 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: cnet424
Date: 2014-03-08 23:59
I've been accepted to both UT Austin and the University of North Texas for clarinet performance and I can't decide which one is better than the other.
I like the teachers at both- Nathan Williams at UT; John Scott, Kimberly Cole Luevano, Daryl Coad, and Deborah Fabian at UNT. I've also had lessons at both and work well with all of them. Both programs are very highly regarded which is why I am having trouble deciding.
UT has a small studio (around 16, I believe) compared to a very large studio (60+) at UNT. Is there a specific school/ environment that would be better for a performance degree? Any advice and information about the school and professors is greatly appreciated!
Post Edited (2014-03-08 19:00)
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Author: Tom Ridenour
Date: 2014-03-09 00:25
Disclaimer: while we have no direct financial affiliation with either school or any of their faculty we have done a very limited amount of business with UNT.
I can't speak to UT's program but I know several of the UNT professors and have always found them to be both very good musicians and very good people. Daryl Coad we know very well and Tom has a great deal of respect for him. He's a first rate musician and a first rate person.
Tom also knows and previously worked with Ann McMillan who is UNT's in house woodwind repair technician (don't know if that's her exact title). She's a first rate tech.....Toms only had good things to say about her.
Not making a suggestion one way or another; simply sharing my (and Toms) experience with the UNT faculty.
Good luck!
Ted Ridenour
Ridenour Clarinet Products,
rclarinetproducts.com
sales@ridenourclarinetproducts.com
Post Edited (2014-03-09 00:33)
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Author: rmk54
Date: 2014-03-09 01:33
Another vote for UNT.
My daughter received her MM there (performance major but not clarinet) and the ensembles were very impressive.
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Author: donald
Date: 2014-03-09 01:42
Both are great schools with great teachers. How much do you care about a cultural life outside classical music? You're going to be there for 4 years (I assume) through very formative years of your life, find out what the two cities have to offer and choose that way. They are fabulous schools to study at, and you are lucky to have either option so look at where you will be happier as a person. dn
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2014-03-09 01:54
Are you a football fan?
I enjoyed my years earning a Masters of Engineering Mechanics at UT in 1975-77. My, that was a long time ago.
BTW, when we lived in TN I grew weary of people referring to "UT" and meaning the wrong thing. So I considered making a bumper sticker "UT means the University of Texas at Austin AND NOTHING ELSE". But I would have been afraid to drive around TN with it.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2014-03-09 03:12
You will get an excellent education and learn to play your best at either school.
When two possibilities are equally desirable, you may as well flip a coin. You can also choose based on less important factors, such as which campus is more attractive or whether you must play in the marching band.
You won't go wrong at either school.
Ken Shaw
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Author: pewd
Date: 2014-03-09 01:39
I have former students at both schools, all are thriving and doing well.
Either is an excellent choice.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: TXMusicMom
Date: 2014-03-25 21:22
Hello Cnet424,
I am joining this discussion. My S has a college decision to make as well. He was accepted to UT and to SMU in clarinet performance.
My S and Cnet424 must have been two of the four undergrads accepted to UT Clarinet studio. At least that is what Mr. Williams told us at a lesson - that he would take 4. So, congratulations, Cnet424!
I'd like to stay posted on what you decide. Good luck!
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Author: TJTG
Date: 2014-03-25 20:46
UNT: the opprotunities provided by a large school sometimes give room for you to be swallowed in the crowed, but if you work hard you can be in better orchestras and bands, and be able to work with people more on "your level" in chamber music. Small schools are wonderful, but if you want to be able to participate in what you want when you want, go to a large school. Sometimes small schools force you into things because they don't have enough students registered etc, and that can be annoying.
UNT all the way.
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Author: RLarm
Date: 2014-03-26 03:53
Dear Cnet 424,
I agree with everyone who has posted to your query that both schools are excellent. With everything being virtually equal I would consider what one of my former teachers told me - go to the school that gives you the most money. Considering the escalating cost of attending college I think that is very sage advice. And once you are at one of these schools try not to second guess your decision when you have those down times which everyone experiences. Make the most out of what that institution and teacher(s) has to offer. Good luck! ALOHA.
Robert Larm -Woodwind Supervisor of the Royal Hawaiian Band (the only full-time non military band in the country)
rlarm@hotmail.com
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Author: GeorgeL ★2017
Date: 2014-03-26 06:49
Having played for years in community bands with wonderful players who are under-employed with music degrees, I would think that one consideration would be the quality of the program in the subject Cnet intends to minor in.
If Cnet has not given too much thought to the possibility of a non-musical life after college, I would suggest UT, as I presume it has a much wider selection of non-music courses than does UNT.
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2014-03-26 16:56
Large vs somewhat smaller. both ok for academics at undergraduate level. pick where you think you will like it better; if not, it does not matter. enjoy your 4 years.. (I taught at university level for many years, including UT Austin, but also 7 others. )
richard smith
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Author: Brad Behn
Date: 2014-03-26 18:01
This is a very exciting and stressful time of year for college applicants. With the extremely high cost of education, the highly competitive nature of the music business and the relatively low salaries involved, there are many nuances to your decision process.
First of all, congratulations for your excellent achievement of being accepted to two extremely good programs!
May I suggest that you develop a system - a Rubric, or an Algorithm which will allow you to sort through all of your many important decision elements in a way which can provide some clarity.
For example, as I see it there are a bunch of things to think about. These points can each have a number value - based on your level of importance.
The scale can run ten points. So first lets pick our elements (you can create more elements of course).
Here is my proposed list of important consideration elements:
Teacher
studio size
proximity to family
culture outside the school
Total cost of education
Your general "feel" of the place
Probable ensemble experiences
Assigne each element with a 1-10 grade for each school. Then add the total, and you will get a glimpse of how you think of each school and their offer in total.
For example:
Teacher - 10
Studio size - 6
Proximity - 1
Culture - 7
Total cost - 3
General "feel" - 8
Ensemble - 5
Total = 40
Now do this exercise with all of your other schools in question, and you will probably learn something…
Again, your scale should be made from the various elements which you find most important in your decision making process.
And on a personal note, I have had experiences working with all of the teachers involved in both institutions and I believe they all offer great things. To study with all of them would be the best! They all offer so much.
Indeed Nathan's studio is smaller, but it is a very good group. The level of playing down in Austin is high, and their morale or "spirit" is noteworthy. When I went down there in the fall, I was very impressed by their positive vibe. This was something I felt noteworthy. And Nathan is a very caring and giving teacher who happens to play the clarinet extraordinarily well.
And I have two friends doing doctorate degrees at UNT right now. They have both spoken very highly of their experiences, I believe they are receiving top-shelf educational experiences. And I can say that I have come to know Kim, John, Daryl, and Deb over the years and I have great respect for all of them as artist level players and teachers as well.
For me, if I were involved in the decision making process. Some of the most important elements I would have sleepless nights of pondering would be:
Teacher - all five are great choices, but which one do you feel you connect with the best, which one will deliver the focus or path which is inline with your long term goals (do you want to be a college professor, an orchestral player, a band director etc.). While I am certain they will all be able to guide you well in each of these career paths, some of the teachers are actively playing in orchestra on a daily basis, others have played in orchestra in the past, while other teachers have become international pedagogues, and others international soloists - all slightly different nuances worth consideration I think.
School "feel" - In talking with parents especially, I am always curious to note that they mention the feel right away. When traveling from school to school, with their son or daughter during the audition process, parents see other things, they note the facilities, the campus, the spirit from the students and faculty and such. Bottom line, the sum of all of these extra sensory experiences can create a powerful and meaningful impression which should be taken seriously.
Cost - I think undergraduate education is ideal if it is as inexpensive as possible. The four years of that degree can rack up a huge bill, and the last thing I would want is for my child to have a burden of debt right out of the chute. Music industry offers very few job opportunities at very low pay, and to pursue a music degree is a bit of a leap-of-faith in itself, and so I would mitigate that stress by keeping the costs as low as possible. And then, upon conclusion of the undergraduate degree, if the experiences were successful, and the trajectory is optimistic, I would then go on to a graduate program where I can really focus on building a network - that program may end up causing some debt - but the master degree is shorter termed and therefore it may cost less. And for a doctorate - if that is what you end up doing, again networking is key, and this degree can be expensive, so I would really try to keep the costs down.
Ensemble expériences - I am certain that both schools mentioned have top-level ensembles, but it is important to note given the studio size, and the competition -what realistic prospects to play in a leadership role, to play in an orchestra, to experience ensembles in a rich way will you actually receive?
Good luck!
Brad Behn
http://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2014-03-26 20:17
I have about 40 years' college teaching experience in business schools at a variety of universities, ranging from mid-sized private to mid-sized second- tier state to large first-tier state so my perspective will be a little different than the others who have posted here. While the quality of your major is of primary importance, remember that you will be spending more than half your college career in courses outside your major.
I think Brad has given some excellent points to consider. Off the top of my head, I would add a few variables to his mix, some of which probably fall into his "feel" category:
1. Overall quality/reputation of the university outside the music department.
2. Coursework requirements for your specific program and, to the extent they differ, the degree to which they fit with your interests.
3. Electives available within your area of interest and the freedom the program allows you to choose electives.
4. (Closely related to (3)) How academic advising is handled. Are you advised by a faculty member in your department, a dedicated advising office within your school, a university-wide advising office? (In my experience, the combination of a dedicated advising office and an assigned faculty member is the best approach. While individual faculty may be better situated to get to know you personally, their interest in advising and knowledge of programs and requirements can vary a great deal.)
5. How and how well the school handles placement of its graduates.
Good luck with your final choice. You probably won't be making a bad decision whichever way you go.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2014-03-26 22:02
Disclaimer: I'm a DMA student at UNT
I just wanted to chime in with a few thoughts. Mainly the studio size consideration.
While UT has a smaller number of students, UNT does have FOUR studios (and one TA studio). Each teacher in each studio has a well-defined pedagogy and they are by no means the same. Not only do you get to be in a great studio, you have opportunities to learn from all of them. Lesson switching is a common practice here.
There are a LOT of students in the school (1600 music majors), but there are a lot of ensembles (two orchestras, three bands, contemporary music ensemble), not to mention ensembles for other types of music. There are 8-10 people filling out both orchestras, 12 or so in the wind symphony (Conducted by Eugene Coropron, considered one of the top, if not the top, band directors in the country). The symphonic band also has great players and has been very rewarding for students.
Both schools are state schools, so the price for tuition is the same. The cost of living is less in Denton, especially when you consider price and proximity to the university.
Teaching and ensemble experience outside of the university is also a determining factor. Students of all ages can find things to do outside of the university, gaining teaching and playing experience. Keep in mind there are about 6 million people in the Denton\Dallas\Fort Worth areas. If you have a car and want to find teaching and or playing opportunities, they're out there!
As for being "swallowed" by such a large school of music, it's partially a matter of what kind of student you want to be. Some people prefer to sit and bitch about there being so many students., etc. Those who are successful undergraduates practice hard, do what their teacher says, and do as much outside of the university as possible (teaching, playing, summer festivals, etc.). It's a matter of motivation. If you are confident in your work ethic and keep your ego in check, it's probable that your experience would be positive and rewarding.
There are 4 great teachers and there have been dramatic transformations of both undergraduates and graduate students from when they got here and when they graduate.
Brad Behn made a very good point about cost. Consider that DFW is a place where you can get as many students as you want and even more if you end up living in the area after your studies. I have many friends who are making the same or better money than a "First job" professor gig at a university. It's possible in Austin as well, but there are more people here and plenty of them have significant funds to allow for their child to study privately.
UT is a great school. One of my good friends here at UNT went to UT for his masters and got a lot out of it. The increase of teaching and ensemble experience as well as the variety of teachers at UNT have been an improvement.
Anyway, just some things to consider from someone who has been at UNT for 4 years.
If your decision is a coin flip, take a trip to both places and take some lessons\walk around the universities again.
-Nathan
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Author: cnet424
Date: 2014-04-03 23:19
Thank you everyone for the wonderful advice, I really appreciate it! I started to really stress out about this and reading your comments really helped! I ended up choosing UT over UNT. I feel like everything was pointing me towards UT, so I'm just gong to see where it takes me!
Mr. Behn, your algorithm was genius! Thank you!
TXMusicMom, Dr. Williams also told me he would only accept 4 performance majors! What an honor for your son to also be one of the 4. Has he decided?
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Author: TXMusicMom
Date: 2014-04-07 04:53
cnet424,
My son has not decided yet, but he is lining up some follow up visits in April.
Congratulations on your decision!
Enjoy the rest of your senior year!
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2014-04-24 22:12
The Music World is immensely large. The competition is as well.
Big is to me better, as that is more real World.
Be a big fish, in a big pond. Still, you will probably feel like a guppy, as everybody does, but it gives you a realistic view of what it's like out there.
Do Summer Music Festivals, as well as Competitions too.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: johnhcl
Date: 2014-04-26 00:08
I recommend UT Austin. Nathan Williams is a great teacher I've heard and I think you'll benefit from a smaller clarinet studio as you'll get more attention. I think the level of musical students is higher at UT Austin. I think you'll find yourself better doing the performance degree there in my honest opinion. It seems the clarinet students do have a lot of achievements... you've probably seen this page: https://clarinet.music.utexas.edu/news/
So it seems like a better, more competitive, higher level atmosphere, than UNT to me. If you go to UNT, you may get less opportunities and be a small fish in a big pond with 60+ students..
Good luck with the decision though!!
Post Edited (2014-04-26 00:13)
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