 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: Candy
Date: 2005-10-15 12:44
I've been trying to do double tongue on my oboe for a long time but have never been successful other than choking myself with my tongue. -_-" Can oboe players double tongue? If yes, how?
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Author: Dutchy
Date: 2005-10-15 13:05
"tikka, tikka" doesn't work for you?
Or are you trying to do "teetee teetee"? You can't do "teetee teetee", as you've already discovered. You need to alternate the front and back of your tongue, thus: "tikka tikka".
Or triple tongue: "tikketa, tikketa".
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Author: sömeone
Date: 2005-10-15 13:26
YES.
But it is....very, very difficult.
I have a very good article on double tonguing by the American oboist Don Jaeger (must say that not many educators of oboe in the rest of the world aside from Americans are as open to share their knowledge on oboe technique, oboe teaching resources in the US seems to double everywhere elses.) If i can i will post a short excerpt of the La Scala di Seta solo by the anoymous player of the Berlin Phil on http://www.oboistgallery.8m.net/ as soon as possible, just to show you the possibility of it. Well anyways there is another excerpt in the site from a Scotland player who plays the Marcello Concerto with a double tongue twist which is rather mind boggling.
I'll quote this from Don Jaeger's masterclass book published by Hal Leonard. If you can get this book, very useful insight into oboe technique.
Anyways:
There ultimate and effective learning of the teqachnique of double tonguing depends on two things; (1) slow and careful practice over many months,
and (2) the use of a reed which is NOT too hard and which supports pitch on the air stream (MY comments here, again this is going to be a personal thing, but i suggest using a softer reed for the first 2-3 weeks.). It will not develop by having to use a tight (pinched) embouchure. Assuming that your reed is functioning properly, the way to approach the process is as follows:
Begin by thinking about the way you normally toungue a note. In essence we make the same motion with the toungue as when we say the syllable TUH. Say to yourself as rapidly as possible - tuh, tuh, tuh, etc. The consonant T is formed at the tip of the toungue. When we say the syllable KUH, the consonant is formed in the back of the throat. Say to yourself as rapidly as possible - kuh, kuh, kuh, kuh, etc.
You will note that you can only say these syllables so fast before you begin to become "bogged down". If you are playing a long passage, you can only go so far before control is lost.
Now try alternating the TUH and the KUH as rapidly as possible. In most cases we find that not only is the action faster, but that it can go on for a much greater length of time before losing control. This then is the benefit of double tonguing, and can, as indicated earlier, be learned and controlled after some experience.
Back to me:
The exercises that follow in the method are illustrated through sheet music, so i'll try to transcript them through words to make it understandable through words.
As a beginning preparation. Play the scale only with normal TUH tonguing. From this point on we will only use T for TUH and K for KUH.
(Play a descending Eb major scale starting from Eb in the space in this form:
4 quaver notes in the span of 2 crotchets, all toungued and slow, and then D, 4 quaver notes, C etc. in succession, until the low Eb.)
Since the K is weaker and must be strengthened, repeat the study using only the K. Try to make it as short and strong as possible. At first the study must be done VERY SLOWLY.
(Repeat the pattern of the scale like stated above, only this time using KUH.)
Now alternate beginning with T on one note and K on the next.
(TUH for the first quaver and KUH for the 2nd and TUH for the 3rd and KUH for the 4th etc.)
You will probably also notice that as you go lower in the scale, it becomes more difficult. Do not worry about that too much at this point. As the ability to make the K shorter and stronger develops, so will the ability to double toungue in the low register.
Remember much is dependent on the balance of your reed. If your reed is too open and you are having to use too much embouchure pressure to control the reed, double tonguing will be almost impossible, especially in the low register.
(Back to me.)
That itself will take weeks, maybe months, and will differs between different passages of music. So when the basic is achieved in a rather faster tempo, try adding other forms of articulation in between different patterns of scales and start practising slowly, again. I am still patiently practising and my teacher is patienly tutoring me on this.....from a few thousang kilometers away through the phone. Haha....Good luck!
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Author: kroboe
Date: 2005-10-15 21:34
If you have a slow tounge double tounging may become a necessity for doing fast staccato runs or fast repeats like in the Saint Saens third symfony.
*Someone* has some good points on how to teach yourself double tounge, but I think he is greatly overestimating the difficulty of learning it. It's just tu-ku-tu-ku-tu, and once you get the hang of it it's a piece of cake really. Just remember to keep your cheeks firm and the back of your tounge close to the "roof" and the "ku" slightly up front to reduce the air volume in your mouth. And keep your air pressure up. You will see that the faster you double tounge the easier it gets. Apart from that you just got to experiment and find your way. Its like turning around in bed, you can't explain the use of every muscle, you just do it. Learning double tounge is really worth the effort, because once you can do it no one can touch you for speed and staccato, and you'll feel like a king and need not be afraid of anything any more.
kroboe
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Author: GMac
Date: 2005-10-16 16:28
Just a different thought...I find (for me!) that doing 'tah kah tah' or something like that 'chokes' up the tounge when I go at fast speeds, which defies the whole point of doing that way for me. My teacher advocates doing 'dah gah dah' because this requires much less muscular effort, and will allow you to bring the double-tounge up to high speeds.
I would practice it really slowly, and just do it as legato as you possibly can, with absolutely no break in between the notes until you can do it continuously slowly. As 'someone' said, practicing on the second syllable only is a really good exercise too. I agree with everything someone said except for the syllables used.
Graham
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Author: sömeone
Date: 2005-10-16 16:46
Are you underestimating the ability to double tongue? There is still the problem of applying doube tongue for different articulations, different dynamics etc... Haha......i never take a new challenge as difficult, just unfamiliar with it.....but, by far i think this has been one of my most difficult challenges ever.....beats me......but it's just me that i am learning this slower than most people....=p...
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Author: sömeone
Date: 2005-10-16 16:47
Yes, and that's the reason why we all gather here, exchange of ideas! I'll try that and see if it will work better.
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Author: oboeblank
Date: 2005-10-16 17:15
I think the the "da ga" approach to double tonguing is easier because the "ga" stroke is less explosive. The "ka" seems to have more of the glotis involved and the "ga" has less.
Richard Killmer at Eastman double tongues almost everything, while Ted Baskin in Montreal can single tongue like a demon.
Different strokes for different folks.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2005-10-16 20:56
Yes, oboe players can double tongue as do clarinet, saxophone, and bassoon players. I think that some people may do it without being aware of their doing it. Many of us can't tongue very fast using single tonguing and double tonguing is a great help.
As in single tonguing, the space between the notes is important in double tonguing. Thus, one can think in terms of three kinds of sylables. Duh-guh, tee-kee, and tick-kit. Duh-guh gives little space between the notes while tick-kit gives a lot of space between the notes. For the faster tempos, it is a good idea to make the double tongued notes very short, thus the use of the choppy, less musical tick-kit sylables. Any port in a storm! Good luck!
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Author: d-oboe
Date: 2005-10-16 23:21
My two cents?
Doing these tongue tricks, is somewhat like doing circular breathing. Generally they are secondary skills, and a player could very well become a professional without ever learning how.
For example the double tongue, is an option for people who can't single tongue very quickly. But that's not to say one is better over the other. I know people who can single tongue at sixteenths to 160, and other people who can double tongue only up to 150. Go figure!
The circular breath is similar. Some people unfortunately use it instead of planning the phrases properly. Even in seemingly endless fluid music, there are tons of places to breathe. Even in Tchaikovsky 4th, I don't use a circular breath, because for me it's not reliable. But that's just me!
D
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2005-10-17 00:00
... so, even with all this great advice, still a bit confooosed, not one of my physical playing skills yet, haven't got the knack, don't get the discussion concepts either
... for normal tonguing, the tip has to go forward at least to the relative position of the teeth where the reed is sitting on rolled-over lower lip, yes?
... but, for d-t, the tongue has to be pulled a tad further back in the mouth behind the teeth?
... so then, are we rapidly flapping (hurring) only the tip of the tongue in the largest available space in our mouth (extra jaw drop recommended?)
... or are we using the whole length of the tongue to get results while articulating appropriate combinations of these various recommended syllables?
... or either, or both, depending on whether fast marcato or fast staccato is needed?
And, if the tongue is mostly just behind the teeth while it's flapping in the largest available space, are we actually touching the reed during d-t (major tip fray?) or are we actually blowing tongue-chopped air into the reed?
For example, can hurr the tongue rapidly in mid-mouth, lips slightly parted around the reed, but can't do that when reed's held in place, especially if also pressing more firmly to lip up the higher notes, something about closed lips inhibits this tongue movement (none of that churned air can get out perhaps?), and find ticka-tacka just as challenging for same reason, digga-dugga is easiest to produce but least effective sound-wise
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Author: sömeone
Date: 2005-10-17 11:26
I think the main reason most people won't recommend du gu in most cases is because you have to overcome the difficulty factor of controlling the tongue first, cleaness of articulation being the priority, and maybe du gu comes later as an alternative for a different sound when the need arises, just as simple as that.
I think i would really like to learn circular breathing someday, i still struggle with the 2nd movement solo in Tchai 4th, unless i am willing to sound awful. =p
Anyways, are there any methods out there which focuses on tonguing ability written especially for oboe? I find this quite intriguing, because tongue articulation still seems to be a mystery to me.....
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Author: Candy
Date: 2005-10-18 12:22
WoW! So many method to play double tonguing... hmmm... so if i were to master the duh guh duh guh instead of the ticka ticka first, would it be more difficult if i am to switch to ticka ticka later on?
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Author: sömeone
Date: 2005-10-18 14:54
I don't think so, that is why i recommend practising on tuh kuh first, because the stronger consonants will enable you to control better and play a legato kind of articulation with double tongue later. Not that you can't learn it the opposite way, just that learning the stronger articulation first is more efficient to me.
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Author: kroboe
Date: 2005-10-19 06:56
Underestimating? Well, it just seems easy to me. In my youth I played the trumpet for a short period, and then the flute for some years. Double tounging comes natural and easy on both. When I switched to oboe double tounging sort of came along. I had to adapt to the double reed of course, but the only problem I can recall is that my cheeks would pop out on the kuh or guh or whatever. But once I learned to control that I was ok. I have used double tounge ever since , and as my tounge is rather slow I find it an extremely usefull skill.
kroboe
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Author: Candy
Date: 2005-10-19 14:43
Hmmm... i tried wat was taught from everyone in here during my band rehearsal today... but i stil seem to be choking on it... as in, when u kuh it, u kinda suck in air and some how choke? And i seem to be going very slowly instead of the erm... ideal speed? for double tonguing
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Author: sömeone
Date: 2005-10-20 05:36
It takes longer than u might expect Candy, ut choking aint a normal condition......haha.....i cant detect the problem here. Anyone mind pointing out the problem? I think you might want to 'tongue the air', meaning you don't want the air to stop. Keep it flowing even when you tongue. It's actually difficult to concentrate on another point in your playing when you are focussing on another. (In your case, you might be doing great articulation, but you forgot the importance of air here.) So keep trying and don't give up! Do it slowly and think when you play, it helps.
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Author: kroboe
Date: 2005-10-20 09:07
I will try to describe my way of double tounging to perhaps give you a clue as to how to think. First, the problem is not the tuh which is a normal tounged onset . The problem is when you shut your mouth cavity off from the lounge pressure to say guh with the back of your tounge. The pressure of the trapped air volume up front still escaping through the reed will sink, causing the tone to loose pitch. The oncoming guh gives an explosive new supply of pressure to the mouth cavity tending to blow out the cheeks and increase the trapped air volume which will still be there for the next guh, which in turn makes it even harder to control the pressure and pitch. The problem therefore, is to keep a steady pressure of air behind the reed as you go tuh-guh-tuh-guh.
To do this you have to keep the trapped air volume as small as possible and keep a certain speed. This is what you do: Keep your cheeks firm and your yaw firmly in normal playing position. Yaw by no means too low. Support the sides of your tounge firmly against your upper teeth allowing only a small space between your tounge and your palate. Then think of your tounge as a teaspoon oscillating up and down alternately front and rear, pivoting around its side support. Try to think of all this going on up front in your mouth to decrease cavity and increase control. Now, put a reed in your mouth and apply air pressure and see if you can make it work. I find it hard to do this slowly, 6-8 notes/second makes a good rythm. When you get on you can vary your modulation by saying tokotokotoko for crisp staccato or a more sluggish dugudugudugu for detache' passages.
Hope this helps. Good luck.
kroboe
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2005-10-20 16:51
... two questions answered, thanks, air-tonguing the reed and not too much jaw drop, that is, not too much mouth cavity
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