 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2023-06-16 22:52
I have "no dog in this fight."
I'm currently trying to transition from years of single to double lip play and am at the point where I don't need anything on my teeth to prevent pain.
I cannot play my entire practice session double lip, but that's not a pain issue but rather a facial muscle fatigue issue. At first covering my front top teeth was indicated when first taking on this transition, but I'm passed that need.
At that point of fatigue in my practice session I switch over to single lip, which is not only not the worse for wear having played double lip, I'll argue that it's better as result of my double lip efforts.
I don't play as well, yet, with double lip, but I am NOT a double lip hater.
With this preamble, I wish to know why, if double lip is better, why, as mouthpieces transitioned years ago from the reed on top to the reed on bottom, so to did embouchures from double to single lip?
I have a theory and that's because single lip allows better muscling of imperfections in imbalanced reeds, but that theory could be wrong or the reasons for the paradigm change multifactorial.
What say you?
TIA
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Author: kdk
Date: 2023-06-17 00:13
SecondTry wrote:
> I cannot play my entire practice session double lip, but that's
> not a pain issue but rather a facial muscle fatigue issue.
You may be exerting too much pressure - which can happen easily if your reeds are stiff or unbalanced enough to make them hard to control.
>
> At that point of fatigue in my practice session I switch over
> to single lip, which is not only not the worse for wear having
> played double lip, I'll argue that it's better as result of my
> double lip efforts.
That was the whole point of Bonade, Gigliotti, and others of that lineage. They didn't play double lip but modeled their single lip embouchures on double lip - especially the part about pulling the upper lip against the teeth instead of actually bringing it underneath the them - or letting the upper lip slide more forward, away from the teeth.
> With this preamble, I wish to know why, if double lip is
> better,
This is not a universally accepted premise.
> ...why, as mouthpieces transitioned years ago from the
> reed on top to the reed on bottom, so to did embouchures from
> double to single lip?
Only *some* players. That it was possible with the reed on the bottom to put your teeth on the mouthpiece peak allowed single lip to develop, but it obviously didn't force it or cause the extinction of double lip.
> I have a theory and that's because single lip allows better
> muscling of imperfections in imbalanced reeds, but that theory
> could be wrong or the reasons for the paradigm change
> multifactorial.
>
> What say you?
I actually disagree. *I* can play on much less perfect reeds double lip. I think because if something about the reed - too hard or not well balanced - needs more pressure to control it or even make it vibrate, *I'm* much more likely to close the reed with single lip because I'm more likely to bite using jaw pressure.
Others' result may (probably will) be different.
Karl
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Author: lydian
Date: 2023-06-17 00:21
To me, double lip is adding an unnecessary control point to the top of the mouthpiece where it is not needed. All that needs to be controlled is the lip to reed surface. Woodwinds work perfectly fine with the top of the mouthpiece anchored to the head via the top teeth. Putting anything in between, whether it's a patch or flesh, simply dampens the vibrations (important feedback, IMO) and creates another point on your body that can potentially become injured or painful.
Millions of players successfully play single lip. Relatively few play double lip, for reasons I've never been able to fathom.
If you need to protect your teeth, use a patch. If you love double lip above all else, switch to oboe where the two lips actually do control two reed surfaces.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-06-17 01:00
I remember feeling that there was a big difference back in college when I switched. I used WAY too much pressure with my single lip embouchure so the transition and time I spent on double lip was uncomfortable, but doable. What I found for myself back then was that double lip strongly encouraged a much more subtle style and sound......compared to how I "muscled" the reed/mouthpiece with single lip embouchure.
Today I have a much lighter approach to single lip (I use the lightest possible reed that can play robustly and for long periods up to a full day of rehearsals and practice sessions). I can also freely move from single to double lip on the fly. Unfortunately, there is really not much difference at all to the sound or style when I do this. I believe that it is because now I have those qualities in my single lip playing. I stick mostly with single lip because that is what I have done for most of my years playing but also because I find single lip a more stable platform. I do tend to move around when I play and double lip tends to let the clarinet shake too much.
It might be worth noting that in a masterclass Clark Brody (a past principal clarinet of the Chicago Symphony) was asked about double lip. He said he thought it was worthy technique that he wished he could use but said that it was too late in his career to do so.
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: lydian
Date: 2023-06-17 01:20
If using double lip temporarily teaches you to stop biting, then yes, it's a very worthy technique.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-06-17 03:15
I have to disagree strongly with that statement. Pain is not a worthy teacher. If you happen to bite down on your mouthpiece, you MUST first learn to play much lighter BEFORE you attempt double lip.
The part I left out of the above story was that it did NOT reform the biting and I abandoned double lip after about a year or so.
………..Paul Aviles
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2023-06-17 04:29
Couldn't much (not all) of the double lip debate boil down to biological differences between various players? I think it is Tony Pay who pointed out the length of the upper lip (or something like that - I can't find the exact post right now) can play a role. I would think existing muscle structure or nerve sensitivity/routing would also play a role. Jaw structure, nasal structure. Facial muscles, etc.
If I have a size 10 foot, I had probably better not try to force it into a size 8 boot - even if everyone I know wears a size 8 boot and runs the way I want to run.
Quote:
I have a theory and that's because single lip allows better muscling of imperfections in imbalanced reeds, but that theory could be wrong or the reasons for the paradigm change multifactorial.
I'd suggest a thorough search of the bboard for Tony Pay's take on the topic of sl vs dl. Here's one of Tony's posts that I think touches on the topic (at least indirectly):
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=437993&t=437833
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-06-17 09:56
I think Fuzzy has something there with differences between players.
I did grade 1 - 3 single lip, and it was fine. Then after having covid, during the first lockdown, I found I could no longer play single lip without severe pain in my cheeks.
I can now only play double lip, but double lip feels really good, and comfortable and natural to me.
I kind of think maybe it was some kind of muscle damage that caused that change, because I also lost 15lbs in weight, and a lot of strength in my legs and in other muscles in my body.
I'm now in the process of doing strength training to try to get that strength back, but it's really complicated, because some of the loss of strength was from really weird places, where it's hard to isolate the muscle to exercise it.
For example, how do you isolate the muscles of the face to strength train them one at a time? I really don't know that.
Oddly though, I do find that playing double lip changes the muscles in my whole upper body. When I engage my upper lip, it changes the instinctive use of my arms too, and I feel as though my upper body forms a ring around the instrument.
I could totally get that I am doing something wrong, or have some muscle problem that stops me being able to play single lip, and would be very interested to know what it is and how to fix it.
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Author: donald
Date: 2023-06-17 14:25
While the size and shape of the top lip certainly has a big effect on how comfortable (or possible) double lip playing is for you, the most significant factor is what Dave Etheridge used to refer to as "muscle flow"
There are two major embouchure types, with contrasting muscle flow.
- one where the muscle flow is closing the jaw on the mouthpiece. "biting". The jaw is actively closing on the mouthpiece as though it is holding or grasping it.
- one where the muscle flow of the jaw is moving away from the top jaw. This is the classic "flat chin", the mouth is held actively in an open position (as the upper teeth/jaw can't move, the only way you can fit a round shape into your mouth is by opening it, so in this sense the lower jaw is "creating the round" where the interface between clarinet and head is).
If you fall into the first category, double lip will be difficult. If you fall into the later, all other things equal (and your lip can easily cover your teeth) you will be able to play double lip much more easily.
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2023-06-23 06:34
Since the first note I played on clarinet (age 9) was double lip. I’m 63 years old, played double lip on Polka band gigs as a kid (standing up), spent 20 years in a special military band playing double lip, including marching parades, double lip is easy to play on the parade field and last weekend played a continuous 5 hour Chasidic Jewish wedding, double lip and standing. Double lip has never been an issue. Here are a few of my observations about starting and playing double lip.
1. If you’re playing a set up that requires that you use a lot lip pressure on the reed, if you wrap your top lip under your top teeth, you are still going to use the same amount of pressure to make it work. If you’re going to try double lip talk to someone who plays it and get a recommendation for a set up. Most double lippers play set ups that are incredibly easy to make a sound on.
2. IT IS POSSIBLE TO BITE using double lip. The same callus you got on the bottom lip you will get on your top lip and you will be on the spiral of bitting and using harder reeds and blowing harder. After I got out of the Army I figured out that I was using too much jaw pressure and it took a few month get my “resonance” back.
3, French embouchure (double lip) is not just a top lip thing it’s tongue position(forward coning) soft pallet position, I think it’s a “less air” amount, with more velocity thing. And the most important thing Is it’s a concept of how to play and phrase.
Tom Puwalski
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-06-23 12:56
Hi Tom,
Thank you for explaining all that.
Would it be okay if I ask how you manage with high notes?
I also play double lip, standing, but I am struggling a bit with getting my high notes in tune. Is it just a matter of training the obicularis oris muscle until it is really strong?
I did try going back to single lip, but then I definitely bite.
I know some people can improve their SL embourchure by spending time on DL. I've tried that, and as soon as I go back to SL my obicularis oris muscle gives up and I bite the clarinet with the force coming from the masseter muscles.
Thanks!
Adult learner, Grade 3
Equipment: Yamaha Custom CX Bb, Fobes 10K CF mp,
Legere Bb clarinet European Cut #2.5, Vandoren Optimum German Lig.
Post Edited (2023-06-23 14:10)
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Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2023-06-23 16:56
I was introduced to double lip later in my clarinet playing years. For me, I am sold on the changes DL produced in me:
An improved, beautiful tone I really like.
No bunched-up chin.
Longer durability.
Air very, very rarely spews out of the corners of my mouth if I have played for an extended time. DL has been a game-changer for me and I’ve used it exclusively on clarinet for the past 14 years.
When making the switch, I played slow, lyrical passages DL and faster, staccato phrases SL. Eventually, I was able to employ DL all the time. If my top lip gets uncomfortable at all, I roll my top lip up toward my gums for the DL effect but with my teeth on the mouthpiece.
Good luck on your DL journey!
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2023-06-23 20:22
Hi SunnyDaze. You do not need additional pressure from your embouchure for high notes.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-06-23 23:45
Hi Philip.
Thank you for answering. Does that mean that I am not using enough air, and am compensating by using additional embouchure pressure, when I should actually keep my embouchure the same and blow harder?
Thanks!
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-06-24 00:46
Ok, I feel a need to point out that this is a matter of telling yourself that this is not biting.
If one would be capable of pushing up only on the front teeth you might have a point. However, despite there being no added jaw pressure via your jaw muscles, what is happening in the described "pushing up" is that you ARE squeezing more of the reed/mouthpiece by shoving more of it between your teeth.
A rose by any other name...............
............Paul Aviles
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2023-06-24 06:29
I would recommend Tom Ridenour’s videos on Learning French embouchure. I agree with everything as he lays it out. That is except for the amount of mouthpiece one addresses in the mouth, I feel that’s dependant on the over bite or underbite and type and facing of mouthpiece. But using oblique pressure from “snugging” in to a mouth opening that isn’t closing against the reed works really well. Tom explains that in the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9flldallSrk
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2023-06-24 07:02
Paul Aviles wrote:
> Ok, I feel a need to point out that this is a matter of telling
> yourself that this is not biting.
>
>
> If one would be capable of pushing up only on the front teeth
> you might have a point. However, despite there being no added
> jaw pressure via your jaw muscles, what is happening in the
> described "pushing up" is that you ARE squeezing more of the
> reed/mouthpiece by shoving more of it between your teeth.
>
>
>
> A rose by any other name...............
>
>
>
>
> ............Paul Aviles
>
Hi Paul:
I completely agree that when the mouth opening doesn't change in size, but ever more of the mouthpiece is placed into it by even the gentle upward pressure of the right thumb, that if we could measure our mouth's pressure on the mouthpiece it would simply have to increase by such action.
To conclude otherwise defies science.
Where people though may disagree with the idea of your reference to this being biting, and I'll be the first to agree that it's semantics, is the idea that this upper pressure by the thumb simply causes a slight increase in our mouth's snug against the mouthpiece, rather than the increased jaw pressure one might associate with biting: a process where the mouth opening gets smaller while the mouthpiece tends to stay where it is (or maybe more of it is inserted into the mouth as well.)
Granted, greater pressure against the mouthpiece by the mouth, whether in the form of jaw muscle pressure, or sticking more mouthpiece in the mouth, or both all increase pressure against the mouthpiece and reed, but its subtleness perhaps lies outside the more active process of jaw clamping we associate with biting, like when chewing food.
As Tom P cites, Tom Ridenour talks of brining the mouthpiece to the mouth, never the mouth to the mouthpiece, and refers to it as snugging.
I know, potato, "potahto," but I think there is some difference.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-06-24 19:54
Hi Tom,
Thank you very much for mentioning Tom Ridenour’s videos. I just watched the two on DL and the long one on reed balancing and it was very helpful indeed.
I normally balance the two sides, but much more quickly and casually than he does it. I rarely sand the tip, and never the base.
I will start taking a great deal more care over my reed balancing and see where that gets me.
I noticed that Tom also keeps a cover on his top teeth, which he doesnt' talk about at all, but does mention at one point that it's to prevent pain, so that's useful to know.
I get what everybody means by the various methods of changing the embouchure above C6. However, I'm nowhere near C6 yet, so I can defintely do some work on things to improve my technique. It's A4 where I get in difficulties, and it's so entrenched that I tighten my jaw muscles even when I type the name of the note, so I have some work to do.
Thanks for all the advice.
Jennifer
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2023-06-24 21:03
Hi SunnyDaze. C6 is two ledger lines above the staff. A4 is a throat tone. There's a depiction of C4 next to the name of this group at the top of the page. Not sure if you intended to refer to altissimo.
My experience is as follows. Discount it as you will for my long journey of self-teaching.
The tongue gets you clean and beautiful high notes. You don't need to add embouchure pressure from any direction to play them - assuming you maintain consistent air pressure, jaw involvement, and tongue involvement. Done adequately, seamless legato slurs back and forth between C7 and any lower notes is easy and natural, with no change to the jaw at all (and no pressing in/out from the right thumb.
If you want to add more strident edge to high note sound, jaw pressure will do it. In most contexts that can sound relatively harsh. Usually one might avoid that if possible, but it's common.
What I've worked on as I've extended my altissimo is to a) do whatever needed to get the note to play, then b) figure out how to make it sound beautiful. That's how, over a long time, I came to avoid jaw pressure: it's not needed, and it worsens the sound. Such pressure actually adds edge to the sound in other registers too, but usually then it's less objectionable or even noticeable (until you're always listening for it!)
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Author: HighWood
Date: 2023-06-24 21:03
In one of his videos, Tom Ridenour mentions using kitchen parchment to cover top teeth.
John Gibbs
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-06-24 21:19
Hi Philip,
Sorry, you're right I meant A5, just above the staff.
I think I am going to need to do a lot of experimentation to understand what you mean. I will do my best. Thank you for explaining.
Jennifer
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2023-06-25 00:02
To quote Philip:
Quote:
a) do whatever needed to get the note to play, then b) figure out how to make it sound beautiful
To me, this advice is the most important secret to learning to play the clarinet (not just altissimo).
I think the second secret is to find an instructor who guides you through the discovery process - but allows you to think through the problem (and come up with the solution) on your own. The goal should always be "understanding" not just "replication."
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2023-06-25 14:08
The reasons to avoid double lip are well established. Firstly, without teeth in contact with the top of the mouthpiece the instrument will move in the mouth when fingers are active - not good! Stabilisation is crucial.
Secondly, many have argued that articulation speed is reduced as the mouth is now more open with double lip.
I remember using double lip until around the age of 16 as I had read a tutor book which suggested it. I think it was the first Tune a Day tutor, God help me! My first teacher didn't spot what I was doing but a later professor at Trinity College, London weaned me of it over about 10 days. Until then I suffered much pain in the top lip from the effects of the top teeth carving ruts inside my top lip!
I can see no good reason to resurrect the double lip embouchure which seemed to originate because the first clarinettists transitioned from the oboe. Those that suggest it avoids some kind of 'biting' are obviously not playing correctly to start with!
At this time there seem to be many young, and not so young players starting to look back with nostalgia at old playing techniques and also old, outdated equipment. The latter was probably great in its day but with modern design and tolerances being so much improved I believe these moves are misplaced.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-06-25 14:31
Hi symphony1010,
How do you manage to get the right pressure with your top teeth, without having pain in the muscles in your cheeks (which I assume are the masseter muscles)?
Jennifer
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-06-25 15:14
Masseter muscles are your chewing muscles. If you are experiencing pain with the chewing muscles there is real problem with the embouchure.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-06-25 15:45
Hi Paul,
Yes that's what I thought, both about the muscles, and about there being a problem.
Those muscles don't hurt when I eat and they certainly get plenty of practise at that.
But something in that area hurts a lot, immediately, when I engage a SL embouchure. I'm really not sure what's going on there.
Jennifer
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Author: kdk
Date: 2023-06-25 17:40
SunnyDaze wrote:
> But something in that area hurts a lot, immediately, when I
> engage a SL embouchure. I'm really not sure what's going on
> there.
This is the kind of thing an in-person teacher (or even one over Zoom) could possibly diagnose more reliably and more quickly.
Where is the pain?
Are you thrusting your jaw forward in any way when you form your SL embouchure? If so you could be pulling the TMJ out of alignment and aggravating a TMJ problem that normally isn't severe enough for you to notice.
Is the pain shooting through your upper front teeth? Try a thicker rubber patch (or try a patch if you don't currently use one).
Karl
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2023-06-25 17:50
There should be no pain in your cheeks with any embouchure. There should also e no pressure from your top teeth on the mouthpiece - they simply rest there.
As kdk says, it sounds like a consultation with a teacher would help here.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-06-25 17:57
Hi Karl,
I just tried it and I think this is what is going on:
I have no overbite at all . When my jaw is relaxed and I move my lower jaw up and down, the tips of my incisors click together.
With SL I am pulling my lower jaw a long way back towards my ears in order to make space for the mp. I keep my chin parallel to the floor and pull my jaw back to let the mp into my mouth. (with apologies to Fuzzy for the wording).
Conversely, when I play DL I tip my head forward a little so my chin points slightly towards the floor. Then the clarinet can go into my mouth easily. When my jaw muscles are completely relaxed, my upper and lower incisors meet tip-to-tip and I keep this state of relaxation when I engage the DL embouchure. I don't move my jaw at all, but only engage the obicularis oris muscle.
I think it is the pulling back of my jaw that hurts in the SL embouchure.
With the DL the embouchure it doesn't hurt really. But it is an effort to engage it, and it runs out of steam after about ten minutes. After that the muscles just won't engage any more even if I only have four bars to go. The whole system suddenly just goes dead on me, as my arms do after using a strimmer for too long.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2023-06-25 19:34
SunnyDaze wrote:
> I have no overbite at all . When my jaw is relaxed and I move
> my lower jaw up and down, the tips of my incisors click
> together.
>
> With SL I am pulling my lower jaw a long way back towards my
> ears in order to make space for the mp.
> > Conversely, when I play DL I tip my head forward a little so my
> chin points slightly towards the floor. Then the clarinet can
> go into my mouth easily.
>
> I think it is the pulling back of my jaw that hurts in the SL
> embouchure.
>
> With the DL the embouchure it doesn't hurt really. But it is an
> effort to engage it, and it runs out of steam after about ten
> minutes.
So, in the SL embouchure, you're distorting your lower jaw position and stressing the muscles, maybe now to the extent that they're inflamed to begin with and the stress immediately aggravates it.
In DL, you may be putting unnatural stress on your neck muscles and (perhaps) nerves and they aren't conditioned to it (and maybe won't ever be).
One thing you don't mention is changing the angle of the instrument itself (and consequently the mouthpiece) as it enters your mouth. Have you tried reducing or increasing the instrument angle? Tipping your head forward for DL goes in that direction, but maybe there's a better angle if you experiment. Keep your head facing straight forward and move the bell higher and lower to see if you can find a comfortable position. Professional players angle the instrument anywhere from practically against their abdomen to almost parallel to the floor (sometimes even changing their angle for different color effects or maybe to accommodate reeds). With your top and bottom incisors so even, an angle going more straight out (more like many oboists but not quite so much) might work better for you.
But, again, if you experiment with this, a live and knowledgeable listener/watcher in the room could evaluate the resulting sound far better than people exchanging messages over the Internet can.
Karl
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-06-25 21:20
Hi Karl,
I just tried it again and I think I need to do a whole truck load of experiments. I only just saw Tom Ridenour's video about balancing reeds, and I need to try that, and then think again about my jaw position in both SL and DL.
I don't know how to find a good teacher in person here, but Paul Aviles has been very kindly looking at videos that I send offlist. I will do a lot of work here and see what I can figure out, and then maybe ask Paul. (Thank you very much to Paul for all the kind help!)
Thanks!
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-06-26 13:12
Attachment: scale_0.mp3 (1048k)
Hi,
I wondered if it would be okay to report back what I found in case it helps the other learners?
I just tried doing the reed balancing thing that I learned from Tom Ridenour's video and it really helped a lot with both SL and DL.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKtqNBDNlyM&t=2s
The reed needed its tip sanding, and the sides needed a lot of work to be balance, and then I extended the flexible part of the side of the reed right down to the base of the diagonal cut part of the reed. It is now much more responsive and I don't need to pinch nearly so hard with either embouchure.
I took a lot of wood off a 1.5 reed which must make it very soft indeed, but I don't think it is flat in the altissimo. I recorded a scale so you can hear.
Sorry the scale is a bit random.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-06-26 13:16
To return to the subject:
I wonder if this means that part of the popularity of SL is a combination of player anatomical differences as Fuzzy suggests, but also a lack of detailed reed balancing?
Maybe in the absence of a really well balanced reed, anatomical differences between players have a much bigger effect, and cause people to have strong preferences between SL and DL?
FWIW, I think I still have to play DL.
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2023-06-26 14:59
I don't wish to sound rude but softening a 1.5 reed is really not going to help unless you have a very unusual mouthpiece.
I am a professional player and I would urge you to disregard the Ridenour videos and consult a good, mainstream teacher.
The reed manufacturers have already developed products that work well with standard mouthpieces and these days very little adjustment is necessary to produce superb results - things have improved dramatically in the last 10 years.
You are seriously overthinking the issues. These days I can hand a student a standard Vandoren BD5 mouthpiece together with strength 3 V12 or 21 reeds and they are good to go if the instrument is working correctly.
In days gone by it would have been a B45 because that was usually the mouthpiece the likes of Buffet chose for final testing. In the UK we use A=440 instruments from Buffet but you may well have 442 in which case you may need a series 13. Judging by your sound clip you are needing a firmer reed that will take support required to play in the centre of the note in all registers.
After reading all this I'm sure you will feel somewhat confused. Don't take my word for any of this but, as I said earlier, find a good, mainstream teacher. One who does not follow novelty for its own sake or is hung up on some theory that few others support.
Good luck!
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-06-27 17:53
I caught this exchange late. After just reading the texts of the posts I wanted to be an apologist for Tom Ridenour. He had designed Leblanc clarinets for many years and has success with his own line of hard rubber clarinets. He also has a series of clarinet repair videos that are helpful getting people started fixing their own horns.
however
Once I saw this reed video I was a bit shocked. The reed sanding demonstration looks more like a Home Depot YouTube video (or worse Home Improvement.....the show on the tele). It is FAR too easy to get the wrong idea about how much sanding is going on here. Reed work (if one does that sort of thing) is a delicate matter. Too much reduction with sanding will turn a reed into just a piece of paper. I would strongly recommend avoiding THIS particular video and treat it as the outlier that it is.
Reed adjusting is best done with reed knife or maybe a curved X-acto knife where you work on SPECIFIC REGIONS and not treat the reed like a 2x4. That was not Tom's proudest moment. At very least the images can easily give too many folks the wrong idea about "fine tuning" a reed.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2023-06-27 18:34
If you are constantly making large adjustments to reeds then, logically, you've chosen the wrong reed/mouthpiece combination!
Makers spend vast sums on reed and mouthpiece design and these days many mouthpieces are aimed at specific reed choice.
All I ever need to do is very slightly ease a reed with wet and dry 400 sandpaper around the 3rd or 4th day of blowing it in. This will be done by placing the sandpaper on a perfectly flat surface and just pulling the reed back on it a few times. I roll up small pieces of 400 to work on the sides of the reed and try not to go to the heart or tip of the reed unless it's much harder than desired.
If you can't find a reasonably high proportion of reeds working out of the box with just these few adjustments I would suggest the combination is not correct for you.
I use 3 mouthpieces that are aimed at a Vandoren V12 3.0 reed. A Walter Grabner 'Virtuoso' (the older Zinner blank that he can't get anymore), a Vandoren DB5 and one by the English maker Ed Pillinger. I can swap happily between any of the 3. The advice from Ridenour seems strange in the extreme to me!
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2023-06-27 20:33
Paul,
I'm curious whether you've tried Ridenour's ATG system. Some swear by it.
To me, Tom's ATG system looks terrifying, but I am fully convinced of his results and expertise at adjusting reeds in this manner. He speaks fully about the lightness of touch, targeting of specific areas, whether to pull or push, etc. The kit includes a booklet (or at least used to) which details the process. I understand that a lot of it addresses angles and pressure applied, etc.
I was taught to use reed rush and a knife. I've found reed manufacturing today (and my move to a certain make/model of reed) leaves me the need to use that knowledge only very, very rarely - so the various additional reed tools/systems have never appealed to me and I haven't tried them.
That said, if folks can get good results from the other methods...great! Most of these other methods appear to be getting 4 star or higher reviews (out of 5 stars) on Amazon, so it looks like the majority of buyers are getting positive results with the various tools/systems out there. That's great!
To each his own.
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-06-27 23:05
I started well before the ATG. But honestly I only made small adjustments to the areas on either side of the reed, below the tip but just above the heart. I trifled with a long scrape along the sides as advised by Robert Scott but that presupposed that you had a shallow sounding reed with too little resonance.
That video is really the scariest thing I've ever seen! It looks like Tom is using a block plane on his reed!
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2023-06-27 23:10
I think one can be a huge believer in the ATG (against the grain) reed adjustment system that Mr. Ridenour sells: and I am just such a person and still respect Paul's thoughts on that video.
I'm financially independent of Mr. Ridenour: please use whatever method works for you.
Mr. Ridenour's instructions that come with the kit do not advocate anywhere near the number of strokes against the reed that he shows in the video so I completely see Paul's point. I can only assume his video purpose is to demonstrate technique, not, per se, adjust reeds.
Paul: I am glad that you have success adjusting reeds by removing material from small areas of the reed. Barring side to side adjustment and balancing of the reed by bringing Mr. Ridenour's included sanding black against the tip at a 45 degree angle, I have had lousy success at spot removing small sections: *for me* they're more like tiny gouges that don't help.
Mr. Ridenour's sanding block is proud down its center length for about 80% of the blocks surface on the "business side" of the block . This provides contour to the sand paper stretched across it and allows the removal of material from the reed while still maintaining that reeds contour.
I have had enormous success with this product. In a sea of clarinet accessories that seem to fall short of promise, from ligatures to the materials and plates they're composed of, the ATG system is my single most important accessory.
YMMV.
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2023-06-28 06:10
I’ve used Tom’s ATG system for almost 20 years. I retired from the Field Band in 1999, when I ran out of “good” reeds from my Army Stash I went and bought a box. I hadn’t bought reeds since I was 19. Going through 2 boxes to maybe get a reed that I would have to bust my ass to play was not going to work. I found the ATG system, I did exactly what Tom said to do with it, I got exactly the results he said I would. I use every reed in the box. During the pandemic I learned to make reeds from tubes and I still use the ATG for about the last 10% (the important 10%). I can truthfully say “I’ve got 99 problems but my reed ain’t one” I will say this more important then the “sander” is the knowledge in the DVD that came with it. I’ve studied with some great clarinet teachers, NONE of them ever really told me about reeds that improved my playing. I will say this you stand a better chance finding out about Sex in a boys high school locker room than you will about reeds at any music school in the USA.
Tom Puwalski, former principal clarinet of the United States Army Field Band and author of “ The Clarinetists Guide to Klezmer” and the “Klezmer basic training” play along. And User and believer in the ATG reed system.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2023-06-28 06:25
Tom Puwalski wrote:
> I’ve used Tom’s ATG system for almost 20 years. I retired
> from the Field Band in 1999, when I ran out of “good” reeds
> from my Army Stash I went and bought a box. I hadn’t bought
> reeds since I was 19.
>
Tom, wait! Do you mean the Army was buying your reeds? I was in the Field Band, I think, well before you - 1969-72 - but the Army never bought any of our reeds! I feel swindled!
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-06-28 07:27
Oh Karl you ain't heard the worst.
Throughout the entire Band Field (not just the Field Band!) the Army purchased "expendables" for EVERY member to include however many of whatever type of reed you wanted. In every band I was with we were allowed to order one mouthpiece per year (part of how I managed drawers full of mouthpieces). There was one particular band that sent us to a Clarinet Fest accompanied by a credit card holder to purchase almost whatever we wanted (barrels, mouthpieces, .....stuff).
Of course before everyone gets all haughty about 'government waste,' you must keep this perspective in mind: one A1 Abrams tank costs more than the entire band field budget (that's ALL US Army Bands) per year vs ONE tank. And yet with cost cutting as an excuse, many bands have been eliminated in just the last ten years. And what do military bands do? Besides providing support for military ceremonies which include 'changes of command' (that happens about every two years for EVERY commander......that's a lot), there are parades, and community outreach concerts of every type imaginable (4th of July celebrations, outdoor concerts, formal concerts and children's concerts at schools). Military bands are one of the best deals the general public has going.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-06-28 09:58
Can I just say that I agree with what Tom has said about the difficulty of learning to adjust reeds from teachers?
My in-person teacher didn't teach me about reeds - he said he just binned the bad ones, but he had lungs of steel.
I just asked my friend who plays clarinet in a big symphony orchestra here where I can find a teacher. He says he knows literally no one who is willing to teach adults. They all just teach children.
So it looks like Tom's book is the good (only) way for me to learn how to optimise reeds.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-06-28 16:58
Gosh Jen ,
Where I live in Spain the municipal music schools takes all ages and do individual lessons and plug you into a group when you're level is up to it. You pay something but it's largely funded by the town hall who subsequently get a band out of the deal for festival etc.
There is also the " Conservatorio " aimed at taking students to professional level.
We've got one old gent ( must be about 80) who's taken a mind to learning Classical Guitar ...he had to be helped up the stage steps and into his chair for the end of term gig .( bless him!)
Is it really so hard for a mature student to find a teacher where you live?....sounds all wrong !
Sorry!....off topic ...but curious.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-06-28 17:53
Julian - Yes I think so. One of the other BBoard folks lives in the same town and she recently said the same thing.
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Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-06-28 18:59
Same here, there is only one teacher (left),
as far as I know there were three options.. but well only one left.
fortunately he teaches adults too (maybe even prefered?)
I only had one lessen and it was sure worth my while.
but the topic of reeds and reeds adjustment didn't come up.
I understand Pauls reaction completely, but even though Tom's system looks crude, it is actually (IMHO) very well thought out, designed to us it to very finely take away parts only there where you want it and with ease.
do take in account.. that (again IMHO) it is important to use used emerypaper.
not something directly from the store.. then the coarseness gone, and the paper fibers and the glue is broken down, this only helps the design tom put into it.
Kind greats
Matthieu
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2023-06-29 15:57
I use brand new 320 grit on my sanders, I have 3 of them and they work when the paper is new and they work when the paper is used. It’s hard to believe but you can learn everything you need to know by watching Tom’s videos. You don’t need a private teacher, chances are they will have some Voodoo that may or may not work. I remember when I got the ATG reed sander, I went through a shoebox full or “reedjects”. I ended up not buying a new box of reeds for almost 4 years. It takes a reliable “scientific method: approach to testing, and a procedure for dealing with the reed after it’s been evaluated. Just like playing it takes practice. When I was learning, I would take 2 reeds out of the “shoe box” every day and test and fix every day. The great ones I would perform and record on, the OK reeds I’d experiment on and practice with.
How this relates to double lip playing is this: Changing your reed is preferable to changing your playing mechanics. Playing double lip is “dancing” with your reed not fighting it with your embouchure. A perfectly balanced reed side to side and front to back is the most import part of the gear matrix. It’s also not that hard to get but it needs more than “thoughts and prayers” we’ve seen how great that works on gun violence in the US. Tom Puwalski
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-06-29 16:26
Hi,
I just paid for Tom's kit to be sent, so I will give it a try and report back if that's helpful.
To clarify what I said about teachers - I have been to see two teachers in person here, but neither had a clarinet that they were happy with themselves. I figure that it's good to learn from someone who is actually currently playing, and has an instrument/mp/reed set up that they themselves are happy with, if I'm going to learn from them.
Short of that, I love that we can chat online and exchange ideas on the current best techniques, because things seem to change quite a bit.
Jennifer
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Author: eac
Date: 2023-06-29 16:28
The cheek muscle is the buccinator. "The buccinator is a thin quadrilateral muscle occupying the interval between the maxilla and the mandible at the side of the face. It forms the anterior part of the cheek or the lateral wall of the oral cavity."
Google "buccinator" for an image.
Liz Leckey
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-06-29 16:54
Hi Liz,
Thanks for explaining. I hadn't realised that. I think it's the masseter muscle that hurts when I play SL. The other day I tried SL a bit more, and then next day it even hurt to chew, so I have no idea what's going on there. It only started post-covid and almost none of the post-covid symptoms make any sense, so I'm inclined to just ignore it and find an alternative that works. Which for me is DL.
Jen
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-06-30 00:11
I see the buccinators as critical muscles for the embouchure (you engage these when trying to get a thick chocolate shake through a straw without collapsing it).
As for the masseter I want to say that I am technically wrong in saying this is not really an embouchure muscle. Some including Tony Pay have said correctly that we should keep the jaw at a stable opening much like an adjustable wrench. To do that we use the lateral pterygoid muscles in conjunction with the masseters in opposition (isometrically) to hold this position. I reformed my thoughts on this when I had to take a month off playing and upon returning I felt some discomfort at the temporal mandibular joint.
Totally makes sense that the smaller muscles that help hold the jaw open would be the first to be stressed.
…………. Paul Aviles
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2023-06-30 02:45
Hi All,
Here is a link to the doctoral dissertation of my former student and good friend, Sheri Rolf, MD. She is, in addition to being a retired US Navy Captain (O-6), a clarinetist with the Great Falls Symphony and an exceptionally fine player.
http://rave.ohiolink.edu/etdc/view?acc_num=osu1523454235538941
Her discussion of the oral musculature complete with drawings, is very impressive.
Happy reading,
HRL
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-06-30 07:58
Gravity is the primary mechanism of jaw opening.
Page 67
Is that correct? I hold my hand against my jaw to keep it closed and I can force it open with whatever muscles those are (lateral pterygoids according to other sources) responsible for opening the jaw. I'm sure we've all have had toffee or some such stickiness that forces us to to "force" the jaw open. Gravity is not enough. Not sure how reliable this source is on other counts.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-06-30 10:21
No doubt we are not unlike the crocodile family inasmuch as the muscles to open our jaws are relatively weak . Apparently one can hold a crocks jaws closed.
I've personally never felt tempted to try this....apart from on a few people at parties .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: eac
Date: 2023-06-30 14:16
I have been baffled by the comment that SL causes pain in the masseters. After rereading this thread, I came across this statement by SunnyDaze: "I think it is the pulling back of my jaw that hurts in the SL embouchure."
Forming a SL embouchure doesn't require pulling back the jaw (mandible) but if one does (as I just tried), it certainly hurts! So somehow the SL embouchure isn't being formed correctly but trying to fix this online and not in person will be non productive. Maybe watching Michelle Anderson's youTube Clarinet Mentors several of which address the embouchure could provide a visual for SunnyDaze.
Additionally, she wrote: "For example, how do you isolate the muscles of the face to strength train them one at a time?"
Strengthening the facial muscles for embouchure strength isn't a matter of isolating a single muscle. Earspasm posts this video which looks silly but does the trick: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4d2gpRysZY
Hope this helps!
Liz Leckey
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Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-06-30 14:18
@ all:
I will have a proper read through later on, but for now I believe I will have to concure with Paul here. Something rather important has clearly been overlooked.
@ Julian
ofcourse, Long jaws is a large leverage and the pterygoids or the crocs's equivalent muscles do not have the best leverage (at least not with us human), so should be fairly easy to hold close.. on the other hand, i would not try to keep them open.. that seems a lot more lethal to me
.
Anyway, if one of ever gets in the situation that you are fighting for your life with a crocs.. two fingers in the nostrels apparently they can't breath through there mouth. on the otherhand, they can breath through their skin when under water if not active.. but this is getting of topic.
Kind greats
Matthieu
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-06-30 14:59
I DO like that MIchael Lowenstern video in that it points to the musculature that gives the proper shape to the embouchure. Maybe I've been doing this too long to appreciate the exercise itself, but whatever all the facial muscles are that are involved (and there has to be a lot of interactivity amongst quite a number of them at any given time......not just the buccinators, or the masseters or the orbicularis oris alone......too simple) this exercise does make us aware of a key area for the embouchure.
And as a note Bas DeJong said his European colleagues were baffled by how obsessed the American players are with embouchure. He was on to something. We don't have to be this caught up in the details. It should be more a matter of "just blowing." If the effort is much greater than that, we may need to rethink our embouchures (unless we are Stephan Williamson of the Chicago Symphony.......I guess he just likes working really really hard).
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-06-30 15:30
@ Paul
Which Michael Lowenstern video do you refer to? seems interesting to watch but... there are many :D
Quote:
And as a note Bas DeJong said his European colleagues were baffled by how obsessed the American players are with embouchure. He was on to something. We don't have to be this caught up in the details. It should be more a matter of "just blowing." If the effort is much greater than that, we may need to rethink our embouchures (unless we are Stephan Williamson of the Chicago Symphony.......I guess he just likes working really really hard).
end quote/...
I know i am new here, but I agree. I had nice compliment from my teacher about the sound and my embouchure and really all I am doing is fold my lip over my mandibulaire teeth and if playing DL also my upper lip, but just over, my maxilairy teeth. the rest follows automatically from there out.
Kind greats
Matthieu
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Author: eac
Date: 2023-06-30 16:45
“Strengthen your embouchure with this weird exercise”. Clever title 🥴
Liz Leckey
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-06-30 16:55
Hi Matthieu,
That's great that it's going well well for you. That is excellent news.
I really like the comment from Bas de Jong. I've been working much more carefully this week to get my reed right and it is helping a lot. I can see that having a good mp/reed set up and a good working instrument much take the weight off the embouchure very much.
It's interesting though, coming back to the initial question in this thread. It's very clear to me that there are differences between players, and that a comfortable embouchure also needs a good, well maintained instrument and access to good teaching.
I can imagine that at any time since the clarinet was invented, that must have affected people's choices. I mean if all the good teachers in a local area played SL then it's natural that people would learn that, and conversely with DL if that was the teaching available.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-07-03 13:32
Adult learner, Grade 3
Equipment: Yamaha Custom CX Bb, Fobes 10K CF mp,
Legere Bb clarinet European Cut #2.5, Vandoren Optimum German Lig.
Post Edited (2023-07-03 13:36)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-07-03 13:35
Attachment: angled barrel.png (422k)
Hi,
I just did some experiments and I think that using an angled barrel like this turns me into a SL player.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It59ur64xDQ
I think the limitation is to do with the fact that I need to use a sling to support the weight of the instrument. It means I can't hold it out at 45 degrees as would be ideal to accommodate fitting the mp between my teeth.
I wonder if this again backs up Fuzzy's suggestion that the anatomy of a given player dictates their choice of SL v DL?
Jen
Adult learner, Grade 3
Equipment: Yamaha Custom CX Bb, Fobes 10K CF mp,
Legere Bb clarinet European Cut #2.5, Vandoren Optimum German Lig.
Post Edited (2023-07-03 13:36)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2023-07-07 04:26
Things to consider why some players just can't play double lip. Large or very sharp teeth, especially the top ones, thick lips, especially the top ones. Everyone is built differently. I often asked my students to try double lip for a few minutes a day to learn to not bite if they were. I never played double lip and didn't teach it but would not discourage it either. It just was not my thing and still don't believe it's necessarily an advantage but if one tries it at some time and likes the result by all means play that way. It's easier to learn if one starts at a young age put possible to switch later.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: BenS
Date: 2023-07-14 23:06
I am trying double lip, primarily because I am having an issue with my front teeth. I have watched several videos on YouTube and have noticed that the person making the video talks about how great double lip is, but hardly any of them actually use it. Not sure why.
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Author: Clarineat
Date: 2023-07-15 00:24
I tried double lip for a while, but I honestly wonder if my top lip is long enough to do it effectively. Might try again now that my Invisalign treatment is done that might have helped.
Sean Perrin
Host of the Clarineat Podcast
Listen FREE at www.clarineat.com
hello@clarineat.com
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2023-07-15 01:28
Clarineat wrote:
> I tried double lip for a while, but I honestly wonder if my top
> lip is long enough to do it effectively. Might try again now
> that my Invisalign treatment is done that might have helped.
Funny that you mention Invisalign Sean, me being a "graduate" a few years ago of the Smile Direct Club method of teeth aligning: a competing brand.
I'm going to guess that your treatment requires some sort of retainer, perhaps at night, as mine does: as the reality is that in absence of such steps, and regardless of teeth straightening method, our teeth will revert away from their now straightened configuration over time.
At the end of the day, quite literally, my front two teeth are slightly farther apart than in the morning when I remove the retainer I slept with. For weeks I could not figure out why, when playing double lip, that the inside of my upper lip would get stuck between my top front teeth when playing double lip, and that this was more likely to happen towards the end of the day.
It's nothing that covering my top front two teeth with floral tap can't resolve, but I now realize why it's an end of day phenomenon for me given the end of day millimeter wider gap between these two teeth. 
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The Clarinet Pages
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.jpg){kind=small}
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![[G6]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/g6.gif)
with maybe some pushing up of that thumb somewhat.![[C7]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/c7.gif)
with double lip.![[A6]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/a6.gif)
.
