 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: Craig Matovich
Date: 2006-12-02 21:01
Forgive if this has been discussed before. I am pretty new to this BBoard and don't see it in view...
I would be interested in hearing thoughts on using windows in oboe reeds.
My first teacher taught me about them and used a 'staggered' placement with the left window a bit above the right window on a given side. They did line up in similar positions from side blade to blade.
Since him, I've only ever seen them placed evenly side-to-side.
I use a fairly typical american scrape ala the reeds in the David Weber manual.
I would be interested to hear other's thoughts about them, placement, hate vs love them, etc. Whatever.
Do players using non-american scrapes do them or have a different technique to share?
Thanks,
-Craig
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2006-12-02 22:55
Craig --
Did you teacher (the one who taught you to "stagger" the windows) tell you *why* he liked to do this?
I don't really know. I have speculated (pure speculation!) that a little unevenness in the scrape might (might!) lead to a more complex set of partials being sounded when the reed is played, and thus give the impression of a "darker" sound. When I look at my all-time favorite reeds, their scrapes do tend to be a little asymmetric, but it has never been clear to me if the reedmaker (I buy my reeds) was intending that effect, or if that's just how they turned out.
I'd also raise for discussion the point that it may not be the shape of the windows, per se, but the relationship of the windows to the heart, that makes the difference.
I have found that my favorite reeds tend to have hearts that are relatively heavy, and windows that are relatively thin, with quite a pronounced "stop" where the windows meet the heart. The left and right sides of each blade on these reeds do not match (i.e., the stop will occur higher on one half of the reed than on the other), but the front and back blades of the reeds do match, more-or-less.
The other thing I have noticed about reeds with this sort of construction is that they last and last and last -- gotta love that!
Susan
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2006-12-02 23:25
I know this staggering of windows concept well. I know Bloom used to teach it to his students, and although it hasn't passed on through history, some do use it.
The reason to stagger the windows is a more practical one; back in the day when people used a smaller gouge with smaller openings, the reeds tended to close down more. Staggering the windows offered additional support in the back, while getting maximum darkness by digging out the back.
However, I think it didn't prevail namely because the gouge evolved, and people are using bigger gouges now (Ross, Opus1, tend to have "bigger openings", graf and RDG tend to be smaller. Haven't tried the Ferillo). Therefore, since the gouge has made big enough openings (or big enough sides to hold the opening open) there is no longer a need to add this additional support. People just assume to take out the last amount of cane to add the extra depth.
By the way, I spoke to Mr. Weber about this concept and he does not do this anymore.
My best suggestion would be that if your gouge feels weaker, or your openings don't stay open, do as the RMM says and after tying, scrape down a tip and clip it open to encourage the opening to open up. Then, take a look at the reed tendancy and if the opening looks good enough, then don't bother staggering. If you think it my close up, then try staggering again.
One last note: Mr. Killmer (Eastman, Yale), preaches on the "eveness of the two blades", stating that when there is symmetry both from left to right of a blade, and from blade to blade, the reed vibrates best, and you are left with the purest tone available in that reed. Therefore by staggering, you will never gain symmetry from left to right of a reed. But this is just one school of oboe reed.
Again... I ramble.
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Author: Craig Matovich
Date: 2006-12-02 23:36
CJW, You call it rambling. I call it a good answer.
I appreciate the discource. And to also answer Susan, no, I did not get a very detailed answer from my first teacher about windows. Or perhaps I don't remember it well.
I was only 12 years old then, and it was my first year of reed making.
I am now 51... and still at it. Like you, Susan, I notice in old good reeds certain patterns and offset windows, or narrower 'scraped gouges' in their place is someting I see there.
Per CJWright's notes, I do tend toward a small tip opening for the most part, tend to prefer 10.5 - 11.0 mm cane diameters, not for the sound but because I associate them with more even scales of pitch. To get more volume, I use a shorter reed and a concept of maximum vibrancy at non-nodal points of reed excitation... (sorry, but thats how I describe it after 20 years of IT work and lots of statistical projects. Perhaps a topic for another thread?)
I get a higher yield of performance quality reeds with good projection and good response but they do tend to have relatively short lives compared to reeds with larger openings.
Keep 'em coming. I still love this reed talk after all these years.
-Craig
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2006-12-02 23:50
Then yes, it does sound as though you would want to continue to experiement with the offset windows.
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Author: Craig Matovich
Date: 2006-12-03 00:27
I play at 'altitude' living SW of Denver CO. Usually I play at a mile high or higher above sea level and I find shorter thinner reeds work better up here.
My second teacher was an Eastman grad with a completely beautiful tone. He suggested I never make reeds shorter than 68.5 mm. I did that for years while playing in Md. and Va., but since moving to Co. 13 years ago have made reeds as short as 67.5 on a 46 mm tube ( Brannon x shape and otherwise classic gouge of .45 -.58 mm( or .60).
I stopped using windows for a while but now use them again and try to make a distinction between cane where I need 'hold back' vibrations and cane where I need 'encourage vibrations'.
Its the encouraging kind where I employ windows of any sort and think I will experiment a bit further with the offsets there and see if I learn anything useful.
Mostly , whatever I do, I try for reeds that maintain pitch consistency from tuning 'a' through the next upper e w/o any lip change. If I get that, then I go for a dropping to 'low e' w/o change, then a up to a octave, then up to '3rd octave d and 'e' w/o change. The rare reed that does all that is so much fun to play its hard to describe.
Only caveat is I can only expect it to work with equal tempermant instruments, so not quite as fun in orchestral settings.
But those reeds really play!
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2006-12-03 00:53
Excuse me. It was a concept of Robert Sprenkle's I believe. Not Bloom's. I get those Roberts mixed up.
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Author: d-oboe
Date: 2006-12-03 01:22
Keep in mind, the overriding purpose of the "windows" is for the purpose they serve. They exist (mainly) because the scrape is longer, and thus are a continuation of (some of) the tip vibrations that happen before the heart. (The heart's general purpose is to set the pitch - its thickness and placement have the biggest effect on the pitch)
So in other words, anyone whose scrape is of the "long" variety will have some form of "windows." Here are some of my observations of "windows"
- reeds with narrower shapes generally have thinner windows
- reeds with wider shapes have more cane left in the windows
- reeds that are finished longer have more cane left in the windows
- reeds that are short have thinner windows
- reeds that are finished with thicker windows tend to last through more adjusting and playing than do thin-windowed reeds
My hints:
-I believe it is important to scrape the back only to balance the rest of the
reed.
-don't "seperate" the back from the heart. So while there is a distinct downcurve from the thick heart to the thinner windows, don't make a ridge. I find this unnecessarily stops vibration - cane can easily be cleared out of the tip, and/or back corners of the tip to acheive stability
-make sure the spine is in the middle of the reed
-make sure the back occupies the same space on both blades
-finish your reeds with the most length possible this will greatly improve intonation.
Symmetry is probably the most important thing. Otherwise don't bother gouging your own cane. The whole point of symmetrical blades is to match the (hopefully) symmetrical gouge!
Post Edited (2006-12-03 01:25)
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2006-12-03 01:32
"-finish your reeds with the most length possible this will greatly improve intonation. "
Not sure what you mean by this. I can finish a reed at 72mm and it will play at 440 (with the right gouge, shape, and scrape) but it won't have great intonation, particularly in the high register.
I think what d-oboe described is a certain kind of reed style. By chance, are your hearts sloped to a point toward the back and then downslope, or do they remain rather parallel to each other? (If you look at the side of your reed, would you say the shape of a blade is constantly "angle-ing upward or downward" or does the heart kind of even out? This is a distinct difference between Philly Style vs. Cleveland/Mack style. Mack used the windows do "deaden" vibration in the back, and to control the opening. Philly is more "playing on the tip" oriented, and would be as described by D-oboe.
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2006-12-03 02:41
intersting topic :-) especially the higher altitude shorter reed experience
<<'staggered' placement with the left window a bit above the right window on a given side. They did line up in similar positions from side blade to blade>>
when i was introduced to cutting the more advanced 'cathedral window' reed in 4th beginner's year 'way back when in 60's, i recall being told to stagger the length of the lower windows by about 1/10 to 1/8 inch, but the upper windows right under the heart (or bridge) should be as symetrical as possible and equally cut in depth
for the lower windows though, apparently it depended on which side of my mouth i held the reed while lifting my lip for air exchange during venting breath technique. I'm right dominant (lift left upper lip for venting) so i was told to cut the lower window a bit longer on the right side of the reed when it's in the oboe, ditto if turn reed over, this meant back to back blades were consistent asymetrical pairs same as they were on each blade
the explanation given me at the time was that there's a tiny bit more automatic rollover when venting, so it's better to have a 'flatter' window on my lip contact side as rollover sharpens notes
Dunno, had my lessons continued on to circular breathing technique, whether i would have received different instructions for cutting lower windows evenly and symmetrical later
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Author: d-oboe
Date: 2006-12-03 03:00
What I mean is that a reed that satisfies all requirements (pitch, response, stability) will tend to have better intonation, if it is longer.
I don't just mean the length alone, because if the tip is too long for the reed...then of course high notes will be off...what I mean is that a reed that is completely finished at a longer length has a few features that a too-short reed doesn't:
-more "natural" response: the reed's tie-on length is where the reed naturally vibrates the most, and with each clip more and more cane has to be removed to ensure proper response...which means that
-more cane can be left on a longer reed: which gives the reed more structure, and allows for greater dynamic potential, gives a more secure opening, and the reed will last longer.
The only "downside" is that the reed can't be made by relying on crow alone. It requires testing quite early on in the process to determine scraping procedures.
To the "intonation" thing. It's hard to describe...it's not pitch...it's intonation. The reeds just sound more in tune. (maybe I should just say reeds that are not short?) A short reed, even if it crows in tune, and seems to play at 440 easily enough, always has a bizarre quality to it - it becomes impossible to blend with other players.
I know this is true by the fact I can often play easily in tune with other members of the orchestra (clarinet, flute, violin etc) better than I can play in tune with the other oboists in my section, all who play on short reeds. (average 68mm)
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Author: Craig Matovich
Date: 2006-12-03 03:10
My emphasis on close symmetry has mostly focused on the heart and tip areas more so than the back. There if the heart is well balanced blade-to-blade, a visual test for closure was emphasized over the back-lighted comparison of tip gradation as viewed under the light.
A test for this aspect is to look down into the opening from the top while squeezing the reed closed gently by pressing on both sides of the heart between thumb and first finger.
A littel practice is needed, but soon the thinner areas close first and thicker parts later. The imbalance becomes obvious. Its a good way to identify where more cane need be taken off to achieve a balance in the tip. In my case, usually the right side of each blade tip is a little thicker than the left, even if I've counted scrapes along the way.
Removing the extra cane to achieve balance also lowers the pitch a bit, but also brings the reed to life. Then a little tip clip and I'm back in business.
This technique I learned from Ron Erler. He taught at Shenandoah Conservatory and later played with the Airforce Band for a long time.
He taught me many things, but I think of this as the one standout that really helped me.
Now, I will think more about overall balance, symmetry and the other things mentioned in this thread.
I agree with CJWright, the more cane left the better, and just go shorter out of a need to raise the pitch to 440 Hz with a fairly relaxed embouchure.
(I agree the longer reeds sound better, much better, but they tend to be 5 -10 Hz low in pitch w/o biting.)
Thanks to all and more please, I got's to have more!
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Author: hautbois
Date: 2006-12-03 12:28
Symmetry is not one of my prime goals in reed-making. Consider that even though the two blades of cane come from one piece, there still are variations in grain and density in the two resulting pieces; and consider that the teeth and lips above and below the reed are not identical in shape. Symmetry for me is only a general guideline. If I find a difference in the arc of the blades of cane, I place the more rounded piece on the top to get the most control and best tone.
Like CM, I also play at altitude (my home is at 7700 feet), and also find that shorter reeds (usually 46mm tube with total length of 68mm) produce more stability and a longer-lasting opening. I use a Stevens #2 or Chudnow CA staple, which provides support to the larger opening necessary at altitude. And like d-oboe, I find that a blend from the heart to the windows instead of a cliff works best to produce fluidity of vibration. The thinness of the windows for me is dictated primarily by the fluidity of the low notes.
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Author: Craig Matovich
Date: 2006-12-03 19:20
By "thinness of the window" do you mean depth of scrape or width of the window?
You mention a fluidity of the low notes. Is there a corwing or playing test you use to decide when windows are finished?
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Author: hautbois
Date: 2006-12-03 20:10
Sorry to not be clear, Craig. By "thinness" I mean the depth of the scrape into the cane, not the width. (I leave considerable bark on either side of the windows.) And I test the fluidity of the low notes by playing, not crowing, focusing on attack as well as ability to diminuendo on e.g., low C. Generally I make the windows along with the rest of the reed. But I find that the last two places I address in finishing the reed are making sure the tip of the tip is thin enough (especially on the sides of the tip, not so much in the center of the tip), and the thinness of the windows as they relate to low notes. I find that the blend into the heart and the part of the windows immediately below the heart relates to general fluidity, and that the thinness of the part of the windows closer to the thread affects the low notes more specifically.
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Author: Craig Matovich
Date: 2006-12-03 21:25
Thanks. I think you describe things extremely well. I try to imagine a picture of what you describe and if I see two pics in my mind (because I impose some ambuguity on the thought), I ask more questions.
Again, an occupational hazard from years of systems analysis work in IT on my part, not a shortcoming on your descriptions.
Hmm... makes me wonder about more things as usual.
I wonder about using something like a Dremel tool to place windows rather than a knife.
I wonder about hearing samples of other BBoarder's playing.
Do we have a mechanism to attach sound files that would not overwhelm the site? I have seen some pics and they seem to work well.
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Author: mschmidt
Date: 2006-12-04 19:57
I appreciate all the thoughtful responses on this topic, and I have learned a lot about how others make reeds.
But I feel compelled to remark that none of my reeds have Windows. All my reeds run MacOS X v. 10.3.9. ;^)
Mike
Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore
Post Edited (2006-12-04 19:58)
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Author: hautboisteur
Date: 2006-12-12 12:02
The concept of windows has changed over the years for me, depending on evolving sound concepts. I was taught that windows are made in order to make a darker sound, improve the reed's flexibility and to enrich the sound and make it deeper. That was the place where the Velvet tone lies, as I understood it.
At that time the profiles of the reeds I made was slanting sharply downwards, reaching a big bump of the heart and sloping downwards again towoards the tip. Special attention was paid to that area, because of the tone quality it represented to me, so I took care to make thin windows and scrape them seperately. This, together with a thin tip and a thick heart to hold the reed together created a sound with a lot of high frequncies, a lot of lower frequencies and no middle. Sort of De-Lancy sound.
Later, I changed my approach: I wanted to make the parts of the reed blend more evenly. So the scrape was along the entire back this way: two or three short strokes from the beginning of the scrape to its middle and then several longer strokes over the entire back. This created a profile that slanted downwards without too much of a bump at the heart and created a smoother surface overall. The windows were thus created more naturally. This gives more stability and focus to the sound and vibrations flow more freely along the reed.
Today I scrape the back so as to give the reed more vibrations and do not make such a big deal out of the windows. I still make them, but not as thin as they used to be, maybe adding a few strokes to the back of the back, not more.
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