 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ruben
Date: 2024-04-04 12:52
If there is little or zero chance of your bore cracking because it never has, is it worth oiling the bore? Does oiling the bore have other, more acoustic, virtues? Thank you.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: kdk
Date: 2024-04-04 17:47
I've never heard anyone advocating bore oiling for acoustic reasons. My knee-jerk reaction is that any oil that isn't completely absorbed and then buffed to a shine might actually change the bore surface to have more of a damping effect on the sound. But that's only an intuitive response, not a scientifically informed one.
I don't think you can go all the way to saying there's ever a zero chance of a bore's cracking, but I'd say my 40+ year-old instruments that have never cracked have little chance if I don't do something really stupid to expose them to extreme, sudden temperature changes.
I've never oiled either of them, though, so I can't say if oiling them might have maintained or improved their acoustic properties. On the other hand, for anyone who just wants to do SOMEthing active beyond swabbing to maintain his instruments, I don't think oiling can hurt if it's done properly. So, I guess, there's that value - user comfort and satisfaction - that might recommend it. 
Karl
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Author: ruben
Date: 2024-04-04 18:59
Karl, Thank you for one of your, as usual, well-thought out remarks. As you said, I shouldn't think my instrument is any danger of cracking (maybe I am! -of cracking up. ha, ha!), but its bore looks like a dried-up river bed in Arizona. When I look at younger instruments, their bore is nice and shiny. Once again, I don't know what effect this has on tone. Maybe Chris P has a few thoughts about this.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: kdk
Date: 2024-04-04 21:29
ruben wrote:
> ...but
> its bore looks like a dried-up river bed in Arizona. When I
> look at younger instruments, their bore is nice and shiny. Once
> again, I don't know what effect this has on tone. Maybe Chris P
> has a few thoughts about this.
>
If it's that rough-looking, oiling it might make the condensation flowing down the bore form into tighter droplets that could stand a better chance of missing a vital tone hole.
Karl
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Author: m1964
Date: 2024-04-04 22:30
I had clarinets with the bore that looked like "dried-up river bed" and they played fine, and others that had bore looking like it was polished yesterday and they were not good players.
My Prestige A (bought about 1.5 years ago) has bore that does not look polished well, however it plays very well- both tuning and tone-wise...
With manufacturers using high pressure to treat the wood, the oiling may not be needed but I oiled every new clarinet I got (as well as old dried up ones) and never had a crack (yet).
However, it may have been the result of slowly breaking in those instruments and not from oiling them. Definitely works for (my) piece of mind
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Author: David Eichler
Date: 2024-04-04 23:13
There are different opinions about whether oiling the bore is effective. Buffet does not recommend it. However, there is a practical reason. If you apply bore oil selectively within the bore, it can direct water away from the tone holes, so there is less chance of gurgling.
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2024-04-05 04:26
As previously highlighted with the researched facts oiling the bore does zero to change how much a clarinet absorbs water. The research also highlighted the potential negative effects of oiling "If" the clarinet absorbed oil it can only add stress/tension to the wood. The research also highlighted the very superficial absorption of oil and moisture. As always players choice and happy to share the facts. Many opinions, but those opinions should be supported were reasonable with facts.
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2024-04-05 05:27
crazyclari wrote:
> As previously highlighted with the researched facts oiling the
> bore does zero to change how much a clarinet absorbs water. The
> research also highlighted the potential negative effects of
> oiling "If" the clarinet absorbed oil it can only add
> stress/tension to the wood. The research also highlighted the
> very superficial absorption of oil and moisture. As always
> players choice and happy to share the facts. Many opinions, but
> those opinions should be supported were reasonable with facts.
What research? Without sources cited this is just more opinion/hearsay.
Personally, I oil my clarinets from time to time to mitigate emergent tendencies for gurgles, and because, as far I know, it might help and won't harm the wood. I'd be very curious to see this research about potential harm proper oiling could do.
Oiling the entire bore seems to reset the moisture trails that cause recurrent gurgling. Trying to apply it in spots for the this purpose always seemed a bit much to me. A periodic reset is easier and more efficient.
Anders
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2024-04-05 11:08
Hi I last provided this info on this site about two weeks ago. As mentioned in my earlier post I am happy to share this info. I would note this is not hearsay without a factual basis but an opinion. Hearsay is saying someone else said something Yes I am happy to provide the research. Do you have an email address
As I previously tried to upload it. Petroleum jelly is another thing that is used. As mentioned players choice. The research is now about 60 years old, long enough ago to be shared and well known.
Post Edited (2024-04-05 11:21)
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2024-04-05 11:18
My main reason for oiling is preservation, where my reasoning goes as follows.
All wooden objects in regular contact with water, such as outdoors furniture, boats etc, if not painted, lacquered or similarly protected, should be oiled regularly for an extended lifespan. The harder and denser Grenadilla is surely in itself more resistant against moisture induced decay compared to other more common woods, but it's still wood.
Even outdoor wooden constructions impregnated with the most potent (and poisonous) chemicals are eventually decaying and rotting away - though lasting lot longer than untreated wood (believe me, just last summer I teared down such an outdoor, impregnated structure falling into pieces).
If oiling doesn't help preserving Grenadilla (or help against cracking), why would clarinet makers bother about it (those using pressurized oil are only speeding up the absorption, which of course doesn't go beyond a full saturation provided also by a simple oil bath, just taking longer)?
Some clarinet makers may use an oil formula "sticking" to the wood for longer than such as just pure linseed or almond oil, but in my experience any kind of oil treatment eventually gets "washed out". For me, a bore not absorbing further oil is "safe", but once it starts absorbing it means the original protective treatment has started dissolving.
My view on this was further strengthened once when encountering a second hand Buffet Elite for sale, with a more or less "rotten" upper joint upper tenon - coloured light brown/yellowish and with a spongy texture. Don't know if this instrument had been particularly ill treated (as habitually left assembled after playing) or not, but to me it also illustrated that whatever preservative treatment Buffet had given it at the factory, it lasted only for a limited time.
When it comes to oiling recommendations from manufacturers, I think we should also bear in mind that a longest possible life span for an instrument may not be at their core interests - and maybe more concerning "mass producers" (such as Buffet) than smaller makers (putting more of their heart and soul into each product). Preventing any problem during warranty time (such as cracking) would of course be a top priority, but not necessarily anything after that. Manufacturers not recommending oiling may also weigh in the potential "mess" careless oiling could make, such as pads becoming oiled, mechanics getting stuck, etc.
Post Edited (2024-04-05 11:38)
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2024-04-05 11:40
Happy to provide the research. Oil does in the words of research provides no statistical difference in preventing the absorption of moisture.
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2024-04-05 11:58
crazyclari, what's the problem when you tried uploading that research paper? I think the size limit for an attachment here is 1.5MB, and for some reason also the file name must be quite short (don't know the exact limit, but maybe not more than 18-20 characters something). You can trim the file name by yourself, before uploading.
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2024-04-05 13:13
Thanks for thought been there and done all that. Happy to email etc it is all pretty factual evidence. I have similar concerns as described above about quality of horns and finish. Re Pretty much if the wood was spongey as above. On a clarinet the research highlights that the layer of absorbed water/oil is very very thin. Spongey wood was likely something that should have been rejected very very early in the manufacturing process. Again happy to share well researched info.
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Author: JTJC
Date: 2024-04-05 13:31
Hi Glen. You haven't provided an email address in your profile, so hard to ask for a copy other than like this. I'd like a copy.
Thanks
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2024-04-05 17:00
I've seen research about oil barely being absorbed. It was interesting but didn't seem (to me) to seal the door on the question, and additional reading provided less certainty, not more.
How much anecdotal data is there? How many people have had a bore-oiled clarinet crack? Maybe ICA should do a survey.
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Author: m1964
Date: 2024-04-05 20:07
Philip Caron wrote:
> I've seen research about oil barely being absorbed. It was
> interesting but didn't seem (to me) to seal the door on the
> question, and additional reading provided less certainty, not
> more.
>
> How much anecdotal data is there? How many people have had a
> bore-oiled clarinet crack? Maybe ICA should do a survey.
Philip,
I wonder how much cracking problem is overblown, partially by ourselves...
It is widely known that a crack by itself does not affect the play-ability of an instrument. Esp. if it was properly fixed and is not going to expand.
It does affect the re-sale value so those buying clarinets with a crack actually benefit from lower prices.
Regarding oiling: I bought a very small bottle of Sweet Almond oil at a local pharmacy for something like $6-7. Next time, I bought a much larger bottle of Sweet Almond oil from Amazon, for about the same money.
Even though it has the same name, the oil from Amazon is much thicker than the oil I bought at the pharmacy.
I doubt that such thick oil will penetrate grenadilla so not sure how much benefit it provides, except for my piece of mind
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Author: ruben
Date: 2024-04-05 21:03
A industrial chemist told me to mix the almond oil with alcohol. Otherwise, according to him, it won't penetrate. I can't remember the proprtions of alcohol versus almond oil though.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2024-04-06 03:07
I have now turned on my email address. The research clearly highlights oiling has no statistical impact on water absorption. As mentioned it also highlighted the very superficial absorption of oil and moisture. Nice bit of research, thanks for that. I will a proper read. If you have a link to that other research would be great.
Post Edited (2024-04-06 03:39)
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2024-04-06 09:01
Not too sure about your industrial chemists advice. Likely the alcohol e.g. mehyl alcohol would evaporate off very quickly then back to stage one, wood that basically does not absorb oil.
Post Edited (2024-04-06 09:07)
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2024-04-06 12:31
Attachment: Wurlitzer surface oil.jpg (142k)
Glen, you could send your research paper also to me - thank you.
Here is another study (from 2013) titled "Efficacy of linseed- and tung-oil-treated wood against wood-decay fungi and water uptake": https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0964830513002928
One of its conclusions tells: "Oil treated wood takes up less water during laboratory tests, as well as during outdoor testing."
Interestingly it also says: "After a long period of soaking in water, wood treated with water repellents usually retains similar amounts of water and swells to the same extent as untreated wood. However, most wood in use class 2 applications (above ground covered) and use class 3 (above ground uncovered) is exposed to weathering for limited periods only, and water repellents perform well in such conditions. One of the most important advantages of water repellents is that they do not generally seal the surface of the wood and therefore they allow the wood to dry after precipitation."
However, this study was conducted only on Norway spruce and beech wood, not Grenadilla (African blackwood) - so maybe the latter could be different?
The following other study (from 2016) titled "Distribution and penetration of tung oil in wood studied by magnetic resonance microscopy" says: "Tung oil, similarly as other oils, does not penetrate deeply into wood, due to its high viscosity. In order to improve the penetration of oil into wood, a vacuum-pressure procedure has to be applied."
That would indicate I'm wrong about an oil bath just taking longer than pressurized oil to saturate wood - but I'm still wondering how my clarinets can "sweat" oil right trough the body wall to its outside surface (see attachment), when only the bore has been well oiled and the instrument gets well warmed up?
See https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0926669016308123
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Author: crazyclari
Date: 2024-04-09 05:17
Hi,
Thanks for asking for the study John, it should have winged its way to you by now.
The study I am talking about used grenadilla wood provided by Carl Fisher and tested by the head of the acoustics laboratory of Paris university E Leiff. Pretty solid and ancient 1967, but totally relevant.
I cannot say why your clarinet 'sweats' a guess would be that clarinets absorb and settle at the relative humidity. Change one of those factors heat, humidity, etc and the humidity of the clarinet will try and equalise to the relative environment.
E.g sweat in a similar process to osmotic pressure. Thats a guess, why not do some research.
On another note, would people be interested in a page about the research that has been done. My thought would be for people to put up relevant random research.
Personally, I have seen many 'opinions' and the facts would be of much better value to the reader.
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