 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: samovar
Date: 2011-12-05 13:46
After such helpful input from the board on choosing an instrument I thought I would return to the well for some advice on returning to reedmaking.
As a "kid" 20-plus years ago, I used staples and shaped cane from my teacher without a second thought; I don't think I even realized the variety of staples and shaper tips available.
I will likely follow the lead from my teacher in my return to reedmaking, but also am interested in trying different shapes/staples and would welcome any suggestions about how to approach the abundance of choices intelligently.
Bill
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2011-12-05 18:01
My best advice is if you're re-starting to learn how to make reeds, pick a shape, pick a staple, pick the same darn cane gouged off the same darn gouging machine, tied at the same darn length, and work with it for at least 100 reeds. There's so many variables that can change even if you're using the same shape/staple/cane/gouge that the fewer things that will change, the better your reedmaking will get more quickly. Then, once you feel like you can consistently make 4/5 decent reeds on this setup, start changing ONE variable at a time, such as the shape but same staple/gouge/cane.
When you do make a change, be intentional with your analysis, and be deliberate. If it's a hair sharp, pull your tip up to start at the 65mm rather than 64. If it sags in the upper register, try tying a mm longer but using the same dimensions measurements (i.e. not making the reed longer).
John's recommendation of Stevens staples is a very good one. I use #2 thin wall, not pro, as they're $1 cheaper, and don't seem to make any difference to the sound. Meanwhile, the 1B is a very narrow shape, and with gouges that are often pretty hefty on the side, I find the Weber 1C gives a bit more width, and depth. An RDG -1 is also a good starting place.
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2011-12-05 18:26
I couldn't agree more with Cooper's comments: Keep everything as much the same as possible until you have a good handle on what you are doing and then change ONLY one thing at a time. Minimizing the variables is the only way to find your path through the tangled woods...
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2011-12-06 01:06
I'm with those two much more experienced guys: don't change TOO many variables all at once, or you'll never figure out what to correct over time.
GoodWinds
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2011-12-06 21:36
I just revisited Martin Schuring's site on the ASU servers. (It's a great assemblage of all things Oboe - check it out if you don't know it) He comments that it will probably take somewhere around 1000 reeds before you have a real handle on what you are doing. 2 reeds a week makes that a 10 year project. 2 reeds a day turns that into a 16 month task, more managable but not trivial.
Not to discourage anyone, but to set expectations: to tackle this journey means to keep doing it and doing it and...
The other half of this coin is, if you are virtuous and maintain that pace it gets much easier very quickly and after a couple of months you can probably start playing with some of the larger variables.
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2011-12-07 00:07
I am an 'occasional reedmaker and on the whole do very well. Consistency is something I KNOW I cannot attain by my current regimen, so I am always really glad when the reeds turn out well. I had a REALLY good teacher and model, which helped.
When I have tried 'other variables' I find my reed-making tanks for awhile, and I have to work to get my groove back. Being a full-time nurse did not leave enough time to 'hone' the skills. I guess I'm 'lucky' in the sense that 4 of 10 of my reeds make it to concert grade.
I still feel strongly (of course I would, with my history!) that there is no substitute for a good teacher/model. I'm also glad that making reeds gives me the satisfaction of making something with my hands -- akin to knitting, I guess, for others, or whittling, or tying fishing flies.
Whether you make or buy, if you get one that sings, then give thanks and appreciate all the hours that went into that baby.
GoodWinds
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2011-12-07 04:27
For what it's worth, one of the ways I achieve consistency is by use of a dial indicator. For many years, each time I found a terrific reed I noted the dimensions (thickness - I've made all my reeds 70mm with a 4mm tip, American style, for most of my career) and over time found that most of the best ones were within .01 - .02 mm of each other. When a reed gave me trouble, I checked with my dial indicator to see if the numbers were what they 'should' be. This will vary somewhat with the cane, of course.
Over time one develops 'micrometer eyeballs' - things that look right usually are - but the dial indicator will solve mysteries and keep you honest.
One of the most important things, though, is symmetry, both side to side across the spine and blade to blade. This produces 4 even quadrants that will vibrate evenly at whatever frequency the instrument is asking for. An imbalance means that not all parts of the reed are vibrating in the same manner, producing inconsistency in the response.
A judicious use of flat, raking light both lengthwise from the tip (and sometimes from the back...) and crossways will highlight lumps and bumps, and will define the architecture of the reed beautifully.
My 2 cents for the day...
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2011-12-07 05:11
yeah, I love the tying part! But you take the cake at 12; my wrist gives out around 8.
GoodWinds
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2011-12-07 05:13
I wish I had a techie to do micrometer measurements for me... I'm numerically challenged, but I can see their worth as all the best reed-makers seem to use them to 'stay honest'. Way to go, guys.
GoodWinds
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2011-12-07 16:50
c'mon, Goodwinds - how hard can it be? Push the lever to lift the probe. Spike the reed on the anvil. lower the probe onto the corner of the tip, the fattest part of the heart, the middle of the channel flanking the spine... Release the lever, read the number on the dial.
Don't be intimidated because it's an accurate tool. It's super simple to use. Gotta be easier than spiking a vein for a blood draw... (you did say you are a nurse, yes?)
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2011-12-07 17:28
I agree with Bob,
Print out one of Martin's reed diagrams, and either trace it so you don't have numbers on it, or white out the numbers and make new copies. Run off 10 or so. Then with every reed you make take measurements at those spots on the reed and compare them with Martin's original measurements. Try to get them to match up. If you end up with a reed that works really well but has different measurements, write them down on your blank reed diagram with the date and reason why you like the reed, and try to duplicate.
Reedmaking isn't about making the stars align or tapping in with the inner arundo donax energy or anything. It's more about making this symmetric with that, this even with that, and having an eye for detail.
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2011-12-07 22:52
..a DISABLED nurse... got an infection in my brain and seriously, number-related stuff is now pretty tough for me. It's not the mechanics of using the machine, it's actualy interpreting what the numbers mean. So that's the issue, and I take full responsibility for it. I'm just thankful that with a lot of practice I can even count through a piece of music.
Just accept my appreciation, because when you lose something as simple as Arithmetic, you love people who crunch and handle numbers that much more.
GoodWinds
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2011-12-08 10:39
You don't need numbers. Use colors - get a friend to put spots of nail-varnish around the dial, and put the same colors on the diagram.
The dial micrometer is really easy - the further round it goes, the thicker it is. Forget the numbers - you don't need them.
J.
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2011-12-08 17:24
there's ALWAYS an alternative solution. I live for those. Playing music has so helped me get (most of) my brain back.
GoodWinds
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2011-12-14 10:58
Hey Samovar and GoodWinds!
-- Samovar: ![[hot]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/hot.gif)
Super topic, really interesting thread because these 2 questions were a really important part of how I got the reeds I like so much today. But I'm afraid you won't like my answer: every person is different in terms of better shape and better staple because there are toooooo many variables involved, some of them instrumental, some of them physiological. Trial and error is the only way and shaped cane samples are a must.
-- GoodWinds:
YOUR STORY is a true inspiration to me!!!!!
![[happy]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley12.gif) ![[up]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley24.gif) ![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif)
I just flipped through your comments, and was particularly taken by the back-and-forth started by 2011-12-07 00:07.
=> my opinions on the matter might not be very popular. Measurements are a really good guideline, but cane is a plant, not an engineered alloy: the results of any single measurement on a reed won't yield constant results. Sure, over dozens and hundreds of reeds, some measurements stand out and tendencies become apparent, but these remain statistical, not absolute.... it's more of a bell-curve than a certainty like in vector mechanics.
So I really prefer method over measurement. If you try the reed every step of the way, and figure out what to expect and what to do next (even just wait a day or two), then you might not need measurements any more. You'll "feel your way around" reed making rather than use comparative analysis (measurements).
Naturally, this approach works really well for my scraping style... which sometimes can't really be called anything, but I'm sure it can work for any style.
Best of luck!
AND KEEP US POSTED ON YOUR EXPERIMENTS!!! ![[toast]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley15.gif)
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2011-12-14 15:58
...and after buying some really good professional reeds Robin, to make sure my technique is 'up to snuff', I find I prefer my home-made reeds in the end, and I guess that means that the process --measurements or no -- is somehow working for me, eh?
GoodWinds
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2011-12-26 18:00
Yes, Robin, but a sound Foundation (basics) is essential to any kind of success later on.
We all know what can happen when someone decides to 'teach themself' to play the oboe... the same can happen when making reeds, and then you have good players out there who are so frustrated they give up or develop a kind of angry resentment even to playing.
GoodWinds
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2011-12-26 21:50
No argument there,
but you got me on a couple of rants that I decided would just benefit nobody...
Thing is, the angry resentment and frustration you described, I have seen it in dozens of people (including professionals young and experienced), solidly trained by solid professionals from all over the continent.... all of Canada and many of the Northern States, at least...
Yet I have met people of all skill levels with different approaches to reed making absolutely enjoy playing the oboe.... and their playing is often most enjoyable to hear!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2011-12-27 02:07
so if we all just concentrated on the things that made us Happy about playing, and shrugged our shoulders at the rest, then oboists in general would enjoy a better reputation???
sounds like a winning philosophy for all sorts of things!
mary
GoodWinds
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