 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: terry
Date: 2001-12-28 13:34
I was using single lip on my re-start (after 30 years off). Recently,
I decided to try the Double Lip Embouchure, and my tone got immediately
better. Now I am attempting to get it where I am stable in the throat
tones and regain the clarion tones. Slowly but with practice...
This interim success lead to my checking for the Pros, and who
uses/used double lip. Here is my list so far:
Stoltzman (it is obvious from his CD cover picture)
Ridenour (based on earlier thread here)
Manasse ??
Meyer (Sabine) ?? looks like it on a publicity photo I saw
Benny Goodman (apparently learned it in the 50's, did he ever use it,
with records? performances? CDs?)
any more???
thanks!
terry
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2001-12-28 16:03
Terry -
Users of double lip embouchure:
Marcellus - no, at least partly due to loose teeth caused by severe diabetes. David Hattner and Greg Smith, who studied with him, can tell us more.
Gigliotti - no. I asked him about it at a master class, and he said that he couldn't stand the pain due to his use of extremely hard reeds. However, he said that he supported the mouthpiece strongly with his upper lip, so that there was almost no pressure from his teeth on the top of the mouthpiece.
Drucker - no. Once again, he uses extremely hard reeds, and his embouchure is wildly unorthodox, with his chin bunched up.
Combs - no, I think, but he uses a thick rubber patch on the top of the mouthpiece.
Cohen - not sure - Mark, what does your son say?
Morales - not sure - probably not, since he uses a patch on top.
Brody - not sure - Dave Hattner studied with him and will know.
Yes:
- Kell
- Brymer
- McLane
- Cioffi (Wright's predecessor in Boston)
- Wright
- Stoltzman (and almost all Opperman students)
Keith Stein's book "The Art of Clarinet Playing" has the best explanation of the advantages of double lip.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: William
Date: 2001-12-28 17:15
I read somewhere that Benny Goodman used double lip for quite some time before returning to the more conventional method. Most people do not realize that he was a lifelong student of the clarinet, taking lessons from noted prominent clarinet teachers (Kell was one) whenever he could. It is understandable, then, that he would constantly try new methods (and equipement) throughout his career. And, it is a credit to his innate talent that, for the most part, he maintained his own sound no matter what new method or product he was trying at the time. But, as a perfectionist, and like many of us, he was always striving to be better and was willing to try new means to that end. My two cents worth this Fri. am. Interesting topic--Good Clarineting!!!!!
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Author: HAT
Date: 2001-12-28 19:33
Clark Brody did not use double lip (Incidentally, he was not my teacher, except for a few weeks when Marcellus was in the hospital, but we are good friends).
Marcellus's teeth had nothing to do with single or double lip. The loose teeth forced him to sit while playing, though.
Benny Goodman played single lip until Kell told him he should switch. In my opinion, it messed up his playing. One can clearly hear the difference starting in the early 50s.
The important thing to remember re: this discussion is to be careful about making changes of any kind. There must be a good reason to change. One can play the clarinet very well either way.
Ralph McClane, for instance, forced all of his students to play double lip. Some, like Wright, continued to play that way. Others, like George Silfes, switched back when they left him.
David Hattner, NYC
www.northbranchrecords.com
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Author: Kristen D.
Date: 2001-12-28 20:54
Hello all.
I am a grad student (performance). After reading Ridenour's book I began
to experiment with the double-lip technique, mainly because I had (and somewhat
still have) a biting problem. The technique has helped and almost cured my biting
which is so common with clarinetists. However, I have not completely switched
over. I use the double-lip for about 5-10 minutes as I warm up to remind myself
of the correct embouchure. Then, my single-lip embouchure is much better (freer
and less constricting with smoother legato). As a final word, I would say that I now
use a combination embouchure. I have learned from my current teacher (Dr. Diane
Cawein--student of Marcellus) that the upper lip should remain very active by pulling
the muscles downward onto the top of the mouthpiece relieving the teeth of about
80% of the work (much like Ken Shaw's comment about Gigliotti). This helps to
keep the sound warm and also discourages biting. It is a wonderful way to combine
the advantages of both the warm and free sound produced by the double-lip with the
physical stability (meaning, teeth on top of mouthpiece) of the single-lip.
This should work with practially any set up.
Kristen Denny
GTA: Clairnet, UNL
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-12-29 12:42
How do you know if you play better with double lip unless you compare recordings (in a double blind test which is impossible because the player always knows what he is doing) ?
When the teeth are on the mouthpiece (even with a mouthpiece 'cushion') significant sound arrives in a distorted (?) fashion at the ears directly via the teeth-skull-ear-drum route. So when using a double lip embouchure without sound transmission through the teeth the sound will obviously sound very different to the player. That does not necessarily mean the sound is any different to other listeners.
But then again, are we playing for our own pleasure or the other listeners' pleasure?
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Author: Gregory Smith
Date: 2001-12-29 14:23
In regards to one of the two subjects that seem to open a Pandora's box quicker than anything for clarinetists, namely vibrato and double lip, there are a few things that I can tell you about Marcellus' experience (and my own) with double lip which he relayed to me personally.
He gave double lip "the old college try" as he put it during the 1960 season and can be heard on several recordings playing with it from that season. He concluded from that experience that for three reasons, he would not to continue with the practice.
1)Sound
2)Articulation
3)Embouchure maintainence
The sound was not as big for him with double lip, the articulation slower and more cumbersome, and maintainence of the embouchure became too touchy and a preoccupation - much like the complaint heard about brass embouchures.
What he DID learn from the experience was that the top lip was as crucial if not more crucial to the embouchure than the rest. This led him to the conclusions and applications so perceptively described by Kristen Denny (above), a "Grandstudent" you might say of Marcellus.
During a performance of the Trio of the third movement of the Beethoven 1st Symphony shortly after the 1960 season, he said that he "discovered" the importance of the top lip that was to guide him for the rest of his career. Needless to say that his recording of the Mozart Concerto in Oct. 1961 came within months of his discontinuation of the practice and probably is a product of his discoveries in the most beautiful way.
I know that during the latter part of my study with him I had begun to be able to play for medium periods of time with both embouchures at any given time due to the application of the top lip in the ways that he had passed on to me. This was almost a test I believe as to whether I had fully developed my embouchure as Marcellus taught it - to use the top lip in single lip embouchure in much the same way as in double lip.
Gregory Smith
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Author: lynn
Date: 2002-01-03 00:03
My husband, Terry Guidetti (Delaware Symphony), and his teacher..... Harold Wright......very possibly others he studied with as well.
BTW Gigliotti used to tuck his lip under so it *looked* like he was playing double lip. That's what gave him the extra support on the top.
Lynn
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