 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2023-06-18 18:04
I'm watching a video on YouTube of the Staatskapelle Dresden playing the Rachmaninov 2nd symphony. The clarinetist is quite good-sounding, and as I watched I noticed (for no special reason) that he was using what looks like a Vandoren Optimum ligature. But something seemed odd about it until I realized that it was inverted. I don't see inverted Optimums anywhere, including on the Vandoren website.
Does anyone here use an Optimum this way? Is this player just turning a standard VD Optimum around, or does such a VD ligature exist somewhere surreptitiously?
Karl
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2023-06-18 19:39
Karl:
The video your saw clearly took place in Australia where driving, toilet water flushing, and yes ligature placement are all backwards.
Joking aside, I have no idea why this was the case and trust sufficient visual cues had you correctly identifying a Vandoren Optimum, and not a Vandoren M/O ligature being used.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2023-06-18 19:45
Attachment: clarinet-vienna.png (228k)
I've seen M/O ligs in photos (on vendor sites and on Vandoren's site). They look quite different, and I'm pretty sure it looked like an Optimum (with the V cut out of the side I could see. Here's a screenshot.
The thing is is, the screw seems to be on the wrong side (most of the time they're on the righthand side of the mouthpiece so right-handed players can turn them with their right hand). That the screw points to the left (I think - the image in the video is a little unclear) makes me think it's a standard ligature turned backward.
Karl
Post Edited (2023-06-18 19:50)
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Author: Slowoldman
Date: 2023-06-18 20:01
That's exactly what it looks like (compared to my own Optimum).
That would of course put the pressure plate on the top of the mouthpiece (the side away from the reed).
Why? Weird.
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2023-06-18 20:37
As Steve Jobs once didn’t say, “you’re holding it wrong.”
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2023-06-18 20:48
When I sit down later to practice, I'll give it a try and see what it feels like. I'm not sure, either, what you'd need to do if anything about the pressure plate(s).
Karl
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2023-06-18 21:13
Maybe of interest, the 2nd clarinetist is using an Optimum but in the traditional orientation.
I'm pretty sure based on the orchestra's list of musicians and a couple of other videos I found when I looked him up, that the clarinetist is Robert Oberaigner. I found him on Facebook and have messaged him to ask about the ligature. Maybe he'll reply.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-06-18 22:35
The idea (one of them anyway) behind the Optimum design is that the "weighted termini" add resonance to the reed's vibrations........so you'd want them on the reed side. The Rovner Platinum is actually the best version of this design and has a remarkable open sound even when secured down rather tightly. I've inverted the Rovner before and find that it holds most of its characteristic sound inverted only losing a small percentage of its attributes that way.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2023-06-18 23:17
Paul Aviles wrote:
> The idea (one of them anyway) behind the Optimum design is that
> the "weighted termini" add resonance to the reed's
> vibrations........so you'd want them on the reed side.
Well, apparently, Oberaigner (if that's who the clarinetist is), doesn't agree if he's using a standard Optimum and turning it around. And he sounds quite good.
I'm not really interested in debating whether inverting an Optimum (or any other screw(s) on the bottom ligature) is good, bad or indifferent. I'm just curious if that's what he's doing. It looks like it is from the video.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-06-19 01:32
That is what he is doing according to the screen shot. The difference, to which I alluded is nominal. I have tried ligatures that are just plain heavy, but that doesn't seem to be the key to what makes this design work.........still a bit of a mystery to me. It would be great to get some input from the designers of the Optimum and the Platinum.
Though not the point of the query I realize
I do recall that there is another product that has a similar claim which is that weighty bar that can be attached to most screw ligatures and it protrudes down across, and remains in contact with the barrel. This is the Klangbogen by Reed Geek. I believe somewhere we talked about these products in one post.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2023-06-19 03:37
So, I spent a little time experimenting earlier this afternoon. The result was interesting. Turning the Optimum around resulted in a perfectly well-focused sound and a very comfortable free-blowing response. I won't compare it either to the same ligature used as intended or to the ligature I normally use. But it turns out that the inverted Optimum is in fact a perfectly workable option. I didn't try the three plates in what became the back of the ligature - there was one already mounted that I had used the last time I used the ligature and I just left it there.
Karl
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2023-06-19 04:03
I just ran the same experiment since the Optimum is my "daily driver" and I was sitting here during a break in my teaching day with my clarinet right next to me.
Yes, it works to reverse the ligature. It still keeps the same firm grip, but the sound felt a little more constricted. I'm guessing it doesn't sound any different.
Maybe this clarinetist is just left handed and either doesn't feel or doesn't mind the trade-off in response - or maybe a different plate - or no plate - would be advantageous in the reverse position. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Anders
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Author: Ed
Date: 2023-06-19 05:24
Hard to tell, but it almost looks as if perhaps the pressure plate was removed. It may just be the resolution or angle of the pic.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2023-06-19 05:39
Oh kdk, just look what you've started
I tried the inverted and normal positions for my German Optimum (for the record, using the four raised bumps plate) on my Gleichweit mouthpieces with the Classic German Legeres. There is no appreciable difference to the response or sound.
Without the plate the ligature is WAY too big. You have to fill the space with something (the plate has a raised crescent shaped spine that has a groove that slips over the "screw" of the Optimum).
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2023-06-19 08:46
Paul Aviles wrote:
>
> Without the plate the ligature is WAY too big. You have to
> fill the space with something (the plate has a raised crescent
> shaped spine that has a groove that slips over the "screw" of
> the Optimum).
>
I hate to admit that I played with this a bit more and took out the plate. It did seem to respond a bit better in the inverted position without the plate - and the ligature still fit just fine.
I could of done some long tones or answered an email but I chose to be silly instead!
Anders
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Author: johnwesley
Date: 2023-06-20 00:57
I've never tried my Optimum "backwards", but have experimented with countless others ( the "H", several BGs, Olegature, Vandoren leather, classic Leblanc "L", etc., etc., etc.) and noticed negligible if any difference. To me that shows the ligature is meant to hold the reed in place with little if any influence on sound. I know this will set off a firestorm of opinions and I will acquiesce to those with way more experience, however I just like ligs that look cool. My favorite right now is an ancient Selmer Magnitone. Looks terrific. Love the Olegature too except for it's bulkiness.
Post Edited (2023-06-20 17:23)
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Author: Ed
Date: 2023-06-21 02:53
"My favorite right now is an ancient Selmer Magnitone"
I always thought those were cool. I love the look- stylish yet minimalist. My issue with using them is that if you try to reposition the mouthpiece or remove it to swab, you are likely to end up with a handful of reed.
The vintage ones are pretty pricey, but you can get a newer reproduction
https://www.virtuosityboston.com/rigotti-flexitone-ligature.html
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Author: Pokenerd
Date: 2023-06-21 08:55
I’ve seen Corrado Giuffredi also play with an inverted gold optimum ligature backwards. Always expected it as something to do with how the legere european cut reeds
I have yet to try inverted optimums too scared to damage them
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Author: kilo
Date: 2023-06-21 12:56
Quote:
To me that shows the ligature is meant to hold the reed in place with little if any influence on sound. I know this will set off a firestorm...
That's not a firestorm – it's a round of applause!
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Author: donald
Date: 2023-06-22 11:25
I tried it on my alto sax today, worked perfectly fine, no evidence of any improvement in sound/response. Altissimo notes slightly easier to hit, but less body in the tone (of altissimo), other than that no significant difference.
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Author: DougR
Date: 2023-06-25 02:49
I think this is one of those "YMMV" things. If you notice a difference, great, go for it. I use an Optimum on my bass, but my repair guy lined it internally with very thin sheet cork, which seems to focus and darken the tone a bit. (Or at least, I THINK it does.) I don't know that ligature material is as crucial on basses as on the soprano clarinets, but ... YMMV! (Your Mileage May Vary, as they used to say in the car ads of old.)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2023-06-25 04:54
DougR wrote:
> I use an Optimum on my bass, but
> my repair guy lined it internally with very thin sheet cork,
> which seems to focus and darken the tone a bit. (Or at least, I
> THINK it does.)
I'm honestly curious about why he thought to do that. Is it something he routinely does? Did he expect that the cork to improve the tone?
Karl
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Author: donald
Date: 2023-06-25 05:11
In "the old days" I knew of several people playing both Charles Bay and Kaspar metal ligatures that had been "lined" like this. It seems to have gone out of style (a very fine Bass clarinet specialist I know had the same lined Bay for YEARS, like maybe 25 or 30 years, and found it difficult to replace when it finally died). One advantage is that the ligature holds better when switching between clarinets...
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Author: super20dan
Date: 2023-06-25 16:56
i have both bay types-the lined mutes the responce and i much prefer the unlined.
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Author: DougR
Date: 2023-06-25 17:20
Karl, in light of Donald's post, I'm assuming my repair guy had heard of that specific enhancement from an older repair guy, tried it on his own equipment and liked it, and started doing the adjustment on his customers' Optimums. The guy I've been studying with, a top-tier Broadway pit player, told me about it.
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