 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: Dutchy
Date: 2005-09-22 23:56
After 6 months of playing on medium-soft and medium Fox and Giardinelli factory-made reeds from the Giardinelli catalog, I decided to splurge on one medium student and one medium-soft student reed from Charles Reed. And now that I've got them here, the upper octaves won't sound at all, higher than a high G.
Obviously it can't be the reeds, they are $12 professionally hand-made reeds, right?
Right?
So what am I doing wrong? Do I need to soak them longer than 3 minutes? Do I need to break them in or something? Or is it just that my embouchure is used to playing on lousy reeds, and I'm going to have to go back to square one?
Please tell me I don't have to go back to playing "Go Tell Aunt Rhodie".
Plus the medium-soft reed is noticeably flat. Is that me, or the reed?
Sign me,
VERY DISCOURAGED
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Author: Dutchy
Date: 2005-09-23 00:45
Plus, I am sitting here playing Rubank Scales and I am getting random squeaks and squawks from the lower register. This NEVER happened to me before with the Fox and Giardinelli reeds. Did I just get some bad reeds?
Also the Medium reed is flat, too. If I bite on it, I can get it up to pitch.
These reeds make more of a nasal "oboe-y" sound, whereas the Fox reeds make more of a high-register clarinet sound in the upper register. But if that's the price you have to pay, then I guess I'll stick with Fox...
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2005-09-23 01:56
Wow -- that's awful. I wish I could see the reeds and hear them.
Are they harder to blow that the others you have had?
What do the tips look like? What do the backs look like?
Sometimes a reed will come with the tip very open. (It needs to be more closed to play well.) If that is the case, wet the reed, and give it a little pinch just above the threads (fingers on the broad side of the reed). This action will close the tip and raise the pitch a little.
There are also some simple adjustments you can make with a single-edged razor blade. Do you have a plaque?
Did you get these directly from Charles Double Reed, or from Ebay? Either way, if you can't get them to work, I think it would be worthwhile to let them know you are having issues with the reeds.
Susan
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Author: Dutchy
Date: 2005-09-23 02:35
I ordered them directly from the Charles Double Reed Company, online. They are a little bigger than the Fox reed that I've been using all summer, and they're scraped flatter and broader somehow. They have a distinct flat stair-step gradation down to the tip from the "top of the back", sort of a stair-step down to where the "heart" and "windows" should be. They do not have as distinct a spine as the many online diagrams of "how to make reeds" led me to believe a really top-caliber hand-made reed would have.
As far as being harder to blow, the medium is harder to blow than the Fox medium, but maybe that's because I've been playing on the Fox medium all summer, and it's better broken in? See, I have no background on this, so I dunno how I tell if I just got a couple of bad reeds.
The openings of the tips do look quite a bit more open than I'm used to, which makes them harder to play up to pitch, but again, maybe that's because they're new? I was afraid to pinch them because they're supposed to be "perfect" as is, aren't they? I was afraid to mess with them for fear of screwing them up.
No, I don't have a plaque, and I tried using a single-edge razor blade to clip the end of one of the early Fox reeds I got, in hopes of fixing its flatness, before I realized that you're supposed to use your embouchure to compensate for pitch (to a certain degree). I expected it to be like with a saxophone or something, where you just put it in your mouth and blow. So it didn't help the reed, and eventually I learned to do the non-biting embouchure on the Fox medium reeds and get it up to pitch.
If it's just that I need to sit here and honk and squeak for a while until they're broken in, I can deal with that, but I need to know if that's the normal procedure when starting with new reeds.
Because otherwise I am tossing these suckers back to Charles Double Reed. $24 is three hours of work at Walgreens for me.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2005-09-23 05:14
Try this, Finger high A with your left hand. Are you getting the low octave?... With your right hand first finger and thumb apply pressure to the reed while you are blowing. ....closing the opening....Does the upper octave come out ? If not check your octave key doesn't have water in it. Blow air through the instrument and use cigarette paper. John
Freelance woodwind performer
Post Edited (2005-09-23 18:39)
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Author: sömeone
Date: 2005-09-23 09:03
sad to hear this....factory made reeds.....arghS!!! what ohsuzan said might be most logical explanation... but because we can't look at your reeds and your playing, its hard to say, but i bet you still have an embouchure problem to settle, when practising next time, try reminding yourself of the points that we have told you, and that means over and over again, until you feel a steady improvement in your playing, it takes time, be patient, and sooner or later you will succeed, all the best! And don't let a bad reed discourage you!
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Author: Dutchy
Date: 2005-09-23 12:27
But...these AREN'T factory-made reeds. Unless I'm misunderstanding the difference between "hand made" and "factory made".
These are authentic Charles Double Reed oboe reeds.
I quote from the very web page I ordered them from:
http://www.charlesmusic.com/cgi-bin/theo?action=product&product_number=2-1-200
<< Charles Student Oboe Reed
Item # ROB302
Our high quality, hand finished student reeds are recommended for less experienced and returning players.
Each reed is hand finished by Brian Charles and is made of Charles Student cane and staples. These reeds feature the classic American style scrape with a modified "V" shape tip and integrated heart and windows.
Need good, stable, guaranteed-to-work reeds? Try these and end your search. >>
Okay? So, is it me? I mean, it must be, right? Because I presume it sure can't be world-renowned reedmaker Brian Charles, who purportedly "hand finished" these two reeds.
Question: is it normal for a new reed to be "difficult" until you've been playing it for a while? Am I supposed to have to pinch it and fiddle with it to get it to work right, at first? Is that the expectation? If so, just tell me, and I'll deal with it.
I'm the first one to admit that I have embouchure issues that I need to settle, as I've only been doing this a few months, but still, the Fox reeds I've had played decently right out of the box, at least, the ones that weren't outright duds. And they didn't give me these random squeaks in the low register.
Post Edited (2005-09-23 12:30)
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Author: sömeone
Date: 2005-09-23 13:32
It is definitely going to feel different, i wont say difficult to play at first, if thats the case there must be something wrong. A lot of oboists buy reeds from reed makers like yours and adjust them later, in your case where you cant simply just adjust them yourself, i'd say that you try and settle your embouchure problems for a while and try to sort out what causes the squeks in a very concentrated manner. Try and see if your reeds do better in a few days, there is a possibility that cane has not settled quite well enough yet, since its new, so don't worry too much and keep on practisin'!
howard
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2005-09-23 13:41
It sounds to me as if the major issue is a different style of reed than what you have been playing.
Handmade reeds don't necessarily come in "perfect" condition. I chose my reedmaker because his reeds work immediately throughout all registers, but I almost always have to adjust mine, at least a little. Most reedmakers work on the premise that it is better to do too little, in the way of refining a reed, than too much. Too little, you can always correct it by doing more. Too much, and it's a goner.
It may be, in fact, that handmade reeds have more quirks than machine made ones. But the eventual difference in tone is usually worth it.
Did you try reducing the tip opening by pinching? That usually works wonders for me.
If you want to try to adjust the reed, you need to find something really thin, rigid, narrow, and flat, like a guitar pick (which -- sshhh! -- is what my teacher uses) or a flat washer (from your tool kit or junk drawer) or the tip of a small butter or canape knife, etc., that you might use for a plaque substitute.
Find something like that. Wet the reed well. CAREFULLY insert the plaque into the tip, between the blades. (I was scared spitless the first time I had to do this.)
Now take your single-edged razor blade and scrape LIGHTLY and GENTLY with the grain, just along the corners of the tip at the top of the reed -- envision this as being just a bit of a triangle from the side to the tip of the reed, no more than 1/16 to 1/32 of an inch on any side of the triangle. Some folks call these the "ears". Some makers will actually crop these corners off.
Do the scrape above on all four corners of the reed (i.e., on both sides). Then test it. Does it play more easily?
You might still need to thin the tip a little. Insert plaque substitute, and scrape just the tiniest amount -- barely sawdust -- off the very, very edge all the way across the tip, on both sides. Try the reed. Better to take not enough than too much. If that helps, but it's not quite there, do it again.
If it's still balky, consider taking a little material away from the heart (not the center, just the sides). Again, use the plaque, scrape gently, both sides the same.
These actions will not affect the pitch of the reed much, most likely. If anything, they would tend to raise the pitch. Scraping out the windows, on the other hand, tends to lower the pitch.
I know this is frustrating. But, as you said, it's not like a sax reed -- "blow and go".
Maybe we should start a thread on reed adjusting dilemmas?
Susan
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Author: winstondawg
Date: 2005-09-23 17:47
Sorry to hear about your problems. Can't help you, as I am myself just learning. Nonetheless, I'm dealing with www.reedmaker.com for my reeds now and you can actually speak to the maker himself (Kerry) if there are any problems or adjustments to be made. By the way, I got his website from this forum.
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2005-09-24 04:22
Hey Dutchy, yo' no sayin' youse a dead duck? Wobo!
... probably a bit droll to ask an obvious but overlooked possibility with trouble playing above top G ... you are remembering to switch from 1st octave to 2nd octave when playing from top G to A? Is semi-auto octave mechanism working properly? 2nd octave is actually opening and fully closing 1st? Mechanism was last key oiled ... when that other screw fell out? Well waddya know, it's due time for another maintenance check ...
... hm ... think this could be a case of the infant prodigy ... musically sophisticated player of another previous instrument eager but impatient to get ahead, has pablum 6-month old oboe embouchure but wants to try out meaty reeds, has under-estimated oboe's reputation as being difficult ...
... alas! buying hand-made 'pro' reeds does not, repeat does not, increase the percentage of playable reeds, but does greatly increase reed expenses to said eager infant prodigy ... but hey, learning by trial and error is a legit part of the process too ... (:-)
... suggest put 'pro' reeds aside (well dried & in container to safe-guard your investment) for an indefinite future date, and go buy some more reeds in brands you know you can play with the embouchure you've got just now. Astronomical reed expense is another reason oboe is difficult to play
... it does appear you're ready for medium, so don't get medium-soft any more. Get 3 medium reeds, and rotate them every 20 minutes for each hour of play (extends playing life of each reed, gives your embouchure a workout on three different reeds with their own unique challenges). When those reeds are mellow, go buy another 3 medium and challenge your embouchure all over again
... as for the 'pro' reeds, try them out again after your second set of three reeds are mellow, and see if you can play them any easier ... amazing how 'unplayable' reeds become pretty good when embouchure shapes up ... ;-)
... 'pro reeds' are often semi-finished so real pros can adjust the reeds to suit themselves, so another option could be to hunt & find $omebody in your area with oboe savvy and a really sharp reed knife to fix reed$ to $uit you now. Also, if you do this, or learn how to DIY, your commercial reeds can be customised to play better for your embouchure as it changes and develops and ... bingo ... you've got 'hand-finished' reeds :-)
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Author: Dutchy
Date: 2005-09-24 13:08
I sent them back. I don't have $24 to lock up as an "investment".
Meanwhile, out of curiousity I also ordered and received three lower-priced (read: El Cheapo) reeds from someone on eBay--they too need "biting" to play up to pitch, but at least they (a) play the upper octave without complaint, and (b) don't give me random squeaks in the lower register.
Thus I conclude that it's not a case of me ambitiously outpacing my embouchure, but that Brian Charles had an off-day on the day he was supposed to "hand finish" the (probably quite large) batch of reeds that included my two. It's still mass-producing reeds, so they're still "factory" reeds to a certain extent. And when he sits down to "hand finish" probably several hundred reeds at a time, it's not surprising that they may not get quite as much attention as one of his eBay from-scratch handmade reed may.
I did try pinching them--all it did was make them close up completely when I asked for A'', Bb'', and C''. And they're billed as "student" reeds, specially suitable for someone who hasn't been playing long---which is me. I would think that a "student" reed would require LESS touching up and adjusting by the user, since it could reasonably be assumed that a student wouldn't know how, that a student, like a student driver, needs something she can hop in and start up and drive away, without having to worry about complex shifting patterns.
Ya know, it's fine with me if I just keep on using the Fox reeds. It's just that everybody keeps going, "Oh, my goodness, you can't use factory reeds!" that prompted me to experiment with "hand-made" reeds.
I ordered two Evans reeds from eBay last night. We'll see.
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2005-09-24 15:14
Hi Dutchy --
I played mostly Evans reeds when I was first playing -- they are really free-blowing and responsive (at least, the ones I got were), though a bit on the bright side. Last year at this time, they were my "reeds of choice".
As Winstondawg has said, Kerry Willingham at http://www.reedmaker.com is a very good source of eminently playable reeds. I have never played his "student" reeds (which he sells for $10 a pop), but I see many positive comments on his site from those who use them. I play his medium-hard pros all the time now. They offer the best combination of ease and good color of any reed I have tried, play well high, and don't balk on the low notes at all. When I started using Kerry's reeds, I began getting all sorts of amazed compliments from listeners and conductors about my playing. They are my "secret weapon".
And the very best part, as Winstondawg has said, is that Kerry GUARANTEES every reed. You don't like it -- he makes you another one. He is very accessible and involved, and will work with you to craft just the right reed.
If you will contact me directly (my email address is available by clicking my name at the top of this post), I would like to send you a couple of reeds. No big deal -- just my way of "paying forward" some of the help I was given.
Susan Kundert
Coshocton, OH
Post Edited (2005-09-24 15:19)
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Author: Dutchy
Date: 2005-09-24 20:08
No, goodness, no need for that, now I feel bad that I made YOU feel bad. I'm okay, really, this isn't some kind of huge "oh no, maybe I'm going to quit the oboe" crisis.
And anyway, guess what? I just got done playing with my two brand-new Gower reeds and they're fine. They don't complain about the octave, they don't give me random squeaks and squawks from the lower register. So it's not my embouchure, it's not the oboe, it's that I got a couple of bad reeds.
--So now you're going, "Where did she get two Gower reeds in a single Saturday morning?"
And I answer, in some embarrassment, "From the bottom of my 'oboe stuff' box."
--where I tossed them when they arrived, way back before Labor Day. Sheesh. :rolleyes: NOW it all comes back to me... I was totally swamped by work and Back-To-School and my second kid starting college and other Real Life stuff, so when they came, I glanced at the invoice and tossed them in there, and totally forgot about them, until after lunch today, when I was rather crossly rummaging through all the junque in there, and stumbled across them. Egad. Two reeds.
And they play nice. They were kind of open and flat, but I soaked 'em and pinched them a bit, and now they're fine.
So I'm fine.
And you're fine.
And you're very kind.  Pay it forward to somebody else who really needs it. And deserves it. And who can keep track of their dang reeds.
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Author: d-oboe
Date: 2005-09-24 21:15
I hate to say this but it's probably the reeds! Even the best handmade reed will have its limitations. It's impossible for someone else to make reeds that suit another person exactly. They can make an approximation, but that's about it.
Many things can affect reeds. If I remember correctly, Charles Double reed is in California, where it is relatively dry, but still warm. If your climate is different than that, the reed will change. It may be the cause of the flatness, or the unresponsive low register.
Your best bet might be to invest in some reed adjusting tools. A knife, a plaque, a cutting block, and some razor blades. This will allow you to scrape and adjust premade reeds, so that you can play on them better. They won't be great, but at least you should be able to get response.
D
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Author: d-oboe
Date: 2005-09-25 21:09
If you really want to save on reeds in the long run - even if you are only playing casually - I would recommend getting the adjusting tools. A good knife is worth the price. Then, as ohsuzan does, contact your reedmaker and discuss with them just what you want out of a reed.
Just a *bit* of reasoning...I promise!
In most cases a reed that is less refined has more wood on it - a reed that has more wood on it will last longer. So, ask your reedmaker to make less refined reeds for you - then you can play them, which should refine them a little, and use a knife to make any final adjustments.
The problem with "perfectly" finished student reeds, is that they die after about a week(assuming moderate practice!) because they are so thin in the heart area already.
Once you get comfortable with that routine, you could even move to part-scrape reeds, which are significantly cheaper than finished ones. Not all reedmakers will do this for you, but some do. They basically send a reed that has the general dimensions and shape of a reed, but isn't quite playable yet. They leave that up to you!
Final option is to try to find an oboist near you! Some can be convinced to make the occasional extra reed or two. For example, I sell my reeds for 20$ Canadian to anyone, and 10$ to my students, who give me the reed+tube back once the reed has finally died.
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Author: d-oboe
Date: 2005-09-26 17:21
Ah that's right. I was thinking of Forrests.
Either way, a difference in climate can produce unwanted changes. It could very well be that a "perfect" reed leaving the reed shop might not be as perfect in a different climate.
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Author: Dutchy
Date: 2005-09-28 16:12
Okay, my Evans reeds arrived last night--and they're really stiff and hard to play. They're billed as "medium soft", but it's all I can do to get a sound out of 'em. I have to bite, and blow really hard. In appearance, they "look" huge and open, but I'm scared to try to pinch them, because they're supposed to be "done right", aren't they? They don't "crow", either.
Dunno what you mean by "free-blowing", Susan, but the Giardinelli brand reeds, both medium and medium-soft, that I have are a lot more "free-blowing" than this.
So I'm going to assume that it must be a embouchure issue after all. I guess I'll hang onto these, since I know that they are 100% hand-made and not merely "hand-finished". Maybe if I keep working with them a little bit every day, some day I'll be able to use them.
Do most beginners find factory reeds easier to play than hand-made?
I'm assuming that different reedmakers have different standards of what constitutes "soft", "medium", etc. So, what, you just experiment with reedmakers until you find one that suits your personal style? I thought that was just for professionals, but beginners have to go through it, too?
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Author: sylvangale
Date: 2005-09-28 17:26
I think you'll find that different reeds from different makers behave differently. Try Nielson's woodwinds for an example. They offer numerous selections of handmade reeds from different anonymous makers. The quality and hardness is vastly different between the different makers for the same reed that should be the same hardness. Med-Hard is just a guideline... many are softer than norm, many are harder. It's why you need to learn to adjust a reed somewhat to what your needs are.
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Author: oboist
Date: 2005-09-28 18:42
HI !
I understand your frostaration,but the only way here is to learn how to adjust store boght reeds by yourself.
You may ask for basic reedmaking lessons,to get to understand how reed works and what part of the reed responsible for particular functions.
Get yourself a goof knive,plaque and cutting block,and stick to only one type of the reed from the same source
hope it helps
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2005-09-28 20:34
Hi Dutchy --
Well, I don't recall ever having an Evans reed that I thought was too hard or too resistant (there may be a difference between "hardness" and "resistance" -- I think what we normally call "hard" would actually be better termed *resistant*). If anything, the problem was the opposite.
Do you recall that, somewhere on this board, I wrote that in my first year or so of playing, I thought almost all reeds were "too hard" -- and then when I went to a teacher and figured out what was wrong with my embouchure, all my "too hard" reeds (many adjusted) were suddenly "too soft"? You may be travelling on that same road . . .
I would definitely fool around with them for a couple of days. They will change. The first day with a new reed, I treat it rather gingerly, and don't play it very long -- just long enough to get some idea of what it sounds like and how it responds. Second day, I play a little longer, and start to pinch, etc. By the third day, I have a pretty good idea of what the ultimate character of the reed is going to be, and I might make a few adjustments (as described in my post above, in this thread).
Reeds DO change over time. I continue making adjustments over the life of the reed, in many instances. A reed that was "just right" one day can seem impossible the next -- and if you have to play that day, you have to adjust the reed to where it will work at the time.
I have had the experience of getting a reed that I thought was perfectly awful, tossing it unhappily into the box I reserve for such things, and then come back to it weeks or months later and find out that it is pretty good, after all. The opposite also happens -- a reed will start out great and then wimp out after a day or two.
Sounds like your next investment should be a plaque and a little cutting block, and maybe a knife (although I have gone this far with nothing more than the razor blade). The plaque and block will not set you back very much -- I think about $5.00. The knife can cost as much as you want to pay. My teacher -- who is telling me I need to get one now, because I am going to start scraping reeds (from blanks, not from scratch!) -- says you can get a good knife for $20.00. I think that sounds low from what I have seen, but I will let her advise me on this.
Courage! Maybe we should talk about embouchure next?
Susan
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Author: sylvangale
Date: 2005-09-29 17:20
I just thought I would chime in as I just got to try a couple of medium "student" Charles Reeds that I got recently with a new Oboe... they are hand-cut, but I don't believe they were tested at all for playability.
I would probably recommend going with a reed maker that makes sure their reeds function. Though if Charles has a return policy on reeds, make use of it!
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Author: Dutchy
Date: 2005-09-30 23:15
<<< Get yourself a goof knive >>>
Okay.
[goes out to buy a goof knife]
:D
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2005-10-01 02:37
[goes out to buy a goof knife]
Yeah, that's what I'm afraid of, too -- and why I don't yet have a knife.
S.
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Author: rgombine
Date: 2005-10-01 03:58
Although it is impossible to tell without seeing them, you are describing reeds which are too open. This is a typical problem with a new reed.
Although many will say you **need** a plaque to tame the opening, I haven't found this to be true and it has been many years since I have used one for this procedure. My current horn is pitched a little low, and so these days every reed I make needs its opening tweeked! I can't remember the last time I've cracked a reed doing it.
I would try the following: soak the reed until it is playable (another area of intense debate on this board . . .for our purposes, I would suggest dipping the reed in water and let it marinate for a 3-4 minutes. that should be plenty).
When the reed is soaked, take your thumb and forefinger of your left hand and gently squeeze the tip shut (you should contact the reed on the top side of the heart and the tip should be no longer visible). Then, while holding pressure with your left hand, use the thumb and forefinger of your R hand and squeeze firmly on the back, above the string. This second step is what tames the opening . . . squeezing the tip shut at the same time prevents cracking.
Go easy on the back at first, because if squeezed to hard you may end up with too small an opening. You can always repeat the procedure with greater force if you need it to be more closed still.
Good luck.
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Author: sömeone
Date: 2005-10-01 12:16
Good piece of advise, and i can't wait to try it! I assume it works with older reeds as well?
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Author: sylvangale
Date: 2005-10-04 07:25
Basic adjusting of the Oboe reed... NOW. (with store bought reeds)
1. Go to a hardware store and buy a box of razor blades.
2. Print the diagram at this site.
http://www.public.asu.edu/~schuring/Oboe/diagram.html
3. Your reed should be 70mm long in general a little more or less won't kill you. If you're reed is too long and flat you can cut the tip shorter with scissors to proper length (sharp)... cut as little as possible and test until you get close to where you want... never good to cut to much of any tips!
4. Measure 10mm from tip. Note this point. The 10mm space to tip is your heart, don't cut your heart.
5. See diagram. See areas marked as "backs"... I'll call them windows. Scrape wood evenly from the windows of your reed on both sides avoid the center spine and the outer edges.
Practice on bad reeds and see if you can put life into them... get harder than normal reeds and see if you can get them to play for youself. Have fun!
When you get a reed knife and a plaque you can thin out your tips for wonderful effect. If you try to thin with a razor blade or without plaque you have a great risk of shredding your tip, possibly (most likely) killing your reed.
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Author: sömeone
Date: 2005-10-04 09:26
the url is not accesible, mind posting it here again? thanks a lot.
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Author: Dutchy
Date: 2005-10-05 02:04
Works for me.
http://www.public.asu.edu/~schuring/Oboe/diagram.html
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2005-10-05 02:27
. . . and, just in case you all didn't notice the "Oboe Info" link on the reed-diagram page, go here
http://www.public.asu.edu/~schuring/Oboe/oboeinfo.html
to access all sorts of other good information from Martin Schuring's invaluable website.
Especially look under the "Reed Adjustment Guide". It's the absolutely best guide to reed adjustment that I've found. I use it all the time. N.B., he DOES suggest scraping a little from the heart now and then.
Schuring's website is a treasure!
Susan
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