 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ben
Date: 2003-02-15 02:31
Any suggestions as to a good recording of this piece (preferably on CD)?
I heard this piece was asked at the recent Phily audition. How common is it showing up on audition lists?
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Author: Ben
Date: 2003-02-15 03:21
BTW, through searching the internet it seems that both the Chicago Symphony and Orpheus are performing this piece this week. One would think some great orchestra would have recorded the piece and made it available by now.
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Author: Mitch K.
Date: 2003-02-15 05:02
This piece is becoming more and more common on audition lists. It was on the list for Florida West Coast Symphony a couple years ago, and I also believe it was on the National Symphony principal clarinet list a few years ago. I only know of one recent recording of this piece: Richmond Symphony. It's well done.
hasta,
Mitch King
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Author: nzdonald
Date: 2003-02-15 09:53
some English orchestra has recorded it, but i can't remember who. The high run in the middle of the solo was taken down an octave.
incidentally, i like to play this on the A clarinet- there is an article on this in a back issue of the Clarinet (symphonic corner- Ron deKant). I personally prefer to play on the A clarinet, switching to C clarinet for the middle section (making the top note in the run a high B), but the run can be played quite successfully on either A or Bflat clarinet. There have been past postings re fingering the very top notes in the run
donal
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Author: vin
Date: 2003-02-16 00:12
I have a dubbed version of just the clarinet variation with Marcellus and Cleveland. Amazing.
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Author: HAT
Date: 2003-02-16 01:14
Vin, yes that is an amazing performance. His ultra solid sense of rhythm really paid off for him. Not a bad sound either. . .l
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-04-30 16:44
I found a REALLY, REALLY good recording of this piece on iTunes, so I thought I'd share my find.
It's a 2003 recording by the Orquestra Ciudad de Granada, Josep Pons conducting (the record label is "harmonia mundi"). I'm assuming the clarinetist is José Luis Estellés, since according to the orchestra's website he's their current principal player and has been since the 1990s, apparently. If it is Estellés, he's incredible, because his performance in this recording is flawless! (at least to my ears, anyway)
I've heard two of the world's finest orchestras play this piece (London Symphony and Royal Philharmonic), but on the clarinet movement, at least, this recording beats them hands down. It sounds just like what the composer wrote! (which is no small feat with Ginastera)
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Author: Mark Cookson
Date: 2009-04-30 20:52
If you go here:
http://www.ridenourclarinetproducts.com/ACclarpg.html
there's a link at the bottom of the page to an impressive clip of Peter Wright playing the clarinet variation with the Jacksonville Symphony. I'm not sure whether the complete performance is available anywhere.
Mark
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2009-04-30 21:37
"...I also believe it was on the National Symphony principal clarinet list a few years ago." Close -- it was on assistant principal audition list; audition was won by Gene Mondie. NSO Principal Clarinet Loren Kitt has been in place since 1971 -- still going strong! I had the pleasure of playing second to Loren on this great piece; thank heaven the second part is a lot less daunting!
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-04-30 22:39
LarryBocaner wrote:
> thank heaven the
> second part is a lot less daunting!
I'll second that.... 
(pun intended--I'm playing 2nd this weekend on this piece)
Post Edited (2009-04-30 23:44)
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Author: Simon Aldrich
Date: 2009-05-01 01:44
Every time I've heard this live, the Eb player finishes the run. The other players in the orchestra don't even realize that the Eb takes over at a certain point.
If I ever have to play this piece I would play the lick on D clarinet (I have a part for this section on D clarinet). If memory serves there is 8 bars to switch to D clarinet.
My mouthpieces that sound best in orchestra are Zinner blanks. With Zinner's deep baffle, the ultra high notes pop out less easily. Sometimes for pieces in the extreme high register (like contemporary concertos), I have to use a shallow-baffle mouthpiece (like a non-13 M15).
------------------------------------------------------------
Simon Aldrich
Clarinet Faculty - McGill University
Principal Clarinet - Orchestre Metropolitain de Montreal
Principal Clarinet - Orchestre de l'Opera de Montreal
Artistic Director - Jeffery Summer Concerts
Clarinet - Nouvel Ensemble Moderne
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Author: Chris Hill
Date: 2009-05-01 02:29
I don't know if it's the particular instruments or the mouthpiece I'm playing, but I originally tried to do the run up to the high concert B on C clarinet, and I couldn't get the B to come out at all. I switched to the A clarinet, and the D came out just fine. I'm still scratching my head over that one.
Chris
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-05-01 04:02
vin said, "I have a dubbed version of just the clarinet variation with Marcellus and Cleveland. Amazing". I believe the piccolo takes over the run that goes up to written high C# for Bb clarinet in that performance. When I played it years ago I did it on the Bb clarinet and switched to Eb for the high run and had my second player begin the run since it starts too low for the Eb clarinet.
Most players do it on the A, going up to a high D, or on the C clarinet only going to a high B. I'm hoping I never have to do it again, which I probably won't be at my stage of my career. ESP
http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: vin
Date: 2009-05-01 14:13
Ed- In the version I have Marcellus takes it down the octave- there is no piccolo as far as I can tell because it's down the octave. I don't know whether that was him or Louis Lane (conductor) that made that decision.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-05-01 15:36
Thanks Vin, I must be thinking of someone else's recording. That does sound right now that you mention it. i know that was common practice at one time, using either the pic or the Eb clarinet. Now you're expected to be able to play it at an audition. ESP
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Author: donald
Date: 2009-05-01 20:41
The version i mentioned above was the Royal Philharmonic, and in addition to the run being altered there are bars of semiquavers (16ths) that have miraculously turned into bars of quavers. Hmmmmm
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-05-01 22:11
donald wrote:
> The version i mentioned above was the Royal Philharmonic, and
> in addition to the run being altered there are bars of
> semiquavers (16ths) that have miraculously turned into bars of
> quavers. Hmmmmm
That's the one. The other thing I noticed they (or the recording engineer) did is cover over some of the more awkward trills near the end with the harp. It also sounds to me like they used the eefer player to complete the run (which they manage to pull off quite well by applying strong metric accents to each tuplet, so they sound *intentionally* disconnected).
The London Symphony took "the run" down an octave and slowed the piece down.
Simon's suggestion of using D clarinet would solve *a lot* of problems in this piece, not the least of which are the tricky spots that come after the run, which are arguably a bigger deal than the run itself (since at least there are a few simple things you can do to make the run more manageable, like using an eefer or taking it down an octave).
For instance, the last little repeated 16th-note sextuplet pattern before the end seems really awkward on either a Bb or an A clarinet, with no really good fingering solution--at least, none that I could think of the few times I've tried playing that little passage off the 1st part for my own amusement (using "open D" on the A is the best I could think of). On a D clarinet, though, the whole thing would stay neatly in the clarion register without accidentals.
In fact, I think there's only one passage in the middle of the movement that you can't play on a D clarinet, which just happens to be the one little section that plays the best on a Bb. I believe there are sufficient rests to do a D-Bb-D double-swap to play that section, so I think that's a great solution (as long as you have access to a D clarinet, of course).
Of course, I'm playing 2nd on this, so I don't have to contend with these issues. Although the 2nd part is perfectly playable on Bb, I'm still playing this movement on the A clarinet because it makes the one little finger rip the 2nd clarinet does right before the soloist's big run sound much smoother (not to mention the added bonus of the whole thing's being much easier to play). 2nd clarinet doesn't do too much in this piece until the final movement (which I am also playing on the A for the same reasons I play mvt. IV on the A).
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Author: oliver sudden
Date: 2009-05-01 22:19
> the last little repeated 16th-note sextuplet
> pattern before the end seems really awkward on either a Bb or
> an A clarinet, with no really good fingering solution--at
> least, none that I could think of the few times I've tried
> playing that little passage off the 1st part for my own
> amusement
On the Bb, play the C# normally and finger the B Rx/oxx/xxx/F#. You need to humour it a bit but I think it's the least worst option.
I'm reliably informed that audition panels listen for the the clunk of a clarinet stand in between the bit with a low concert D and the bit where all hell breaks loose. Sweet, no?
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2009-05-02 02:08
Anybody can tell me where to get the part so I can figure out what you are all talking about?
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: pewd
Date: 2009-05-03 05:02
Sylvain,
check your email.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2009-05-03 13:52
I have a hand written part written out by Marcellus that is transposed for the A clarinet. He took the last part of the run down an octave. Now, I have not heard the recording of him doing it; I am just relaying what my teacher told me. My teacher, who was his student, got the part from him and I think I remember her telling me that he, Marcellus, advocated taking it down the octave...
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2009-05-03 16:00
Depends on the level of the group. If they need something to seperate one from another, that might be it.
Taking it down an octave seems to me like a slippery slope that I wouldn't want to go down.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
Post Edited (2009-05-03 16:31)
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Author: David Niethamer
Date: 2009-05-05 02:58
I'm the clarinetist on the Richmond Symphony recording and the co-author of the article in "The Clarinet."
When we made the recording, I played the part on A clarinet from the beginning to the end of the clarinet variation, after which I switched to Bb for the remainder of the piece. My colleague Marta Weldon and I collaborated on the article reflecting that performance. Marta played the last measure of the big run on Eb clarinet, and is credited in the CD booklet. That recording (Elan 2222) is available from Elan http://www.elanrecordings.com/santiago/santiago_2222.htm ($10.99) or Amazon ($11.99). Qualiton Imports has it for $9.75.
Since that time, I've acquired a C clarinet. I've played the Ginastera twice on C clarinet, although it isn't possible to play the entire variation on C clarinet - there's one phrase that goes too low. It is possible to switch to Bb clarinet for that one phrase, which is what I've done - plenty of rest on each side, and be sure to grease the mouthpiece cork a bit before the performance!
C clarinet takes the big run up to altissimo "B" - more manageable than altissimo "D"! If you are nice to the piccolo player, you can get him/her to enter really loudly on their "B" at the end of your run, and obliterate your last note, especially if, for some reason, it doesn't speak! At an audition, of course, that isn't a viable option.
The last phrase is a lot more playable on C clarinet - the top note is B on top of the first leger line, and the entire lick stays within the clarion register. On the RSO recording, playing it on A clarinet, I fingered all the altissimo "D"s, since I found the overblown open G fingering to be too flat and diffuse in tone quality. With enough takes, you can do anything!
A colleague played this for Ginastera, who told her he expected the clarinetist to transpose it to a more convenient clarinet from the printed Bb part - good enough for me.
Thanks to whoever pointed out Peter Wright's performance on a Ridenour C clarinet - very fine indeed. The Pons recording is also good - sounds like it may also be a C clarinet, though I only heard the 30 second iTunes sample, not the entire variation. Don't need yet another recording!! There's also an old Boston Symphony recording (Cioffi?) on LP - interesting.
I keep hoping I've played it for the last time!
David
David
niethamer@aol.com
http://members.aol.com/dbnclar1/index.html
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Author: asabene
Date: 2009-05-05 21:33
I agree that it really is quite impressive and with flawless technique, but the most difficult part (the section after the very high run), sounds a little funky to me, especially at the high-F# (on a Bb clarinet) octave drop to the F# below. Maybe it's because the tempo is so fast and the notes come by my ear too quickly to figure out what's going on, but regardless, I prefer listening to a perfectly clean rendition like Marcellus's. Generally, I have heard players not play the lower F# and only play the high one because that octave drop is just incredibly hard at such a quick tempo.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-05-06 03:45
asabene wrote:
> I agree that it really is quite impressive and with flawless
> technique, but the most difficult part (the section after the
> very high run), sounds a little funky to me, especially at the
> high-F# (on a Bb clarinet) octave drop to the F# below. Maybe it's
> because the tempo is so fast and the notes come by my ear too quickly
> to figure out what's going on, but regardless, I prefer listening to a
> perfectly clean rendition like Marcellus's.
I know what you're talking about (it's essentially a portamento over the octave drop). I actually rather like that little dash of wildness, though. I think it actually adds to the scherzando feel.
Having never heard Robert Marcellus's rendition, I can't comment on it (from what I've heard it's supposed to be good), but it is hard for me to imagine much musical benefit to playing this piece any more cleanly than in this Pons recording. There IS such a thing as sounding *too nice*, IMHO (especially with this piece, which was written in a kind of gutsy style to begin with).
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2009-05-06 05:28
Perfectly clean and musically inspired are not necessarily mutually exclusive, certainly as exemplified by Marcellus' playing of the clarinet variation from the Ginastera.
George Szell once commented, "It is perfectly legitimate to prefer the untidy, the arrhythmic, the hectic - but to mind, great music is not disorderliness."
I envy clarinetists who know and have prepared this extrordinary piece of music who then hear Marcellus' realization of it for the very first time.
Gregory Smith
http://www.gregory-smith.com
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Author: oliver sudden
Date: 2009-05-06 07:41
Where might this Marcellus recording be heard, I wonder? Has some kindly clarinettist somewhere uploaded it? (Would that be kosher for 2 minutes of a, what, 20-minute piece?) Is it perhaps buried deep in some compilation somewhere? Or is it lost until some kindly record company thinks they can make a buck out of it?
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-05-06 08:32
Gregory Smith wrote:
> George Szell once commented, "It is perfectly legitimate to
> prefer the untidy, the arrhythmic, the hectic - but to mind,
> great music is not disorderliness."
Well, the little spot in the Pons recording we're talking about I wouldn't call untidy, arrhythmic, hectic, or disorderly (indeed, the whole solo is impeccably played). What I'm talking about is more a question of how the notes are colored than it is anything else. Estelles (I'm assuming he's the clarinetist) gives the F# a slightly "squeaky" or grotesque quality through a very brief portamento (difficult to describe in words--you just have to hear it, I think).
"Funky" is actually a really good word to describe it--it's a little bit unusual, but at the same time appealing and musically interesting.
I had at one point tried looking for the Cleveland Orchestra's recording of this work so I could hear Marcellus's interpretation of the solo, but it looks like it may be out of print, as I wasn't able to find it.
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2009-05-09 02:35
It's a live & uncut performance from an aircheck in 1968 or so in Cleveland - Theo Alcantara cond.
The Pons/Grenada recording is insanely virtuosic but that one and only measure mentioned is simply not playable at the chosen tempo (he gets behind).
Gregory Smith
Post Edited (2009-05-09 02:53)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2009-05-09 03:06
On Itunes I see 2 recordings of the Ginastera
Pons conducting on one and the other one has Ben-Dor conducting the Israel Chamber Orchestra. It's not the LSO as that Orch. is on that same album but it plays Ginastera's Glosses on Themes of Pablo Casals, for orchestra, Op. 48
Don't like the Ben-Dor one , the Pons I do like. Would love to hear Marcellus doing it.
Too bad there aren't more recordings of it easily available.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
Post Edited (2009-05-09 03:11)
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2009-05-09 05:07
Marcellus' live performance recordings are easily located if one has a more than passing interest in seeking them out.
There have to be at the very most three degrees of separation between those who have some of them and those who do not.
Gregory Smith
http://www.gregory-smith.com
Post Edited (2009-05-09 05:16)
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