 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-05-29 14:54
Hey to all,
Recently I have been trying to actually string some notes together to create something that doesn't even come close yet to music but.. still there is some improvement.
Since this has the intended benefit of an increased MP to mouth ratio, I am starting to experience of "pain" in the upper lip (playing double lip).
So I started a small search for lip protection and quickly got lost.
So I am asking for some quidence between sigaret paper, silicon (sheet/tubes),parafin and maybe others and ofcourse dedicated protective gear. What is your experience..
What give the best overall protection, best comfort and what has the best cost/benefit balance (also important of course).
anyway.. any thoughts on the matter are highly appreciated.
Kind greats
Matthieu
Post Edited (2023-05-29 16:49)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2023-05-29 16:48
spikey1973 wrote:
> Since this has the intended benefit of an increased MP to mouth
> ratio, I am starting to experience of "pain" in the upper lip
> (playing double lip).
>
What do you mean by "increased MP to mouth ratio?"
Karl
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Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-05-29 16:53
haha,
yeah i admit, mea culpa, bad way of formulating this. i'm sorry...
I just meant to say I spend more time actually using the clarinet then just reading about it.
increased MP to mouth time ratio might have been better, but still needlessly complicated.
Kind greats
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-05-29 17:20
Hi Matthieu,
With double lip, it seems to be best to work up your time on the instrument really gradually so you can get your lip muscles strong. So ten minutes each day for a week, or whatever works for you, until your muscles are strong enough to manage more.
If you have a read at that dissertation that I send you by email, it explains it all in there.
(I sent Matthieu the original scanned pdf of Dr Batipaglia's these on the double lip embouchure from this page here: https://urresearch.rochester.edu/institutionalPublicationPublicView.action?institutionalItemId=35968.)
Jennifer
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Author: lydian
Date: 2023-05-29 18:22
Don’t play double lip. Put your teeth on the mouthpiece like everybody else.
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Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-05-29 18:28
Hey Jennifer,
Well I must admit, I only read diagonally through the advantages / disadvantages part.. it is a +100 pages so I am working on it.
But the part that you mentioned to gradually work up the time was actually read. But interpreted mostly, just as you say, as a time period to strengthen the muscles .
So far I had no muscle aches in the facial area, in which case a slow build up would definitely be necessary.
My reasoning for asking more information on practical experience with this topic is that upper lip Is basically clamped between upper incisors and the MP , who's is being pushed upwards by my thumb. This pressure although not strong is necessary but leaves a indentation / bruised part in my upper lip, and small damage of the mucosa by teeth edge which is narrow.
(Not as sharp as when I was young, but still). By adding some sort of cover over the teeth one could widen that edge.. and lowering the local pressure on the lip.
Doing this would (IMHO) be beneficial right from the beginning, hence my qualification.
But please let me know if anyone disagrees with my reasoning.
Kind greats
Matthieu
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-05-29 18:39
Hi Matthieu,
I completely get what you mean, and there will be others on here who are way more qualified than me to comment.
I think the idea is that we grip the mp with only our lips and our teeth are not involved. There needs to be a fair amount of muscle development to do that.
I think that what Ken Legace said was that you should grip the mp. Then gently lift the top teeth off the mp, so they are then not placing pressure on your top lip. That's what I am doing it does seem to work.
The caveat is that it does take a lot of strenth in the top lip to do it.
I don't get pain in my top lip, but after a long period of playing, my top lip just stops being able to grip at all, and sometimes I just have to stop suddenly. It can even be four bars from the end of a piece of music, and I just have to stop, as my top lip has just given up.
There are a ton of people on here who are much much more experienced that me and will be able to explain. There are also lots and lots of other threads about this if you search. Or you can email and I am really happy to explain more off list.
I've just been playing for 5 years, and double lip for two years.
There are a lot of people who play single lip, and a lot who play double lip. It's a totally personal choice and will depend on works for you. There is no pressure from anyone else to do one or the other, if one way feels really right to you.
Jennifer
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Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-05-29 19:06
Hey Jennifer,
Thank you for your detailed reply! Your explanation does make sense, as said I only read diagonally through the dissertation so far. But I will dive in deeper. Afterwards I will also dive in deeper into the threads here on the on double lip topic.
Be right back.. will only take me a year of 2 but it is worth it
Kind regards
Matthieu.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2023-05-29 19:51
lydian wrote:
> Don’t play double lip. Put your teeth on the mouthpiece like
> everybody else.
Don't be such a grump. Lots of players play double lip. It just takes time to develop. Even some top clarinetists explicitly model their single lip embouchures to mimic double lip (which presupposes they've worked with double lip at least enough to know how it feels). And at least one major New York teacher (Opperman) himself played and taught his students, to play double lip.
Karl
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Author: lydian
Date: 2023-05-29 21:12
Outliers. It's just plain wrong to encourage beginners to use double lip. Millions of kids learn single lip every year because it works for everyone who has front teeth. Everybody I know who ever played double switched back to single unless they had some sort of dental issue.
Just doing my part to set people on the right path. But it obviously never works. Double lip beginners are by far the most stubborn people on the planet. It's like a religion to them. Yes the vibrations feel funny at first. But that's a good thing. Please give the traditional embouchure a chance. Your upper lip, altissimo, intonation and pitch control will thank me, eventually.
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Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-05-29 22:28
Quote:
Just doing my part to set people on the right path. But it obviously never works. Double lip beginners are by far the most stubborn people on the planet. It's like a religion to them.
/Quote:..
Well, I can only admitt to be one of those "most stubborn people".. But it definately is not anything close to a religion. Additionally, I am definately an outlier, but think about this.. without outliers no bell curve
Quote:
Yes the vibrations feel funny at first. But that's a good thing. Please give the traditional embouchure a chance. Your upper lip, altissimo, intonation and pitch control will thank me, eventually.
/Quote..
My "choice" has nothing to do with vibrations feeling funny or not.
and yeah.. my upperlip is far from being gratefull at this moment.
but am his boss, he's not mine.
The "famous" words of Meatloaf come to mind me here:
I wasn't build for comfort, I was build for speed.
and for the rest..I don't plan to play in an orchestra or such..
Just wanna have fun creating some "clarinetish" sounds (you might call it noise ) and I am (currently) preferring the lower registers.. and for now, I have noticed a benefit there (IMHO). I could be wrong, but then time will tell, and then I will definately remember your words.
But for now and more importantly, I did NOT open this topic to discuss single vs double lip, cause it seems to me that both sides can master the religious side of things.. So lets leave the wrongness of this choice be for now and come back on the topic I opened this thread for an answer on:
.. how to protect your lips in general, upper lip speccifically, specifically practical experience.
Kind greats
Matthieu
Post Edited (2023-05-29 22:41)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2023-05-29 23:43
One thing that I ported over from single lip when I "converted" was a rubber patch on the top of the mouthpiece beak. When I had my teeth on the beak, the patch served to protect my teeth from the pain that the vibrations caused (not just temporary discomfort - it was like the pain of having a tooth drilled without Novocain, radiating through the root). But even after I switched, I found that the extra give in the beak's surface was more comfortable and prevented my lip from sliding around. I use the thick black Runyon pads or the D'Addario ones that are practically the same.
Karl
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Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-05-30 00:00
Hey Karl,
Intresting, I have one of those patches on the MP I got with my instrument (crap MP) now I have my fobes MP, have not added a patch yet, as I thought that is a single lip thing, but guess not.
I have a sheet of the 0.8 mm B&G A10L pads..
looking around I only found D'addario's that were also 0.8mm, is 0.8 considered thick?
Kind greats
Matthieu
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-05-30 00:06
Hi Matthieu,
I think that with me it helps that I have my clarinet on a claritie sling rather than pushing up with my thumb against my mouth. There is no upward pressure on my clarinet, and it just sits at the right height. It makes it easy for me to avoid putting downward pressure with my top teeth, if that makes sense.
This is the sling
https://www.wwr.co.uk/daniel-s-claritie-clarinet-support-that-takes-all-the-weight-off-the-thumb-aclarinetsupport.html
I can play "no-hands" with this sling, even double lip, because the clarinet is firmly anchored at the bottom, even when I am standing.
Hope that helps.
Jennifer
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2023-05-30 00:34
spikey1973 wrote:
> I have a sheet of the 0.8 mm B&G A10L pads..
> looking around I only found D'addario's that were also 0.8mm,
> is 0.8 considered thick?
Yes, the 0.8 mm ones are what I use. There are 0.5 mm Yamaha patches that as I remember have a harder surface than the D'Addarios. 0.3" feels to me like putting Scotch tape on the mouthpiece, and they're hard-surfaced, too. The hard surface makes them more slippery in my experience.
You could experiment with EZO denture pads, which I have used from time to time on my lower teeth with certain mouthpieces that seemed to need more pressure to control (and which I eventually discarded). I've never had much luck getting them to stay on my uppers. They're made of gauze impregnated with beeswax, which becomes flexible in the temperature of your mouth. You just use a short piece of the pad, warm it in your mouth, then fold it over your teeth. It will mold much as an athletic dental guard does.
Karl
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Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-05-30 00:35
@ Jennifer,
Hmmm that is an interesting construction indeed.
Doesn't it interfere with the abdominal breathing?
Anyone else have experience with this?
@ Karl
oke then I will give those a try, easy enough to pull off again if need be,
The denture pad seems interesting, a bit similar to paraffine sheets i saw online, but easier obtainable and less chemical the paraffine, althoughtthat seems to be oke too.
Kind greats
Matthieu
Post Edited (2023-05-30 02:04)
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Author: Ed
Date: 2023-05-30 05:07
Hang in there and work to get your lips muscles stronger. Double lip works very well. I know a good number of double lip players.
If in doubt about the results, listen to Harold Wright, who was one of the greatest players ever.
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2023-05-30 05:48
lydian wrote:
> Outliers. It's just plain wrong to encourage beginners to use
> double lip. Millions of kids learn single lip every year
> because it works for everyone who has front teeth. Everybody I
> know who ever played double switched back to single unless they
> had some sort of dental issue.
>
> Just doing my part to set people on the right path. But it
> obviously never works. Double lip beginners are by far the most
> stubborn people on the planet. It's like a religion to them.
> Yes the vibrations feel funny at first. But that's a good
> thing. Please give the traditional embouchure a chance. Your
> upper lip, altissimo, intonation and pitch control will thank
> me, eventually.
With all due respect, please dial back the rhetoric on this. Double lip and single are both legitmate approaches and can compliment each other well. There are (and have been) world class players (all over the world) using double, particularly in France. Many of the very best American players used it during much of the 20th Century.
I start most of my beginners double lip and spend a fraction of the instructional time getting their embouchures set up well. Maybe that makes me a problem in your book, but many of these students go on to competive marching band, All-State band, music scholarships etc. - no problem.
Your take on this was common among American players a couple decades ago, but many of us know better now - things change for the better. Kind of like the "smile" approach to embouchure that was all the rage until people figured out why it was a bad idea - remember that one? I'm sorry to come on strong but I think your statement shouldn't go unchallenged. Nothing personal. I'm sure you and your students sound great! Nothing wrong with just playing single OR double as long as it works. PS I play both and often use double to enhance pitch control when needed.
Anders
Post Edited (2023-05-30 14:21)
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2023-05-30 18:18
Matthieu, there indeed is an embouchure "school" involving upward pressure with the r.h. thumb, against the mouth. However, I don't think it's too common, and a much simpler, straight forward and more wide spread approach is what also Jennifer refers to above - with only the lips making the pressure around the mouthpiece.
Though not an issue for you as a beginner, and probably not for more advanced players either, I would still like to add that a drawback with an embouchure dependent on upward pressure from the thumb is that it would make any "acrobatic" fingerings involving both hands on the keys of the upper joint impossible (while resting the bell on the knees). As an example, a throat g#-a trill is a lot easier and faster by keeping the g#-key down with your l.h. index finger, while moving the a-key with your r.h. index finger (and a superfast version would be alternating your r.h. 1+2 fingers on that a-key  ). I know, I'm drifting far away off topic...
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-05-30 21:50
Thank you Anders and Micke.
I'm also an adult learner and have been chatting to Matthieu to try to help offlist. It's really good to have expert input to be sure we're heading the right way.
I see what you mean about the fingering challenges.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2023-05-31 00:14
Paul Globus wrote:
> The fundamental question to Mr. Matthieu is why switch to DL?
I'm not sure he said he was switching, just that he was playing with a dl embouchure. He can clarify that himself. But he has already told us that he isn't looking for opinions about dl, that he's already made that decision for the time being.
Karl
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Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-05-31 00:43
Hello to all,
At first, thanks for everyone taking time to respond.
Second, as karl tries to say..
I am not switching to DL, I am just starting and starting with DL and yes I have my reasons for this decision, but since this isn't the topic
(and because it is and will probably always be an impossible discussion to end)
I am not going to debate that in this thread.
The thread was meant, as the title says, to get information on how to best protect our lips (lower and upper), whether playing SL or DL, but assuming DL.
Both technique and material wise.
So for now I want to thank Jennifer, Karl, Ed, Micke that has discussed the topic constructively.
@ Micke and Jennifer:
yeah I am reading just now this part in the dissertation, an approach I wasn't familiar with, but seems to be important one and I will definately take that up.
I have ordered a Kooiman Etudes 3 thumbrest to be able to keep the instrument more stable and will soon try to construct a Clarinetie like construction to make sure I can use proper fingering and lip techniques without pressing the instrument up with the thumb.
Tomorrow morning will have my first lesson and I am curious about the first contact.. specifically about the DL part, a bit anqious now really, but that is oke.
Anyway i'd better get the instrument warmed up again this evening.. but it is 22:39 now so maybe I should eat some first, since I just got home from work.
anyway.great evening to you all.
Kind greats
Matthieu.
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-05-31 19:10
I believe that Tom Ridenour has some good YouTube tutorial videos on double lip embouchure.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2023-05-31 19:45
Matthieu,
While your topic speaks only of "(upper) lip protection" - you mentioned "upper and lower lips" in your most recent post.
This topic was recently discussed in another thread...but floral "tape" can be an effective and cheap option to help protect the lips. Simply fold a short piece over the teeth (once it is warmed by the body, it forms well around the teeth) I'm not certain how this would help the top lip, but I know from experience that it can help the bottom lip. I once had a deformation of my lower teeth - where they formed a painfully sharp point. I scheduled to have the problem fixed at the dentist, but in the meantime, I used floral tape. Worked great!
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
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Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2023-05-31 23:35
Hi Matthieu,
I really do recommend Tom Ridenour's YouTube videos . He may not look it, but this guy is one of the great clarinet student/ educational battlefield commanders ,not to mention one of the greatest genius clarinet designers in the world .
His videos on DL embouchure were inspired to offer the best advice to learners and save them unnecessary grief .
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
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Author: spikey1973
Date: 2023-05-31 23:42
@ Julian:
Ah thanks,I have watched already a few of Tom's video's but not on DL yet..so I will have a search for it. I generally like his videos.
@ Fuzzy:
Oh sorry if this comes over unclear, but what I mean with "(upper) lip protection", is that you can read it either as "lip protection" and "upper lip protection".so meaning general protection with anemphasis on the upper lip.
Unfortunatly, I am not entirely certain what you mean with this, I googled it.. and a paper like tape came up.
something like this:
https://www.amazon.nl/Benodigdheden-Bloemstukken-Bloemendraad-Boeketstengels-Bloemenambachten/dp/B0BQBQ7LJY/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=floral+tape&qid=1685562067&sr=8-5
kind greats
Matthieu
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2023-06-01 00:41
spikey1973 wrote:
> @ Julian:
>
> Ah thanks,I have watched already a few of Tom's video's but not
> on DL yet..so I will have a search for it. I generally like his
> videos.
Tom most often uses the term "French Embouchure". Also look for the videos where he discussed Harold Wright's embouchure. He was a famous double lip player.
Anders
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2023-06-25 18:27
I dropped in on this forum after not visiting for many years and have been concerned to see so much focus on 'double-lip'.
In truth I know not one single top-end player in the UK who uses it. I have noticed a tendency amongst inexperienced players to see some new or resurrected pathway as a possible holy grail and this thread seems to reveal it!
My advice to students and particularly amateur players would be to observe how the majority of first-rate players choose to play and don't be distracted by a few exceptions. In addition if you hear someone seeming to talk authoritatively but they make an awful sound themselves you have your answer! There are a lot of examples on YouTube, including some names mentioned in this thread!
My playing history is one of training at the Royal College of Music where I won the Thurston Prize for clarinet. I have played with most of the BBC orchestras, Royal Liverpool Philharmonic, Royal Opera House Covent Garden and Bournemouth Symphony. I am now 67 and I don't recall any colleagues even considering double lip.
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