 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2024-09-03 01:22
To be honest, I'm not sure anyone reading on this forum will find this very useful, but maybe this shows how far affordable bass clarinets have come:
For about 2 years, with varying availability, Thomann have offered their own brand "BCL-C" bass clarinets in both wood and "composite", which appears to be quite similar to the Royal MAX's synthetic material, but more on that later. I've been eyeing this instrument for a while and now I finally ordered one.
I currently play the Leblanc 430S Low C, built around 1990 and found it had a few issues - can such a cheap instrument really beat it? The answer would be yes, actually, even if a wooden Instrument has that special grenadilla timbre (if there is any such thing!)
It was surprising to see not only does the BCL-C have decent keywork, that's relatively well set up (and there way quieter than on my older instrument), the intonation seems excellent. My only complaint here would be low E, which tends to be a little flat - but otherwise, I really couldn't find a faulty note, or at least I didn't get the impressiom, that a higher end instrument would significantly do better in that department. Notably, larger intervals where you land anywhere above long b seemes to be quite effortless. Im general, I couldn't fault the register mechanism, but the straight register key is a bit of a worse idea than the offset "Selmer style" one present on a few newer instruments.
Speaking about instrument design, I really didn't get what this one tries to copy, while the thumb key arrangement seems to look like a Yamaha, that little (rh) pinky key normally reserved for low D gives us a low Db/C#. Weird!
Pad seating seems good, a few adjustment tweaks were necessary, but all the important screws turn easily, while the post screws and key hinges where tight enough.
Regarding it's sound, I don't want to express my opinion with too many words. All I can say is my fiancee (who is a musician) liked it better than the Leblanc, said it was louder and more direct, but if you ask me, I just enjoy having a good clarion and above. The instrument is just quite easy to play, pushes back a little, but for my kind of playing, I like that a lot
But let's talk about the elephant in the room - is this instrument really "composite"? And does it anything have to do with the Max? Well, as far as I can tell, the material seems really different from all the (chinese) ABS or Ebonite instruments I've seen so far. It has a quite distinct, rigid feel and overall, the instrument is actually quite heavy, or at least about 0,5kg heavier than my Leblanc. It's hard to imagine there's suddenly two "composite" makers in China now, but who knows.
You'll find an instrument looking like one on alibaba, and they make different instruments, even a composite eefer. My wooden eefer probably has been made by the same factory.
Will I keep it? Difficult question, depending on how much better the Max is! Unfortumately I cannot tell right now, but for 2750€, including 19% VAT, here in Germany (you guys do the converting on your own ), it's basically a steal.
Knowing that the Max is 4500€ which at least better keywork (design), it's really hard to say what would be the better choice. In fact, I'm also struggling right now as to whether I should keep the BCL-C, or wait a bit and get the Max.
Here's a link to 2 excerpts and some Bach, maybe it helps getting a better impression. It's only recorded with my smartphone and there's a few little mistakes, but you get the idea.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/16IIut7VxBZPx5qJQExbF0AXFSnE0wHxT
Best regards,
Christian
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2024-09-05 16:18
Thank you Christian for your most extensive review, very much appreciated.
It would also bee interesting to see how this Thomann bass compares to the coming Backun Alpha, though the latter low C version with silvered keys here in Europe is roughly 1.100 € more expensive (currently €3,899.00, at least at https://sax-on.com/ in Spain).
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2024-09-05 17:55
You're welcome! Always love tinkering with new stuff. I just happened to talk with Adams Music in NL, as they're a large retailer of Backun clarinets They also charge 3900€ for the Alpha (S/P, I assume) so that's probably the retail price for Europe.
RE the Thomann and its competition, I came to the conclusion to try and get the best out of my Leblanc, as there's still some adjustments and pads that could be optimized, BUT switch to a synthetic instrument eventually, as I've come to the conclusion that my wooden instrument, even without any particular "logistics" involved, gets out of adjustment pretty easily. Can't wait to get my hands on the Alpha!
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-09-05 19:12
The Thomann BCL-C is basically the same price as the Ridenour bass.... but with much superior key work by the looks of it.
If it didn't take a lot of fiddling about to get it regulated, then all in all I'd say it's a winner.
Thank you Kalashnikirby for offering your review.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2024-09-05 20:57
My take is: The keywork should indeed have to be superior to a Ridenour. A few years back, I tried chinese bass with the very same thumb key arrangement and wasn't too impressed with it, so assuming the Ridenour shares these qualities, you'd be better off with the Thomann. In particular, that awful low D to C flex you can feel in the thumb keys is even a tad better than on my Leblanc, so I'd suppose
Spring tensions, as I've said, need to be lowered, but other than no biggies.... toneholes looked very clean, key heights were fine.
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Author: smokindok
Date: 2024-09-05 22:01
Thank you for the helpful review, Christian. And congratulations on the engagement!
John
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2024-09-05 22:47
I'm disappointed they made what you'd expect the RH front low D touch into an extra low C#/Db touch when having a RH low D touch there is a far more useful thing.
Consistency is clearly not a thing with low C basses, even ones from the same maker (yes, I'm looking at you, Selmer!).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: HANGARDUDE
Date: 2024-09-06 04:59
It is perhaps interesting to note that the BCL-C is rather similar to the Wilmington Bcl from MusicMedicas well as a certain Morrél (NOT to be confused with Moresky) bass clarinet I tried at Clarinetfest 2024- all of them have the same wood composite body as well as the RH Thumb keywork as well as the same bell vent hole placement. The only difference is that the Morrél had a Buffet-style neck bend & angle.
That said, the demo Morrél bass at Clarinetfest was out of adjustment by the time I tested it near the end of the event- all I could say is it sounded decent (I play a modified Selmer Privilege myself). I also tried the Polaris which is full wooden version of the Royal Max there, but forgot to try the Max.
If all 3 of these instruments all came from the same (presumably) Chinese factory, it would appear that there are now 2 generic "synthetic" Low C basses in China that play rather decently.
Wilmington Bass by MusicMedic:
https://www.musicmedic.com/the-wilmington-bass-clarinet-low-c.html
Morrél Bass (RH Thumb Keys not shown): https://www.woodwindboutique.com/product/morr-l-mcl-341s-wood-composite-low-c-bass-clarinet/165?cp=true&sa=false&sbp=false&q=false&category_id=2
Josh
Post Edited (2024-09-11 15:18)
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2024-09-06 11:18
@smokindok: Thanks for the warm words! We're really excited!
@Chris P: I'm wondering if that's a real deal breaker. Boehm basses don't have to deal with 4 thumb key like german ones, but still, I'm missing a sensible low D . Im fact, playing chromatically to low C, like in the Khachaturian excerpt, it's easy to get confused
@HANGARDUDE: It would seem this design spawned a number of different names selling the exact same thing... clarinet dropshipping?
There's a "Leslie Craven" bass in GB, should be the same instrument, too. What really surprises me is that at least in the US, it's not that much cheaper than the max.
Also, by wooden max you're probably refering to the Polaris? How'd that compare to our synthetic bass?
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Author: ebonite
Date: 2024-09-06 12:05
with the weird placement of the low Db/C# key, is it possible to play Eb to Db legato?
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2024-09-06 12:14
yep, just use the Db/C# thumb key
Every low note except for the Eb has a second touchpiece/ thumb key of some sorts on this bass
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-09-06 12:51
From what I can gather, all these Chinese basses play pretty uniformly and really quite well, the only real differences being in the key work designs of which there appear to be many, even from instruments that most likely come from the same factory. I imagine these differing key works have more to do with the retailer's desire to offer the appearance of distinction in "their product", than the actual manufactures pursuit of the superior design . For anybody buying one, I would say focus on the key work design and the price differences in relation to that.... a relationship which is rather inconsistent it would appear . For example, this Thomann BCL-C has RH C# in the pinky cluster rather than the normal D. But that said, at least presumably the LH pinky D works, and the low D rod doesn't lift up in the guide like its trying to get a better look at what it's doing, as is the case with a certain similarity priced bass mentioned previously.😅
Chris P recently set up what is probably the cheapest Chinese-made Low C on the European market and did not give it an unfavorable final verdict as I recall.
The budget Chinese bass options are a worthy topic, given that they are the only ones which likely fall within a lot of people budget and they seem to be quite decent instruments once sorted out mechanically and properly regulated.( This last seems to be the most significant issue/consideration they tend to come with.)
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: kilo
Date: 2024-09-06 14:56
Quote:
Well, as far as I can tell, the material seems really different from all the (chinese) ABS or Ebonite instruments I've seen so far. It has a quite distinct, rigid feel and overall, the instrument is actually quite heavy, or at least about 0,5kg heavier than my Leblanc.
I noticed the weight of the composite as soon as I picked up the shipping crate the Royal Global Max came in! I did some quick comparisons:
The upper joint of the plastic Yamaha is 17¼" long and weighs 29 oz.
The upper joint of the wooden Selmer Model 30 is 15¾" long and weighs 30 oz.
The upper joint on the composite Max is also 15¾" long and weighs 39 oz.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-09-07 11:46
I'm just glad to see composite instruments coming out that coherently reflect the manufacturing cost difference vs wood. Buffet just couldn't do this with their ' Greenline ', because their recipe contains the ashes of Benny Goodman.( It's good to know you're getting what you pay for😅)
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2024-09-08 22:52
@kilo:
now that's interesting, I weighed the BCL-C's upper joint at 997g ( about 35 oz). The Leblanc's upper joint weighs 961g (about 34oz)
Not sure what that says about the max, but perhaps one shouldn't jump to any conclusions regarding the similarities between the max and BCL-C. Either the composite is formulated differentl, the keywork is heavier, or the max has a thicker walled body... too many factory coming into play here.
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Author: tdufka
Date: 2024-09-10 01:22
Wall thickness and density are probably what is at play with the sound of the Max and other composite bass clarinets. Listening to recordings of the Backun Alpha or other synthetic bass clarinets seem to indicate that a less dense material will result in a lighter, more brilliant sound with less depth.
Not necessarily a bad characteristic, but different than wood, which is what the composite basses are trying to emulate.
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Author: HANGARDUDE
Date: 2024-09-11 15:20
Hi Christian,
Yes, I meant the Royal Polaris when I mentioned the wooden version of the Max(I've updated on my previous post), and it's obviously a markedly better horn than the Morrél bass. That said, I tested the Polaris somewhat earlier during Clarinetfest, so it probably wasn't as beaten up as the Morrèl at the end of the event. I also tried the Firebird as well which I preferred over the Polaris, but I still like my own modified Selmer Privilege the best.
That Leslie Craven BC3 bass looks virtually identical to the Morrél instrument I tried. Perhaps it's the same "generic"(non-propietory) Chinese instrument?
Josh
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2024-09-11 22:03
Hi Josh,
thanks for the clarification.
From my understanding, that new chinese composite Bass runs under a few different names, but they should all be the same instrument. Notably, you can contact the supplier on alibaba and negotiate if you feel like getting 10 of these...
Now from my experience, most vendors won't modify these instruments a lot, or at all, but I wouldn't be brave enough to source a instrument directly from china just to prove a point. If you talk with someone at Thomann, they wouldn't deny these are from china, but it's unclear to what extent these are checked and regulated.
Anyways, I'll be sending BCL-C back, since I came to the conclusion that the 430S is a fine instrument, even though the BCL-C offers better intonation. I can still recommend that chinese bass and personally feel it is better than these other chines basses, but I'm not sure how often I'll get to play the bass clarinet anyways... thinking of selling the 430S as I'm playing way more french horn these days.
It was an interesting experience, as I've been eying the Thomann for way too long. If you need a cheap bass, get it.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-09-12 11:26
We now have Royal Global who's product demonstrates the capabilities of Chinese craftsmanship. I also understand from a reliable source, that the Chinese have no problems with making key work changes for a customer... and at no extra charge, or even on the basis of a significant order being placed. Compare this with Selmer's reticence to update their key work, or Buffet's seeming indifference to achieving consistency in their product, and I can't help but wonder where all this is going. There's no resting on laurels until you have them.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: tdufka
Date: 2024-09-18 09:22
"Compare this with Selmer's reticence to update their key work, or Buffet's seeming indifference to achieving consistency in their product, and I can't help but wonder where all this is going. There's no resting on laurels until you have them."
And now we have the Backun bass clarinets coming into play which have been very well thought out and incorporate many of the best features from the "big 2" plus Morrie Backun's improvements. That he can have a professional level bass produced at 1/2 the price of European instruments and at similar or better quality speaks well for the future of the instrument.
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2024-09-18 21:35
I can only agree with what you both wrote
@Julian: I've strongly suspected that RZ clarinets have their keywork made by this (or similar) factories, as RZ don't seem to have the capacities to make their own, yet keep bringing up new models, like a freshly revised (Selmer-like?) bass clarinet.
To add insult to the injury: I've been testing my eefer, which is exactly like the Thomann, but under a different name against an actual RC, a quite recent model even.
No kidding: They play almost exactly the same, with the same intonation issues, resistance etc. I actually found the keywork on the chinese one to be a bit more ergonomic, though the Buffet might have more depth to its sound.
I was a bit shocked to see the Thomann one receive so few stars (as of now), but I suspect these people haven't realized most eefers are a pain. Perhaps there's another thread write about this instrument, but either way, it's clear the Chinese have been stepping up their game.
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Author: Kalashnikirby
Date: 2024-09-20 00:35
Micke,
my bad, even wrote something in that thread.
My eb is a "Lechgold" branded one, sold by Kirstein - an online retailer similar to Thomann. No doubt they're the same horns.
To clarify: It's not that the Instrument has actual intonation issues, but I've struggled with the altissimo e and f and anything above these notes, putting the blame on the instrument, when it was just me and a bad setup. It even turned out that the original barrels are just fine, as a special Schwenk+Seggelke barrel in combination with a Playnick mouthpiece didn't really help much, but using a much harder reed with the Vandoren B40 I have solved the issue more or less.
But I digress.
In short: The Thomann is probably a very good buy and my main criticism would be the weird keywork layout.
I'll update this thread if I ever get to test the alpha bass or the royal max, but for in the next months, I'll be messing around with other instruments 😅
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