 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Rusty
Date: 2009-06-21 10:19
No I didn`t forget the link. I put the cute little poem in a reply in the post " The Most Helpful Hints You Have Had etc.""
Don`t know how it got here.
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Author: Bluesparkle
Date: 2009-06-21 13:34
Why is everyone always so against foot tapping? Is it the way it looks from the audience's perspective? Is it noisy? What?
I am always conscious of keeping my feet from tapping in a performance because that's what THEY say to do, but really, why? What's really wrong with getting your whole self into the music, feeling the tempo from head to toe?
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Author: Curinfinwe
Date: 2009-06-21 14:31
When I was about 2 years in to learning music, I ALWAYS tapped my foot when I played. Now though, 4 years later, I've internalized that external metronome that used to keep me steady. As I got more and more used to having a steady beat, I didn't need to tap anymore. Maybe people just need to have some sort of a beat, and most people do it externally. In your opinion, is foot tapping more rampant among students than professionals? I would think it would be.
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Author: glin
Date: 2009-06-21 15:27
A couple of reasons for not tapping:
1)Not reliable for a consistent tempo.
2)Looks bad from the audience point of view. Especially bad from a group ensemble. Next time you're at a concert, see if you can spot two people with conflicting foot tapping Tempos.
3)Locks you in to your own tempo; tends to seperate yourself from listening to what everyone else is doing.
It's ok to feel the tempo from 'head to toe', but if you must tap, I would keep it constrained to maybe toe tapping within the foot (less seen) than whole foot tapping. You could certainly get into the music with motion (like Sabine Meyer to a lesser degree).
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-06-21 15:53
My assertion here is that the rhythm that you are creating by starting a note on your clarinet and stopping that note on your clarinet has NOTHING to do with anything else. Being aware of this fact focuses your mind on what you're pumping out of the clarinet as opposed to your jiggling anatomy.....whatever you choose to jiggle. If you are just naturally moving in response to the sheer enjoyment of music, that is another issue entirely from that of establishing the rythm as musician.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: GBK
Date: 2009-06-21 16:05
I make all of my beginners tap their foot when they begin to learn their instruments. This way they can feel the beat kept by the foot and count in their heads as they play those notes. It might seem like alot of multi-tasking but at the beginning stages of learning it is one of the foundation techniques which must be acquired. Feeling that their foot goes "down" on the beats and "up" on the up-beats is a lot more effective than writing up and down arrows in the music.
The reason foot tapping works ISN'T because it lets them HEAR the beat. It's because it allows them to feel it with their bodies. It's about the physical sensation.
Students won't always play the tempo you're clapping, but they'll almost ALWAYS play the tempo THEY are tapping with their own feet.
Eventually it's easier for students to internalize the beat after they can keep a beat successfully while feeling it physically.
Then, as they progress with their rhythmic understanding they can dispense with the physical movement of foot tapping.
...GBK
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-06-21 16:34
Not that I necessarily recommend or have anything against tapping your foot, but all the "problems" posted by glin are just not problems with very good players.
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Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2009-06-21 17:55
I tap my foot, clap my hands, snap my fingers, sing, etc. when I give lessons. I certainly toe tap when I practice alone. In an ensemble, however, I don't. If someone behind me is tapping and I can hear or feel the rhythm, it annoys me.
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Author: Bluesparkle
Date: 2009-06-21 19:02
Back in my high school days, I was a drum major. Since then I've directed various groups at church (mostly kids), so I've done a small amount of conducting. I find that when I play clarinet, my internal rhythm is kept by my visualization of the conducting pattern (down, center, out, up if in 4). Sometimes I find that I am moving my clarinet ever so slightly in these directions when playing, rather than tapping. Other times, when the section has a few measures rest, my fingers start conducting in miniature patterns to keep me on track. It's strangely subconscious. What I cannot do is sit completely still.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2009-06-22 12:44
Foot tapping is especially gauche when you use your left foot.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Lee
Date: 2009-06-22 12:49
My teacher suggests that I not tap my foot because my playing rhythem will be correct but the foot seems to be unconnected and varies. Perhaps I'm just uncoordinated.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2009-06-22 13:11
"Foot tapping is especially gauche when you use your left foot."
But much more adroit when you use your right.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2009-06-22 14:43
After studying a lot of Alexander Technique I've also found that a tapping foot is the sign of a tense body and as we know, tension not only leads to exhaustion and possible injury but prevents you from making a nice sound, among other things.
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2009-06-22 15:17
"Foot tapping is especially gauche when you use your left foot."
Perhaps it makes you look sinister...
Chris
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Author: GeorgeL ★2017
Date: 2009-06-22 15:26
A true story in response to Bluesparkle's "Is it noisy?"
Community band playing Leroy Anderson's "Sandpaper Ballet." It was difficult to hear the sandpaper solo over the tapping feet of people who had rests during the solo.
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Author: blazian
Date: 2009-06-22 15:46
I've had the bad habit of tapping my heel whenever I do upbeats. It pretty bad at one point because the stage we performed on was hollow. I've managed to stop doing that (at least for now). BTW, it was my left heel doing that ![[right]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie8.gif) .
- Martin
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Author: kdk
Date: 2009-06-22 15:50
I think this often turns out to be true. Many good players' feet tend to tap either randomly or in unison with the note rhythm and don't mark a steady pulse. If your rhythm is accurate without the foot-tap (if it ain't broke), then tapping may be more of a distraction than a help (don't fix it).
Karl
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2009-06-22 17:20
Sometimes I tap slightly faster or slower than the beat, or take slightly longer pauses to see if I can throw off anyone around me during a rehearsal. Funny when it works!
Alexi
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Author: MoonPatrol
Date: 2009-06-22 17:31
I learned that tapping can be disruptive to other players. The inside the shoe tap is a good method. I will tap silently if I really feel like I need to. I do not belive tapping can lead to bad meter though.
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Author: allencole
Date: 2009-06-22 18:14
Thank you GBK!
I do the same thing with my students. It's a learning/practicing technique. I also encourage them to keep physical time when listening to music...not in a forced/conscious way, but in the relaxed, natural way that is instinctive to so many people.
Once the foot-tapping has done its work, it generally disappears as the student internalizes it. And actually, I've found their stability to be pretty good.
I think that foot tapping is also good (as an instructional/practice technique) because it helps players learn to separate pulse and rhythm.
Plus, most other common ways of timekeeping are impossible to do while playing a wind instrument. Likewise, I never have students clap rhythms, because your hands aren't free when you're playing. I also prefer that they recite rhythms vocally as da-da-da (as opposed to various beat numbers & elements) because they are going da-da-da into their instruments.
I see a lot said about intellectualizing a lot of this stuff, but I've found that students don't have to fully understand everything they're doing in order to get it right. They just need to ride the bronco until the bell rings. Sometimes real understanding actually FOLLOWS execution. This may be why tapping works well at early stages and then becomes unnecessary.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that anyone here is advocating any sort of noisy tapping in performance.
Allen Cole
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Author: GBK
Date: 2009-06-22 19:55
Allen - I guess that experienced and successful teachers think alike. ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
The only thing which I note that differs between us is that I want the students to recite the rhythms using numbers (ex: 1 &, 2 &, 3 e & a, 4) not just saying da-da, da-da, da-da-da-da, da .
All students who can quickly and consistently visualize where the downbeats fall, usually become very strong sight readers.
...GBK
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Author: Rusty
Date: 2009-06-22 20:28
Maybe it`s just an old foot but it gets tired raising the ball of the foot for a lot of tapping. So I stand the heal on a little black polystyrene block about 2cm thick. Stiil tap the ball of foot but all tiredness is gone no matter how long the piece of music.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2009-06-22 22:06
Morrigan wrote:
> After studying a lot of Alexander Technique I've also found
> that a tapping foot is the sign of a tense body and as we know,
> tension not only leads to exhaustion and possible injury
Interesting ... play Foggy Mountain Breakdown with me someday - I'll tap my foot, you keep yours still. Let's see who's tense (and whose ankle hurts from resisting the temptation to tap) and exhausted when we're done.
Absolutes aren't ...
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2009-06-23 06:47
Morrigan wrote:
>> Ever done any Alexander Technique Mark?>>
I have. And the relevance of your remark is?
Tony
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Author: allencole
Date: 2009-06-23 06:54
To GBK, regarding reciting numbers vs. da-da-da
To go into more detail, I like necessity to drive the process. Master Theory is set up so that when you write in beat #'s, the sounds will actually ape the rhythm correctly. (at least it will if you're silent on the rests)
I like to have three approaches available:
#1 - da-da-da If rhythm is done correctly this way, I pass it off.
#2 - beat numbers. Set up a pulse, think 1+2+3+4+ and read what you see when it occurs. My main problem is that students often put in the right rhythm saying the wrong things. Even so, I like this as a first line of attack against a rhythm that isn't instantly mastered.
#3 - Eliminate ties or turn rests into notes where needed. I LOVE watching them sweat over ties that cross barlines or rests that straddle barlines. They imagine so much horrible stuff, not realizing that all they have to do is feel beat 1 to solve the problem. It's better than having cable!
So I guess I'm somewhat in agreement with you on the beat-naming thing.
Another fun activity is to play them a CD and have them determine whether it's in 3 or 4. This also makes a great opporunity to expose them to our most feared mystery:
"Are we in 2 or are we in 4?"
More fun than a barrel of monkeys--or is my studio IN FACT a barrel of monkeys? <g>
Allen Cole
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2009-06-23 07:06
EEBaum wrote:
>> Think it was in reference to Mark's suggestion that a lack of foot tapping may make one tense.>>
I think what Mark said was possibly more subtle than that -- but I was really asking Morrigan.
Tony
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2009-06-23 10:02
I was just trying to suggest that foot tapping is usually a sign of tension elsewhere and Alexander Technique is brilliant, and was trying not to be so self-righteous like some but as usual, I'll just keep my opinions to myself because a public forum on clarinet playing clearly isn't the place for them.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2009-06-23 10:50
Morrigan wrote:
> Ever done any Alexander Technique Mark?
Yes. Played any bluegrass, Morrigan?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2009-06-23 10:53
Morrigan wrote:
> I was just trying to suggest that foot tapping is usually a
> sign of tension elsewhere and Alexander Technique is brilliant,
I don't know about "brilliant", but another tool. As is foot tapping - in context.
Too many absolutes flying about from people who should know better.
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Author: Brenda ★2017
Date: 2009-06-23 15:59
Lee - One of my students does that, too! She'll play a tune and her foot tapping will be way different than her playing. Don't know how she does it. Nice to know she's not alone. Trouble is, she hasn't internalized the rhythm yet and both rhythms are off, her foot and her playing. Probably some dance lessons or drum lessons would be better for her before continuing with clarinet, or maybe a change in career direction would be better. It seems that some little kids have rhythm internalized from birth!
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Author: Philcoman
Date: 2009-06-23 16:27
The music school I attended offered classes in Dalcroze Eurhythmics, which worked wonders for students who had trouble internalizing rhythm.
I, too , was taught to tap my foot when I first started, and managed to wean myself from it when I started playing with whole groups of people tapping their feet as they played.
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Author: Bluesparkle
Date: 2009-06-24 02:46
My now 10-year-old son, when he was 5, was able to sit down at a small drum set and get all hands and feet moving in coordination and produce a steady and complicated beat. Strangest thing I ever saw. It's more like instinct, really. We tell him he just "has the boogie in his butt." Some kids got it, some don't.
If I knew how to upload a video, I'd share one of him just messing around with his camera and drums.
Post Edited (2009-06-24 02:51)
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Author: allencole
Date: 2009-06-24 05:21
I've had two kids that would tap in 3/4 while working a piece in 6/8. Their phrasing sounded just fine, and their comprehension was very good. It took me a while to accept the fact that they were doing this.
There are definitely things that need to be watched for, but I like the overall benefits.
Allen Cole
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Author: Brenda ★2017
Date: 2009-06-24 14:40
I just checked out the Dalcroze Method which includes Eurythmics and found it interesting. The teaching centres aren't close to where I live, but the idea is fascinating. Through some music professionals here in my city I've learned about other local programs designed to teach rhythm and music basics to small children, but have to wait until my schedule slows down a little in order to sit in with the classes and to investigate accreditation with these organizations. I feel that with some imagination the basic ideas provided for small children could easily be adapted for older children.
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