 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: Loree BF51
Date: 2012-03-03 15:37
In 2/12 a thread appeared on the Oboe BB asking about a vintage Loree English Horn. Within that thread a really lively discussion began about the origins of the so-called, American School of Oboe Playing and especially about the founder, Marcel Tabuteau, and the new style of reed scrape that he introduced. The discussion enlarged to include the playing of his students, as well as other outstanding players, and even included details about the various oboe manufacturers throughout the world, and reeds, too.
I would like to continue this discussion under this new subject and I hope that others will contribute to it, to keep it going.
One of my earlist memories of starting to play the oboe was buying the record, Philadelphia Orchestra - First Chair, with Tabuteau playing the Handel Concerto in g minor. I don't think I had actually heard it before on the radio, so it was the first time I ever, consciously, had heard Tabuteau. As I listened to the first note or two, I thought I was on the wrong track, as it sounded like a clarinet to me! I may not have been studying with Mr. Still yet, but I was very familiar with his sound and after I figured out I was on the correct track on the record, it was very obvious that there was a very different concept of tone production between them. I also noticed that Tabuteau started out many passages, if not all, with no vibrato at all. I later observed this characteristic in many popular singers, but not so much in classical singers, but please bare in mind, I was only about 13 at the time and wasn't all that experienced yet. And that was just an observation, not a criticism. Although Doris Day didn't sing the same reportoire as Elly Ameling, her vocal gifts are no less admirable, as far as I'm concerned.
So, this is my opening for this thread and it's a personal one and maybe a little offbeat, but so be it. Anything to just get started! Regards to everyone.
R. Still former student
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-03-03 19:55
What I've noticed when watching oboists in American orchestras is they generally have very poor posture - holding the oboe pointing very much downwards (like a lot of clarinet players) with the elbows held in and arched wrists. The cor player looked even more uncomfortable with such bad posture.
It made me laugh watching them playing Mahler during the 'Schalltrichter auf' sections when they tilted their heads right back but still retained the same reed angle in relation to their mouths instead of keeping their heads still but raising the oboe to make a more brash, rustic sound which is what Mahler wanted.
Compare the posture of American players with European players and you'll see exactly what I mean. Maybe the posture European players use looks strange to American players as the majority play with the oboe held up high with the elbows out and wrists cranked.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: oboesax
Date: 2012-03-03 21:11
My brother studied with R. Still. I recall listening to many recordings growing up. He was a big fan of Heinz Holliger's as a kid. At University I recall playing in the university wind ensemble next to the oboe professor, a former student of Tabeuteau. She had a very different sound than my brother, I recall, very "squawky", as I'd describe it, and I didn't like it at all.
Now that we have youtube, we can listen to sounds from around the globe, and I've listened to a number of oboe players. While there are players from Russia and Europe who seem to have this same squawky sound or even a trumpet-like sound (which I don't like) there are others such as Paula Oostenrjik who sound (at least when performing the Strauss concerto) much more like American oboe players. It seems to me that there is no longer a clear contrast between players in the USA and Europe, or at least that the differences are lessening.
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Author: Loree BF51
Date: 2012-03-04 04:32
Your observations are very interesting. Mr. Still's "System" began with the concept of the "Basic Position" where the oboe is held out at about a 45 degree angle or more from the body and the head is level, not pointing downward. The main reason for doing this, was to eliminate any constriction of the throat, which he said should be "slack", i.e.. not tense. Any of the videos of the CSO that Mr. Still is in, will show how he practiced what he preached. While I have noticed that the recent videos of the Berlin Philharmonic, for example, show their oboists holding their instruments high, too, I've also noticed the same thing on many of the young, American oboists who are shown on the youtube site, implying that his concept is getting around. Mr. Still also taught that the bottom of the tip of the tongue contacts the reed which accomplishes two things: it doesn't get stuck between the reed and the lower lip, and it also compensates for the reed tip being a little lower in the mouth. I remember that when he played the Mahler symphonies which required the instrument being held up very high, his oboe was at least parallel to the floor or even higher. Thank you for your contribution to this thread.
R. Still former student
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Author: pliscapoivre
Date: 2012-03-04 12:28
Holding the oboe a bit higher also helps the shoulders to stay relaxed, I've found. The arms do the work of holding up the instrument's weight, and the shoulders stay out of it as they should.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-03-04 13:16
There's a photo of Tabeuteau in the book titled "The Oboe" where he's playing with the posture that's adopted by many American orchestral players.
Copy&Paste this link: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Oboe-Yale-Musical-Instrument-Series/dp/0300100531/ref=sr_1_35?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1330870430&sr=1-35#_
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2012-03-04 13:17)
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Author: JRC
Date: 2012-03-04 13:58
Every person has different lip and teeth structure. Purely in the point of "best" position for oboe playing, every one should have different angle to hold the oboe (therefore the position of the reed with respect to lip and teeth structure). 45 degree for every one seem unscientific, un-natural, and simply another ignorant cult like concept.
How about dynamic range and staccato range? One or all of the American oboe cults discourages very short staccato, considering it less than musically tasteful, and also consider wide range of dynamic as less than musically tasteful. Such teaching, I believe, simply promote reducing the range of musical expression. It is not an accident that American oboe school did not produce notable oboe soloist.
I tend to believe that these peculiar tradition evolved from "dark" and "blending" sound. First of all, reeds to produce such tone doe not respond well to very short staccatos, neither accommodate wide dynamic range well. But their sound does blend well in orchestra setting, which does not demand wide range of expression as much as most solo works. I would say that American oboe shares some of the limitations in musical expression with the French Horn.
On the other hand, younger generation players in Europe and some in America are making similar sound that is a blend of old style reedy French sound and very dark German sound (even darker than American in a way). Today's French oboe masters and German masters use pretty much the same tone color. Extreme reedy sound is gone and Koch like German sound is gone. Most younger American players lucky enough to make the orchestra auditions, also use similar sound. I think that is a good compromise. Future of oboe in the world is brighter (I do not mean necessarily brighter sound but brighter future).
There are still large pockets of "old" American school players insisting cult like behaviors. We need not join the cult and believe in ridiculous ideas. We are just trying make music the best way we can. I do not appreciate pushy cult spreaders.
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Author: pliscapoivre
Date: 2012-03-04 22:15
JRC, while some of your statements here echo those I've made in earlier threads, please note that studying oboe in the US is in no way equivalent to joining a cult.
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Author: oboeagogo
Date: 2012-03-05 03:20
I believe Humbert Lucarelli to be a notable American soloist. He is well-respected around the world for beauty of tone, phrasing and musical line. And what is special about Maestro Lucarelli is that he has built a successful career as teacher, recitalist, SOLOIST and recording artist with integrity and a loving spirit. I am confident there are MANY American oboists would agree without hesitation.
Best,
oboeagogo
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2012-03-05 04:16
Isn't the whole 'cult' reference thing a bit inflammatory? I mean, many of us have benefitted greatly from a wide variety of teachers.
My own best teacher, a student of Tabuteau but much better known for his bari-sax skills, was a great man who taught ME to play the oboe in the MOST COMFORTABLE and PRODUCTIVE way; he gave me principles I use with my own students, but did not set a firm set of rules. He modeled a beautiful sound and demonstrated (which I needed) a relaxed approach. I sincerely doubt he 'followed' Tabuteau in various eccentricities. He did not subscribe to a 'school' but was known for his fantastic reed-making skills, and he taught LOTS of improvisation in that arena.
I do not have memories of a negative teacher or an oppressive one, so perhaps I am not fully qualified to offer my two cents. And I've also lived and worked overseas and had exposure to some wonderful European musicians. It seems to me that there is room for all of us. (I am probably the most ignorant of you all when it comes to 'the American School' so should leave this thread alone...)
Happy discussion!
GoodWinds
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Author: pliscapoivre
Date: 2012-03-05 10:27
Well said, GoodWinds! Let's keep the tone positive.
I'm very proud and fortunate to have studied with two outstanding American teachers, Mr. Richard Killmer and Mr. Ronald Roseman. Most teachers in all countries want to help their students to succeed in the profession. That, of course, does mean different things in different places. But the finest teachers, no matter where they are, also want their students to be independent thinkers who are open to learning opportunities whenever and wherever they may arise.
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Author: JRC
Date: 2012-03-05 14:05
Apologize for missing Humbert Lucarelli. For some reason, he registered in my brain as an European. Perhaps because he has never been identified as one of those American oboe cult members who would worship Marcel Tabuteau and long scrape reeds in every other breath.
Actually there is another great American trained oboist, Alex Klein who was born in Brazil but trained and built his musical career in the US. Perhaps the first and only American trained oboist to win the International Competition for Musical Performers in Geneva, Switzerland and other competitions in Europe. He has rare physiological condition called Focal Dystonia. He now lives in Brazil and is still active in international musical scene as a conductor, judging international oboe competition, teaching, and even performing. But he feels that American oboe community is discriminating against him for his disability. I am trying find more about the situation. Americans must cherish American trained oboist who made to the top not only in the US but also in Europe even if he did not subscribe to one of those American oboe cults.
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2012-03-05 16:15
the international world! My teacher was Josef Skufka, originally from Bavaria. I think my other teacher Martin Sterling had some Mediterranean heritage...
Both played in New York, and Martin at the NY metropolitan opera, 'way back when' students of Tabuteau were in demand. Joe also played in LA where he met Ron Fox, another mentor. Ron still plays/teaches in the San Diego area and keeps meticulous notes on cane, etc. Susan Barret has also encouraged me along the way.
As to their 'schools', Ron is (like me) a 'second generation Tabuteau student (I'm not sure who he studied with) and I don't know about Susan. The other two studied under Tabuteau.
If you've a great oboe player in your life, you're rich.
GoodWinds
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Author: Loree BF51
Date: 2012-03-05 16:53
On the contrary your input is worth at least 2 cents, maybe even a nickel! This is what I was hoping for, in terms of contribution. Could "bari-sax" possibly refer to the late, great Gerry Muligan?! Regards, Loree BF51
R. Still former student
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Author: Loree BF51
Date: 2012-03-05 16:59
Thank you for your contribution. I saw in the "Oboist's List" that Mr. Roseman has regrettably left us. I remember hearing him at Aspen, debuting a very difficult, new piece by Gui or something like that, and it was absolutely, "top drawer" Regards, Loree BF51
R. Still former student
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Author: JRC
Date: 2012-03-05 17:05
Susan studied with Mr. Josef Marx, who in turn studied with Leon Goossens. I also studied with Josef until I switched to physics. I think America has good prospect for producing good oboe players. 2nd and 3rd generation students of cult figures are opening their mind and teaching things that make more sense. Just listen to Wang at NY Phil, Izotov at Chicago, and Diaz at Met. I hear their open mind in musical expressions and producing tones much more receptive to music making.
We should just recognize practices of old cult schools and use common sense to accept or reject them and concentrate on music making. And spread our musical ideas, not just reed making details, complain about maker of different instruments, obsess about tones, holding instrument so many degrees from body.....
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2012-03-06 04:42
Neither of my teachers, both students of Tabuteau, were raving fans of his, although they were both pleased to have been under his tutelege. And they each had quite different approaches/styles!
I sometimes think the 'cult of personality' is a branch of our media culture and tendency to shove people onto pedestals. We should know better, that the Personalities we regard so highly (or lowly) are just people, too.
GoodWinds
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-03-06 10:50
Are there any prominent American players who don't play Lorees?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: JRC
Date: 2012-03-06 13:27
Pedro Diaz of Metropolitan just got Ludwig Frank made with one of those light colored tropical woods. Definitely fruitier and brighter tone than a typical Loree Americans love so much. Beautiful oboe indeed...
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2012-03-06 15:10
I'm not a Loree fan, but I'm not a prominent player, either. I've never played a Loree that 'sings' for me; have done well on Gordet ('the poor man's Laubin'), Marigaux, and Jarde.
GoodWinds
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Author: Loree BF51
Date: 2012-03-06 21:08
Needless duplication of next post. Sorry, the wifi server here is like a Conn oboe!
R. Still former student
Post Edited (2012-03-06 21:17)
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Author: Loree BF51
Date: 2012-03-06 21:12
Thank you for the info. Do tell us how the Marigaux compares to a Loree in terms of the sound, of course, but also in the way of weight and keywork, etc. Regards.
R. Still former student
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2012-03-06 21:42
I addressed the differences between my old Loree and Marigaux extensively on other threads.
The biggest differences is where I find the core sound originating: in the Loree the core came from the top joint and with my Marigaux is comes from the lower joint and bell.
The implication is thus ... the Loree was more reed reliant while the Marigaux is not. There is a more resistance in the Marigaux. As I played the Loree I heard the sound radiating from the upper joint quite clearly as if it was next to my ear. With the Marigaux .. the sound is in the bell radiating from me.
My Loree reeds had much more heart in relation to the back and windows. The reeds were always a challenge to make ... to achieve flexibility and core tone. The reeds I make for the Marigaux are very different: basically a spine with two clear channels towards the tip/blend. The heart is a shade darker in the channels. (Tip and blend the same). This very basic scrape gives a rich tone ... the sound it seems is built into the Marigaux. Please additionally, note... I have experimented extensively to find what works best with the Marigaux: 45mm staples, more round staple opening (Glotin) ... plus Dan Ross made a custon blade curve for me based upon my staple, shaper tip, tie, reed length, and oboe characteristics (my is a few cents flat). The gouge is quite excellent - producing reeds with great stability.
I find this to be true across all the Mariguaxs I have played.
I hope this is helpful.
Mark
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Author: Loree BF51
Date: 2012-03-06 21:48
Anybody know what happened to Rigoutat? I played one for a couple of years in High School and it was quite decent, but not nearly as good as my second Loree. We had a Rigoutat English Horn in Civic and the middle e was rather high, so in the Frank (Franck?) Symphony I got d flat-c-f- e1/4sharp-c... .! The sound was nice though. Regards.
R. Still former student
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Author: JRC
Date: 2012-03-06 22:24
I have a Rigoutat oboe, classic bore. Its top joint is open ring and middle joint is covered, made in 1960. I would not trade this with any other. It is sensitive to different reeds. Different reeds do make different sound. I can actually make my own sound. It also responds well to a wide range of articulation without resistance. I can express music the way I feel. I feel confident it will do what I want. It is like driving a sports car.
It responds well to dark sounding reed and also responds well to bright sounding reeds. I like its fruity natural sound which resonate the best with a little brighter side of the sound. I did not like some recently made Loree and Howarth I tried. They were not very unresponsive. Just about every reeds in stuck in it sounded the same... dark and silky. I guess most of my reeds were within the rage to produce the same tone. Reminded me of driving a Bonneville, comfortable smooth ride, don't even feel driving over a curve.
I believe Rigoutat also make different models to appeal to symphony and American players. I was told that they are similar to Loree and Howarth but not as dark as Marigaux. But I do not know that for sure.
Now I must admit that I am describing things that are very very small differences. But enough to make me feel differently. I can actually take any well made oboe and do well with it. I am just finicking here.
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2012-03-06 22:49
'finicking'
NEW VERB! I love it!
Unless you patent it quick, I'll start using it elsewhere.
Thanks!
GoodWinds
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Author: Loree BF51
Date: 2012-03-06 23:16
Thank you for this excellent contribution. Some of the younger viewers may never have heard of Rigoutat, but may play one in their school. In Driver Ed. in 1960 we drove Bonnevilles, which were very responsive and quick and also Buick 225 LeSabres, which were slow and pig-like. Regards.
R. Still former student
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Author: Loree BF51
Date: 2012-03-06 23:21
Super contribution! Information like this, might never surface otherwise. Were the other threads in the recent Loree EH thread, or were they much earlier ones that I might have missed? Regards.
R. Still former student
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Author: oboeagogo
Date: 2012-03-07 04:58
Maestro Lucarelli retired from playing a few years back but is still incredibly vibrant and very "Bert". Last I knew he played a Loree with the traditional bore. But that was, like I said, years ago. I saw him and several of his current students at a masterclass in NYC with Washington Barella this past summer. It was very nice to see several makes of oboes among the students including Howarth, Josef, Moennig. I am not sure what make of instrument he used right before he finished playing, and not disputing your claim, but I never knew him to play anything other than a Loree.
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Author: oboesax
Date: 2012-03-07 12:38
I'm not sure who would be included in "prominent" oboe players, but a number of the oboe players in the U.S. top military bands play on oboes other than Loree. I know that at least one of the principal oboe players uses a Howarth.
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Author: OboeDad
Date: 2012-03-07 19:57
Hello -
JRC mentioned Alex Klein, which I was very excited to see, because he was scheduled to play with the Coast Guard Band this Sunday in New London, CT.
However, I just learned that he has withdrawn from the concert.
http://www.uscg.mil/band/event_calendar.asp
Disappointedly,
- Paul
- P
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Author: Loree BF51
Date: 2012-03-07 21:25
When you say that there is more resistance in the Marigaux, I would infer from that, that the bore is smaller. Can that be true? Regards.
R. Still former student
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2012-03-08 23:47
First, let me clarify my introduction of the word 'cult' into these discussions when I quoted Nigel Clark's comment to me. I didn't take his meaning to be what we usually refer to as a Cult, a mystic, usually lunatic fringe, group so far outside the norm that decent people shy away from it, but rather as a reminder that Tabuteau had a profound effect on the American school and developed a sound quite different from any other style of playing at the time which, along with his phrasing style, is still held by many if not most American oboists as the model to aspire to. I took his comment as a gentle and humorous reminder that the world is a bigger place than Philadelphia.
I apologize if I have suggested Mr. Clark had any deeper intention by his remark.
That said, not only Bert Lucarelli and Alex Klein, but Robert Bloom, with his Bach Aria Group and Ralph Gomberg, who toured as a soloist after his retirement from Boston belong on the list of American soloists.
I also can't think of many players at all in this country (outside of violin players) who have made their reputations as soloists. It seems to me more of a European thing, though given the number of fine, unemployed other than freelance players in this country, more solo careers would be forthcoming...
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: Loree BF51
Date: 2012-03-10 17:01
Here, Here! or is it Hear, Hear! I can never remember. Regards.
R. Still former student
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Author: jeremyreeds
Date: 2012-03-11 15:04
Hello everyone, I am about to give my opinion on this subject, while running the risk of being virtually lynched. I am only going to be writing (talking) off the top of my mind, without any proof. I do not think that Maestro Tabuteau was the founder of any so-called American School of oboe playing; as a matter of fact, I think that he and his school are as American as the statue of Liberty, i.e., French!!! I am sure, from what I have read about Maestro Tabuteau, that he was a great teacher, who taught a great number of students of whom many became very successful and taught students who also became successful, and so on; a very prolific teacher of the French school. Why of the French school? Because I find it very difficult to believe that having been born in France, having studied in France, with French teachers, and having kept all the contact he kept during his stay in the United States with France as he did, and dying after retirement in France, could have taught anything different than what he learnt, in France.
What I think was really happening with Maestro Tabuteau, and all the other European/American, oboe players of the time, in the symphony orchestras of the United States, was the difficulty of keeping in tune at an A 440 hz. I beleive that the only other country playing at that tuning was England and its colonies (of the time, not to get into a political argument here), which also had been producing its own oboes, but thumb plate system (also called by some English system but which, as the present case, happens to be French).
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Author: jeremyreeds
Date: 2012-03-11 16:12
continue...
I think that Maestro Tabuteau, in trying to keep at the tuning of the orchestra that was/is in use in the United States, had to approach the problem from two different fronts. The first was to try to change the reeds so that they would play flatter, and second, to contact an oboe maker that would be willing to work with him on this issue. On the reed front he probably could make the scrape longer, find or modify different staples to experiment with, but eventually realizing that it would be a constant fight against the instrument. Therefore he probably needed help from the other front , which I suggest, came from the house of Loree (some market reasons may be involved here like e.g. Rigoutat had a good market in France, SML/Marigaux had a good market in the rest of Europe, and the one willing to invest in this new and big market was Loree).
After hearing a couple of the very few recordings of Maestro Tabuteau, I cannot say that he had a dark sound. He probably had a rounder sound than the typical sound of the oboe players of the time, something that came about from the reed/instrument experimentation that he had to keep, in order to maintain his position in an orchestra with a tuning of 440 hz. In other words, another one of the accomplishments of Maestro Tabuteau is the fact that for many years the preferred oboe in the United States has been Loree. This is starting to change little by little with globalization.
Jeremias
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Author: mschmidt
Date: 2012-03-12 20:53
The bore is more conical in the Marigaux--it ends up being wider at the bell. You can't put a Loree bell on a Marigaux!
Allan Vogel of the Los Angeles Chamber Orchestra played on Marigauxs. I say that in the past tense because you never know when one of these oboists might have changed their mind without your knowing it. He may still play Marigauxs. His reeds are different--sometimes I think that if I went back to the Marigaux, I'd try to make a different style of reed.
I took out my Marigaux yesterday after about a year of pretty much just playing on my Loree. It's still as I remember it--nice and velvety on the bottom end, kind of thin up top. The Loree has more color to the sound. I think the Loree has improved my reed-making skills, but that's hard to judge--anyone's reed-making skills are likely to improve with time, no matter what instrument they are playing.
Mike
Mike
Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore
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Author: mschmidt
Date: 2012-03-12 20:53
The bore is more conical in the Marigaux--it ends up being wider at the bell. You can't put a Loree bell on a Marigaux!
Allan Vogel of the Los Angeles Chamber Orchestra played on Marigauxs. I say that in the past tense because you never know when one of these oboists might have changed their mind without your knowing it. He may still play Marigauxs. His reeds are different--sometimes I think that if I went back to the Marigaux, I'd try to make a different style of reed.
I took out my Marigaux yesterday after about a year of pretty much just playing on my Loree. It's still as I remember it--nice and velvety on the bottom end, kind of thin up top. The Loree has more color to the sound. I think the Loree has improved my reed-making skills, but that's hard to judge--anyone's reed-making skills are likely to improve with time, no matter what instrument they are playing.
Mike
Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2012-03-14 01:50
I do not consider myself a student of the 'American' school. I've stated that my best teacher, a student of the very French Tabuteau, came from Bavaria, and had a Polish name. I taught oboe while living in Cyprus, and I did not teach 'the American' school, just good breathing and habits, trusting that the students would make use of the local reed-scrapes.
I don't find your comment inflammatory at all. MOST Americans, if I'm not mistaken, trace their heritage to Somewhere Else.
GoodWinds
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Author: Loree BF51
Date: 2012-03-17 15:19
You make some very interesting points. However, I feel that Tabuteau's sound is on the dark side, as I feel deLancie, H. Gomberg, and Mack are, too. I consider Bloom, R. Gomberg, Still, and J. Robinson, to have a noticebly brighter sound. I think Lifschey's sound is somewhere in between. I just finally obtained a replacement copy of Tabuteau's recording of the Mozart oboe quartet, K. 370 (not 307 as found on the old Universal edition!) and the oboe and two horns with strings, Divertimento, K. 271 and I will go and listen very carefully to it to see if the sound is dark, like I think it is. Regards.
R. Still former student
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The Clarinet Pages
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