 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: Dwight Manning
Date: 2007-06-13 15:21
Young oboist lands coveted post with ASO
New principal has 'nerves of steel'
By PIERRE RUHE
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Published on: 06/13/2007
In any orchestra, principal oboe is one of the marquee jobs. It demands the highest levels of musical expression, technical perfection and solid leadership among the 95 musicians onstage.
Late last week, just after Elizabeth Koch signed a contract as the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra's new principal oboist, she was asked her feelings about taking on such a glamorous and high-stress new gig. "It's awesome! I can finally get my own car." Koch is 21.
For the full story see: http://www.accessatlanta.com/arts/content/arts/stories/2007/06/12/0613alvoboe.html
Dwight Manning
Teachers College, Columbia University
525 West 120th St. New York, NY 10027
212-678-8252 <dm2723@columbia.edu>
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Author: Bobo
Date: 2007-06-13 15:58
what a great article! It touches on so many things we've discussed on the BBoard...youth vs. experience...the role of luck vs. talent...note she was forced to trade her Yamaha for a Loree (misspelled!), but it doesn't say which model - given the price tag, I'm assuming it was a Royal but the price is actually a bit light for that. Being from Buffalo myself and having played in the Buffalo Youth Orchestra many many years ago, I was happy to read that Buffalo remains a pretty good breeding ground for oboe talent (but I wonder which of the two major teachers in the area she had prior to Curtis)....note that she doesn't even know how to use a gouger yet! What does that tell you?
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Author: wrowand
Date: 2007-06-13 16:38
I don't believe that she doesn't know how to gouge cane. It's more likely that she missed learning how to work on gouging machines.
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2007-06-13 17:00
Wow, it's an honor to have such an accomplished oboist as yourself Professor Manning join the oboe BBoard! I've heard an incredible amount of positive things about your teaching, and have been recommended to take a lesson with you on numerous times, but have not had the opportunity to make my way over to Georgia. I hope we get to hear more of your thoughts in the future.
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2007-06-13 17:09
Who knows? I honestly don't think a Royal necessarily sounds darker than a regular loree. In fact, I've played many Royals that just don't get as much sound, dark or bright, as some regulars, while I recently played an AK that was so dark I thought it was more of a Marigaux sound to me.
I am a bit confused by this article however. She switched to a Loree, which is generally a bit more "ringier" than a Yamaha in my opinion. (I know making such generalizations is like taping a "kick me" sign to my butt), to sound more "mellower" Clevelandish?
By the way, does anyone know why Dlouhy resigned?
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
Post Edited (2007-06-13 18:11)
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Author: Bobo
Date: 2007-06-13 17:42
Professor Manning, do you know who Ms. Koch's teacher was when she was still in Buffalo?
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Author: wrowand
Date: 2007-06-13 18:05
cjwright,
I think you misread the article. It says she's switching from Yamaha to a Loree.
IMO, it's a little odd that a music director would be impressed enough by her playing to hire her and then then tell her to change what oboe she's playing because the other one (the one she was playing when he was so impressed) isn't right. But I'm sure she'll sound great on a Loree as well.
Hmm, I wonder if all of the sections have a list of preferred manufacturers for their instruments :-).
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Author: Bobo
Date: 2007-06-13 18:08
CJ, the other confusing thing is they credit Tabuteau with inventing this "bright, colorful sound"..and then contrast it with the "more austere, mellower" rival Mack Cleveland school, failing to mention that Tabuteau was Mack's primary teacher as well! Sounds like there's a bit of Loree bias down there in Atlanta, but also that they think the Loree (guessing a Royal) projects more effectively in the "acoustical mush", as they call it, of their concert hall. Yet another factor to consider when choosing an oboe!
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2007-06-13 18:10
Whoops, wrote it wrong, read it right. Anyways. I thought it was odd that they associated Loree with a "mellower" cleveland sound. I think Yamaha's are more "mellow" sounding myself.
Forgive me. It's 3am here in Korea.
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
Post Edited (2007-06-13 18:11)
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Author: JRJINSA
Date: 2007-06-13 18:42
>>>Sounds like there's a bit of Loree bias down there in Atlanta...<<<
You'd think they'd be biased towards Covey as they're in Atlanta.
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Author: Bobo
Date: 2007-06-14 12:19
You could be right, Andrew, on the other hand the audience and critical reaction to her performance of the Beethoven speaks for itself, don't you think? People sat up and took notice...this does not sound like someone just playing the notes. If you look at her background, it appears to be one of single minded devotion and intense compressed experience in a variety of settings. But your general point is well taken.
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Author: Dutchy
Date: 2007-06-14 15:45
I have a few remarks made by previous posters that I'd like to address.
Quote:
I am a bit confused by this article however. She switched to a Loree, which is generally a bit more "ringier" than a Yamaha in my opinion. (I know making such generalizations is like taping a "kick me" sign to my butt), to sound more "mellower" Clevelandish?
Quote:
CJ, the other confusing thing is they credit Tabuteau with inventing this "bright, colorful sound"..and then contrast it with the "more austere, mellower" rival Mack Cleveland school, failing to mention that Tabuteau was Mack's primary teacher as well! Sounds like there's a bit of Loree bias down there in Atlanta, but also that they think the Loree (guessing a Royal) projects more effectively in the "acoustical mush", as they call it, of their concert hall. Yet another factor to consider when choosing an obo
Quote:
Anyways. I thought it was odd that they associated Loree with a "mellower" cleveland sound. I think Yamaha's are more "mellow" sounding myself.
Quote:
You'd think they'd be biased towards Covey as they're in Atlanta.
Before we get all cranked up about what this article did or did not say about the American sound, or suppposed Loree bias in Georgia, or why didn't they mention Mack, let us all please consider the source, eh?
It's a music critic.
Pierre Ruhe is the AJC's music critic, covering the fine arts beat in general and the ASO in particular, and while he may have hung around the music world long enough to know which end of the oboe you blow into, he is still probably not qualified to expound knowledgeably on "the Cleveland sound vs. the whatever sound".
All he knows, as a journalist interviewing someone, is what that person tells him. And if that person tells him something about the Cleveland sound, or about Lorees, or about Tabuteau, then that's what he's going to write.
I can find nothing that says that he himself is an oboist. He's a writer, and moreover, a writer writing "soft news" puff pieces for the human interest section. I'd take any and all of his pronouncements about the American sound, or Tabuteau, or Mack, or oboes, with a huge grain of salt.
The only reason you may perceive a Loree bias is because he didn't mention Coveys, and the reason he didn't mention Coveys is almost certainly because he simply doesn't know about them. Again, consider the source here: the music critic of a newspaper.
When was the last time you paid close attention to what a music critic said? 
****************
On the subject of her not learning to use a gouger yet: the article says that she played clarinet, cello, and oboe all through high school, all of which are full-time instruments, so she probably just didn't have time. Normally an oboe student has time to go one-on-one with a teacher and learn to make reeds. But I'll bet that she just plain didn't have time, that she bought reeds from her teacher or someone else.
Also, my understanding is that even high school students playing only the oboe frequently start with gouged cane, because you don't expect kids to start at Square One with reedmaking. You let them start with gouged and shaped cane, because it's just easier, and they have homework to do when they get done with the oboe lesson.
So it's not a character flaw on her part, that she doesn't know how to use a gouger.
If I were her mom, I'd be upset that she had dropped out of Curtis, because oboe jobs don't last forever, and what will she have on her resume if this gig falls through? But she's old enough to make her own decisions, and I suppose that "Principal oboe of the ASO" counts for more on a resume than "Degree from Curtis". ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2007-06-14 15:59
Actually, I disagree with Dutchy on this point. Oboe jobs DO last forever, after the first 3 to 5 years in a position. You get tenured, as you do any other job, and then there's rules stated by the music players union before you get fired, such as being warned for specific reasons and such. Atlanta Symphony Orchestra had several calls for auditions, the first round resulting in no oboists, the second resulting in 3 who all played a concert series and were not deemed worthy, and another resulting in her. So if she's been offered the job, and a contract, then that pretty well means that she'll probably be there for as long as she wishes.
Furthermore, a degree from Curtis doesn't really mean a lot. It's not an accredited school, and isn't really considered a "Bachelor's Degree". However, when it comes to orchestral auditions and applications for professorship positions, having "Principal Oboe, Atlanta Symphony Orchestra" and "3 years, Curtis Institute of Music" means more than the actual diploma. Some auditions won't even let you audition if your musical resume doesn't have some significant orchestral experience.
Atlanta is a very important job, and players such as Joe Robinson and Elaine Douvas have used the position to propel themselves into bigger positions. (Elaine Douvas went directly from Cleveland Institute of Music to Atlanta to the Met, Joe Robinson went from Atlanta to the North Carolina School for the Arts, and then to the NYPhil.)
Finally, I'd state that I doubt she buys her reeds. Some of my friends who were Curtis grads told me that Mr. Woodhams has a reputation for being very strict about having certain basics down, one being that they consistently can make solid reeds and play on them. I would probably agree with the person who previously posted that he bet she didn't know much about adjusting gouging machines. It's not real hard to move a lever back and forth and back and forth to simply gouge a piece of cane.
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Author: Dutchy
Date: 2007-06-14 20:24
Okay, my Surrogate Mom instincts can go back in the box, I guess.
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Author: Bobo
Date: 2007-06-14 20:47
CJ, is it possible to get past the resume stage for an audition without a degree from an oboe school or at least one on the horizon?
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Author: doublereeder2
Date: 2007-06-15 03:19
Well I think it is great for her!!! I wish her all the luck and good reeds in the world!
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2007-06-15 03:40
Yes, if you have extensive playing experience with some mid-sized or larger orchestras.
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Author: ReedWrecker
Date: 2007-06-16 03:04
I found a sound sample on NPR of her playing the first movement of the mozart quartet five years ago (at only 17). Sounded like a pro even at 17.
http://www.fromthetop.org/Files/110503-8.ram
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2007-06-16 13:50
Wow, didn't know she was an interlochen academy alumni. Mr. Stolper must have peed his pants getting a student so talented as that.
Sounds like a nice kid. They've got a great sense of quirky Interlochen humor. Being locked up in the middle of the woods with nothing better to do than practice tends to do that to young minds...
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2007-06-16 17:25
thanks for posting sound sample, alas my windows media player is missing some codecs to play it, doesn't read file extenstion, so at this moment i'm stumped about that, if my computer savvy son is available sometime soon i'll ask him
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Author: ReedWrecker
Date: 2007-06-16 20:18
Yes. The talent is undeniable. From the sample, it is evident that her sound is lighter than the "Cleveland" sound. Expression is more important than sound, and she's got expression to make the music exciting.
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2007-06-17 01:06
<<What is this "Cleveland sound and Philadelphia Sound" I know tone can be influenced from country to country ...but from city to city...is it that definable...?>>
Somewhere on this board, fairly recently, there was a substantial discussion about the "Cleveland" vs. the "Philadelphia" oboe sound. Or maybe it was just a discussion that took place in my own mind?
Andrew, it's just two schools of thought about how an oboe is supposed to sound. The Philadelphia sound is perhaps brighter, more sprightly, more flexible. Elizabeth Koch's sound as a 17-year-old very definitely fits into that profile. Today, I imagine she has developed the lower partials in her tone a little more, and I'll bet she sounds different from that as a 21-year-old.
The Cleveland sound is heavier, "darker", mellower, and probably less flexible. The chief practitioner (possibly the originator) of the Cleveland sound was John Mack. The chief practitioner of the Philadelphia sound . . . I don't know who I would pick. Suggestions?
It has nothing to do with the cities, per se, but with the oboists who had their careers there. And since, as someone on that elusive prior thread has mentioned, John Mack (Cleveland) was a Tabuteau (Philly) student, it all becomes moot at some point.
So -- those who are more into this than I -- who are the poster children for the Cleveland-Mack sound, and who for the Philadephia (Tabuteau) sound?
Susan
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2007-06-17 14:11
<<I am just struggling to see how a player can for want of a better phrase impersonate or develop the same sound given that there are so many outside influences i.e. the reed and the instrument itself and the embouchure which will vary dramatically from person to person...>>
What you say is quite true, Andrew, but my thought is the development of the "accent" (great way of saying it) is done more easily -- and perhaps unconsciously, at the start -- than one might think.
For example, I study with someone who was a Mack student. Immediately, this influences the sound I am being guided to make; it influences the reeds my teacher provides; it influences embouchure formation; it influences the concept of phrasing and articulation taught. But most of all, it influences my ear, because I hear my teacher play, and that becomes the "normative" tone for me -- much like a child adopts the language rhythms and idiosyncracies of a parent.
It all happens at such a "tender age", developmentally speaking, that by the time one is smart enough to think about it, one has already incorporated the traits of the "parent" into their playing.
This is yet another reason why it is important whom you choose for your teacher!
Susan
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Author: Bobo
Date: 2007-06-17 14:21
There's an interesting, though dated, list of oboists and their teachers on the IDRS website that can offer some clues here...the lineage would be as follows:
Tabuteau --> Bloom --> Sprenkle --> Stolper --> Koch
I'm not familiar with Sprenkle's style (he's associated with Eastman, not Curtis), so I don't know if he carried the Philly sound forward, but there's no question that Koch's style is Bloomish and in the direction of Ferrillo's Mozart, light and bright. Her tone and phrasing are just about fully matured, though there are a few fingerflubs at this tender age. Very impressive.
Btw, if you look at the website, Georges Gillet is definitely the grand-daddy of the American school...he apparently taught the most important two French oboists who came here at the beginning of the 20th century...Tabuteau and Fernand Gillet.
http://idrs.colorado.edu/publications/dr/dr12.3/DR12.3.Prodan.Oboists.html#anchor217666
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2007-06-17 15:26
I've seen that list and I think it's next to useless, considering it's 1. incomplete and 2. does not list how long or how much influence a teacher had upon a specific student.
I think it's impossible to associate lineages in the way you have. For example, Stolper studied directly from Tabuteau when he was young before he went to Eastman. Then, after eastman he studied with Mack, and attributes his tonal concept from Mack. (I studied with Stolper for 4 years.)
Meanwhile I wouldn't classify Ferillo's sound as "bright", although his quartet is quite light playing. In contrast, I would describe Ferillo's sound as quite round and dissapated like Mack's. Ferillo studied with deLancie at Curtis, but went on to study with Mack, and would describe himself as a Mack student.
Finally, Georges Gillet might be the root of both Ferdinand Gillet and Tabuteau, but he was still playing french style. In fact, Ferdinand Gillet played french style reeds for many years while playing in the Boston Symphony.
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Author: Bobo
Date: 2007-06-17 16:36
CJ, fair enough..that's very interesting...i was referring specifically to Ferrillo's playing on the Mozart Quartet, i'm not familiar with his playing outside of that; note that i said "in the direction", but calling it "light" is probably more accurate; his tone is certainly very round compared to deLancie. Also, the list may be useless, but my understanding is that it's based on feedback from IDRS members themselves, and Stolper did not list himself as a student of Mack, even secondary, though I don't doubt your first hand account of his attribution of tonal concept to Mack (so maybe the list IS useless), plus I've never heard Stolper's playing...what is it like? I would be interested in having a better understanding of Ferdinand Gillet's impact on the American oboe school - maybe it's quite limited...I read on IDRS that he succeed Clement Lenom at the New England Conservatory (years after leaving the BSO); Lenom was apparently a direct student of Georges Gillet as well, but I don't think what resulted was a generation of "French - school" oboists coming out of Boston, so I wonder how that evolved, maybe what we think as the French school of fifty years ago was also a departure away from Gillet, which I think would strengthen his claim as the grand-daddy? I read somewhere that in fact Gillet's successor at the Paris Conservatoire (Bleuzet) did cause a deviation that is now being corrected through global convergence of the oboe sound. This is speculation, of course, I wonder if anyone out there has insights on this? In fact, my primary teacher was a student of Gillet's, but his tonal concept was very dark and round, and not at all French...well, maybe it's time to give him a call after all these decades so I can figure out what my own lineage really is! (no kidding)
Post Edited (2007-06-17 16:52)
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Author: Bobo
Date: 2007-06-17 17:04
more food for thought...
"Many times I heard Tabuteau give full credit to his own teacher, Georges Gillet, for having initiated him into a way of thinking about music which was to become the basis for all of his own later ideas. I remember once he was talking about Gillet as he walked up Locust Street after leaving a concert at the Academy of Music. Suddenly he stopped in the middle of the sidewalk and said, "I take my hat off to him right now," and proceeded to do so with the utmost seriousness and respect. To me this was also a lesson, to see that at the height of his own accomplishment, he was ready to pay tribute to his teacher of so long ago."
from
http://idrs.colorado.edu/publications/TWOboist/TWO.V2.1/TWO.V2.1.Tabuteau.html
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2007-06-17 23:30
What a great Tabuteau article! I hadn't seen this one. I love that quote...
"There are three kinds of conductors, those who let you play, those who make you play, and those who keep you from playing ...Ha, Ha, Ha .
Even 50 years later... so very true...
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2007-06-18 02:57
Thanks for the links! The Gillet one is very interesting, and confirms that he did play short scraped French reeds and implies that he did so throughout his entire BSO career. Can you imagine? A French oboist in the Boston Symphony Orch today?
So, does this mean he's an "American Oboist" or a French Oboist in America?
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Author: Bobo
Date: 2007-06-18 12:55
However, Gillet stopped making his own reeds as a teenager...apparently, Jean de Vergie made them for him at the BSO, so they were almost certainly French scraped reeds. I wonder if there are any recordings of his out there? Nothing on Arkiv. There must be at least some BSO recordings with him playing principal.
This priceless IDRS article by Allan Vogel, who was taught by great masters of the American, French, and German schools (Bloom, Gillet, Koch, among others) doesn't give much of a clue regarding Gillet's sound, though it has a lot to say about his mastery as a musical interpreter, but when he gets to writing about Bloom, it's all about tone:
http://www.idrs.org/Publications/Journal/JNL6/vogel.html
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2009-03-04 08:15
I think it's silly that one is supposed to 'know how to use a gouger' as some sort of measurement for being a great player... Not every good reed maker is also a machinist.
GoodWinds
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