 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2010-02-23 18:29
Harold Wright
and.......me
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: mrn
Date: 2010-02-23 18:59
Some names (some better known than others) that come to mind (several of whom are now deceased) are:
Ralph McLane
Harold Wright (who studied with McLane)
Kalmen Opperman (who studied with McLane)
Tom Ridenour (who studied with Opperman)
Richard Stoltzman (who studied with Opperman)
Michael Norsworthy (who studied with Opperman and Stoltzman)
Gino Cioffi
Andrew Crisanti (who studied with Cioffi)
Sherman Friedland (who studied with Cioffi)
From what I understand, double lip used to be popular in France, but lives on primarily among certain American clarinetists. (notice that all the names above are of American players) I guess you could say that it is sort of like the way certain dialects of American English preserved aspects of British English that are no longer part of the mother tongue--or the way Japanese kimonos preserved (and continue to preserve) the style of the traditional clothing of the Han Chinese after it was banned by the Manchu when they ruled China.
Most clarinetists, even in America, use single lip, however. (myself included)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-02-23 19:22
MRN, You left our Iggy Gennusa.
I was under the impression that double lip was popular in Italy years ago as well as other parts of Europe in the 19th and early 20th century. I was told, when I was a student, that Gino Cioffi used to play with the reed on top so he had to play double lip as not to have his teeth on the reed. While playing in the Met orchestra it was advised by another player that he try turning the MP so the reed was on the bottom lip but continued to play double. Does anyone know if that was true or not? ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: JEG ★2017
Date: 2010-02-23 20:40
Cioffi told me (I studied with him in the early 70s) a similar story, and that he started playing with the reed on his lower lip because people were giving him funny looks. Pasquale Cardillo said that when he began clarinet he was taught to play with the reed on top but changed early on. He was a single lip player throughout his career with the Boston Symphony. I've also been told that double lip was common in Italy.
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Author: srattle
Date: 2010-02-23 22:57
Are there any present top professionals playing double lip? Other than Stoltzman?
Is there anyone who has a professional orchestra position who plays double lip? In a top orchestra job?
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-02-24 00:01
Our assistant principal, Chris Wolfe plays double lip. He's not a familiar name but he's been in the BSO for 47 years, same as me, we came in together. He switched to double lip after about 5-6 years in the BSO. It took him about a year to make the switch. ESP
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2010-02-24 00:06
>>>Are there any present top professionals playing double lip? Other than >>>Stoltzman? Is there anyone who has a professional orchestra position >>>who plays double lip? In a top orchestra job?
There used to be, but they all got fired for not using Vandoren mouthpieces. ![[whoa]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie10.gif) ![[rotate]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley25.gif)
Jeff
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Author: BobD
Date: 2010-02-24 00:16
I'm always amused...bemused by all the concern over the lip thing. I get the impression that "those who don't" believe that DL players are odd, or there's something wrong with them or whatever. What's the point? Who cares? I don't get it.
Bob Draznik
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Author: srattle
Date: 2010-02-24 00:36
BobD:
I don't use double lip, but I'm really interested about it, and why people use it. I don't know anyone personally who uses it, and I haven't seen it in a professional orchestra recently. I always wonder actually what the advantages are of it. I don't find it odd, I just don't understand the interest in it.
Ed P:
That's interesting to hear. I don't know the name Chris Wolfe. Do you know why he decided to switch? It seems like a strange time to completely change your technique, 5 or 6 years into a professional job. Did you notice any difference from before or after? This I find very interesting
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2010-02-24 01:28
My old teacher taught me on double lip, and I used it for several years. He was a student of Carmine Campione in Cincinnati. I don't know if Campione was ever a big advocate of double lip or not.
I eventually went back to single lip. I can still play double, but I just don't have the endurance to do it regularly anymore. I suppose I could get back in the habit, but I get some pretty favorable comments on my tone as it is. Not bad for an amateur, in any case. 
Jeff
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2010-02-24 01:32
I do while practicing some to keep things in check. For me, it's not practical all the time (difficult articulating up high).
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Author: Ed Lowry
Date: 2010-02-24 03:41
I (an amateur) like the double lip because it seems to expand the oral cavity, keep the throat open, and prevents me from bunching up the muscles of the chin, forcing me instead to have it pointed down as my teachers always said I should do. For many years I thought playing well meant using really hard reeds and biting down. You can't do that with the double lip, and I like the sound and response I've developed since switching. Having said that, I think were I to go back to single lip, I would retain many of the benefits I've just asserted from the double lip.
I've been encouraged to continue double lip by Olando Tognozzi, also a student of Kal Opperman, who recently played a short number at the Carnegie Hall "birthday party" for Kal.
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Author: davetrow
Date: 2010-02-24 05:25
I can't remember how I started out (back in junior high school), but when I started taking lessons, I was taught to use double lip and now find that I can't play single lip: the vibration of the mouthpiece on my teeth is like nails on a blackboard. Even mouthpiece patches don't help.
Dave Trowbridge
Boulder Creek, CA
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2010-02-24 06:35
That's exactly why I use double lip embouchure Ed and also to protect my dentures. I have been using this method for the last 30 years and have no problems articulating up in the high range ect , the only problem I ever have is when my gums get sore for whatever reason, nearly always the lower gum, then I have to ease off playing for a bit to let it heal up. Like you, I'm a keen amateur.
Skyfacer
Post Edited (2010-02-24 06:38)
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Author: mrn
Date: 2010-02-24 16:24
srattle wrote:
Quote:
I always wonder actually what the advantages are of it. I don't find it odd, I just don't understand the interest in it.
What I've always heard is that the main advantage of double-lip is that it forces you to avoid biting.
We single-lip players are often taught to apply downward pressure from our upper lip to relieve some of the pressure on the reed (especially in large leaps and across registers, where it's essential to avoid a break in the sound).
Playing double-lip essentially forces you to loosen up like that all the time, because if you don't, it hurts.
I tried experimenting with double-lip once, but I didn't care for the way it felt and from a tonal perspective it just "wasn't me." I felt that double-lip gave me a "floatier" kind of tone with less thickness/robustness, which I suppose is alright for some things, but not so much for a lot of the music I play. Because of that, I didn't find double lip to be worth the effort and just stuck with single lip.
Of course, your experience with it may be completely different, and I know Richard Stoltzman gets really good results (and a rich sound) with double lip (for instance, the degree of control in the altissimo he has in his Copland recording is very impressive), so it clearly works great for some people.
Oh, that reminds me. I left out a couple more names from my list above:
Reginald Kell
Benny Goodman (after Kell made him switch)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-02-24 18:37
For Srattle, in answer to your question about Chris Wolfe changing to double lip after being in the BSO for 5-6 years I really can't remember why he did it or what difference it made, it was about 40-42 years ago. It could have been because Iggy Gennusa was our principal back then and played double lip and he got such a beautiful tone. That might have influenced Chris to change. Chris and I both came into the BSO in 1963 and played with Iggy for about six years or so. ESP
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Author: CornodiBasetto
Date: 2010-02-24 19:13
Jack Brymer for the first 37 years, he wrote me when he switched to single nobody noticed.
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Author: tdinap
Date: 2010-02-24 21:43
I played double lip for about three years, but just switched back to single a couple of months ago.
The advantages I found for double (which agree with those of a few more experienced players I've talked to) were primarily the opening of the oral cavity and the increased flexibility in pitch and tone. I personally also found it easier to tongue, due to the change in position of the mouthpiece in my mouth, though I believe that the work I'm currently doing to improve my single-lip tonguing will eventually allow me to tongue at least as well as I did when playing double-lip. There was also a bit of softening of tone and articulation (less "edge", more control), though it's possible that that was mostly just from my perspective, since my teeth weren't in contact with the mouthpiece.
The main reasons I switched back were the amount of physical effort it takes to keep up a double-lip embouchure (I became fatigued more easily than I do now, and it required more practice time to keep in shape) and that I wanted more "power" in my playing. It's a bit easier for me to play loudly single-lip, and I've found that some of the edge and/or high overtones I felt I lost in double-lip actually weren't bad things.
As for the question of well-known players, I believe I read somewhere that Paul Desmond (Dave Brubeck's saxophonist, who I think started his musical education as a clarinetist) played double lip, and I definitely read that John Coltrane switched to double lip when his teeth started going bad.
Tom
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Author: mrn
Date: 2010-02-24 22:10
tdinap wrote:
> As for the question of well-known players, I believe I read
> somewhere that Paul Desmond (Dave Brubeck's saxophonist, who I
> think started his musical education as a clarinetist) played
> double lip, and I definitely read that John Coltrane switched
> to double lip when his teeth started going bad.
Maybe Desmond did play double lip, but he looks to me like he's playing single lip in this video, judging from the way his upper lip sticks out and the way he breathes from the top of his mouth [presumably with his teeth still on the mpc]):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faJE92phKzI
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2010-02-24 22:54
I remember a conversation with Jack Brymer from 25/30 years ago when I asked him about double lip. His reply then was that he couldn't keep up all the sessions he was then playing using double lip. He was a very busy man in those days.
For me I do find that stamina to keep it going is a significant factor and you have to practice hard just to keep it (but may be my age!!)
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Author: salzo
Date: 2010-02-25 11:30
David Weber was a double lipper.
And I believe Cahuzac was also.
I switched to double lip because my upper lip, when playing single lip, became completely irrelevant-causing me to be quite flat in the high register. This happened because I used to play a little sharp in the high register, had to relax my jaw, and along with the jaw went the lip. The easiest way to correct the altissimo, was to play double lip. I find that since playing double lip, intonation adjustment is much easier. I can get a little sharper or a little flatter when needed- before I switched, my intonation adjustment was quite inflexible.
I can no longer use rapid articulation techniques that I used to use when playing single-but i no longer have to, because the double lip embouchuree allows me to single tongue quite rapid- "tricks" are no longer necessary.
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Author: Adrian
Date: 2010-02-25 14:03
This thread keeps popping up every year. It's still one of the most interesting subjects in the clarinet community, although the number of double lip players is dwindling.
David Weber was a double lip player whose tone was legendary. He started all his beginning students on double lip. A half-hour of long tones every day was part of the program. After a few years you had a life-long embouchure of steel, and a beautiful tone to go along with it.
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2010-02-25 15:15
I've had a curious relationship with double lip. My first instrument as a child (started at 8) was alto saxophone. I had weekly private lessons from that age through graduating high school and then going off to college (composition major). Somewhere along the line in my early studies on saxophone I was taught to use a double lip embouchure. Whereas, on clarinet (my second instrument) I used a single lip from day one. I honestly did not think anything about using a double lip on saxophone until I arrived at the Berklee School of Music and my saxophone teacher, Joe Viola, took one look at my playing and said "You're using a double embouchure!". He did not like it one bit and for the entire first semester he completely reworked my saxophone embouchure and method of tone production.
Fast forward to around 4 years ago....
When I returned to bass clarinet after a long absence I experimented with single lip versus double lip. I quickly became convinced that with double lip my sound was bigger and more vibrant. It did not take me long to become comfortable with it. After that, single lip no longer felt right to me when I went back to it at times for a reality check.
Encouraged by the good results I was having with double lip on bass clarinet, I worked on developing double lip on tenor saxophone. As with bass clarinet, it seemed to me that my sound on tenor became bigger and richer. During this time I had several trusted musician friends go to the back of a performance space and listen to my sound. They agreed with me that it was more vibrant with a double lip. Finally, I worked on converting to double lip on Bb clarinet.
Frankly, I had the most difficulity with Bb clarinet....probably because I had used a single lip on clarinet all of my musical life. At first, I had problems with control and intonation. However, I stuck with it and after a period of time (can't remember exactly how long -- a number of weeks, maybe several months) I came to prefer double lip and was so comfortable with it that it felt to me that I had used it my whole life.
One benefit of using double lip I've found that has not yet been mentioned is a greater ease in doubling. That is, having less "embouchure shock" in making rapid switches between instruments (such as tenor saxophone and Bb clarinet) which have, in effect, polar opposite embouchures. Please understand that I'm NOT saying that I use the same embouchure on saxophones, Bb clarinet, and bass clarinet. While I use a double lip on all of them, I'm still using a clarinet embouchure (tight lower lip, pointed chin, etc) on clarinet and a saxophone embouchure on saxophone. Nevertheless, I've found that using a double lip is of great benefit to me as a doubler.
A final thing I'd like to add is if someone wants to evaluate double lip simply by trying it once or several times this is not a fair trial. In my experience, I had to hard work to develop a good double lip embouchure on Bb clarinet. It took weeks...even several months. But, that was the only way I could be certain about it. For whatever reason (maybe because I used double lip growing up on saxophone), I adapted to it much faster and easier on bass clarinet and saxophones.
Roger
http://www.amc.net/RogerMAldridge
Post Edited (2010-02-25 16:05)
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Author: Brent
Date: 2010-02-25 16:35
Jeff mentioned Carmine Campione in Cincinnati. I studied for a few years with Carmine in the 1990s, and he put me on a double lip embouchure to correct problems i was having with my embouchure. He doesn't use double lip himself generally, but he can use it and teaches it as a simple way to find optimum lip placement.
I've never changed back, and use double for all of the clarinets, including Eb. I generally play sitting down, resting the instrument on my knees; i have trouble with stamina playing standing up for long periods. I suppose if i had the opportunity to play for hours a day it would not be an issue.
I use a single embouchure on all of the saxophones; for me, it helps me to make the differentiation between that and the clarinet embouchure.
And yeas, it took me months to get used to double lip and to actually see significant improvement. However, to me, it was entirely worth it.
Brent
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2010-02-26 00:57
I studied with Iggie Gennusa for 7 years and also with the very gifted Ed Palanker, often referred as the best bass clarinetist in the business. Maybe Ed remembers me! Sadly I was only able to study with Mr. Palanker for about 6 months. His professional experiences in the BSO with Gennusa must have been great.
Anyway, I got into Peabody Conservatory after sudying with Mr. Palanker (thank you Mr. Palanker) and yes Iggie Gennusa had a really beautiful sound. I had been playing around with the double lip, before studying with Iggie and fully converted under the guideness of him. Mouthpieces drove Iggie nuts. He was always refacing them! Eventually I designed one for him, which he loved and hence the Gennusa mouthpiece was born. They were really great blanks. If you were a student of his he would reface the mouthpiece for you, allowing you to get a really good sound. Several of his students used double lip and with his custom mouthpiece set up it really helped the players get around the horn a bit easier. Needless to say, not all of his students played double lipped.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2010-02-26 01:01)
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Author: theclarinetguy
Date: 2010-02-28 22:16
Elsa plays double lip. Spoke with her last Spring about it when she came to USM for clarinet day. Been playing double lip for a good 12 years.
Micheal
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Author: pewd
Date: 2010-03-01 03:17
I had a biting problem and several other embouchure issues when I came to Andrew Crisanti for lessons - I studied with him for 2 years in the late 1970's.
Andy never convinced me to switch permanently, but experimenting with it sure cured my biting issue and fixed my embouchure.
And I really wish I sounded like Andy.... Wow, what an amazing player...
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: reddog4063
Date: 2010-03-04 04:14
I started playing double lipped from the beginning. The other players in the band just sounded so breathy when first developing their embouchure and I noticed the tone was much more lush with a double lip I felt like I could get ahead, which I did. Plus I never enjoyed the teeth on mouthpiece feeling at all. I also play with the clarinet moved slightly right instead of exactly straight ahead. I just considered it all being original and I had no aspirations of going to conservatory or playing professionally where a deviation from the norm would be considered a major fault. It was all good enough to become principal player in the bands I was in.
Joe
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Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2010-03-09 20:04
I'm new to double lip, after using single lip for three decades.
I find that the double lip embouchure, for me, doesn't give out as easily as the single lip. However, if I reach the point of exhaustion on double lip, I switch to single lip for a little more mileage. I still use single lip for crisp, staccato passages--especially in the higher register.
Gotta say, though, that with double lip, my altissimo notes sound better than ever.
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