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 Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: ohsuzan 
Date:   2008-01-04 15:40

In another thread (http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=10&i=9846&t=9846), sylvangale wrote a comment about the Barret studies.

I think this deserves its own thread! Here's what he said, and my comments:

<I recommend neither edition. Barret is obsolete and the Schuring edition is its death-knell*.>

Thank you for saying that, Stephen! While I appreciate (and benefit from dealing with) the technical issues that get addressed in Barret, I found the most of the etudes hackneyed and unmusical, and found it difficult to want to spend more than the minimum necessary time on them. (That's why I switched to Prestini.)

I also agree with your assessment of the "Melodious and Practical" books --they do not address oboe-specific technical issues all that well. But they are really nice little pieces of music. More than once, I have wished there were piano accompaniments to some of them.

I'll have to take a look at the Andraud series. I think I've got them somewhere around here. Doesn't (didn't?) Southern batch them up and sell them as a set with a bunch of other older titles?

Susan



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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: cjwright 
Date:   2008-01-04 16:43

Oh my, I'm not even sure what to say about this thread, other than I can see Marcel Tabuteau, John Mack, and John de Lancie rolling in their graves already!

I think those who studied the Barret cover to cover from a 1st generation Tabuteau student certainly have a way about bringing the book alive.

Like any other music, the Barret can be as musical or as boring as you want to make it. Finding a good teacher who knows the book really really well is probably when you begin to see the value of Barret, and since it's been used by some of the finest teachers in the United States for several generations (I can't comment about other countries) the traditions of each etude have been passed along. I think that's why it's been such a standard; it's been taught, and taught well, for so long while other methods haven't been used as exhaustively.

I think before you pass judgement on such a tool, it's worth studying with someone who has studied the book cover to cover with MT, JM, or JdL.

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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: hautbois 
Date:   2008-01-04 16:50

I certainly agree with Cooper. I recall auditioning for All-Eastern Orchestra in the 1950's. Joseph Marx was one of the audition judges. He was horrified to learn that I was not using Barret, and immediately sent me a copy. (I won the principal audition, by the way.) It has been an important source of my musical development since then, both in the exercises directed towards gaining facility and control, and in my development of understanding of musical line. But the Barret needs to be accompanied with an excellent teacher.
Elizabeth

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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: d-oboe 
Date:   2008-01-04 18:01

The thing about barret...

It's exposed music. Particularly in the progressive melodies, there's no really difficult finger passages to hide behind. That's probably why it's easy to get bored with. To be successful at Barret (and maybe enjoy it, too) you have to really sit and listen. The way he wrote those studies forces you to phrase properly - otherwise it just sounds..well...eye-rolling.

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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: JudyP 
Date:   2008-01-04 18:13

Hi Susan,
I received "Barret", edited by Schuring, as a Christmas gift, and I have only tried one of the articulation exercises and the first progressive melody. So far, I like it.

I can see why a teacher would be needed to augment the exercises in it (referring to Cooper's and Hautbois' comments), but certainly, any oboe student could benefit from the exercises and other music in it without a teacher...I hope. :)



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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: mschmidt 
Date:   2008-01-04 18:16

Interesting. The previous thread which talked about a Barret etude prompted me to unearth my Barret, having neglected it in recent years for "more important music." I found that the etude being discussed was well worth playing. Others brought back bad memories, alas: those etudes which I never quite "got." Some, I think, could safely be neglected--there is bound to be some unevenness in any big series--but on the whole I think there is a lot to be learned from the collection.

Mike

Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore



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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: JRJINSA 
Date:   2008-01-04 18:33

I find it fun. Though the pieces are mostly unrecognizable to me, that's what makes them challenging and enforces me to be a better sight reader. I really gets fun when I play the duets with my teacher and they all come together. I find nothing boring or wrong with Barrets, and in fact recommend it. Even the scale exercises are kinda fun.

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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: cjwright 
Date:   2008-01-04 18:46

David Weber writes regarding this thread:

To whomever does not like the Barret Oboe Method Book:

Gee Whiz, the Barret was good enough for John de Lancie, John Mack, Dick Woodhams, et moi. Learn to transpose it, too. "If you want to know the path, ask someone who has been there." Yes, the editor's marks (accents, crescendos, etc. ) are bogus. Schuring's version fixed many of them but retained too many for me. I ignore them, anyway. Make up your own. "Make a line with your wind, and place the notes on the line." JdL. Erase them from your printed page or your mind, and just make music with friend Barret. The oboe must serve the music, not the other way around.

The best Barret version is Leduc, Paris. Comes in 3 (or more) volumes.

dw

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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: Dutchy 
Date:   2008-01-04 19:26

The Barret etudes are exactly what I need at the stage where I am--the Hal Leonard 16-bar ditties are too easy, but the other books of etudes like Ferling are just too hard, too intimidating. And the technical exercises found in Gekeler, Rubank, et al, aren't really "pieces" as such. They're just "exercises".

So I think there will continue to be a niche for Barret. Intermediate type studies can never be "obsolete" as long as there are students caught halfway between Go Tell Aunt Rhodie and Beethoven's 7th.

BTW, I find the Barret much more interesting to play since I used MusicMasterworks to make myself piano accompaniments to the first 9 or so, burned onto a CD. Maybe they only strike people as obsolete or useless if they're playing them unaccompanied. I find that with the accompaniment, they're musically quite charming, if perhaps a little simplistic, but then, they're not intended to be Mozart, they're only intended to help a student, say, learn how to slur left-Eb without getting blips.

And let us not forget introducing the student to ornamentation. I've been through them once without, and now I'm trying them "with". It's very interesting, and I'm sure, educational.

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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: Bobo 
Date:   2008-01-04 21:27

This thread is odd. Why? Because Sylvangale based his (qualified) view that Barret is obsolete on the fact that there are several good method books out there that incorporate a ton of Barret and other etudes in them! So you're still getting Barret anyway. I think he was just arguing that pure Barret is not as good as selected Barret accompanied by other stuff, not that Barret is not worthwhile. Incidentally, my path through the books was as follows (long, long ago): Breeze Easy, Gekeler 1, Gekeler 2, Andraud Practical and Progressive, Ferling 1 and 2, Andraud Vade Mecum, plus a couple of concertos every year. Gekeler 2 and the Andraud books are filled with Barret (plus Ferling, Blatt, Verroust, Klose and god knows how much more!). I never did pure Barret and my teacher was a student of F. Gillet. I'm open to an argument that pure Barret is a must and should be done at some point if you're going to be a pro, but those other books are fantastic, and anyway as many have pointed out, getting a great teacher is the most important thing.

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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: kdrew922 
Date:   2008-01-04 21:46

What a great thread!

My opinion is that Barret remains a valuable pedagogical tool, so long as its limitations are recognized. Barret is great for learning how to play Beethoven and Brahms. Of course, since it's mostly second-rate composition, one can perhaps learn to play Beethoven and Brahms better by actually playing Beethoven and Brahms. This is a matter that has always puzzled me. I think one would be better off ordering oboe parts and miniature scores to all the symphonies and concertos of Beethoven and Brahms. Of course, that would cost a bit more than a single method book. So, I think Barret is valuable primarily because it is a convenient and expedient book for getting a general idea of how to play a certain portion of the oboe's repertoire. It's an excellent starting point for students who wish to learn basic concepts of phrasing and articulation as applicable to tonal music of the nineteenth century.

Having said all that, I think it is too often forgotten that Barret is an ineffective, even counterproductive, pedagogical tool for most seventeenth and eighteenth century music, and it teaches absolutely nothing about the performance of much twentiety-century repertoire.

Yes, Tabuteau and Mack and DeLancie and many others have sworn by Barret... but consider their situations: they were full-time orchestral players who were training their students to be full-time orchestral players. Most kids who pick up the oboe never end up playing in a major symphony. They are more likely to play Bach cantatas in church, Telemann partitas just for fun, or a predominantly twentieth-century woodwind quintet repertoire.

As oboists, most of our best repertoire comes from the eighteenth and twentieth centuries. As a solo and chamber instrument, the oboe mostly died out in the nineteenth century. Sure, we have all the flashy salon music, and I love that gibberish as much as the next fellow, but we have very little quality repertoire from that era. All the good stuff is in orchestral scores, and only a small percentage of oboists end up playing full-time in orchestras. Yet many young oboists are taught how to phrase and articulate music primarily from nineteenth-century methods. What an incongruity! This works out well for the 1% of oboists who end up playing professionally in orchestras, but it leaves the other 99% ill-equipped to perform convincingly the repertoire they are most likely to play.

OK, there's my rant about Barret. I like it. Honest. I really do. It's a very useful book. But it has serious limitations, and it just bothers me every time I hear someone who was raised on Barret, Brod, and Ferling absolutely butchering a Handel sonata.

Cheers,
Drew

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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: Bobo 
Date:   2008-01-04 22:29

Drew,

That's very perceptive, I think. Tabuteau and Gillet, the two French treetrunks of American oboe came right out of that 19th century salon tradition - Verroust etc. So the French traditions got passed down. But what serious course of study would focus exclusively on the 19th century stuff and not throw in Handel, Marcello, Bach and Mozart as well as Britten, Martinu, Poulenc, etc.? (Come to think of it though, I was never exposed to Vivaldi for oboe as a youngun, a major omission looking back on it). Is anyone seriously proposing a diet of Barret alone? Yuck!

Which reminds me of another great book that's great fun and a big bargain, Jay Arnold's Oboe Solos. It's got the Mozart quartet, the Schuman Romances, great Handel Sonatas, some Telemann and a boat load of other great stuff from easy to very hard for a nice low price.



Post Edited (2008-01-04 22:34)

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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: cjwright 
Date:   2008-01-04 23:41

True, there is some stylistic tendancies of Barret that might not be applicable to 20th century music, but what is applicable is the phrasing concepts and articulative concepts that are taught in each study. For example:

1. How do you properly come off the first slur and "bounce" the 3rd and 4th 16th notes of the 1st articulation study? (the same articulation is used in the 2nd mvt of Gounod's Petite Symphonie on the repeated notes)
2. What is the 1st Grand study teaching regarding the line of the air, and approaching the high notes with "up" inflections? (How much harder is it to play the correct inflections on Brahms' 1 mvt 2 solo?)
3. Can you technically play those trills in the 2nd Grand study as a true trill (twice) rather than a single mordent? (Try playing the trill passage on the last movement of Symphonie Fantastique!)
4. How do you change the color of each variation in the 7th Grand Study? (What about the color changes in Mozart's C minor Serenade, the Theme/Variations movement on that!)
5. Try transposing the 1st Grand study up a half step. That makes more interesting? (Hm... the Lovely C# or Db major... With lots of low C#s)

I think all of these skills are applicable to all music, from baroque to 20th century. Barret requires learning the finesse of all oboe playing, whether it being how to play proper inflections to resolving an apoggiatura correctly to even decrescendoing on some of the hardest notes (low C#). All of these transfer to 20th century music. For example:

1. How to resolve and play the correct inflections on the first notes of Hanson's Pastorale.
2. Those tough intervals in the first phrase of the Poulenc Sonata, the correct inflections, and decrescendoing to nothing on the F#
3. All sorts of articulative changes on pieces such as Berio's Sequenza

As I stated previously, I think you really need a teacher who is aware of each melody, and specifically what concepts it's teaching so that you can focus on that concept for that melody. It also has a teacher who can point out that very concept in playing usage. Why is learning how to resolve suspensions in Beethoven more important than learning it in Barret? It's the same concept, just a different setting. If you learn it in Barret, you will recognize it and apply the same knowledge to Beethoven.

Finally, I'd like to point out that in Richard Woodham's tribute to his teacher John de Lancie, he states some pretty important stuff. (Richard Woodhams is principal in the Philadelphia Orchestra, entered Curtis when he was 16, and is now the oboe instructor there.)

Quote:

"The oboe curriculum at Curtis consisted almost entirely of etudes, long tones, slow scales and arpeggios and occasionally duets."


Quote:

"We then went on to the first Barret melody where he explained how the use of the “speed of the wind” applied to musical phrasing by creating motion suggested by the underlying harmonic tension and relaxation defined by the bass line and by the melodic shape and structure of the music. In a variant of the dictum of “putting the notes on the wind,” he said I must learn to “play between the notes” to achieve a true legato and compelling musical line, and demonstrated with a slow scale where all the notes were perfectly conjoined and matching in timbre."


Quote:

"My instruction in Barret continued through all the Articulation exercises, Melodies, Sonatas, and Grand Studies. I recall many inspirational musical ideas conveyed to me through this music, which is full of many genuinely inventive and touching early romantic melodies and covers a wide range of expression. Mr. de Lancie brought out its worth to me by showing musical moods, contrasts, rubato (now almost a lost art), rhythmic variety of expression, and sensitivity to harmonic changes. He spent a great deal of time emphasizing the art of phrasing, as his teacher had and as I do, defining the relationship of the notes to one another in the music by grouping them with the use of “musical punctuation,” and within each group finding, by intensity and duration, the best way to allow the music to “speak.” This creates the possibility of an eloquent, poetic musical narrative and gives music a meaning to the receptive listener that is far deeper than the more common approaches of a declamatory style of expression, or a simply unacceptable monotone devoid of musical meaning. Mr. de Lancie frequently employed Tabuteau’s “number system” in order to point out how music must constantly move and develop, how it is built often upon progressions, and how notes should not arbitrarily stick out in a phrase simply because of the instrument’s resonance on a particular note."


Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra

Post Edited (2008-01-04 23:43)

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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: mschmidt 
Date:   2008-01-05 00:20

The "more important music" I was referring to in my previous post in this thread--what I had been neglecting Barret in favor of--was a lot of 18th and 20th century stuff. I think the emotional lift I got from my rediscovery of Barret was in some part due to the fact that, having been trained on it, it was easier to know "how to play it right" compared to figuring out how best to play Britten's Metamorphoses or Händel's sonatas. So I do think there is a lot to kdrew's criticisms.

Mike

Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore



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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: HautboisJJ 
Date:   2008-01-05 02:26

Interesting thread. I woud have to say in my very own personal opinion that while Barret is the 'premier' oboe method used in the states, there seem to be a lack of interest in other existing methods, which seem to me a shame as the quality in these books are just as high in all aspects.

Barret is of course valuable when used intelligently, but so are the methods of Hinke, Gillet, Tibor (which is absolutely brilliant for 20th century music!), Sellner, Brown, Bleuzet, Ferling etc. No intention to detest Barret's value, but should the majority of oboe study time be put into it, and does this apply in every level of learning? (e.g. high school students, conservatory students, adult beginner) It is interesting to find out what works for certain people and what does not, and my limited experience tells me that this can be quite different in result.

Howard

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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: sylvangale 
Date:   2008-01-05 05:18

Interesting thread this became.

I believe that the book Barret oboe method is on it's way out as the exclusion of scale studies in the new Barret will force teachers to find another book to pair Barret with, which may be so chock full of Barret already, that the need for a student to work with "The Barret Method" will be greatly diminished and eventually extinguished as more all-encompassing methods are readily accessible now.

(Thanks Bobo)

I do agree with Susan that the Barret etudes aren't the most innately musical lines written <g>. I play Barret because it's supposed to be good for me and if I can play them mixed up in another book with other etudes rather than all of Barret in a row, great!

(Susan, the Andraud I have is by Southern and it looks like the old Barret Method, but green with nothing written on the spine)


♫ Stephen K.


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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: Dutchy 
Date:   2008-01-05 16:04

I think that some of the more rarified discussion here is ignoring the main point of Barret, which is simply to educate beginners. I was upstairs working on No. 39 just now, and it struck me that it's a perfect example of this. It does what it was designed to do: it serves to introduce advanced concepts in a piece longer than an 8 or 16-bar technical exercise.

--key signature of 4 sharps. There's a challenge for the beginner, right there. Virtually everything a beginner has encountered thus far has been in Bb, Eb, Ab, G, C, D, or F.

--BUT: it's actually in C#minor, thus reinforcing the concept, already covered by this time, of a "relative minor" key, but with (gasp!) four sharps. Psychologically quite tricky to think about, for a beginner.

--Double sharps. Again, tricky.

--And, just to make it even more challenging, they don't happen just once a measure and then you can forget about it; no, they repeat during the measure, so you have to actually remember that that F# is still an F##, or a G natural. If I hadn't already had piano extensively, my head would be exploding about now.

--Accidental sharps not on those old familiars, like F or G or C, but on A and B. You who are already deeply immersed in advanced music may forget how challenging it can be, first, to visualize what an A# or B# must be, and then to play it every time it comes around.

--Three and four measures before the end, there's a combination of duples and triplets. Again, my extensive piano and choir background stands me in good stead here, but a 13-year-old would be stumped for a while, to get the rhythm right. And again, all of you old hands find this boring, but some of us out here have never had to deal with this before.

--And of course, once you get the actual notes figured out, then you're faced with the correct alternation of slurring and staccato. Those of you who do it without thinking, remember those of us who still have to stop and think about it.

So, don't be too quick to write off Barret just yet. [wink] As long as there are beginners who are bored with Go Tell Aunt Rhodie and need something more challenging than a 16-bar exercise, but aren't ready for Ferling & Co., there will be a need for Barret.

And actually, I think they're pretty tunes, too. So there. [tongue]



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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: ohsuzan 
Date:   2008-01-05 17:04

Whee! Great discussion! (Which is what I had hoped would happen, with the provocative topic.)

As for studying Barret with someone who knows it intimately, and learned it from JM, that is exactly, precisely, what I did. And I still chafed at it. I APPRECIATE it, but I don't LIKE it. That's why she switched me off to Prestini.

Its not my cup of tea, musically, although it is valuable for the technical challenges it makes you confront.

Someone else recently suggested to me that, instead of obssessing about either Barret or Prestini, I might be well-advised to do what another poster here suggests, and that is, to go directly to the orchestral literature (e.g., the Vade Mecum).

Still haven't done that -- I've been too busy playing nursing home and Elks Club gigs, and trying to start an Internet business.

Off now to play another one of these cocktail-party events with the quintet.

Soldier on!

Susan

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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: kdrew922 
Date:   2008-01-05 17:12

> So, don't be too quick to write off Barret just yet. [wink] As
> long as there are beginners who are bored with Go Tell Aunt
> Rhodie and need something more challenging than a 16-bar
> exercise, but aren't ready for Ferling & Co., there will be a
> need for Barret.
>
> And actually, I think they're pretty tunes, too. So there.
> [tongue]


Hehehe, yeah, Barret has some pretty tunes. It really is a useful book. I would never deny that. But I do think that there are a few other equally useful books. I think students would get a more complete education if, for example, for every one of Barret's progressive melodies or articulation studies they learned, they also learned a movement from one of the Telemann partitas. You've got 42 movements of excellent music there, compositionally superior to much of Barret, comparable in difficulty and variety to the Barret pieces, comparable in price, and presenting an entirely different set of stylistic challenges. Plus, they can all be put together quite easily with a pianist for public performance. Some of these movements make EXCELLENT first solo pieces for young oboists. And yet they can be played so many different ways that you never really outgrow them, no matter how often you revisit them.

Cheers,
Drew



Post Edited (2008-01-05 17:15)

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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: mschmidt 
Date:   2008-01-05 18:18

Well, this morning I played through Grand Study #13 (not up to the marked tempo, alas!), followed by Phaeton of the Metamorphoses, and I can't say that Barret is totally irrelevant to Britten!

Edited to add: I must say, for someone who just plays for fun, no lessons, no group (yet!), this BBoard is wonderful for keeping me at it!

Mike

Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore



Post Edited (2008-01-05 18:20)

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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: vboboe 
Date:   2008-01-05 18:43

thank you, this has been a very informative discussion, it's certainly helped me find out where to put Barret (and Andraud, Ferling) in a sensible sequential place in my own studies

i haven't got The Complete Barret in any of the recommended editions, but it appears i do have some Barret in Gekeler 2

until my fingers can physically play these a tempo without fingering errors and expressivo as they feel to me to my own satisfaction, i won't be ready for refinements expected by a teacher, so all i can say is they're a huge range of mountains in front of me i've still got to cross

This means Gek 2's Barret is still an open book and i'm estimating it'll take at least two more years hard work before my fingers will do exactly what they're told without mistakes for this level of work -- my attitude is it doesn't matter how you blow if your fingers won't go!

it seems our general consensus is that The Complete Barret in any recommended edition is a valuable PART of any oboist's training repertoire, but it shouldn't be considered the be-all and end-all

i agree that a training plan for oboists should be liberally comprehensive, so that students are given adequate exposure and playing experience in all musical styles from the various eras right up to the present day

i also agree that a training plan needs to be very practical, by building necessary skills and spending enough study time on preparing for best bets in the real world of performance

as a starting point for beginners, i like the Standard of Excellence band method for putting the history of music into perspective, i can now see where Barret fits in musical history, although at the moment where i'm at,
it feels like the technical skill level is about Grade 5+ in order to play Barret meaningfully

Barret was good enough for well-known oboists say some, IMO that really isn't relevant as a good foundational reason for using Barret in training studies. What's more important as a relevant reason for using Barret is that it fills a niche for 18/19th Century (Beethoven & Brahms) studies, and the well-known oboists (now) went thataway because they needed the study experience in that era while they were students in training

this doesn't make The Complete Barret obsolete as a required university study aid, it makes Barret inclusive. Meanwhile, non-U amateurs like me can use the digest-size editions of Barret in other more readily obtainable music books to get a preview of the same material :-)

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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: JudyP 
Date:   2008-01-05 19:40

You go Dutchy. :) Those four sharps and (gulp) five flat (Db) scales and keys can ge reeeaalllly intimidating, and the only solution is to keep plugging away at them until the fingers are trained well. For me, Barrett will be a great help at the training. I haven't brought myself to the point of attempting the Db scale yet. [frown]



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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: johnt 
Date:   2008-01-05 20:14

Amen, JudyP.

There is no substitute for keeping at it. I have been playing oboe for ten years & am now just feeling comfortable with scales & music in 4, 5 & 6 flats. It's the daily grind & discipline of playing scales that makes it happen. Christopher Weaitt's great scale book is invaluable for this, as is Sellner; about 45 minutes a day seems about right for me. The major scales (full register) tonic up & down chromatically ending with the chromatic scale, then on to Christopher, then the Sellner arpeggios. Doing this makes the Tchaik 4th adagio oboe solo or the Dvorak Largo set of solo oboe sextuplets pieces of cake, at least as far as notes go. Once the notes are in place, the music follows; but the entré to all this is scale work ad infinitum.

Nailing the Dvorak spot on & the Respighi finale (EH solo) in Pini di Roma were the thrills of my ensemble playing in concert thus far. When the principle cello says "Good Work!" the effort makes it all worthwhile.

Happy & Prosperous New Year to all,

Best,

john

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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: Dutchy 
Date:   2008-01-05 20:34

Oddly enough, I'm more comfortable mentally in five flats than four sharps, mainly because back in the day I did a short stint as a Sunday evening service pianist at church, pounding out hymns, and since a lot of them are in Db, I got fairly comfortable with it. But hardly any hymns, in the Baptist hymnal at least, are in E, probably because pitching it in Eb makes it more high-note friendly, an Eb instead of an E, which makes a big difference to the non-singers singing along. [grin]

But being "less uncomfortable" in Db doesn't mean I wouldn't prefer everything in the whole wide world to be written in Bb. [grin] And the oboe sounds so gooooood in Bb, yanno?



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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: sylvangale 
Date:   2008-01-05 22:49

The Barret "Method":
When you're working Barret before you start any etude you should flip to the scale section and play one major and minor scale as written at 72 beats per minute everyday for a week. Plan your breathing (inhale and exhale). Change the major/minor scale you work on every week.

Then flip to the Diatonic scale section and work on an exercise there everyday for a week.

Then flip to the various scale section and work on an exercise every day of the week. Be mindful of where you tongue and where you slur, plan your breathing in pencil.

Then work on a Barret etude, one per week, every day for a week.

The value of the Barret method comes before the 40 studies. The 40 studies are the music after the practice.

The New Barret method removed the scale studies. It is however in readable print versus the old method which looks handwritten.

When I was taking lessons I was forced to use the old Barret for scales, but allowed to use Gekeler II for the 40 studies as that was modern print. I could have brought both Barret's, but that is just too much weight to lug around.

I strongly advise working on scales and other scalular etudes along with the Barret 40, you should see your playing ability improve faster than just with the Barret alone.

The Brod etudes have some great scalular studies, though I think only volume 2 is available online for purchase. If you're already a member of the IDRS you can get all Brod etudes here:
http://www.idrs.org/brod/index.html
The "Quarante Leçons Faciles et Progressives" is the precursor to the Barret 40 and there are liner notes that explain what each etude is trying to accomplish and makes some comparisons to Barret (obviously favoring Brod <g>). There is a smattering of Brod in the Andraud, but it's only a smattering.


♫ Stephen K.


Post Edited (2008-01-05 22:52)

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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: doublereeder2 
Date:   2008-01-06 03:58

I love the Barret book. Almost every melody is a complete work unto itself - oboistic problems to solve and beautifully operatic in nature. JM always said Barret wrote it as a teaching method and I can't imagine using anything else as a foundation with my students. And they love to fact that they are all duets. Learn how to read bass clef and play along with your students, friends, etc. They are wonderful musical experiences.

And I like the old plates used in printing the original book. Sometimes we have to play music printed in that old style - it is nice to know what it means :-) plus it gives the book an old fashioned charm. Call me a traditionalist if you want, but I love the old Barret and will continue to practice and teach from it.

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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: Dutchy 
Date:   2008-01-06 16:12

Too hard to read. [tongue] Gimme the Schuring every time. [grin]

Sylvangale, excellent guidelines, I'm going to print it out and work on incorporating it into my 2008 practice regimen. They always tell you, "Play Scales", so yeah, I can *play* the scales, but then it's like, "Okay, I played the scale, now what?"



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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: chrisoboe 
Date:   2008-01-07 02:06

perhaps I am getting in on this a bit late, but upon reading through the very interesting thoughts posted by everyone i find something that is a bit annoying: the habit of using the word "correct" as it is applied to a piece of music. certainly the style and character are essential, but to label a person who is not playing inflection in a certain way as 'incorrect' i think is offensive. music is still art. when we as oboists reduce pieces of music down a set of "paint by numbers", then we are taking all of the imagination and creativity out of it.

to be sure, tabuteau, mack , de lancie, et al. were great oboists of their time. but times change. there are whole worlds of oboe playing out there to which we as americans remain ignorant. who was the last american oboe player to win an international competition? the europeans and asians are the ones out there thinking creatively while we sit and try to analyze what was done 50 years ago. barret and all have their place certainly, but perhaps we need to look at them in a different light and stop thinking of things as 'correct' or 'incorrect'.

my 2 cents....

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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: cjwright 
Date:   2008-01-07 02:09

2007 IDRS Gillet Competition.

# 1st Place: Jeffrey Stephenson (USA)
# 2nd Place: Andrea Overturf (USA)

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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: chrisoboe 
Date:   2008-01-07 02:14

2 americans this past year... is that the best we can do? i think not. i am simply saying that we need to be more creative in our thoughts. its like saying that people who paint with different tools are wrong because they do not do what we want them to do.

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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: oboeblank 
Date:   2008-01-07 03:16

Perhaps you are forgetting about Alex Klein. He was one of the few oboists awarded first prize at the Munich ARD competition since Holliger, and you can bet that he is well-steeped in the Philly tradition of playing through his training with James Caldwell.

I think you need to look at the truth when it comes to playing the oboe here in North America. If you are looking to win an orchestral job and you go in and play like your coming from left field, you will be eliminated. I can't think of a large North American orchestral where their principal oboe section is a European transplant. Liang Wang of NYP is Chinese but American trained through and through and Eugene Izotov sounds more American then some American oboists. The same, of course, can be said about European orchestras...no American trained oboist in their ranks.

I personally think one of the greatest failings in music education is this idea of absolute freedom when it comes to music-play what you want, how you want and do whatever as long as it sounds good. Music is information and there IS a right way and a wrong way of playing things. That is the truth many just do not want to accept.

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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: chrisoboe 
Date:   2008-01-07 04:16

i was not forgetting alex klein when i wrote earlier; but if you think he was "trained" at oberlin, then i think you are a bit mistaken. he was an amazing player when he was in high school in brazil and a degree from an american school was just a formality. in fact richard killmer tells the story of a phone call he received from jimmy caldwell after alex's audition: "dick... you're not gonna believe it... jesus christ just walked out of my office, and he plays the oboe."

but you bring up a good point, alex klein is an amalgam of 2 different schools: he combines the tight focused sound prized by ray still with the broad connected legato style espoused by elaine douvas. this is the essence of what i was saying earlier... do you think that he, klein, sits around and writes numbers into his music because tabuteau did? no! he plays what makes musical sense. that is all i am saying. barret, ferling, brod, gillet, etc are all great tools, but in the end one must play for one's self, and not slavishly trying to play a line that tabuteau or mack might have agreed with.

about 'right and wrong things': are you going to say to albrecht mayer or dominik wollenweber that they are playing music incorrectly? subtle differences between schools of playing are of no concern to most audience members who can scarcely tell an oboe from a clarinet. however, you are most certainly correct about needing to conform to north american styles of playing, but that does not mean that one must COPY what went before. creativity does not equal "playing out of left field", it simply involves generating new and different thoughts. do you think thomas stacy plays his english horn solos the same way night after night with the new york phil? to someone as creative as him, it would be torture. but you can bet that everynight his solos always make the utmost musical sense.

i am not saying that you throw away your books and dance on anyone's grave... only that these men (tabuteau, jdl, mack, etc.) were creative and inventive during their time here and it would be insulting to their legacy not to continue to do so.



Post Edited (2008-01-07 04:18)

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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: JudyP 
Date:   2008-01-07 04:35

Now I'm confused. I thought that the "Complete Barret" was a way to
launch beginners and intermediates into a performance capability in high school and college. Aren't we expecting a bit much of them to be able to interpret a musical piece on their own? Doesn't the creativeness come along well after the intermediate stage? You have to start somewhere. Isn't Barret a good place to develop skill?

I'm more interested in doing it the correct way than my own way of creating it, and I'm maybe a little more than a beginner.



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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: chrisoboe 
Date:   2008-01-07 04:43

well, i (and i would think) most others here first encountered our first 'real' intimate time with barret during college under the watchful eyes and ears of our oboe professors. as has been said time and again in the thread: barret is most useful in conjunction with a teacher who knows what they are doing with it.

as far as developing skill goes, there are books like the gekeler volumes and many more for learning the ropes. but as long as i've known barret it has always been used as a tool in college, conservatories, etc. where the students are a bit more developed.

and the comment about "doing your own way" was meant toward following the idea of "correct and incorrect" inflections or ideas, not toward the foundations of playing.

hope that clears it up.

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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: kdrew922 
Date:   2008-01-07 08:30

oboeblank wrote:

> I personally think one of the greatest failings in music education is this idea of
> absolute freedom when it comes to music-play what you want, how you want
> and do whatever as long as it sounds good. Music is information and there
> IS a right way and a wrong way of playing things. That is the truth many
> just do not want to accept.

Hmm... this statement needs some clarification. To be sure, there are unequivocally verifiable statements that can be made about music. "There are four quarter notes within a bar of 4/4 time. Not three, not five, but four." But such statements typically deal with very elementary matters. When we talk about interpretive freedom, I don't think anyone is advocating that we encourage students to play as many beats in a bar as they like. We're talking more about choices of phrasing, articulation, tempo, etc. These are highly subjective matters. One cannot say that a certain way of phrasing is "wrong."

Is music really "information?" Take, for example, the well-known oboe solo in the first movement of Beethoven's 5th. To an extent, the notation is informative. But, again, only regarding some very elementary matters. It tells the performer a few things, like what notes to play, and the relative duration of these notes. But, beyond that, it conveys little that is concrete. The rest is up to the performer. Even when composers of later eras have attempted to be more precisely prescriptive, their attempts have often backfired, resulting in increased ambiguity. Using a dozen dynamic or articulation indications, instead of just two or three, doesn't necessarily lead to greater specificity. Since the meanings of musical markings are not set in stone, but rather vary according to context, more black ink on the score often just means more to set the interpretive gears turning.

And then we could get into some really dicey ideological disputes. If the composer has written one thing, is it actually "wrong" to play something else instead? I think that to some degree we would probably all say "yes" to that. After all, we were all born and raised in the twentieth century, when the ideology of the performer's subservience to the composer was hugely influential. But even in its heyday, that ideology was never 100% dominant. And in the long history of music, it's actually a relatively new way of thinking, today almost entirely relegated to our beloved, yet fairly small and culturally almost irrelevant, sphere of "classical" music.

Alright, enough of my rambling. I'm getting a bit removed from the original topic of this thread. But it's still a great discussion.

Cheers,
Drew



Post Edited (2008-01-07 08:37)

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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: kdrew922 
Date:   2008-01-07 08:37

chrisoboe wrote"

> i was not forgetting alex klein when i wrote earlier; but if you think he was
> "trained" at oberlin, then i think you are a bit mistaken. he was an amazing
> player when he was in high school in brazil and a degree from an american
> school was just a formality. in fact richard killmer tells the story of a phone call
> he received from jimmy caldwell after alex's audition: "dick... you're not gonna
> believe it... jesus christ just walked out of my office, and he plays the oboe."

Wonderful story! It really rubs me the wrong way when people talk about where this or that musician was "trained." Training is for monkeys. We should STUDY music.

Cheers,
Drew

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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: jhoyla 
Date:   2008-01-07 10:01

I think we can all agree that Barret is an excellent source of material for study, more so when studied with a great teacher.

For inspirational ideas in music, I don't look to Barret or even listen to great oboists. I listen to great singers, violinists and pianists. How I wish I could phrase like Thomas Quasthoff or Hillary Hahn!

The human ear is a "tuned-filter", uniquely equipped to hear the human voice. The better we "sing", whatever our instrument, the better we will sound and the more music we will make. Rubinstein said that making music requires technique, intelligence and heart in equal measure.

To the extent that Barret helps me achieve this ultimate goal, it is a wonderful tool and I am deeply grateful for the insights it provides.

J.

[removed a potentially misunderstood sentence - J]



Post Edited (2008-01-07 13:49)

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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: chrisoboe 
Date:   2008-01-07 14:57

amen. just because someone doesnt play the oboe, doesnt mean we cant learn something from them. i think the greatest disservice we can do to ourselves is to only listen to oboe players. there is SO much great music out there and so many great musicians doing wonderful things with it that the desire to only want to play a phrase like allan vogel or dick woodhams can get us a bit 'boxed in.' think of robert bloom, who used to place all the importance upon singing beautifully first and getting that out of the oboe, second.

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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: Bobo 
Date:   2008-01-07 15:13

"there are whole worlds of oboe playing out there to which we as americans remain ignorant. who was the last american oboe player to win an international competition?...2 americans this past year... is that the best we can do? i think not."

This is simply an ignorant statement...if anything the world of oboe playing is converging, that's what the i in idrs stands for. The fact that Klein and Izotov had their initial training elsewhere and then came here underscores that fact. I don't have a list of Fox-Gillet winners but I'd guess at least half of them have been american educated. Every year at IDRS, many of the rest of the world's finest players show up to play. Also, do you know for a fact that French and German oboists don't use Barret and Brod? I'd be surprised since those were European gentlemen of the 19th century. Did they (figuratively speaking) leave Europe with Tabuteau, Andraud and Gillet? I'd be very surprised, but maybe a European oboist out there can lend some insight into what's being used in conservatories across the pond these days?

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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: jhoyla 
Date:   2008-01-07 15:34

I don't know about conservatory training. However, Associated Board Grade VIII Oboe is quite a high standard, achievable by gifted high-school students in 10-12th grade.

My teacher (William Dudderidge of Liverpool, UK) started me off on the Hinke studies, and then the Ferling 48 which are freely available from the idrs website (as someone posted previously).

I downloaded them all and went through them again, recently, and it was like coming home :-).

You can see the full Associated Board Oboe syllabus here:

http://www.abrsm.org/resources/oboeSyllabusComplete08.pdf

J.

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 No Subject
Author: A.U.K 
Date:   2008-01-07 15:42





Post Edited (2008-11-20 20:22)

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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: chrisoboe 
Date:   2008-01-07 15:55

i think you're quite right about the styles becoming more universal, which is all the more reason that we should get the ideas of "right and wrong" out of our heads for something as subjective as music. perhaps what i said earlier was in error. when i was talking about international competitions, i was thinking along the lines of the competitions in geneva, munich, tokyo, etc. admittedly there are many europeans entering these, but the jury is always made up of a mix of all nationalities. so if someone as american as alex klein can win there, why arent other americans out there doing the same?

i do not think of barret as obsolete in the slightest. in the first six articulation studies alone barret gives us as oboists an idea of the multitude of character that can be expected of us to portray convincingly. my only concern is the mentality that there is only one correct way to play a piece of music or orchestral excerpt. i believe that this mentality has closed us off to a broader world of playing. just because someone doesnt like the sound or inflections of heinz holliger does not mean that he has nothing to say through his interpretations. someone said in an earlier post that 'music is information that must be conveyed in a proper way' and thats a pretty accurate statement. but if one is in the habit of trying to float a phrase exactly as john mack did, then why even bother playing? john mack already said it! why speak his (or anyone else's) musical thoughts instead of our own?



Post Edited (2008-01-07 16:01)

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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: chrisoboe 
Date:   2008-01-07 16:00

it is interesting that gillet is the norm, perhaps that is another reason that europeans have such fast fingers and tongues? while we americans focus on barret (predominately cavatinas, etc.) and thus are more tone based? food for thought.

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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: kdrew922 
Date:   2008-01-07 16:06

A.U.K wrote:

> surely every study method has
> something to offer...each player gets something different from
> each method...

> Of course some will prefer some study method over
> another...very much as we like some pieces more than others...

> Regards and running for cover


100% agreed! Best to play a little of everything. No need to run for cover.

Honestly, so long as they play a variety of styles, I don't care what method my students use. I'll teach from whatever keeps them interested and gets them practicing. After all, they're going to encounter the same basic technical difficulties in whatever music they play.

The way I see it, my responsibility is to take whatever repertoire they're playing at the moment, and use it as a tool to teach them analytical techniques and practice habits that will enable them to teach themselves how to solve whatever new problems they may encounter. After all, there's only so much that a teacher can correct in one hour per week. The students who succeed are the ones who learn to critique themselves at home.

The choice of a specific etude or solo piece is more about guiding them toward music that will expose weaknesses in their playing.

Cheers,
Drew



Post Edited (2008-01-07 16:42)

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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: Bobo 
Date:   2008-01-07 17:56

I would love to hear from an American conservatory trained oboist whether the Gillet Etudes are being used in the US. I've got to believe they are. All of the various French series of etudes are historical in nature, each one building on the previous ones to capture advances in musical demands. According to an IDRS article by Laila Storch (quote below), this was true of Gillet as well, who composed his etudes because he felt that the demands of the then new music were stretching the technical skills inherent in the traditional etudes of Brod, Barret, etc. Anyway, Ferling played to the marked tempos is pretty darned fast, I'd say. I'd recommend the Silvestrini Etudes for the truly ambitious!! As for tongueing speed, maybe they're faster in Europe or not - I've heard some people speculate it's related to the heavier use of the tongue in many continental languages! Also, the competitions you're referring to are not strictly oboe competitions are they? So it's once in a blue moon someone like an Alex Klein comes along and actually wins one of those things for the oboe crowd, regardless of nationality? I'd say the Fox-Gillet is a better measure of things. But on your point that music is not a rigid thing, I certainly agree.

Quote:

When Gillet composed the Studies in the early part of this century, it was to help his students to be prepared to meet the difficulties being encountered in the new music of the time. Many of the compositions of Debussy, Ravel and Dukas with their increased use of the upper register of the oboe, contain passages which present a challenge to this day. As Gillet says in his dedication:

"The studies given heretofore in my class are old in form although they possess real value, but they no longer meet the requirements of the perfecting work that the continuous progress of modern music calls for."

If during the first part of this century many oboists entered the professional field without a thorough preparation of the Gillet Studies, now eighty years after their appearance, we have long since reached a point where they must be considered an integral part of every student's program of study.


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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: chrisoboe 
Date:   2008-01-07 20:14

yeah i think you are right about the competitions not being held every year. the geneva concours seems to change every year (last year was clarinet and string trio or something like that), the tokyo competition is held every 3 years (but this is an actual strictly oboe competition), and there are others like the new york oboe competition and the isle of wright, etc.

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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: Dutchy 
Date:   2008-01-08 04:22

I didn't even know that Gillet wrote etudes. People mention Barret and Ferling all the time, but this is the first I've heard of Gillet etudes.

Maybe I just wasn't paying attention? [grin]

How are they, in terms of difficulty? Are we talking Extremely Advanced here? Now that I go looking for it, there's a ton of stuff by him available on sheetmusicplus. Which one of them are we referring to here?



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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: Bobo 
Date:   2008-01-08 15:18

They're called:

Études pour L'Enseignement Supérieur du Hautbois



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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: hautbois 
Date:   2008-01-08 16:01

You might be interested in the Bozza Dix-Huit Etudes. It was one of my earliest etude books, though I could only play a fraction of them at the time. They range from haunting and melodic to inscrutible, with a dose here and there of an extrapolation of an orchestral excerpt (note the second etude is an extended version of one of the difficult portions of Daphnes and Chloe). Along the lines of the Brod type of etude, I always found those in Lamotte's Dix Huit etudes (it seemes to be a popular name) for oboe or saxophone enjoyable, though there is a limited range of technical demands. I found the Singer and the Gillet more tedious; though there is something to be said for the discipline developed if one works hard on them. The Vade Mecum of course includes the Barret Grande Etudes along with a variety of orchestral excerpts. But for orchestral excerpts I would recommend the series (I think it might be up to volumn VII at this point) of complete orchestral parts on CD (available in many places -- mine were purchased from Jeanne), or other excerpt books which give more extended excerpts. Because of copyright protection, availability of 20th century music is more limited. Sellner's Method was also favored by first teacher, though I have not heard many others recommending it. Some of the short exercises are very winning.

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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: Dutchy 
Date:   2008-01-08 17:52

Thanks for the info, guys. I will definitely check it all out.

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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: chrisoboe 
Date:   2008-01-08 23:10

another set of etudes worth checking out are the verroust 24 etudes melodiques (op. 65, vol 1 &2 if you want to get technical). in the opening pages it says that he intends them to be used as introductory etudes to the ferling 48 which, in verroust's opinion, students are exposed to much too early in their musical lives. great for beginning to intermediate students or those getting back into oboe playing.

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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: Bobo 
Date:   2008-01-09 16:28

Has anyone ever heard of/played from "Holliger: Studien zum Spielen Neuer Musik für Oboe"...? Wonder what it's like.

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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: HautboisJJ 
Date:   2008-01-10 13:09

Chris, do you know on which website where i can get a copy of the Verroust? I am really having a lot of trouble on some of the Ferling studies that i am doing right now, and i figure that might help a great deal, so i am quite curious. Thanks!

Howard

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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: Dutchy 
Date:   2008-01-10 18:42

Music44 has them. Vol. 1.

Vol. 2.



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 Re: Is Barret Obsolete?
Author: chrisoboe 
Date:   2008-01-10 22:51

it comes in two different volumes, sadly. i purchased mine through trevco (www.trevcomusic.com), but i am sure if you googled the title you could find other options as well. hope this helps.

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