 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2006-04-14 02:44
So, for the past four months, I have been more-or-less in Remedial Embouchure Boot Camp. Just got my discharge papers today -- I'm good to go again (whew!).
But my teacher and I got into a discussion about the oft-cited advice of "playing on the tip" on the reed, versus letting the embouchure move in a little.
I've now got the playing-on-the-tip thing down (and I do mean, right on the tip, modified only to get a consistent sound). It makes a very nice, dark sound to do this. But my teacher states that playing on the tip leaves one with less flexibility in fast work, and can make the low tones wonky. She sent me home with some of her (very, very good) reeds (I don't mean they're HERS, but she made them), and I immediately noticed that, when I play on their tips, I am flat as all get out. So, to be in tune, I have to move in on the reed a little -- which is how my teacher and her husband both play. The tone is still wonderful, and these are probably the easiest reeds I've ever played. Perfect resistance, perfect stability, wonderful tone.
So why am I complaining?
Because all my other reeds (also from skillful makers) seem to require playing on the tip to get the same effect.
So, my question for the group is, do YOU play on the tip, or down the reed a few millimeters? What are the benefits and/or hazards of doing it one way or the other, in your opinion? Or do you adjust to the individual reed?
These are American scrape reeds I am talking about, BTW, although I would welcome comments from those who use other styles, as well.
Susan
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Author: d-oboe
Date: 2006-04-14 11:57
I think "playing at the tip" is sometimes misinterpreted to mean that the same amount of reed needs to be exposed at all times. But really, the general idea behind it is that the tip is the most flexible part, and in order to play there one has to use the most flexible part of the mouth: the red spongy part of your lips.
I am a complete convert to "lips only" oboe playing. I do still "roll in and out" depending on how high or low a note is, but I found this has become a smaller movement lately. The advantage to this type of playing is that it is extremely flexible, and you can do pretty much anything you want with a phrase. The disadvantage is that the reed really does have to work properly. It's not as easy to "cover" a bad sounding reed when playing this way....BUT it will give you more flexibility on said reed, despite the bad sound.
I think it is more important to think of having a flexible setup, rather than stressing over how much the reed is actually in your mouth. If you have really big soft spongy lips, you may need to pull the reed in further than someone with thin lips. You will know if your setup is not flexible. Ask these questions: can I tongue a low note without honking? Can I slur from a high note to a low note without getting harmonics? Does the sound stay true from one note to the next? Or am I adjusting for each individual note...?
D
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2006-04-14 12:19
Ver-r-r-r-y interesting, D.
The teacher I am working with talks all the time about the need to move the reed in and out. And she is also big on the idea of adjusting for each individual note. Is this a style of playing and/or teaching that is losing currency?
Curiously enough, I seem to roll one way or the other automatically -- an ear thing? -- without any particular effort. At least, that's what it feels (and looks) like to me. It's very subtle, but it accomplishes the task. And my low notes are easy, my high notes speak, my octave leaps are solid -- for the most part, at least. I certainly am not moving the instrument in and out in a conscious way.
So, what is this "lips only" thing? I didn't know we had other options . . .
Susan
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Author: d-oboe
Date: 2006-04-14 14:39
-Adjusting for every note-
Every note has its tendencies, and yes they have to be corrected...BUT what most often happens is that players get into habits of correcting unnecessarily. For example, the center C. I hear soooooooo many recordings, where you KNOW that the player is covering that C, or compensating here and there. The minor corrections to individual notes should NOT NOT NOT be audible. In a simple phrase, each note should have the same color. Not a covered one, a bright one, a shy one....
-Reed in and out-
I move automatically too
-lips only playing -
Well it's pretty much what it sounds like. It takes a good while to learn how to do this - that part of the mouth has pretty much no muscle mass in it. (I've been working this lips-only thing for a while now, and wow those "lip biceps" are getting big!!)
The main advantages are
-that it completely dispenses with the jaw, and the teeth - the those two inflexible killers of oboe tone.
-It makes tonguing (sp?) much easier too because the tongue is in a more relaxed position where it meets the reed.
-It also dispenses with having to hold the jaw really open - the lips-only method is so flexible a big opening between the teeth is largely unnecessary.
Other styles of playing....(Eastern european :S..shhh I didn't say that) tend to pull the reed in quite far - the contact point of reed-tip and lips is at, or beyond the teeth. I've never been taught in that style, so I can't really comment, but from what I hear, the tone is less flexible, but it is more dynamic. So many choices!
D
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Author: GMac
Date: 2006-04-14 14:45
Oh, the endless debate...here are my 2 cents.
First off, I play on an American scrape reed, and I'm studying with James Mason who studied with Richard Woodhams and John De Lancie, who are both exponents of the "Philadelphia" style of playing. This style of playing (and consequently, my style of playing) is to play way, way out on the tip. For me, this means that the tip of the reed never goes farther into my mounth than the line on my bottom lip (except a tiny, TINY bit in the extreme high register) that divides the outer from the inner part (do you know the line I'm referring to? The inner part starts where the lips get much more smooth, and it's a different shade of red). When I set up my embouchure, I put the end (tip) of the reed right on that line, and I do roll in a bit, but that also depends on what register I'm playing in.
I have experimented a lot with playing with a bit more reed in my mouth, and I can honestly say that I think that while it 'feels' easier at first (it feels like you have more control), it's kind of like when you're biting the reed...it feels as though you have more control but really you actually don't. It's a false sense of security. The main differences that I find between the two schools of playing are...
With more reed in your mouth...
- The pitch will tend to be higher in general, but particularly in the upper register (A above the staff and higher)
- You will produce a louder sound with less effort (louder, but not necessarily one that projects better, more about that later)
- You will also produce a brighter sound
- The low notes will not speak as easily
- The pitch is more even between registers, meaning that you will not have to put as much effort into changing your embouchure between the low (low Bb-G#), middle (A-G#) and high (A-above) registers
- However, often when you have more reed in the mouth, certain notes will tend to 'stick out' on your instrument, particularly middle C will be really bright/edgy, the F natural (top line of the staff) will probably be sharp and loud, the G at the top of the staff will be sharp, and there are others.
When you play way on the tip...
- The sound is much warmer, and softer. It is a very dolce sound
- You are able to get quieter with much less effort
- Notes do not stick out of the line. Generally, tone quality is much more consistent with this embouchure
- Low notes speak much, much easier at any dynamic (I was very surprised at what you said about low notes being harder to get when on the tip, the conventional wisdom is that the exact opposite is true)
- To really be on the tip you absolutely have to have a very stable, tight reed. Otherwise, you really will be flat overall and your upper register will be really flat.
The thing about playing on the tip is that it enables you to really, really blow and support without the sound getting edgy. This produces a really resonant sound that will project really well without having the brightness/edge that I find I get when I play with more reed in my mouth.
Are your reeds really tight? By that, I mean a few things...
- Do they seal really well, all the way up to the top of the reed? Put your finger on the bottom of the tube to block it and suck on the reed, starting from the bottom of the cane and moving up the reed to the very end. You'll be able to feel if it's leaking (and hear it). Make sure it's not leaking because your lips aren't sealed around the reed properly (i.e. it's leaking from between your lips but you think it's the reed).
- What are they like when you crow them? Put your lips where the bottom of the cane and the top of the tube meet, and play a long tone on the reed like that, without trying to influence how it's going to sound. Just start with blowing softly and then blow harder and harder. The crow should be around a C (or a really sharp B) with a hint of lower octave coming in. If there's too much lower octave in the crow or the pitch changes a lot as you do this exercise, the reed is flabby and you will have a lot of pitch problems if you're right out on the tip.
The thing is that when you play with more reed in your mouth, it gives you a false sense of ease because you don't have to blow as much to get a big sound, and have to put in less embouchure effort. However, I really think that you will find that if you really, really blow as hard as you can that you'll be getting an edgy sound doing that. You can argue that you should just not blow as hard, but I think you'll really find that having a setup where you don't have to support as much as you possibly can is going to be really detrimental to your playing. When you're not blowing as much, small changes in the embouchure can have a large effect on tone quality, pitch, etc. When you're blowing a lot, all of the reed is vibrating all of the time, and changes in embouchure will not affect the tone quality and pitch as much. When you play on the tip, you will not only get a darker, warmer sound, but you will also get that added resonance and depth because you can afford to really blow and support more. Don't fall into the trap of learning to blow and support less because it feels easier at first! Yes, you will have to change your embouchure between the high/mid/low registers more when playing way on the tip, but I feel that this is a lot less work than learning to compensate with your embouchure for the problems that you get when playing with more reed in your mouth.
I have also found that articulation is easier when I'm way on the tip. It's a smoother attack, and I can simply get it a lot faster.
One thing to think about as well is that you really have to have a pretty strong reed to play on the tip. This does not mean that it has to be a hard, resistant reed!! This just means that there have to be good rails in the back and a decently prominent spine right down the heart and the back. If the reed closes down easily, playing on the tip won't work.
To play the devil's advocate a bit, there are some great players out there that play with more reed in the mouth, and they've made that work for them, and I admire that a lot. However, I simply think that making a reed that will sound good with this style playing is too much effort for the benefits that you get.
So, can you tell which school I favour?? :P
Graham
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2006-04-14 15:33
Hey, Graham and Damon --
Thanks for the intelligent discussion!
Since I have learned (I won't say "mastered" -- yet) the ability to play on the extreme tip, I really, really like it. It seems to solve a lot of the color and intonation problems I was having. And it seems virtually fool-proof, as well -- i.e., you are not nearly as dependent on having a "perfect" reed in order to sound OK.
I was just wondering what "most" of the American scrape players do -- play at the tippy-tip, or take a little more reed. Because I am at the point right now where two roads are diverging in the yellow wood, and I feel more comfortable with one (tip), but my teacher advocates, and is demonstrably successful with, the other.
It's not like she is demanding that I do it her way. We have had this conversation, and her bottom line is, if it sounds good, it is good. One just has to find a way that works for them, and do it.
I'm amazed at the divergent ways in which one apparently can approach the oboe, and still create an acceptable sound. No rules, just right?
Susan
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Author: oboeblank
Date: 2006-04-14 16:11
I think it depends a lot on the style of playing and reed making in general.
I play with a lot of reed in my mouth because I like to play with a lot of resistance. You cannot play with that resistance on the tip, you will be working so hard with little pay off.
I think that we can speak in generalities, but that doesn't help. Elaine Douvas plays with a lot of reed in her mouth and she doesn't sound bright or edgy at all. Dick Woodhams plays with little reed in his mouth and he sounds "light"-meaning his tone lacks sufficient body, and I have heard him live on many occasions and have been surprised that his tone sometimes comes across with an edge.
Who is correct-well it depends whose playing you admire.
I studied with a teacher who played on the tip and up close in our lessons he sounded like a god, but in the orchestra he sounded tiny, his tone never projected and his intonation was suspect. He was a beautiful player and principal of a major orchestra, but I realised that his playing was not right for me.
When I started to work with other teachers who played with a lot more reed in their mouth I found that a lot of the problems I had disappeared. It took some time to get used to, but in the end it worked for me.
Trust in your teacher Susan, especially if you like what she does and you like the way she sounds. That is the best thing to do.
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2006-04-14 16:35
... hey! thanks, GMac, for this informative '2 cents', you've explained several things about intonation that i've been struggling with since starting on american scrape reeds, didn't really understand why teachers have been harping on about just playing the tip since last summer already, that's not where my reeds seem to want to sing in my embouchure as it is just now
... really really identify with what you say << it 'feels' easier at first (it feels like you have more control), it's kind of like when you're biting the reed...it feels as though you have more control but really you actually don't. It's a false sense of security >>
... i'm of the belief it's all probably down to an embouchure growth and development thing, as lips get better from regular practice over the years, one is able to move one more step closer towards optimum reed-playing style on american scrape reed
... also totally identify with <<certain notes will tend to 'stick out' on your instrument, particularly middle C will be really bright/edgy, the F natural (top line of the staff) will probably be sharp and loud, the G at the top of the staff will be sharp, and there are others >> to which i can add G# top octave, wow, ear painfully wide tone plus # up from F#
... ditto identify with << you will also produce a brighter sound >> teacher has been repeating over and over lately that i need to develop a darker sound, so your detailed explanation has been really really helpful, thanks, isn't this board a great place to learn things?
... for me over here, this is definitely an ear re-training thing, because i was originally trained in the 'brighter sound' which is quite acceptable elsewhere, and where the three zone structured u-scrape reed can deliver both bright and dark tonality, but since it is very complex and intricate to actually make and requires a very well developed embouchure to manage it effectively, it definitely isn't a beginner's reed
... so now, having identified the problems (notes sticking out etc) and knowing the american style reed has to be played at the tip, the next step for me is to learn how to do that without feeling like the reed's not there at all (guess my lips not yet developed enough sensitivity, probably still pressing too hard to 'control' it)
... one of the pluses you mentioned with more reed in mouth
<< The pitch is more even between registers, meaning that you will not have to put as much effort into changing your embouchure between the low (low Bb-G#), middle (A-G#) and high (A-above) registers >>
... this seems to answer ohsusan's question, this position is obviously useful and seems quite appropriate for 'blending in with the ensemble', so playing at the tip is not cast in stone, it's relative
... <<One thing to think about as well is that you really have to have a pretty strong reed ... this means that there have to be good rails in the back and a decently prominent spine right down the heart and the back. If the reed closes down easily, playing on the tip won't work >>
... many previous posts have mentioned reeds closing down for them and i've had that too, especially with the taper scrape commercial reeds i started on, so my bottom line comment is that it probably does depend mostly on where one's embouchure development is at, and the type of reed one can manage effectively at that stage of growth will determine how much tip playing is actually possible at that point in time
QUESTION ... when playing just the tip, do you actually feel some 'buzz' sensation on the lips? Trying to explain my question, i've tried a bassoon reed, it really buzzes my lips a lot at those lower vibrations, but i can't feel faster vibrations as buzz on my lips with oboe reeds, is it meant to be that one should or could feel a slight vibrational buzz ?
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2006-04-14 19:02
Mr. Richard Woodhams came to Malaysia with the Philadephia Orchestra years ago and they played beautifully, but honestly it felt like the legend which i have always known through articles and well, forums, didnt project and play as well as i expected, much to the dissapointment of many in the crowd of oboe players. I love the late John De Lancie, at least in a recording of his of the Flower Clock by Francaix and the Strauss Concerto, although i do not favour the American style of playing, but might it be that a live experience would be a total change of image?
Maybe different styles of playing are measured differently and because of that it is often misunderstood that one method will work for almost everyone and students do not try to experiment with what might work better for them. I remember reading Ledet's reed style book and he mentioned in a big paragraph that reed style and the general teaching in embouchure (+how much reed is taken in) is influenced by the basic few things:
- Lip pressure of particular player.
- Effort in blowing. (Air speed + volume of air)
- Concept of sound, whether it be ensemble playing or solo playing.
Australian Bart Schneemann, a student of Han De Vries has a terribly dark and warm sound, much to the preference of today's international orchestras in the trend of ultimate blend of sound. He complained in an interview that the traditional Dutch style reed had so many disadvantages such as of lack of ease in controlling dynamics and articulation and so forth, but if that is so how do legends like Han De Vries manage them? I guess it all comes down to how one approaches the sound of the oboe. Mr. Bart strives for the baroque oboe sound in his quest for the ultimate tone.
German players are traditionally taught to play with a sort of 'smiling' embouchure, which is technically necessary for the authentic style of reed making over there because it requires so much lip pressure to control those reeds. And like d-oboe said they do take in more reed that usual, because of the pitch standards (A=445 in the Berlin Philharmonic, flautist James Galway had to make a custom head joint just for that years back.) incoporated into their style of playing, essential for their concept of reed making. Dark sound, but cutting off flexibility?
After reading extensively on articles and books regarding the American style of reed making, i think the reed roll in-out concept is logic because the authentic way of making reeds in the American style tends to produce reeds that are easily in tune in the lower register but goes flatter on the upper. Of course the variables that might exist among different reed makers i shall not discuss today but that leads to the fact that Susan's teacher advocates another form of making reeds that pushes her to play with more reed in the mouth cavity.
I myself play at the very tip (yes at last back to the topic) of the reed most of the time, and i find that it works for my reeds, and that they truly vibrate better and sound more resonant in this way for me. I do not aim for a particular tone, since i am still such an amateur in this, but i strongly believe that tone is color, and color should contain all the shades it requires for a painting to shine. e.g. If a bright sound is required somewhere, and taking in more reed helps but sacrifices intonation, i counter that in some way. I believe in the homogenious of tone color throughout a phrase but till what extend does this apply to in music?
d-oboe said:
"BUT what most often happens is that players get into habits of correcting unnecessarily."
This was what happened to me years ago. Truly unfortunate. Until a student surpasses the level of 'intermediate', i think it is advised to not touch this particular topic of tone color too vastly. When a student grows to achieve the standard of playing he requires to alter creatively, then he will naturally be able to play with different colors, and he will strive for that. Simply said make them play at the tip =), and to encourage a uniform tone throughout the whole register.
I give my utmost respect to the different schools of playing and i truly believe that we can all learn from each other and apply what we feel is good for ourselves. Good thread =)
Howard
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2006-04-14 21:52
vboboe wrote:
"QUESTION ... when playing just the tip, do you actually feel some 'buzz' sensation on the lips? "
Aha! That was the antepenultimate question I asked my teacher, a week before I finally hit on the combination of air and lip that works for me. I was getting what seemed to be a promising sound when I "felt" the buzz of the reed. (She had said something in my lesson about her being able to feel the overlap of the reed while it is in her mouth, so I started getting all touchy-feely about it, too. Prior to that, I wasn't feeling anything. I think I was just numb from trying too hard.)
At any rate, her answer to my question, "Should one feel the buzz?" was a resounding "No!"
I was crushed.
That's when I went back to trying to play on the tip, period. I figured, I know how to blow this thing so that it will make NO SOUND at all. So why not start there, and let up by degrees, until it is workable. And that's what I did. And it worked. And is still working weeks later, and becoming automatic, glory be! And my teacher says it's gorgeous -- high praise, indeed.
On the way to casting off the embouchure chains that were binding me,
I made myself a little check list, to which I referred literally every time I put the reed in my mouth. Here's the list:
Pucker
Tip
Gut
Nose
Jaw
I'll bet every one of you understands that list! In case you don't, just ask. ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
Susan
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2006-04-15 01:31
thanks, that seems like a great method to figure out how to play just the tip, will experiment thataway too, love your list :-)
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Author: GaryT1957
Date: 2006-04-15 01:34
Great discussion everybody. I love that list, Susan. I play on the tip as well. In fact, all the years I played...I didn't know any other technique.
As for the buzzy feeling...only the first few times I played the oboe did that happen. It quickly went away. My roommate used to play the bassoon, he said the same thing...first time ya blow on a double reed is the only time you might feel a buzzy or tickling sensation.
Gary
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Author: sylvangale
Date: 2006-04-15 02:52
Quote:
Pucker
Tip
Gut
Nose
Jaw
I'll bet every one of you understands that list! In case you don't, just ask.
Is that nose bit, nose breathing? I can't imagine anything else.
Regards,
Stephen
Los Angeles, CA
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2006-04-15 04:21
<Is that nose bit, nose breathing? I can't imagine anything else>
I use a nose focus to start the tone. It's almost like you're going to push water out your nose, or something. It's a great little technique.
I learned about it in a seminar from Robert Sorton, oboe prof. at OSU (THE Ohio State University). He wants a mouth breath in, and a nose breath out.
I think a lot of oboists do this, no?
Susan
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Author: sylvangale
Date: 2006-04-15 05:15
Hmm, that's interesting. Never encountered anything like that. Is the effect similar to raising the soft pallet area of the mouth?
I did endure nose breathing though. Absolutely hated it. Was forced to breathe both in and out. I think at the time I had enough trouble breathing normally. lol.
Regards,
Stephen
Los Angeles, CA
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Author: GMac
Date: 2006-04-15 13:33
Great discussino we have going here...thanks OhSuzan!
Oboeblank, I think we have to clear something up a bit, you said that you can't play with a lot of resistance with less reed in your mouth. To be quite honest, I think that that is completely a reed thing. I find I actually get a lot more resistance when I am playing way on the tip...as I was saying before it really, really makes you blow and support hard enough when you're doing this to get a sufficiently large sound.
Elaine Douvas does play with more reed in her mouth, however she does compromise a lot to do this. She was one of the teachers at Domaine Forget (a camp here in Canada) last spring, and we had lots of masterclasses with her and I had a private lesson as well. What she does is that she makes reeds that are quite hard, and as we all know hard reeds tend to produce a darker sound, so she can afford to play with more reed in her mouth without getting really edgy. Also, she makes reeds that are quite sharp (they crow a C#, much higher than the conventional C crow) and buys really flat (on a normal C crow reed) oboes so that the end result is a dark, resonant tone. However, (and she said this herself!!) she has a very limited range of tone colour and a more limited range of dynamics than playing way on the tip. I agree, she has a gorgeous tone, not bright or edgy, but not only does it lack a large range of dynamics and colour but playing with that style makes articulation much more difficult.
I have to say that I completely disagree wtih you on Richard Woodhams, but this is the wonderful thing about music, that we all will have completely differing opinions! I heard him live last year playing the Strauss concerto, and I could always hear him clearly over the orchestra. Also, if you listen to his recordings, I find that he has one of the most resonant, dark tones out there (again, opinion...).
I really think a lot of this whole balancing thing has to do with how you make your reeds...my teacher plays incredibly far out (I don't quite know how he does it...) and if you've ever heard him play, you know that he can project over the rest of the orchestra no matter what's going on. I've heard him easily project over the entire brass section with no edge or buzz to the sound. However, playing on the tip allows him to play as soft as the clarinets with their subtones. If you hear John Ferrillo (principal in Boston), he's the same way...his sound just sails over the orchestra with no effort at all (and that's in a 80-piece orchestra!), and he's in the same school of playing (way on the tip...he took from De Lancie).
Who's right? I have no idea...I have heard some people that take more reed in their mouth that get drowned by the orchestra...I think it's all about a balancing act. You have to make your reeds suited to what style you're going to play in, and you have to pick an oboe that will complement this style of playing.
I certainly do agree with what you said about the teacher though...trust your teacher, especially if you like what she sounds like. Immerse yourself in her style to get the most out of what she can give.
Good luck!
Graham
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2006-04-16 20:32
... ok so i've finished my morning practice, really concentrating on trying to play just the tip, and it's really much easier to blow, and wow, yes, it pitches C very nicely, even the G & G# are a lot less sharp, and the overall tone is much sweeter (still have trouble on high A to C though)
... but when i blow fortissimo, it closes up
... and, it's hard to stay at the tip, because it feels like there's nothing there and i keep taking in more reed until i feel something there
... so, does this mean the tip's too 'soft' for me and need tip to be a shaving or so thicker?
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Author: GMac
Date: 2006-04-16 21:30
Hey vboboe,
Actually, to play way on the tip the very tip of the reed needs to be super-thin. I would say the problem is that the reed is missing enough internal strength to keep it from collapsing. This could be from the cane/reed simply being old, a gouge thing, or lack of rails or a spine. Who knows! Also, remember that when playing on the tip you can afford to be really relaxed and just blow a lot. Maybe it's lip pressure that's causing the reed to close down? Maybe you're used to using lip pressure and that's what's causing it. Who knows! :P
That weird feeling of feeling like there's nothing in your mouth is normal, try to get used to it. If it's still feeling really weird after a long time, try taking a *tiny* bit more reed in. Unfortunately, there is no real substitute for a godo teacher to help you with this.
Good luck! Let me/us know how it goes.
Graham
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2006-04-16 22:24
<<...to play way on the tip the very tip of the reed needs to be super-thin. I would say the problem is that the reed is missing enough internal strength to keep it from collapsing. This could be from the cane/reed simply being old, a gouge thing, or lack of rails or a spine>>
... reed's just on the other side of half-life (about 7 playing hours) medium hard reed seems OK, spine & rails hold up OK, not too resistant, not too easy
<<Maybe you're used to using lip pressure and that's what's causing it>>
... yes, think it's more likely too much pressure applied, gotta lighten up
<<That weird feeling of feeling like there's nothing in your mouth is normal, try to get used to it>>
... OK, thanks :-)
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Author: oboeblank
Date: 2006-04-17 02:53
I have to correct you on one thing-Ferrillo.
After studying with De Lancie he studied with Mack and plays with a lot of reed in his mouth, on a Gilbert 1 that is as hard as a board.
He is the teacher who made me a convert to sounding lovely and free with more reed in your mouth.
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Author: GMac
Date: 2006-04-17 03:25
Thanks for clearing that up, oboeblank! My apologies. I didn't know that he had gone on to study with Mack afterward.
How did you enjoy your lessons with John Ferillo? I have heard very mixed opinions about his teaching, and as I am applying to grad schools next year I am very curious (I plan on taking a lesson with him, but I would like to hear his students' opinions as well).
Are you in college/university, have you graduated, or what are you doing with oboe in general? You sound like you're quite serious, especially if you've had lessons with John Ferillo...
Graham
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2006-04-17 06:46
Mr. John Ferillo is a great player, (and the Boston Symphony is my favourite orchestra among the Big 5), i heard him play Gaubert's Tarantella with Fenwick Smith on a Naxos Gaubert Complete works cd and it was superb. Lightness in articulation and beauuuuutiful tone. Gosh i wish to study with him some day, and i am surprised that he plays with more reed.
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Author: GMac
Date: 2006-04-17 13:04
I agree! His tone is really dark, rich, full, etc...and I totally agree with the lightness of articulation and stuff. I don't think anyone would question the fact that he's a really great player.
I'm curious to see what you think...do you find that his tone is a bit too much of the same colour all of the time? Don't get me wrong, he really is an exceptional player, that was just the one thing I noticed. It seemed like yes, it was a beautiful, dark, resonant sound all the time but it really was that way all of the time. It didn't sound like he had the flexibility to really change around the way he sounded that much.
This is certainly the fun thing about oboe, that there are so many ways to get to the same sound/style of playing! I wonder if it will eventually all turn into one style/way of playing (at least in North America).
Graham
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2006-04-17 17:12
Come to think of it, you are so right! The same case goes with the great Hansjorg Schellenberger (Not so great when you think of it..), which has a tremendously rich and resonant tone but that's just about it! Every piece of music he performs, there is a hint of difficulty in establishing contrast in color and dynamics, undeniable technique but what a boring Mozart Oboe Concerto! (Neil Black and Han de Vries did the most beautiful versions, IMHO) I can't say that might be all true with Mr. Ferrilo though, because i have yet to enjoy more of his recordings.
Han de Vries (Schumann Romances, Baroque oboe recordings), Heinz Holliger (20th century pieces), Douglas Boyd (Bach oboe concertos and Strauss), Alex Klein (unaccompanied partitas etc.) would be imho the prime players to listen to when it comes to color variety and absolute dynamic contrast.
If everyone in North America sounded like John Mack, why should we get GMac's recording (lolS!) when we can get a copy of John Mack's cd anytime anywhere. If we ommit the variety in interpretation and style, the next thing that comes to mind which would be different amongst players would be tone, and i think it is our duty to persuade students to get creative and search for their own unique sound. Of course like i addressed before uniformity in sound throughout the registers is a basic aspect in the development of a STUDENT in oboe playing, but when it comes to making music, that shouldnt be a boundary anymore.
Howard
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2006-04-17 19:30
HautboisJJ wrote:
< uniformity in sound throughout the registers is a basic aspect in the development of a STUDENT in oboe playing, but when it comes to making music, that shouldnt be a boundary anymore.>
I guess I would have to disagree with you there, Howard. I think a good "line" is terribly important to being a good wind player, or singer, or whatever. You DON'T want to listen to someone who has big honking low notes and tinny, screechy high notes, do you? I would think that whatever one's personal approach, consistency throughout the range *must* be of paramount importance.
There has been a very valid point made several times in this thread, though, and that is, there are many paths to excellence in the pursuit of the oboe. The absolute truth of this has been a somewhat recent revelation to me. I had always *heard* that this was true. but doubted it, until I began to understand just how very differently any number of undeniably outstanding oboists go about achieving their artistry.
Actually, it makes me want to be "unique" -- to have a wonderful sound that is all (or mostly) my own.
Susan
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2006-04-17 19:51
Let's see if i'm completely clear about this (and perhaps by restating things, help clarify it even more for anybody who's still in doubt?) -- please comment as needed to clarify even further, eh?
hautboisjj writes:
<<Of course like i addressed before uniformity in sound throughout the registers is a basic aspect in the development of a STUDENT in oboe playing, but when it comes to making music, that shouldnt be a boundary anymore>>
methinketh -- uniformity of sound in all registers, including development of the orchestral standard of dark tone, is a primary tonal goal when training students who're still in the process of acquiring oboe-playing skills
... after arriving at an acceptable standard of general playing excellence, oboe students become oboists, who continue to hone their skills over the years in various professional playing positions
... presumably second and third oboe must consistently produce this standard for their entire existence in these positions, with a relative denial of their own distinctive playing style or tonality in order to blend especially with first (same as singing in choir, one doesn't use operatic voice, one uses choir voice)
... presumably first oboe must consistently produce this standard when playing tutti
... however, when playing solo passages, first oboe could or perhaps ought to be stretching the standard in order to be more musically expressive and individually distinctive is those solo passages
... if oboes are soli in unison, makes sense for all to follow the established standard, but if they're in harmony, it makes an opportunity for all to stretch the standard together
... when playing solo works, any oboe player should put expressive musicality as top priority, and consider maintaining the established standard tonality as a much lower priority
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2006-04-18 05:20
I totally agree with you Susan, but my point is rather more appropriately applied in solo playing than orchestral, and music is not dead, and i am not only pointing to the application of such technique in melodic phrases, but also interesting phrases that occur, for example in Stravinsky's Rite of Spring. (after listening to REALLY REALLY good players do this, you will understand that the change is not exactly negative, but enhances the situation, for example the use of harmonic fingerings for Britten's Six Metamorpheses.)
A good 'line' with one dynamic, a good line with many dynamics, and a good line with many colors, are totally different things. One can approach a phrase with no change of vibrato and play everything 'straight' but that would be absolutely boring, but not necessarily a bad line would be the result. It is so very personal, for example, Harold Wright (Late Boston Symphony clarinetist) did the Schubert Unfinished Solo with change of color through vibrato and dynamics, it literally made me drop down in tears. On the other hand, a recent hearing of the same solo from the Vienna Philharmonic (unknown soloist) was absolutely in contrast, nothing happened, it was just a stream of sound, nothing more than that!
<<You DON'T want to listen to someone who has big honking low notes and tinny, screechy high notes, do you?>>
Of course i don't, =) , but if that particular piece of music asks me to do so (Berio Sequenza 7), i would have to would i? Change of color in a solo like the Tchaikovsky Symphony no.4 slow movement would never be that drastic, but some people would approach it safe, playing it in a good line, but never a creative or singing line! Which is my point!
<<I would think that whatever one's personal approach, consistency throughout the range *must* be of paramount importance.>>
Agreed, but i guess it really depends on the music you are playing at that time. If the use of a harmonic fingering changes tone color but one has to abid to the rule of "must maintain consistency" thus reject to use it, it would be a truly sad thing.
I always tell people that Heinz Holliger has a tremendously bad tone at times (the low long tone on the Schumann Adagio and Allegro was so bad!), but he was the one who got brave enough to shine out from the rest of the oboists with new techniques that enhanced the ability, range and limit of the oboe. It brought us to a whole new dimension of things and some of his recordings are absolutely beautiful and creative. One must also remember how Alex Klein used some of the keys on the oboe to execute a repetition of notes instead of using tonguing, and the effect was gorgeous.
Another good player to listen to to understand this whole concept ( which is truly quite simple if you don't try to make it an over-exagerrated thing) is Diana Doherty of the Sydney Symphony Orchestra. Her recording of the oboe concerto on Koehne's Inflight Entertainment CD on Naxos was stunning, she didn't worry about the bright G#'s, they were absolutely beautiful and in tune and she knew when to cover them up at times necessary.
Howard
Post Edited (2006-04-18 09:55)
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2006-04-19 15:25
By the way, I noticed Alex Klein takes in a lot of reed from DVDs i have watched recently. Is this so or am i blinded by the camera?
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2006-04-19 17:36
I think it is difficult to tell how much reed an oboist is actually taking past their lips by just looking at the position of the lips on the reed. As my teacher says, when the embouchure is in action, you can't see what's going on inside a person's mouth, which is what makes it so difficult to demonstrate just how to do it, in the first place.
And then, there are lips, and there are LIPS -- full lips are going to appear to function differently on the reed than thin ones. And I think a lot of players may actually *start* on the tip, or around the tip, but then roll in for intonation or covering purposes. Very few oboe pieces lie exclusively in the lower range of the instrument, so I would guess that most oboists we observe will have rolled in to some degree. But that doesn't mean they aren't orienting their embouchure to the tip.
Right now, I'm thinking that the "playing on the tip" mostly means to use control of the tip as a starting point, or a jumping off place, for tone production. The embouchure has to be flexible, and not "stuck" in one place.
Susan
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Author: d-oboe
Date: 2006-04-19 22:16
It is really interesting to read all the variety of postings!
However I would like to discuss a few of the things that came up...
Somehow, we got on the topic of how playing at the tip gives uniformity of tone, and for some reason, various people considered this to be "lower level" or a good starting idea, but reserved to student playing only.
In actual fact, however, tip-playing gives MORE options for tone "colors" because the setup is very flexible, and can accomodate almost anything. (Again, this requires a reed that holds itself up properly...it can't be weak, nor can it be too hard)
The downside (but not really) to tip playing is that it requires much more air than other playing styles to achieve the greatest differences in volume. The longscrape reeds most often used for the tip-playing style DO have a tendency, if not made well, to close up and collapse. (Mainly because of cane removed from the back) In other words, the louder dynamics are cut.
Back to "student playing"...I think that homogeneity of tone, or perhaps better called "centering" of tone, is something that has to present at all times at the professional level, in any style of music - baroque to contemporary. The tone colors have to be organized, and must relate to what the music is trying to convey. If, within a phrase, the tone colors are constantly changing, how will the audience know what the player is trying to do? The greatest artists know exactly when to alter the color of a *specific* note, or group of notes, to help explain the music best. Even in oboe jazz (it exists!) there is organization. Not as much, maybe, as a Bach cantata, but there is a reason for doing every little thing...not only because we are "inspired in the moment" to play something a certain way.
D
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2006-04-20 15:24
My exact point!
<<The tone colors have to be organized, and must relate to what the music is trying to convey. If, within a phrase, the tone colors are constantly changing, how will the audience know what the player is trying to do? The greatest artists know exactly when to alter the color of a *specific* note, or group of notes, to help explain the music best. Even in oboe jazz (it exists!) there is organization. Not as much, maybe, as a Bach cantata, but there is a reason for doing every little thing...not only because we are "inspired in the moment" to play something a certain way.>>
I should correct how i put it in a verbal phrase, it is not an idea reserved for the 'lower level' or student playing only. How i think of it is that advanced players should seek out to get more color varieties in their tone, i remember someone who quoted on the board about how Marcel Tabuteau played 'in tone' with Julius Baker (floboe), how would that be possible without tonal variety? And how would someone be able to manage the pan like phrases of Daphnis et Chloe if they can only sound 'oboe like'? Uniformity in tone is of the utmost importance, but it is the basic essence of oboe playing, but an artist should not stay at that point, but advance to another stage where he is able to produce more colors and i am pointing on any particular musical phrase which demands homogeinity of sound throughout (which in fact can be quite colorful with its crescendos and decrendos when done well.) Paul Goodwin played so beautifully the Vivaldi sonatas on Baroque oboe, and i doubt anyone would say that he had one color in mind for all his phrases. My best efforts to produce an understandable english statement is difficult. Haha...but it is well worth it i have learnt much from Ohsuzan and d-oboe. And yes...i do play on the tip for my style of reed.
Howard
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Author: angela@reedery
Date: 2006-05-01 18:32
Perhaps your reedmakers play on the tips. I know I do! This gives me some serious thinking and experimenting to do, though.
~Angela
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2006-05-06 18:46
... well (almost a month later) ... as with all things oboe ... 'tis not so simple a thing, to play just the tip, initial happy discoveries evolved into multiple chameleon variations !
... ah, there's theory, and then there's the physical wakeup call of reality!
... even if the tip is responsive before even starting the heart, doesn't mean :-) my reeds :-) are at their responsive best when finished -- they don't always turn out to play best just at the tip when finished
... some of :-) my reeds :-) won't speak to me until i'm really munching their hearts, and some won't sing unless i'm halfway to the binding (playing the windows), and i'm talking about optimum position for mid register only, not the normal roll-out for lowest register and roll-over for upper register
... rails & spine matter a lot more for :-) my reeds :-) now, didn't a few months ago, really need their support, reeds close up rapidly on me otherwise
... thought i'd just arrived at nice relaxed embouchure on modified medium-hards after long period of sharp over-bite, but here i am going through same thing again, only on harder reeds (well, that's progress)
... teacher wants me to work with more heart thickness (just bark & about half the white sub-layer off), but i'm finding that too stiff and resistant just now, 'resistance' there is good i'm told (relatively speaking after heart is blended well), but i'm having trouble finding the goodness, i'm puffed out just pushing past the resistance and the hot weather's arriving (my hardest season for puffing)
... reed-making consistent playable reeds is one challenge all by itself, the other challenge is making them to produce their best focused sound nearer the tip, am researching solutions to get that result, and yes, thank you, any comments from experienced reed-makers?
... think i've just gotta ditch this large Pisoni reed-knife and get a better, (slightly smaller one) with easier precision placement handling for my hand, your votes please -- Vitry, Landwell or other?
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Author: GMac
Date: 2006-05-06 21:57
Definitely not Vitry! In that case you get what you pay for :P. Personally, I haven't had luck with Landwells lately. My first one was great, but none of the ones after have been any good. The Mark Chudnow knives are really good. Don't get the Philadelphia Herder-Style knives, they're not worth your time or $$ (trust me on this one...they are way, way too thin. I don't know what they were thinking). Apparently the Jende knives are great, but quite expensive.
Graham
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2006-05-06 22:35
>... thought i'd just arrived at nice relaxed embouchure on modified medium-hards after long period of sharp over-bite, but here i am going through same thing again, only on harder reeds (well, that's progress)
>
Ah! That lament sounds way, way too familiar.
Every time I think "I've got it!!", something else comes along to throw that conclusion into serious question.
Today, I really do think "I've got it" -- and it is easier than I had been making it.
Today my technique success has to do with the "sucking on a drinking straw" theory. I have heard that, and heard that, and heard that, and sorta kinda thought I was doing it. But the problem is, unless you have a very responsive reed, it doesn't work so well.
Today, with responsive reeds and a newfound appreciation of letting the air do the work, I got into the "drinking straw" analogy, and for once, just did it. And it works fabulously. No more torturing my mouth into unnatural and rigid positions. Just put the sucker in there like a drinking straw, and blow easily toward the bridge of the nose. Voila! Oboe sounds! It looks damn good in the mirror, too. And sounds good on tape.
So I spent most of today going through my reed box(es) again, finding the ones that work best with this latest iteration of oboe embouchure. And I have come to really adore the reeds my teacher and her husband make (my first experience of which being what started this thread in the first place).
I seem to recall that somebody famous is quoted as having said, apropos of oboe playing, that you "just put the reed in your mouth and blow." Anybody know who that was?
Today, I'll second that motion.
Susan
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2006-05-07 05:03
I am sure that quote was from an American school player?
But then, Maurice Bourge seemed to have mentioned a similar statement.
'Take the reed in as you would take up a fork - simply'. I think he must be one of the best teachers outside of America, judging by his sheer number of successful students (i can't think of any successful european solo oboists who are not at one time his student.).
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Author: GMac
Date: 2006-05-08 12:49
I played for Maurice Bourge in a masterclass last year, and I didn't think he was a good teacher at all! Great musician, but I thought a poor teacher. But I guess that was just a personality thing (and the fact that I'm not in the French school of playing :P).
Graham
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Author: GMac
Date: 2006-05-08 23:17
Haha! As in elaborate on how he ripped me to shreds?
Graham
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Author: wkleung
Date: 2006-05-09 03:09
I too was in Maurice Bourgue's masterclass and thought he was a great teacher, if tough. I would rate how good a teacher is by how much I could get out of him/her. Maurice Bourgue obviously has lots to offer, although his students better be on their toes if they want to survive the masterclass.
Wai Kit Leung
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Author: GMac
Date: 2006-05-09 03:51
Hey Wai Kit,
You saw me at that Masterclass! That was at Domaine Forget this past year. Remember me? I did the Strauss concerto the first masterclass and the last movement of the Mozart in the last masterclass...both times being ripped apart. Some people did get a lot out of him, and I certainly respect him as a player. However, we certainly were not compatible!
Graham
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2006-05-09 04:26
Only serves to prove that oboe playing can be such a creative thing, and really not one text book would serve as a perfect guidance. Admire how Alan Vogel survived 3 schools of playing, even better admire how his teachers tolerate him. =p What was Mr. Bourgue's focus? And how on earth did he 'tore' you apart? Haha. He gave a concert in Malaysia some time ago and even conducted the Malaysian Philharmonic and those were fabulous experiences.
Howard
Post Edited (2006-05-09 04:32)
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Author: wkleung
Date: 2006-05-09 12:06
Maurice Bourgue is a very rigorous teacher. He wouldn't let mistakes go unnoticed, and students could find him very tough (or too tough) in a masterclass setting. I do believe in the long run that's better than having some happy-go-easy teachers though.
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Author: GMac
Date: 2006-05-09 22:38
I definitely agree with you on that one! What I found my issue was with him was that he wouldn't accept any style or interpretation other than his own, and would treat your own personal/stylistic interpretations as mistakes and grill you for them. Obviously you are in a masterclass/lesson to try out the teacher's ideas, and I fully believe that you should try everything they suggest, but I just found that he didn't leave any room for students' personal interpretation (I don't know if you remember, but that was a huge issue when I was doing the Strauss).
Whatever works for you I guess!
Graham
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Author: wkleung
Date: 2006-05-10 02:49
Hi Graham,
Yes I remember the class very well. I guess he just didn't like rubato/abrupt tempo changes in the Strauss's opening statement. I too feel awkward when I listen to Richard Woodhams's recording (with all those rubato), so I guess I had the same interpretation in mind (not the same execution apparently) and agreed with him.
By the way, Graham, next time you should play the Dutilleux for him -- he recorded that piece with his wife and Dutilleux wrote another piece for him specifically.
Wai Kit Leung
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Author: GMac
Date: 2006-05-10 03:05
That's probably a good idea...I think I would have gotten a lot more out of his teaching if I had chosen different repertoire (I worship the Richard Woodhams and Alex Klein versions of the Strauss, and both of them have lots of rubato, hence why I didn't like Maurice Bourge's interpretation), I should have thought to prepare some french pieces to play for him! Oh well...who knows if I'll ever see him again. I'm not going back to Domaine this year because it conflicts with a spring course I'm taking. Are you going back?
Graham
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Author: jendereedknife
Date: 2006-05-21 09:01
Dear Graham,
I may be a little off topic here, but the Jende Reed Knife has come up in your forum discussion, and I would like you to know that I am happy to answer any questions about Jende Reed Knives, sharpening, or our products and services that may come up in future conversations.
[ You may answer direct questions; however, advertising here is forbidden. Please read & follow the rules. Mark Charette ]
Sincerely,
Tom Blodgett
President,
Jende Industries, LLC
www.jendeindustries.com
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Author: GMac
Date: 2006-05-21 18:07
Very interesting! Do you know how well the knives react to crockstick sharpening? I have never had luck with using stones to sharpen my knives (not beyond the grinding stage, anyway) so I use my crocksticks all the time now once I have made the blade thin enough by stones. I know, for example, that the Landwell knives tend not to work well with crocksticks.
I fully realize that quality doesn't come cheap, I just worry sometimes because I decided to spend a lot of money to get a Landwell, and it is honestly one of my worst knives. It simply will not get sharp, even after I took it to Toronto and had the blade re-done completely. I am not saying that in any way about your knives, I have no experience with them! I am just being careful before taking a plunge like that again.
Graham
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Author: oboeblank
Date: 2006-05-21 18:31
I bought a Jende 15K-the Ferrari model and it is the best knife I have ever used. I am sorry that I only bought one.
What I liked about the Jende knife was that the blade is perfectly straight. When I order a "new" knife, I regrind the blade so that it is straight. You can check the status of your knives by putting the blade down on a sharpening stone and holding it up to the light. If there is a ragged line of light showing between the knife and the stone it needs to be reground. Some "new" knives I have are like rocking chairs, the blade is so uneven it's a joke.
A note about sharpening: one method is not the only way. Get yourself a diamond stone, they restore the edge quickly and without the use of oils and mind-numbing grunt work. Crocksticks, which I use all of the time work to maintain the edge but not to restore it. Japanese water stones and ceramic stones are also great sharpening tools.
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The Clarinet Pages
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