 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2005-10-14 16:28
What is the tuning tendency when playing crescendos and decrescendos? Do we tend to go sharp or flat? Why? Any suggestions for correcting these tendencies? Are there certain registers or notes that are more susceptible.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2005-10-14 20:47
very interesting question, would much enjoy reading feedback from as many as possible on this one
Clemens oboe primer says that "every instrument has some notes slightly out of tune and must be adjusted ... but on fine instruments, adjustments are so slight (like all of us have very fine instruments, as if?!) ... some areas in playing range out of tune are ... low D down to low B-flat ... generally a bit flat ... (recommendation is) NOT tighten embouchure but slightly raise right thumb towards face ... area from top G to high C is slightly flat ... students tend to overdo embouchure tightening and play sharp here, (recommendation) boost air pressure instead ... also assume 90% notes we play are likely to be sharp so drop more jaw and/or right thumb to compensate"
with that in mind, and also bearing in mind i'm a renewbie, rebuilding an embouchure which is now in transition from very tight (playing very sharp) to loosening up (now able to centre mid-register notes much more easily) i'm finding some notes particularly troublesome
All my F's, especially upper, any fingering, are very unstable; top pipe B-C transition is ugly tonal change issue; G & G# are very sharp compared to F# which is quite easy to centre and upper octave F# is good too
Mid register notes easily centred are generally a lot harder to centre octave up, especially on 2nd octave key up
Also, now i'm practising both 'pitched pips' and sustained long tones to the tuner (to train ear to perfect pitch & train body to get it and hold it spot on), i'm finding a lot depends on which reed i'm using as to how much trouble i have generally for note ranges, or specifically for any particular note.
Some reeds do beautiful mid register but are unpredictable upstairs, and exactly which note they croak on varies reed to reed, some can do high E but not F, some can only do high D but not E-flat (and i have been able to get high G on one dream reed now dead, so it's not just me)
That now dead dream reed (weep for thee, dearly departed) also played A 440 spot on with very little effort, i swear it was beginner's luck in the scrape, have since sharpened knife several times, completely different blade!
When i was starting out, soft & med-soft reeds had nothing at all to give in dynamics, noticed an improvement on mediums but only able to get mf with a bit extra in reserve for ^ sfz boosts
At the moment i'm playing medium hard reeds with tips really thinned down, can't manage a proportionally thicker tip yet, so although the reed responds very well to fortissimo with a bit in reserve, the tips go into shock when trying to oomph sffz during sustained fortes. Meanwhile these reeds have a lovely sound in pp to mf range during domestic practice, which is plenty loud enough, but that disappears into a pipsqueak in the band room
Since i'm sure my body isn't trained enough to be consistent in any of these basic playing techniques, i'd be interested in feedback from more experienced and physically conditioned players in particular to learn what tuning and pitch challenges they continue to have on a regular basis
And, do american scrape reeds have different note range or dynamic challenges different from european or other scrape reeds?
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Author: GMac
Date: 2005-10-15 00:29
Unfortunately, it's very hard to say! It depends on a few things, for example...
Crescendos
- Some people will tend to go flat because they really relax the embouchure to let the reed vibrate as much as possible as they blow harder
- Some people tend to go sharp because they blow much more without loosening up the embouchure at all which causes the pitch to rise.
Decresendos
- Basically the opposite. Some people simply use too much embouchure pressure to mute vibrations, which in turn closes the opening and resonating space and consequently brings up the pitch.
- Alternatively, simply decreasing the air with no embouchure change can really bring down the pitch
The solution to all of this: Practice long tones!!! Do this with a tuner. Start the note triple piano, and crescendo to as loud as you can go, and then come back. Do this with a metronome (say at 80 or so) and every 2 clicks crescendo another dynamic level, and imagine 5 levels (1 being the softest and 5 being the loudest) so you go 1.2.3.4.5.4.3.2.1. and really listen to the pitch (and use the tuner as confirmation of what you're hearing).
Basically you need to find the right balance of support and embouchure, and you really should find a good teacher for this. There is no real substitue for someone actually watching and listening to what you're doing (and making sure that the reed is stable enough that you're not having to work ridiculously hard to get the results you want).
One thing to keep in mind, really really support when you're playing at any dynamic level, especially the softs. It's very easy to let down the support when trying to get soft, because it feels like this is the only way to get quieter, but this will cause pitch problems. You have to have the same support as you would at any dynamic but think of it more as a smaller airstream but just as much intensity/air speed. It also helps to think of blowing air at the top of your head. Try it and see what works for you!
Hope this helps...and hope I didn't confuse you!
Graham
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Author: sömeone
Date: 2005-10-15 03:57
Its basically summed up with what the both of you said...haha....
but the reeds i play on.....that's basically....the opposite?
well..my low register is usually sharp if i don't relax my embouchure enough, and my higher register will simply be good if i concentrate enough.
The altissimo is still terribly bad at times though....
I would say that it takes a combination of a good reed and good basics.
Anyways, i have been discussing this reed crow intonation thing with my teacher this lately, we know that the C in the reed crow is important for the american scrape reed, and once in his masterclasses with an American oboist, it was the base of his reed making that the reed crow C note is foremost essential for the good intonation of the oboe itself. But i don't see this as always true...so maybe it is only a fact with long scrapes? Or is it related to other factors? To get the C on the reed crow i will suffer enormous sharpness when i transfer it to the oboe.
GMac wrote:
> Unfortunately, it's very hard to say! It depends on a few
> things, for example...
>
> The solution to all of this: Practice long tones!!!
>
> One thing to keep in mind, really really support when you're
> playing at any dynamic level, especially the softs.
I think that is one very important concept over there.
Some of my problem notes are - -
Sharp and bright low G.
A very difficult to control high A, which i assume everyone has.
And the rest of it i think it ain't too bad, without the tuner beside. =p
But basically if you do not have a whole octave of out of tune notes it's basically ok! It's interesting how professionals are able to do it, playing in
perfect intonation with pieces like Le Tombeau De Couperin.
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Author: oboeblank
Date: 2005-10-15 07:46
I used to spend most of my time staring at a tuner while doing crescendos and diminuendos: that is very useful if you are playing with a piano, however impractical when playing with other humans playing instruments where every note has variable intonation.
Think of this; of all of the most wonderful oboe playing you have heard and start to think why is it beautiful. [?] Chances are, regardless of what you think of their tone, they are in tune, and that is makes it. Take for example two recorded performances of the Saint Paul Chamber Orchestra-or three-Tombeau, [or Pulcinella] and Barber Violin Concerto with Hilary Hahn. Kathy Greenback, who is a glorious player sounds wonderful on the first two recordings; while the Barber sounds like garbage. Diagnosis-she is severely out of tune on the Barber. A beautiful tone is an in tune tone.
Close your eyes and play the most gorgeous tone you can produce on the oboe. Look at your tuner, I can almost guarantee that it will be in tune, bang on 440! Now play the same note sharp, now flat, critique the tone. Chances are when you are sharp the tone is thin and reedy; flat, you probably sound tubby and soggy.
As far as crescendos and diminuendos our tone must not vacilate, to quote Mack. Easier said than done, but if you concentrate on keeping a beautiful tone, in the center and warm with ring and crescendo through that tone, or diminuendo through that tone, you should find yourself in a good place.
I think people would be surprised to know that a thin tip, and here I am talking about the tip of the tip, about a millimeter or less of very thin tip, all the way across the reed will help in bringing the upper register pitch up. If you, like I do keep the center of the tip thicker your upper register will be slightly flat-a couple of cents here and there. That is the harsh reality I deal with because I refuse to loose the added resistance a thicker tip gives me.
I was shocked when I went to see a major East Coast symphony and the venerable oboist walked out, sat down and play the most gorgeous A I have every heard. You can imagine that I was equally shocked when I found out that they did not use a tuner, and they did not have perfect pitch!
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Author: sömeone
Date: 2005-10-15 12:52
I can tune a note on A=440, but it doesnt necessarily have the tone i want, i can also adjust a reed and make it sound good, but the intonation wont necessarily be balanced, as in not in tune through out, a good A but not necessarily a perfect G, something like that, anyways:
http://idrs.colorado.edu/Publications/Journal/JNL4/oboe.html
This article helped me a lot on pitch. I guess again it depends on so many factors. But ultimately of course good intonation does equal to a good tone, somehow. You won't go wrong on tone once you start to follow the path of being sensitive to good intonation, but again, there must be quite an extensive understanding to what intonation represents.
Well you are right there Blank, but seriously, it's not always about 440, i mean, as long as the intonation is balanced, and always in tune (not in contrast) with the ensemble or piano or anything that goes together. The Berlin Philharmonic plays at an incredible 445, and they have the lushes strings ever, not to mention one of the most crazy and beautiful oboe sections in the world. I have recently heard their recording of Rossini's La Scala di Seta, conducted by Karajan, and it was mind boggling, non stop goosebumps. The oboe solo in the beginning and the infamous crazy double toungue solo was all through out amazing! The A is nothing but a tuning standard you know, although i must admit that all the fuss happens to me too, =p. I was completely drowned into hearing the first tuning note of the oboe everytime i attend a concert. Haha... I have heard Herbert Bloomstedt conduct the San Francisco Symphony performing Alpine Symphony, and i won't tell you that all notes were perfectly A=440, but it remains one of my best loved recordings, and oboe solo, with the American player (i assume) still a mystery to me.
oboeblank wrote:
> I used to spend most of my time staring at a tuner while doing
> crescendos and diminuendos: that is very useful if you are
> playing with a piano, however impractical when playing with
> other humans playing instruments where every note has variable
> intonation.
How does this logic? No it's not wrong, i just don't understand the description ,"impractical when playing with other humans playing instruments where every note has variable intonation." I mean i hear almost near perfect (quite perfect to me) intonation with the Chicago
Symphony's brass section everytime. And they play crescendos like no other orchestra in the world, musical wise i don't prefer them to the other giants but they are one of the top on my list.
> Think of this; of all of the most wonderful oboe playing you
> have heard and start to think why is it beautiful. [?] Chances
> are, regardless of what you think of their tone, they are in
> tune, and that is makes it. Take for example two recorded
> performances of the Saint Paul Chamber Orchestra-or
> three-Tombeau, [or Pulcinella] and Barber Violin Concerto with
> Hilary Hahn. Kathy Greenback, who is a glorious player sounds
> wonderful on the first two recordings; while the Barber sounds
> like garbage. Diagnosis-she is severely out of tune on the
> Barber. A beautiful tone is an in tune tone.
AGREE.
> Close your eyes and play the most gorgeous tone you can produce
> on the oboe. Look at your tuner, I can almost guarantee that it
> will be in tune, bang on 440! Now play the same note sharp,
> now flat, critique the tone. Chances are when you are sharp
> the tone is thin and reedy; flat, you probably sound tubby and
> soggy.
I think this is too subjective, but what i am sure is that your description is a
reasonably good one (cos that happened to me before), i think as long as the tone PROJECTS, it will be a good tone, if it ain't 440, then we adjust that, but it must in the end PROJECT. I can take out one of my bad reeds and play a perfect 440 A, but it will sound thin and will not project.
> As far as crescendos and diminuendos our tone must not
> vacilate, to quote Mack. Easier said than done, but if you
> concentrate on keeping a beautiful tone, in the center and warm
> with ring and crescendo through that tone, or diminuendo
> through that tone, you should find yourself in a good place.
I think Mack's playing is fabulous, but sometimes....i don't know...haha...He is sort of a tradition breaker in the American line of oboists right? From what i heard. His interpretations are new and very unique. Incredible intonation, but a tone which i do not favour..but alas an artist that we should all learn from. I do not prefer the authentic American sound (obviously). But his teachings are fabulous, and your quote above is something valuable that i'll keep in mind. Thanks! Good advice! I love John De Lancie and Alex Klein, but i must say that my exposure to American playing ain't too much to judge precisely.
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Author: d-oboe
Date: 2005-10-16 07:30
Wow! There is a lot of good opinions here! I will try to provide some *objective* advice, however.
Perhaps instead of asking what are *our* tendencies you should ask "what are *my* tendencies"? Tuning tendencies will vary between every player, and can vary somewhat between reeds.
The air that leaves the mouth is controlled through biting. (Bite is normally considered a "bad" word, but that's how the mouth works - up and down) Essentially, the amount of biting should be a RESULT OF the air coming out of the lungs. If there is 5 lbs. of air pressure leaving the lungs, the embouchure should match that.
If there is too much biting it means that the air is being trapped. This is a waste of energy.
Less biting is optimal in most cases, but requires strength, and more air pressure.
So now a bit more theory: the less biting that occurs the more flexible the tone, because the lips will control the reed (flexible) instead of the jaw (inflexible)
So now the ultimate question! How to correct those tuning problems? It should be needless to say, but according to the above principles...the answer is more air pressure. NOT MORE AIR. More air PRESSURE.
Chances are, doing this way you won't really do as much adjusting and tuning with your embouchure. You will most likely only need to do minute adjustments. And....you'll be able to, because you won't be biting as much, which means you have more flexibility! Hooray!
D
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Author: d-oboe
Date: 2005-10-16 13:07
Just to add...
I read that article, but he never seems to mention what should be going on in the players head while doing the exercises. I mean, the exercises are great, but he doesn't specifically state what each exercise is designed to fix. A very in depth article, but I think a little too complicated for everyday practice/playing situations.
Admittedly, I would *love* to be able to pick apart my playing like that, but really I think it is unnecessary to a point, and sometimes inhibiting to a player. The brain of the player is too involved, and the playing sounds micro-managed.
The word "pitch", to many people, opens up this complex world of blowing, mouth position, reeds, and maybe even karma. Oh and that's just fine, but playing in such a way will make a player perfect with a tuner, maybe even play perfectly in tune in ensemble....but where is the music?
To get anywhere and to enjoy the music....to play the darn stuff already (that's why we're all here aren't we?) it is important to practice in such a way as to *serve the music.*
Example: in a general practice day the student might normally divide their practicing into three. 1/3 on warmup and scales, 1/3 technical exercises and advanced long-tones, and 1/3 on solos, excerpts, ensemble music, warmdown...etc.
After playing their ensemble music, a student might note that they weren't getting the articulations right, or that the phrasing wasn't how they wanted it to be, or maybe that everything was out of tune.
The next practice session will definitely involve (you guessed it!) more work on playing solid tones - listening, and adjusting.
This way the student learns how to <i>hear</i> everything they play, and then apply it to music <i>which they are playing </i> . Much more useful than practicing an exercise just for the sake of playing an exercise.
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Author: oboeblank
Date: 2005-10-16 17:05
A couple points of clarification in response to 'someones' post.
I am using 440 as an arbitrary pitch standard. Of course the Berlin Philharmonic plays higher, as does the Montreal Symphony and when they play it is beautiful. Regardless of the pitch standard, if you play the most wonderful centered tone you can imagine you will be in tune; whether your pitch standard is 440 or 445.
My point of using a tuner was a little vague and I apologise. What I meant was that if you sit in front of your tuner you are training your eye to make a response to pitch and not your ear. We need to train our ear not eyes to play in tune. The other point I failed stress was that we must play in tune with others. If you play every note at 440 or what ever pitch standard this does not guarantee that everyone else in your ensemble is. The great orchestras play in tune, that is what distinguishes them as great orchestras; besides other things such as musicians and style etc... but if a player is locked into a rigid 44{?} pitch center that orchestra is going to sound out of tune. There are minute adjustments made to temper chords and intervals to make them sound in tune and ultimately part of a musical whole. We have all been in situations where we are called upon to play sharper or flater than we would like for the benefit of the groups intonation, and that flexibility comes from training your ear not eye.
I still stand by the statement: a beautiful tone is an in tune tone on the oboe. If you play notes and listen objectively to the tone you will know where certain note sit, either flat or sharp because of the 'colour' of the tone. Flabby is Flat, Shrill and thin Sharp; no matter what pitch standard you use.
Hope this offered some clarification.
I suspect the oboist was William Bennett on the recording of the Alpine Symphony with Bloomstedt and the San Francisco Symphony.
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2005-10-17 00:15
... so i'm infering from this discussion, redirect me if this is way off (like my practice today!) that a 'centred' oboe tone is in tune with the reed and the pipe, and is enriched with harmonics and overtones, so that it's sort of fuzzy around the edges, warmer, less focused in clear pure tone, that blends more easily, that makes oboe in tune with pitch du jour?
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2005-10-17 07:09
specific answers? what's your own self-analysis survey telling you?
... i don't know either way if there's a tendency, specifically, on cresc dim on oboe because i think it all depends on each player's embouchure at the moment, how well player is feeling, ability to manage reed, air volume & pressure, player's focus and experience with acquired ability to keep notes in tune anyway ... and probably the weather as well
early last year with my beginning embouchure i initially thought i was having trouble coming up to pitch. A bit later when i got the tuner i found i was playing way too sharp. Now a year later, i'm practising specifically on training myself to hold my notes down, because embouchure is both stronger and more flexible now (ready for it)
Each long note is shaped with cresc dim but because i'm focused on holding the note to the little green light for that particular exercise only (and training my ear to hear that note specifically) embouchure adjusts to air pressure and i'm still focused on holding the note ... but still find i personally go sharp far more easily than flat ... and especially when i run low on breath
It's training the muscles to hold the position and when they get fatigued that's when it goes off
when i lower jaw, a lot more than i'm presently comfortable with or capable of maintaining, that helps me play flatter, any dynamic
closed mouth inside (biting or just closing up the jaw) definitely increases tendency to go sharp and stay very sharp, any dynamic
... other than previous post outlining notes of general flatness on the oboe, and a higher percentage likelihood of playing sharp rather than flat generally, i think the specific answers you're looking for depend considerably on individual player factors on this particular instrument, so it's seems more important to know yourself
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Author: sömeone
Date: 2005-10-17 12:11
oboeblank wrote:
> We need to train our ear not eyes to play in tune.
AGREE.
> I still stand by the statement: a beautiful tone is an in tune
> tone on the oboe. If you play notes and listen objectively to
> the tone you will know where certain note sit, either flat or
> sharp because of the 'colour' of the tone. Flabby is Flat,
> Shrill and thin Sharp; no matter what pitch standard you use.
Again i agree. But i still don't want to put a lid on this, because a lot of teachings describe bright as sharp, and i do not agree. A lot of famous players in Europe sound bright in my opinion, and they are in tune.
> Hope this offered some clarification.
It did.
> I suspect the oboist was William Bennett on the recording of
> the Alpine Symphony with Bloomstedt and the San Francisco
> Symphony.
Will check him out. He is greeeeat.
Howard.
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Author: d-oboe
Date: 2005-10-17 12:55
The tendencies are not specific on oboe because of the double reed, and the nature of the embouchure. That's perhaps why tuning is such a bugger on oboe...it really demands that you find out all your tendencies on every note.
On a very stable reed, the pitch really shouldn't change.
If the reed's crow pitch goes up when more air is forced in, notes will tend to go up.
If the reed's crow pitch is too rattly or drops when more air is put into it, most notes will go flat.
So...there are no definite answers! Just blow!
D
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Author: sömeone
Date: 2005-10-17 13:03
not really? I mean, in Vienese, Italian, Russian and French orchestras, the oboe tone seems to be much more projectile and bright, but they do blend beautifully don't they? And your description seems a bit, confusing, haha.
Mind clearing that up?
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2005-10-17 19:17
... yeah, confusing, it's hard to find suitably descriptive words to define the nuances of different things one hears in oboe sound, so tried using similes and metaphors in attempt to make some distinctions, obviously not communicating clearly enough, below is a more elaborate attempt, yawhn
... haven't yet acquired all the 'jargonese' in this area, looks like a potential learning post item, or a referral, please, to useful sites in this regard?
... idea was to try and describe a more generalised or diffused oboe tone having some light and natural vibrato which blends readily (fuzzy around the edges) and therefore isn't necessily holding steady spot on with standard pitch or pitch du jour, as contrasted with the crisply clear, focused, centred and steady tone used for tuning
... however, that particular tuning tonal quality isn't exactly, or even ideally, the way oboe sounds when emotively or stylistically expressed (examples) as in Bach, Mozart, Stravinsky, Schumann, Holst, Mahler, etc. etc. is it?
I mean, it's the way one breathes and blows into the reed playing from the gut to emote and produce subtly different effects for the stolid Bach method or the light-hearted Mozart style ... yet those styles wouldn't be right for the profound moments needed in Mahler or the discordant conflicts in Stravinsky or the impressionistic romanticism of Schumann
... and on oboe :-) one can use a variety of techniques, such as different reeds with a variety of tonalities, the way one chooses to feel and breathe, deliberately lip sharper or flatter in pitch or tuning, more jaw bite or more jaw openness, off centre or fully centred notes, etc. all used deliberately as a means to that end
So, playing perfectly in tune and in pitch and with full-bodied centred tone really depends on the desired communicative impact of the music, doesn't it?
If there's tension already by slightly different tuning issues, this discord can be very effective when deliberately used interpretively. On the other hand, warm and mellow as in very sweet and pleasant and companionable ... must make a tone that's warm and fuzzy around the edges
... my own technical ability to play isn't any good yet at communicating non-verbally what i want to express as described above, but i am following my own advice of 3 P's, do have a teacher, am making progress over time, also actively particpate in reading and contributing, learning and linking from this oboe-specific board, it's a marvellous global resource, mwuah, mwuah, thank you all :-)
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Author: sömeone
Date: 2005-10-18 05:55
You reminded me!
That experiment you did was one of my initial experiences in 'getting' something out of my head on the oboe. I found out that if i throw away my embouchure, it will sound superbly flat, and when i 'pull' (air focused, basically blow more) the air out of the bell at the same time the pitch goes up, but now the tone is much more fuller because i am sort of more relaxed. And so the idea of adjusting tone and pitch came into my head, and that is how it should be. Of course you can 'cushion' or 'uncushion' more of the reed and adjust your support and there it is, a balanced tone color throughout all different dynamics and registers.
Arnoldstang said:
......Because of these factors finding the most glorious tone might put you out of tune......
That is my point from the start of the thread till now. And i think that is my conclusion, although there won't be any forever. It's a journey of discoveries everytime i start playing all over again.
Because the oboe can easily go sharp when the embouchure is not mature, reed is taken too much into mouth (bad habit or effects of long playing.....he/she must be tired....erkkkss.....), or worst, with the above nature, tries to play loudly. The oboe is famous for being able to project easily compared to other instruments. But that sort of projection is heard as a thin and electric sound from far, which in contrary a good tone will project BUT sound as good as from near.
Remarkably, blend IS one definitive factor in ensemble playing that when done well 'hides' bad intonation. Most probably the oboist is still sharp but now he/she does not project that much anymore. If you have a well in tune section the whole section will project together, and that tone is one that won't go away from my head forever. There was this time in band when a famous band conductor came to tutor us, and for the first time ever, i understood the essence of balance of sound and intonation. Good tuning = It naturally sounds louder than normal. But of course, the aim is not to get only one tuning note to sound just like that, but the whole piece of music. The other characteristics of the other wind instruments means that the clarinets, flutes etc might also face the same problem as the oboe in this tonal adjustment problem. But on instruments like the clarinet it might not have been that obvious for them, thus the problem occuring.
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