 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2006-01-10 00:50
I've decided to do my English research paper on clarinet embouchure. I am taking the stance of double lip being superior to single lip. I am excited about this and I know I can get some great sources! I already have 1 resource (Tom Ridenour's Educator's Guide to the Clarinet).
So, I was wondering about some people I could contact that are using and/ or teaching the double lip embouchure? Keep in mind that they have to be well known (University Professor, known Pedagog, Performer, etc.) as my teacher will be checking my sources and looking them up for validity, etc.
Also, any other good sources (Magazines, websites, books, etc.)? I have to have 3 different sources and the paper needs to be 7 pages long. I'm pretty sure I could get a book from amazon if I needed to, but I need it pretty soon as the paper is due at the beginning of February.
Thank you all for all the help!
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Author: larryb
Date: 2006-01-10 02:36
You might as well contact Tom Rindenour - he is (or at least was) a double lip promoter.
Richard Stolzman plays double lip too.
I'm sure there are a lot of people on this Bboard who play with double lip, and it's probably been discussed - did you try searching the term?
[I did a quick search of "double lip" and there are 1004 posts about the topic, including many answers to your questions in the first ten or so hits]
Post Edited (2006-01-10 02:41)
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2006-01-10 13:28
I'm uploading a copy of an article written by Ralph McClane Called, "Single or Double Lip", that was in a 1950s Issue of The Clarinet. This was in the ICA library at Uof MD.
[ I'm sorry, without clearance from the ICA and the current copyright holder it is not possible to post this article in its entirety here. As former Webmaster of the ICA site, I spent time trying to get articles released; some have been cleared and are on the site (http://www.clarinet.org). Please contact the ICA for reprints of this article (actually, reprints of the issue ...) Mark C. ]
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Author: pewd
Date: 2006-01-10 14:32
The principal of the Fort Worth Texas Symphony, Andy Cristani, used double lip when he taught me, that was about 1978 or 1979. I don't know if he still uses double lip or not. Hes still with the Ft. Worth symphony:
http://www.fwsymphony.org/
There should be contact info somewhere on that web site.
-Paul Dods Dallas, Texas
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-01-10 15:02
I've read that double-lip players generally need to play sitting down and even brace the bell between their knees to stabilize the instrument. If this is true, how can someone like Stoltzman play standing up (which I believe he does regularly, is this not so?).
Confused in Centreville
Post Edited (2006-01-10 15:39)
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Author: larryb
Date: 2006-01-10 16:24
David,
I saw Stolzman perform a couple of weeks ago. He played the Debussy Rhapsody, Brahms Sonata 1, Bernstein Sonata, something by Lukas Foss and a contemporary piece. He accompanied Emmanuel Ax on piano.
He perches on a stool for the most part with the bell proped in between. There are times when he can stand and play (which he did).
Post Edited (2006-01-10 16:33)
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Author: RodRubber
Date: 2006-01-10 16:31
I play double lip, and i stand and play for hours all the time, its not a problem
Best Regards
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Author: Tom Piercy
Date: 2006-01-10 16:35
David,
In regards to your question of double lip players and the "need" to sit while playing: some do and some don't. It depends on the player.
I play standing for solo recital programs and sit for chamber programs.
I prefer to have my clarinet not held in one place by a knee, or knees, as I use my R.H. thumb, not only for support for holding the clarinet, but quite a bit for pushing in or up for certain passages and intervals. There are times in long chamber concerts where I will use my knee, or knees, for some added support.
"stabilize the instrument" -
If a double lip player is "slamming" his fingers while playing, the sitting and using knees may be needed for some stabilizing effect. However, one should not be slamming your fingers while playing anyway, whether using double lip or single lip.
Tom Piercy
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2006-01-10 18:43
I also play double-lipped and do find a need to prop the instrument on the edge of my knee, although it is possible to play standing for short periods of time--like for a solo. With practice the double-lip player can stand for longer periods of time, but if you're involved in 3-4 hour practice sessions it is difficult to do without support.
I found a great deal of change in my tonal quality when I changed from single lip to double lip. The tone has less of an "edge" to it and I had more flexibility.
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2006-01-10 19:02
I play double lip.
Anthony Gigliotti taught me to do it as something that should be in your bag of tricks.
After years of not playing, I found it helpful when I resumed. My present teacher adopted it also. He prefers that I not prop the instrument, and I try not to.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2006-01-10 19:46
Yes, as Alseg said, it's best not to prop the instrument. I'm trying to learn not to do it. One disadvantage to proping it is the yucky wet spot on my knee.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-01-10 20:41
The thumb rest was never intended as a means to support the clarinet. It was added for the purpose of locating the right hand relative to those keys it is directed to. Get it.....it's a place to REST your thumb!
Bob Draznik
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-01-10 21:22
With all due respect, Bob, given that gravity inexorably pulls the mass of the clarinet downward --- if the thumbREST is not supporting the clarinet, what is? Unless we are developing suction in our oral cavity, or have a vice-like grip on the mouthpiece with our embouchures, it would seem that our thumbs MUST support the weight of the clarinet, n'est-ce-pas?
![[toast]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley15.gif)
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2006-01-10 21:44
I learned double-lip first, without knowing there was any other option (hey -- maye that's why the oboe seems so natural for me . . .)
And, to confirm what others have said, I did find myself propping the clarinet on my knee or between my knees -- again, quite without realizing that there was any other way to do it.
However, I marched with the instrument for years, as well -- double-lipping all the way. I did have some pretty good callouses inside my lips, though (as well as on my thumb -- a permanent state, as nearly as I can tell).
After a teacher switched me to single lip, I used the thumb to support the instrument, and didn't prop it on my knee anymore. Maybe that's why it seemed so much heavier than I had remembered?
Susan
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2006-01-10 23:19
Bob D.,
A couple of George Silfies' students have told me on more than one occasion that he taught them that the right thumb is an important part of the embouchure.
Clarinetgirl06,
I thought the purpose of "research" was to find the answer to a question. It seems to me that going in with a presupposition as to what the answer is will likely taint the research. Shouldn't you be looking for proponents of both approaches? Also, if the purpose is "research," I would have thought that the least you could do was use the search function. There have been a number of threads in the past on this topic.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2006-01-11 00:26
Jack-
I am looking for proponents of both, but I MUST TAKE A SIDE IN MY PAPER. I will have to know what the + and -'s of both single and double lip are. My main reason for this thread is because I wanted to find as many well known people as I could for my research that use double lip. The search functions do yield some good results, but I have found some more info on who uses it through this thread. I also thought this thread was different enough to yield a new topic. Thanks for looking out for me though!
I ordered the Stein Art of Playing the Clarinet and the David Pino book from amazon for more sources. Any good internet articles that anyone would know of?
I've been playing double lip for the last few days and I like the feel a lot and I like the sounds I am producing now. It's more free and resonant. I felt that if I were to make a stance, then I should at least have tried them both out for a good period of time so I won't feel unknowledgable or hypocritical when I was writing my paper.
Anyone know contact information for any of these people mentioned above so I could interview/ask questions about double lip through email? Would any of these people by OK with being contacted?
Thank you everyone! I'm so excited about this topic!
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Author: Mark G. Simon
Date: 2006-01-11 15:27
Kalman Opperman plays double lip, as did his teacher Ralph McLane, and as do many of his students, including Stoltzman and my own teacher, Steve Hartman. Hartman recommends it on the basis of superior tone quality and range of tone colors.
Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana--Mediocrates (2nd cent. BC)
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Author: crnichols
Date: 2006-01-11 16:37
Carmine Campione discusses double lip embouchure in his book Campione on Clarinet. It also contains other good information.
Christopher Nichols
1st Infantry Division Band
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Author: BelgianClarinet
Date: 2006-01-11 17:31
I'm only an amateur, so who cares, ?
but once again, Double Lip is ABSOLUTELY no issue in Belgium. It is simple NOT DONE.
I only know of a few students that learned it from a bassoon player that had to teach clarinet players and made it all wrong ... ;-)
Honest : I know Stolzman, but don't know how to compare him with our local 'stars', but the fantastic pro's I know don't need it to make the tone I like.
A little devil in me, just seems to think that the structure of a double reed setup is so totally different from the mp+reed setup as we have, that it seems to justify us putting our teeth onto it ...
Just some thaughts of a hobbyist clarinet (clarinet junk though) and open for many suggestions, but not for ... double lipping ;-)
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2006-01-11 18:42
The overwhelming majority of "well known" clarinet players don't use double lip embouchure. So that's not a good line of argument to prove your stance. I'm not criticising double-lip, but I doubt that there is any way that you can prove that it is "better".
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-01-11 19:19
Let's look at double- vs. single-lip from a mechanical engineering standpoint:
Having the lower lip on the reed serves a specific and very important purpose: to provide a relatively low-stiffness structural interface between the player and reed, with a variable amount of damping (and generally quite a high amount of damping) -- damping of course being frequency-dependent. To damp something like a clarinet reed, which moves at relatively low frequencies (in the grand scheme of things) and with relatively large amplitudes, requires a flexible and physically large damper: the lower lip. The lip is very well suited to the task of providing a compliant support to the reed, with large and variable damping, at the frequencies and amplitudes of reed motion.
Now look at the top side of the mouthpiece: You have a hard, thick, rigid wall of hard rubber (or crystal, or metal) which is undergoing extremely small vibrations (virtually unmeasurable, in fact) and at high frequencies --- in this case a large, compliant 'structure' such as the upper lip has no effectiveness at all as a means of supporting or damping whatever vibrations exist. In other words, it doesn't matter what you have on top pressing against the mouthpiece --- lip or teeth. In terms of acoustical impedance-matching, in fact, the teeth are probably closer to optimum and could actually exert more controlling effect than could the upper lip -- but since the 'forcing functions' (vibrations) have such miniscule energy there, it really doesn't matter.
In conclusion, the only difference between single- and double-lip embouchure use on clarinet, I think, would be their effect on the shape, tension, and controllability of the embouchure as a whole, which determines the localized control AT THE REED where it matters.
End of sermon.
Post Edited (2006-01-11 19:25)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2006-01-11 23:58
Hey Dave,
I would hasten to respectfully disagree. Spending way too much time with "high end audio" I have seen way too many things matter that don't immediately make sense. For instance, if you stabalize a pair of ordinary box speakers to the floor using three little aluminum cones (looking for all the world like oversized Hershey's Kisses) the speakers will insantly come alive with sound that you previously would have expected only from a new, much more expensive pair.
In addition to encouraging all the most "correct" musculature for a clarinet emborchure, it is my belief that the complete isolation of the mouthpiece from your bone structure must have some effect on the upper partials whether we like the result or not.
That having been said, I must throw out a testimonial from the past. Clark Brody, student of Bonade did NOT use double lip, but at a lecture recital given late in his career he stated that he wished that he had learned to play double lip.
THAT having been said, I also know that German Schooled players can't even imagine playing that way. Players such as Karl Leister glue patches of leather to the tops of there mouthpieces due to the demands their teeth place on them. I would hate to see the upper lip that ever came between a German and his mouthpiece!!!!
....................Paul Aviles
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-01-12 00:37
Buon giorno Paul,
Not to disagree with your disagreement (?), but permit me to respond, sort of:
First, I'm sure your ears are much better than mine, yet I will remark that audiophiles of the high-end variety (people known as "Golden Ears", I think it is) have something of a reputation for a tendency towards something akin to a religious faith in the efficacy of their equipment/gadgets, which is frequently debunked when properly-conducted double-blind tests are performed --- no different than the clarinetists who swear that their gold-plated ligatures MUST sound better, though there is never objective evidence to support such assertions. But this is a tired old subject, so let's leave it there......
Secondly, we must differentiate between how the PLAYER perceives his sound (which is partly transmitted directly via vibrations of the mouthpiece through his jaw and skull, and partly through the air as sound waves), and what the LISTENER perceives, which is entirely from the sound waves. There's no doubt that playing double-lip (or using thick mouthpiece patches) substantially alters the sound as perceived by the PLAYER, but are you so sure that it makes any difference to the listener? Do we have any properly-conducted tests to substantiate it?
As for the Clark Brodys and Karl Leisters of the world, they are so far above my level that I'm not qualified to comment. I was merely pointing out some physical considerations, which I AM qualified to do as a degreed mechanical engineer (or at least my school would like you to THINK I'm qualified!).
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Author: Erdinet
Date: 2006-01-12 02:04
I believe that the great jazz clarinetest Alvin Batiste (spelling) uses double lip. I know he taught at Southern University for a time where he taught the embouchure to the great saxophonist Wessell Anderson among others. Wess uses it on alto and sopranino saxes.
Also, James Carter switches back and forth between single and double depending on what situation calls for. At least that is what he told me one time about 10 years ago.
While certainly not famous, I have used double lip in the past, but after a long lay off, came back to playing and went with the single embouchure. I find it impossible to play soprano sax using double lip, but do find if effective on alto and clarinet. Have yet to really give it a shot on Bass Clarinet, Baritone or Tenor sax though. I doubt that it will work on Bari though. I don't think I could keep the horn stable enough.....
The thing I miss the most not using double lip is the flexibility. You can use a softer reed and therefore do better and more effective glissandi and pitch bends. But, then again in that I find myself playing in more "letgit" situations as opposed to straight ahead jazz, may be its a good thing for me to be using single lip. Dunno....
Adam
"There is a big difference between kneeling down and bending over."
-Frank Zappa
Post Edited (2006-01-12 11:31)
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2006-01-12 14:16
I've been reading this exchange on double lip embouchure and believe that David Spiegelthal is correct from a mechanical engineering perspective. He forgets, however, that the mere act of using the upper lip between the teeth and the mouthpiece opens up the oral cavity. That's a positive thing as a more open oral cavity contributes to a somewhat freer (bigger, rounder, clearer, more resonant) sound. And there are other benefits to double lipping that are not so obvious, such as how it forces the player to use a lighter finger technique. Shaping notes and vibrato are also easier with double lip, in my opinion. So while the mechanics are as David describes them, there's more to the picture than meets the eye.
A good (mechanically correct) single lip embouchure and a good (mechanically correct) double lip embouchure are equivalent. The problem is that many single-lip players cannot achieve with their single lip that which double lip makes almost automatic.
Like most experienced double-lip players, I can easily switch to single lip. How many single-lip players can do the reverse? Not many. That says something, I think.
Paul Globus
Montreal, Canada
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-01-12 15:41
"but I MUST TAKE A SIDE IN MY PAPER"
Sounds more like a Bar or Debate examination paper.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2006-01-12 16:00
You mean, I suppose, that you have to come down in favour of one style of embouchure over the other. I think you would be better to conclude that the basic principles of correct embouchure formation apply to both single and double lip. There are legions of excellent players in both camps. But -- and it's a big but -- I would say that there are more single-lip players who are off the mark than there are double-lip players. The reason? The things that make for a correct embouchure happen more naturally with double lip.
Cheers
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2006-01-12 16:20
Scholastically:
Read all that you can read and draw your own conclusion.
Practically:
Then take the side that your teacher finds correct, unless you want a lower grade.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: larryb
Date: 2006-01-12 16:46
It's an English paper.
It doesn't matter what side you come down on (double, single or no lip at all).
The important thing is to research and write well and pursuasively.
Don't forget to cite your sources.
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2006-01-12 17:52
Paul Aviles' observation about the salubrious effect of the little aluminum spikes that come with some audio speakers is verrry interesting! It seems to validate my argument that the rubber tips (or even balls) that come with almost all bass clarinets are an acoustical handicap. My experience is that I feel that I have the most projection and resonance when I used a sharpened peg in direct contact with a wooden floor. Each time that I've espoused that view in this forum (and others) certain folks have hurried to chastise me that Buffet and Selmer know best what's good for us!
Well, thanks Paul, for letting me know that I and a few thousand cello players aren't entirely delusional!
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Author: Barton62
Date: 2006-01-12 18:08
Carrie,
Go to Sherman Friedlander's site http://clarinet.cc and ask him what well-known artists are using the double lip. He is very timely in his answers.
Leisa
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2006-01-12 18:51
Thanks everyone! I'll probably give Sherman Friedland an email then!
Larryb is 100% correct. It's merely an english paper. The requirements were that it was a controversial issue and that it hasn't been overdone (abortion, gay marriage, seperation of church and state, etc.). I decided that I wanted to do it over clarinet embouchure and my teacher is excited because she knows nothing about it and is eager to learn. Because or paper is over a controversial issue, a side must be taken. I chose double lip because I wanted to write it in that angle. I could have picked single lip, but double lip seemed more interesting for me to research because I didn't know much about it and now I'm learning a lot about it. I'll definitely remember to cite my sources, and I'll try my hardest to be persuasive and to write well.
This paper is for my college credit high school english class. It's not for someone who has already taken a side on the issue!
Thanks everyone! Anymore more info will be gladly welcomed!
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-01-12 19:13
Hello Larry Bocaner,
I would guess that your sharp spike on the bass clarinet peg in contact with a wooden stage floor is acting just like the bridge on a string instrument, coupling the low-power bass clarinet ("string") vibrations to the much larger radiating surface of the stage floor ("sounding board"). Makes sense! But I had always thought the major selling point of the sharpened spike (as opposed to a rubber ball tip) was that it's less prone to slipping?
At any rate, if it works, it works............
Highest regards, and I hope you and your family had a wonderful holiday season.
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2006-01-12 21:05
clarinetgirl did you get my email? I sent you something that might be usable in your paper.
Larry B you are correct! A nice wooden stage and a highly sharpened spike on my buffet bass and my feet will vibrate!! As bass players we should all get our balls off and resonate!! I love that direct conection between my horn on the floor! When I used that Backun bass bell in Oklahoma I felt the vibration in my knees!
Tom Puwalski, former soloist with the US Army Field Band, Clarinetist with Lox&Vodka, and Author of "The Clarinetist's Guide to Klezmer"and most recently by the order of the wizard of Oz, for supreme intelligence, a Masters in Clarinet performance
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-01-12 21:34
If we do a really good resonating job with our bass clarinets and pointy pegs, hypothetically we could vibrate the Conductor right off the stage.....Our biggest problem --- SOLVED!
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2006-01-12 22:31
Tom, yes I did get your email and I emailed you back, but hotmail says it's having a delay or a failure to respond. Thank you very much for the article!
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2006-01-12 23:19
"We should all get our balls off and resonate!" Are we strictly speaking of clarinet playing? :-)
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: graham
Date: 2006-01-13 17:15
The key benefit of a rubber foot is that it does not permanently damage the floor surface, and it works on surfaces which are so hard that the pointed spike cannot gain a purchase. For instance, I have been known to rehearse in a gym. Rubberised gym floors don't like spikes. In any case, the degree of vibration carried by the spike/peg must depend on whether or not it is attached to the metal bell rather than the less resonant (nil resonance?) wooden body. If the latter, I cannot see how it can transmit anything to the wooden floor.
But, sincew buying a bass with a rubber bottomed spike of total rigidity, which replaced one with a very thin compliant spike that had no point but also no foot, I note that blurred vision which used to arise on bottom E and E flat no longer arise. But I do not know whether it is the spike design or the overall design of the instrument which causes that. Whilst I miss the visceral effect of the blurred vision, it does make sight reading much less hazardous, now it has gone.
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2006-01-13 18:51
Thank you Brandon. I actually did find that article a few days ago! I'll most definitely be using it for my paper. Would you recomend his book for purchasing though?
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2006-01-13 19:08
We are bisymetrical, yes, but we tend to think of this as mostly left/right.
taking this balance onto the vertical:
Although our lips are NOT symetrical top/bottom (think cupid bow shape top, single curve bottom), we do tend to use them as if they were co-equal...vis.a viz..we suck on a straw with lips together, we feed as infants with both lips on a bottle/nipple (not upper gum and bottom lip), we blow up a balloon similarly, so our NATURAL tendency is top/bottom symetrical USE of the lips.
So it is not so far-fetched to view lips as symetrical in the top/bottom direction.
(Disclaimer....I use double lip embrouchure 80% of the time)
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2006-01-13 22:14
Alseg-
Campione adresses what you just talked about in this little excerpt I found on his page. He leaves it hanging on the end, which isn't nice! But that's how you sell books! Glad that someone else has come up with the same conclusion as he.
http://www.campioneonclarinet.com/excerpt01.htm
Post Edited (2006-01-13 22:15)
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2006-01-14 03:31
Did he come to the same conclusion?
I was tempted to get the book, but it is $39 and so I hesitated.
On the subject of symetry, try this experiment.
Go to a chalk board.
Draw the right half of a bilaterally symetrical object (hourglass, tree, pear, human form) with your right hand.
Complete the left side of the drawing again using your right hand.
Not too good? likely not very accurate.
Now do the same thing with both hands simultaneously, the right hand drawing the right half, and the left hand drawing the left half.
Perfect? you bet.
In fact you can do it with your eyes closed.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
Post Edited (2006-01-14 03:38)
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Author: Brandon
Date: 2006-01-14 03:50
Carrie:
I would most definately recommend Carmine Campione's book. I have studied with him in the past and highly recommend both his teaching and his book. Parts of the book may be difficult to understand, but by studying the book over time it will make sense. Highly recommended.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2006-01-14 04:44
Having played the oboe for many years, I prefer to play the clarinet with one lip as, to me, it is more stable, easier, and sounds better to my ear. The shaping of the tongue while playing is a factor which is easier to control for me with a single lip embouchure. The double lip embouchure seems to open the jaw too much. One can get used to any style of playing and I can play with a double lip if I wanted to.
Darrell Mettler, a fine free lance player also in the latest Harry James band, is the only Los Angeles player that I know of who uses a double lip embouchure. He said he does it because of dental issues. Good luck!
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2006-01-14 12:31
Alseg wrote:
>> Did he come to the same conclusion?>>
What Campione said in his article, and I've never heard this particular wrinkle before, is this:
We tend to use upper and lower lips symmetrically.
Therefore, if we form a double-lip clarinet embouchure, the length of top lip we wrap round the top teeth tends to be the same as the length of bottom lip we wrap round the bottom teeth.
Call the length of top lip we wrap round the top teeth 'the top wrap', and the length of bottom lip we wrap round the bottom teeth 'the bottom wrap'.
It's a physical fact that most people's maximum top wrap is quite small -- in other words, you can't get your upper lip very far over your upper teeth. (Half an inch or less is typical.)
However, the same is not true of the bottom wrap. Most people can get their lower lip over their lower teeth by an inch and a half or more.
Now, too large a bottom wrap is counterproductive for the production of good clarinet sound. Moreover, it turns out that for many people, the optimal bottom wrap -- the amount they need to wrap their lower lip over their lower teeth to produce a good sound -- is about the same as their maximum top wrap. And so the very act of forming a double lip embouchure automatically puts their lower lip in the correct position with respect to their lower teeth.
There is an added bonus in that the stretching of the upper lip to cover the upper teeth -- not a very natural action in everyday life -- tends to encourage a similarly stretched and flexed lower lip -- just what you want to start off with in order to learn the subtle modulations of this muscle, or group of muscles, that controls and damps the reed in playing.
Campione therefore says that a period of playing double lip embouchure can have a beneficial effect, even though he himself is a single lip player.
Something he doesn't say, though, and something I would like to add, is this:
It immediately strikes me that his insight leads to a very simple method for a beginning student to form a satisfactory embouchure, even without actually playing double lip. They would take the mouthpiece into the mouth with symmetrical top and bottom wrap, and then allow the top lip to slide out from under the top teeth without changing the position or stretching of the lower lip over the lower teeth.
I find that if I do this, I arrive at my normal embouchure.
Tony
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2006-01-14 13:01
Tony that gets back in one of my origianl posts I mentioned that I was a double lip player since the begining. So I'm a firm believer that for me it is the optimum way. But I also said that I thought that the top lip wasn't the thing that was important about double lip. I think it serves as a method for figuring the hierarchy of tone elements. For me, this is the order I would put them. It's decending
1. area of contact with the reed. How much mouthpiece and where is the nodal point of reed vibration, how much lower lip is over teeth is part of this
2. the amount of presure exurted on the reed
3. position of the tounge, and oral cavity shape
4. Breathing, Am I using a small amount of compressed air or large amounts of uncompressed air
5. Reed: is the reed balanced and able to handle the matrix of 1-4
6. What style mouthpiece am I using close and long, med and long or open close. depending on what the music calls for.
7. Top lip on mouthpiece?
8. what coffee did I drink on the way to the gig, did I grind my own? Starbucks or dunkin donuts?
9.What ligature am I using, BG or Eddie daniels, plate in or out. or the old bonade
10. what case did I put my clarinets in today
Tom Puwalski, former soloist with the US Army Field Band, Clarinetist with Lox&Vodka, and Author of "The Clarinetist's Guide to Klezmer"and most recently by the order of the wizard of Oz, for supreme intelligence, a Masters in Clarinet performance
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2006-01-14 21:27
I want to start a new thread about this. It doesn't belong in the one about how someone should write a positional English paper.
Actually, I think the notion of a positional paper about this subject is a very bad one. The double lip/single lip controversy isn't a controversy that exercises good players in the execution of their jobs. They've already chosen what works for them, and are getting on with what's important.
It's rather a controversy that exercises people who have lost sight of what they are trying to achieve -- some people on this list, for example.
Is that really what you want to concentrate on, Carrie?
Anyway, here's what will be the beginning of the new thread:
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Tom Puwalski wrote:
>> Tony that gets back in one of my origianl posts I mentioned that I was a double lip player since the begining. So I'm a firm believer that for me it is the optimum way. But I also said that I thought that the top lip wasn't the thing that was important about double lip.>>
I've snipped what you then wrote, because I want to concentrate on just the bit that is in your:
>> 1. area of contact with the reed. How much mouthpiece and where is the nodal point of reed vibration, how much lower lip is over teeth is part of this.>>
What Campione wrote about that was something of a revelation to me....
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Tony
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Author: bcl1dso
Date: 2006-01-14 21:34
Henri Lefevbre= Daniel Bonades teacher. He played double for the duration of his career. Most of the old french players played double lip, that just what they were taught. I have a recording of Lefevbre from 1913 and his sound is amazing. I mean no one sounds like that today. It is extraordinary. Bonade also play double lip at the end of his carerr because of his loose teeth as well as the beginnging of his career but nto for the same reason.
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Author: crnichols
Date: 2006-01-14 21:42
Many of the older italians did also, Gino Cioffi of the Boston Symphony from 1950-1970 comes to mind.
Christopher Nichols
1st Infantry Division Band
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2006-01-14 21:56
Tony Pay wrote:
"Actually, I think the notion of a positional paper about this subject is a very bad one. The double lip/single lip controversy isn't a controversy that exercises good players in the execution of their jobs. They've already chosen what works for them, and are getting on with what's important."
Hmm... I see what you are saying. I know that a pro will (or should) already have their embouchure figured out.
I didn't mean for this thread to become as big and feel free to make a new one more in depth. I was just wondering of some good sources for a paper. I have to write a research paper for my class and clarinet is what I love. I would rather spend my hours for a paper that I am required to do researching the finer points of clarinet playing than say illegal immigration. Could you think of a better way for me to take a stance on a paper that was clarinet related?
It just seems to me that double lip supports proper basics of playing, while single lip supports bad habits or it least makes it easier for bad habits to form. Maybe take a stance on how beginning students should be taught double lip first and then once they are secure in double lip, they can then be taught single lip. They can then decide for themselves which embouchure works best for them. How about that?
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Author: ned
Date: 2006-01-15 02:46
''I've read that double-lip players generally need to play sitting down and even brace the bell between their knees to stabilize the instrument.''
Seems unnecessary. I have always played DL and have no problem. I concur with ''RodRubber''.
I thought the hands and arms were meant to stabilise the instrument, not the mouth!
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2006-01-16 12:57
Carrie wrote:
>> It just seems to me that double lip supports proper basics of playing, while single lip supports bad habits or it least makes it easier for bad habits to form. Maybe take a stance on how beginning students should be taught double lip first and then once they are secure in double lip, they can then be taught single lip. They can then decide for themselves which embouchure works best for them. How about that?>>
Thanks for responding thoughtfully, Carrie.
I'd say that the real controversy to consider is the controversy between those teachers who understand that good results can be obtained by the use of either double lip or single lip embouchures -- and therefore tailor their recommendations to the individual student -- and those who are dogmatic that their way is the only way, as was once claimed on the Klarinet list to be true of one Ralph McLane.
It's the old polarity between the autocratic and the enabling strategies. I wrote about that once in a post called 'The Lure of Certainty'; see:
http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/2003/08/000288.txt
(I should caution readers of a sensitive disposition that there's just one word in there that would be censored on the BBoard:-)
Tony
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2006-01-16 14:17
"I'd say that the real controversy to consider is the controversy between those teachers who understand that good results can be obtained by the use of either double lip or single lip embouchures -- and therefore tailor their recommendations to the individual student -- and those who are dogmatic that their way is the only way, as was once claimed on the Klarinet list to be true of one Ralph McLane."
I heartily agree with Tony Pay on this one. Good results can indeed be obtained with either style of embouchure. My experience as a double lip player is that certain things happen more naturally -- for me -- using the double lip approach. The "for me" in the last sentence is important. This certainly would not be the case for everyone. Nor would the good results I get with double lip preclude me for getting equally good results with single lip.
I had two principal teachers. One was an Italian who originally played double lip and later switched to single lip. The other played single lip. Both were marvelous players and both cared very little about which style of embouchure I adopted. It was all about getting good results and playing in a optimally communicative and expressive manner.
Everyone who becomes embroiled in this single vs. double debate should remember that it's a highly personal choice and that the mechanics behind a good clarinet embouchure apply equally to both single and double lipping.
Cheers
PS Tony Pay is without question one of today's finest players. Is he a single lip player? A double lip player? I couldn't care less. He plays beautifully and that's all that counts.
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2006-01-16 23:37
Ok I've been waiting, what did Campione write that was a revelation??????
It is disheartening that we will spend tons of money on equiptment and gadgets and never as much on information. Well thought out, articulate writing about mechanics of tone production, and other clarinet mechanics can be more informative, and actually better than just one or two lessons with someone nomatter how great they play.
I will be ordering the Campione book tommorow, I've met the man looked at the book and just didn't get back to the booth to buy it.
There seems to be a general thought in education of music, that musical playing can't be taught or written about in effectivly in books.
When I was 16 I had the great fortune to study Ear Training and general musical knowledge with a real mench, Asher Zlotnik. One of the books he made me read was the Doctoral dissertation of a Horn player, student of Mason jones and anton horner, his last name was Thurmnond. The book was called "Note Grouping". It was a description of the Arsis-Thesis concept of how "meter" works. This book was a revelation to me at 16, Zlotnik made me sing execises and show that I understood, and could make 2move to 3, 3 move to 4 and 4 move to one. As clarinetists I think we could spend more of our "training" time on resolving musical problems, and making ourselves more complete musicians.
This note grouping book has been published and is availible, I will find it in my basement and post the info. It should be read by anyone in their first year of college, along with Ayn Rand's "Fountain Head".
I read with both lips!!!!
Tom Puwalski, former soloist with the US Army Field Band, Clarinetist with Lox&Vodka, and Author of "The Clarinetist's Guide to Klezmer"and most recently by the order of the wizard of Oz, for supreme intelligence, a Masters in Clarinet performance
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Author: Ashlee
Date: 2006-01-17 01:30
If you get frustrated w/ double lip...circular breathing is another great subject. It is very controversial, sources are unlimited and I have found it to be a very interesting subject among non-musicians. I wrote a paper about it last year and my english teacher still uses it in the class room. I think you would have alot more luck w/ circular breathing especially if it's a "debate" paper. Just something to think about..
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2006-01-17 01:38
Ashlee-
Thank you for the idea! I took a circular breathing masterclass at OU with Robert Springs and I can't do it! I think that is an interesting topic, but with the sources I have already collected and seeing that my paper is due pretty soon, I'll stick with some variation of embouchure. Thanks for the idea though! What are some interesting reeds for circular breathing that I could read in my spare time though? It'd be cool to read about!
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-01-17 01:43
Ashlee wrote:
> It is very controversial,
What exactly do you mean, "controversial". It is but a technique ...
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Author: Ashlee
Date: 2006-01-17 03:22
Controversial meaning that people take sides or simply have different opinions.
I circular breathe and I keep in contact w/ several prominent clarinetists who do (no names respectively). One of the biggest comments/concerns in reviews/competitions/interviews etc..is how often,where & when do we circular breathe. Many people believe that circular breathing isn't "right" b/c music naturally breathes...therefore we must "naturally" breathe as well. Some would even have a fit if you circular breathed in...lets say Mozart. Some take this tool as a special "technique" and would find it necessary to use it in all forms of music...including Mozart.
The question "is it right to add a 'contemporary' tool/technique in a classical piece?" (Of course it's not like we're adding klezmer to Mozart)
It is all a matter of taste, value, and whether or not you're willing to take the criticism. Believe me, it's hard to take sometimes. However, it is a very valuable gift and I'm very thankful for it...criticism or no criticism.
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2006-01-17 20:57
I can actually double teeth and pop out a C7 quite nicely! I just lightly place one of my bottom teeth on a certain point on the reed, and presto: C7! I can do that rather easily now, but I have also acheived some freakishly high notes with this method.
Well, it's more of the upper lip, upper teeth, and lower teeth. Not purely double teeth.
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2006-01-18 13:04
There are 2 things teeth should never touch, a clarinet mouthpiece is one of them!
Tom Puwalski, former soloist with the US Army Field Band, Clarinetist with Lox&Vodka, and Author of "The Clarinetist's Guide to Klezmer"and most recently by the order of the wizard of Oz, for supreme intelligence, a Masters in Clarinet performance
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2006-01-18 13:25
Can you play with dentures or NO teeth at all?
Just wondering.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2006-01-18 13:46
Our tuba player does better without his teeth. But that's brass.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-01-18 14:12
Tom,
I dare you to try to play bass or contra clarinets double-lip.
DS
Teeth firmly on the mouthpiece patch where they belong
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2006-01-18 18:20
I actually do play bass double lip. large intervals going down are really easy that way. though I have to admit I draw the line standing with the bass and playing double lip, but standing and and the basset horn are fine.
Tom Puwalski, former soloist with the US Army Field Band, Clarinetist with Lox&Vodka, and Author of "The Clarinetist's Guide to Klezmer"and most recently by the order of the wizard of Oz, for supreme intelligence, a Masters in Clarinet performance
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Author: Tom Piercy
Date: 2006-01-19 03:22
David,
I also play bass clarinet (sitting) using double lip embouchure.
Tom Piercy
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-01-19 16:09
My conclusion is that only players named "Tom" who are sitting down, can play double-lip on bass clarinet. As my name is not "Tom" and I do all my practicing standing up (and use only a strap when seated, no peg), I'm authorized by the Embouchure Regulation Board (ERB) to continue using single-lip.
By the way, I tried double-lip last night on my bass (briefly, I'll admit) and I found it distorted my embouchure too much -- I just don't think my mouth is shaped right for it.
The bottom line, as always is: remain open-minded, try different things, but in the end use whatever works best for you.
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Author: Tom Piercy
Date: 2006-01-20 02:42
To David and th ERB:
I don't know the other Tom above, but it could be because I have a big mouth that I am able to use DL on Bass. 
Kal Opperman also uses double lip on bass clarinet - he's the one that got me to use it when I play.
Tom Piercy
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Author: jim S.
Date: 2006-01-21 04:26
I used double-lip on contra. No blurred vision. Can't say that for contrabasson.
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The Clarinet Pages
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