled, although I'd use cork speaker key pads), but
> you'd have to use a sharp razor blade to do that as synthetic
> pads don't generally take too well to being sanded."
>
The OP was never talking about cork, and I was never talking about cork. You mentioned beveling cork, which is obviously harmless. Yet you doubled down on "you can indeed bevel the edges of Valentino PADS". Clarinet pads, including Valentino, are felt covered in a sort of skin or are some sort of synthetic spongy rubber material. The latter can also be beveled if they don't have a skin. But once the skin is broken on a traditional pad with a skin covering, the pad's structural integrity is ruined and likely it's sealing ability too. You've just destroyed that pad.
Corks are corks. Pads are pads. Synthetic pads are synthetic pads. You continue to insist on beveling "pads" for reasons that are beyond me. Apparently you're the one who doesn't know what a pad is, ergo, the idiot in this conversation. At least I know which techs to avoid like the plague now.
Post Edited (2026-10-09 02:06)
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Author: donald
Date: 2026-10-09 02:11
To be fair, we really shouldn't just generalise about "Valentino pads" as they now offer a couple of different varieties. The original Valentinos (with the adhesive back) were only intended for "emergency repairs", and these were also quite thick and spongy. Over the years I have seen some THOSE ones looking like beveling around the edges WOULD help venting etc (using some sort of sharp tool, but NOT by filing), but when I look at my clarinet recently repadded with a newer variety (and NOT the self adhesive ones) I can't see any places where beveling would help venting.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2026-10-09 10:22
>> To be fair, we really shouldn't just generalise about "Valentino pads" as they now offer a couple of different varieties. <<
Yes, but their "skin" pads can't really be identified once installed and I've seen no one refer to unknown skin pads as Valentino. Actually it's more common that someone says "Valentino pads" and refers to a synthetic pad that might look like Valentino but who knows what it is really is, to a lesser degree almost like Rubbermaid, Hoover, etc. They also posted a photo showing it is a Valentino synthetic pad, and these can absolutely be tapered by cutting (and/or with the high speed "polishing" bit that I mentioned) regardless of whether they are the Greenback model or the Masters model.
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2026-10-09 15:17
How about Tony F's question, using a thinner pad - maybe almost flush to the rim of the pad cup (together with bending it parallel to the tone hole surface)? Maybe a leather pad, if a cork pad of this size would be too noisy? I believe the current pad is protruding about 2.5mm above the key cup.
If this would work and make enough difference, it would be a lesser intervention than grinding metal parts.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2026-10-09 16:14
FAO lydian - tell everyone here all about your experience in the field of woodwind repair as you are clearly the only one in the room lacking basic knowledge of anything.
I've used all manner of pads since the '80s and my preference is cork, leather and synthetic pads and haven't had a single complaint from anyone about my work in all that time, besides snipers who like to think they know better and whose work is piss poor when it comes down to it.
Micke Isotalo wrote:
> How about Tony F's question, using a thinner pad - maybe almost
> flush to the rim of the pad cup (together with bending it
> parallel to the tone hole surface)? Maybe a leather pad, if a
> cork pad of this size would be too noisy? I believe the current
> pad is protruding about 2.5mm above the key cup.
>
> If this would work and make enough difference, it would be a
> lesser intervention than grinding metal parts.
Synthetic pads like Valentino Masters as used in this case can always be thinned down to match the set of the keywork by trimming or bevelling the backs of them if they're too thick. I've seen other Backun clarinets where the Valentino pads were too thick and sat unevenly in the pad cups. As they're factory assembled, that's not likely to happen and that attention to detail is only done by repairers who have the time to do more detailed work as opposed to factory workers who have limited bench time per instrument.
All it takes is bevelling the backs of them with a sharp blade or using coarse abrasive and that will allow them to sit better into the pad cups and that definitely won't be game over and destroy them as lydian seems to think. I know for fact as I've fitted Valentino pads and other synthetic pads like this in the past that were too thick and they definitely weren't destroyed, plus many instruments I know of which I've originally used these pads on are still being played with these exact same synthetic pads I installed some 25+ years on.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repairer
Single and Double Reed Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2026-10-09 17:31)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2026-10-09 17:02
lydian: "The OP was never talking about cork, and I was never talking about cork. You mentioned beveling cork, which is obviously harmless. Yet you doubled down on "you can indeed bevel the edges of Valentino PADS".
- You can bevel Valentino pads as I've mentioned and haven't 'doubled down' on anything - I've simply stated the facts which you're clueless about.
lydian: "Clarinet pads, including Valentino, are felt covered in a sort of skin or are some sort of synthetic spongy rubber material. The latter can also be beveled if they don't have a skin. But once the skin is broken on a traditional pad with a skin covering, the pad's structural integrity is ruined and likely it's sealing ability too. You've just destroyed that pad."
- WRONG! Valentino pads are made with one or several layers of synthetic foam cut out from a sheet of the stuff and aren't covered in any 'sort of skin'. They have a uniform surface to them which is smooth and airtight and definitely not a 'sort of skin' covering.
lydian: "Corks are corks. Pads are pads. Synthetic pads are synthetic pads. You continue to insist on beveling "pads" for reasons that are beyond me. Apparently you're the one who doesn't know what a pad is, ergo, the idiot in this conversation. At least I know which techs to avoid like the plague now."
- It seems all sense of reason and logic are beyond you in general. I ONLY bevel speaker key pads as standard as I use cork pads there. As I said, I have seen Valentino artificial cork pads that other repairers have used in the speaker key and they've bevelled them, but I don't use Valentino pads there as I use cork pads.
And having several decades of experience as a woodwind specialist plus working as a finisher for not just one but two of the world's top oboe makers, I know a fucksight more about pads than you do, so scuttle off back under that rock you live under. What have you done? Your experience is zilch given what little you like to pretend to know. You're the last person I'd ever want to do any work for and will insist you don't ever darken my door. Remain blissfully ignorant, you absolute twonk.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repairer
Single and Double Reed Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2026-10-09 18:00)
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Author: farabout
Date: 2026-10-09 17:30
lydian has an established reputation of being a know-everything-with-zero-experience kinda guru:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=522079&t=522079
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2026-10-09 17:36
lydian still has plenty of time to leave the building, making sure the door doesn't hit them on the arse on the way out.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repairer
Single and Double Reed Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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The Clarinet Pages
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) I was familiar with the bis key nomenclature but didn't really know from where its named was derived.![[C#4]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/db4.gif)
and ![[G#5]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/ab5.gif)
normally located at the bottom of the top joint of soprano clarinets, but does this "is" suffix have special meaning in the clarinet or instrument world?
