 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2009-10-11 23:46
It seems that there's been a lot of interest recently on the oboe bboard about different oboe equipment such as different reeds, staples, oboe brands/models, and what benefits/drawbacks they might have.
One word that gets thrown around a lot is "flexibility" and I think it's important that the word be defined (or at least partially). For example, some people use the word "flexibility" to discuss pitch, while others might use the word "unstable" to explain the same concept. What this implies to the observer is that there are different levels tolerance regarding the topic of pitch stability, and once that threshold has been crossed, the reed or oboe goes from the "flexible but stable" category to the "unstable, period" category.
I think it is important to point out that the "flexibility of tone" also works similarly. Perhaps 40% of my reed orders state they want a tone that is thick, heavy, and covered all day, every day. (Usually they just simply write under the other comments section, "Just make me sound like John Mack.") Let's call these people Group A. Others want to sound covered 50% of the time, but might also want to sound brilliant, focused, and completely different. Let's call these people Group B.
Now, for the people in Group A, if someone hands them a reed and an oboe that is comfortable enough, and always makes them sound "dark" and "thick" and "covered", then that's all the flexibility that they require. They'll be happy all day as long as the reed is stable, responsive, and the tone holds together, and as long as the oboe is in good working condition. Give them the Mozart, they'll play the Mozart. Give them the Hindesmith, and they'll play the Hindesmith.
However, if you give the same reed and same oboe to Group B, they won't be satisfied because it will only fulfill 50% of what they wish to do. This setup obviously isn't "flexible" enough for Group B, and therefore is considered not ideal, and therefore they'll probably go looking for something else.
The biggest reason why I love the playing of John de Lancie is his flexibility and ability to manipulate his tonal color. Just listening to the clip of the Marcello 2nd movement at this website, it's so clear that his control of color as you listen to the brilliant singing quality of the phrase from 11-17 seconds in, and then he changes the tonal color from 18-23 seconds to a more covered, sweeter tone. Finally, he once again opens up his tone to finish the idea until the 33 second mark. (De Lancie continues this rotation of sweet, covered tonal color to the more open singing color throughout the movement, another example is if you listen to the next phrase when the harmony goes into major and he starts on an E natural.) This isn't just a change in dynamics/vibrato, although these aspects are certainly involved with color, but it's the whole quality of the tone. It's also interesting to note that as oboists, we can always tell when someone is biting, pinching, or compressing the reed in some manner to quiet the reed, but de Lancie's tone shows no symptoms of this.
Flexibility is always improved by gaining strength in order to manipulate the air and embouchure. The better in shape you are in, the easier time you will have playing a true pianissimo on a "bigger" reed (i.e. a reed that has the ability to play FFF). The more finesse control you will have in your embouchure, the easier of a time you will have changing the tonal color by the manipulation of the placement of the tip of the reed on your lip (rather than merely biting/blowing more or less).
Flexibility is also always a teeter-totter situation where for whatever you might be gaining in one area, you are losing in other areas. If you're gaining more pitch stability in the reed, you might be giving up the ability to place the pitch on different levels on different notes on the oboe, which is necessary when playing in large ensembles. If you're gaining thicker tonal quality, you might be giving up response, or the ability to play a more brilliant tonal quality. If you are gaining the ability to play a quieter pianissimo, you might be losing the ability to play a louder fortissimo.
Why I write up this improvisational treatise is that I think it's extremely important for every oboist to be aware of how much "flexibility" in tone and pitch they desire and strive for. Nowadays I see many of these threads about different instrument brands or reeds or staples, and I wonder how much flexibility is demanded upon their own playing, and exactly what they are playing on. Obviously a college kid who rushes from Barber's Summer Music in WWQ rehearsal to a Mahler 5 orchestra rehearsal has different requirements than someone playing in a community orchestra once a week and church on Sundays. I think it'd be worth while for Mark and the administrators to add more to the "My Profile" tab at the top so that we could put more information such as:
1. Instrument(s) played?
2. How many hours a week do you typically practice?
3. Ensembles/Positions performing in regularly?
4. Do you make your own reeds?
etc. etc. etc.
I suggest this not to intimidate anyone, but rather that it may help us so that when we look at someone's profile, we can know if they have similar demands upon their playing that we have as well, and if their advice might be more applicable because they are in similar circumstances as ourselves.
Cooper
http://cooperwrightreeds.com/
PS. Anyone know how to edit their profile? I need to change my website in my profile.
Edit: Linked to the home page of Oboist's Gallery rather than to a specific clip.
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
Post Edited (2009-10-12 01:13)
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2009-10-12 01:51
Put me in group B, albeit with a need to 'work out' to strengthen the ol' embouchure more...
I AGREE; it's easy to sling advice around without taking all the factors into consideration. The Oboe is definitely one instrument that acknowledges the uniqueness of every player, so what works for Jim J may not work for Sally S and so forth.
May I encourage every amateur player out there to get a good foundation by learning skills from a competent/trained/professional teacher? That can make ALL the difference in making the most of your playing. A great book (or blog) won't give you (as a player) the individual feedback you need to go from 'decent' to 'great' Neither will simply switching brands, whether oboe or reed-making supply.
So get a good mentor and keep growing!
PS I didn't even know there was a 'my profile' tab...
GoodWinds
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Author: justme
Date: 2009-10-12 03:54
Cooper:-,
To do it from here:
After you log in, go to the bottom of the topic section that you're on, for example here it would be: " The "Flexibility" of Oboes, Tone Color, Reeds and the Player."
At the bottom of the grey box the topic is in you'll see MY PROFILE.
Click on it and you'll see EDIT PROFILE in the blue color on top of the box.
Next, click on the EDIT PROFILE and you'll see your information.
Just delete your present homepage that's in the box and replace it with the new one.
Just Me
http://woodwindforum.ning.com/
"A critic is like a eunuch: he knows exactly how it ought to be done."
CLARINET, n.
An instrument of torture operated by a person with cotton in his ears. There are two instruments that are worse than a clarinet -- two clarinets
Post Edited (2009-10-12 03:56)
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Author: mschmidt
Date: 2009-10-12 14:05
Nice essay, Cooper! I think, as an amateur, I'm in category A. I just want to show up and play in a way that makes people say, "he has a nice tone." Because, for an amateur, that's not a bad accomplishment on oboe. (For what it's worth, I got my current chamber music gig mostly because I had a tolerable sound, whatever else I lacked in musicianship. Fortunately, I think I've had some success improving my tolerable sound and working on my other skills as well--thanks to having found a good teacher.)
Mike
Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2009-10-12 14:44
Cooper, this is a really valuable essay for us all.
I grew up in the UK, and fell in love with the playing of Leon Goosens and Heinz Holliger. I was first exposed to the full, warm, rounded and (yes) largely inflexible USA tone when I heard the Beer Sheva Sinfonietta back in 1987 or so. The oboist (Avi Yosselevitch) was a Juliard graduate and had "that" sound. I was so impressed that I ran backstage and became his pupil for two years.
Since then, I have gravitated more and more to the more flexible side - a "B" side player, if you will. I have seen that non-oboists, even gifted musicians, will often prefer the extended range of expression of "B" playing, to the warm unity of tone that typifies an "A" player.
If you listen to gifted cellists, violinists, singers - they will growl, scrape, yelp in all manner of ways - all in the service of the music. We are fortunate enough to play a wind instrument that is capable of all this, and more. Why limit ourselves, in our search for the "perfect" sound?
J.
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2009-10-12 18:55
Author: mjfoboe
Cooper,
I fall into the category of wanting a very personalized reed. I am there to create the best musical line possible. Since High School I have always made my own reeds.
I agree though the real skill comes from the use of the air stream, the vibrato, and analysis of the musical line all in service to make the reed sing; that is where the real music is made - the reed is just a tool.
As for the discussion of staples, cane, gougers, and oboes; I see this in the spirit of trying to maximize your playing objectives - that is to communicate a meaningful and beautiful musical line. If any change/adjustment can achieve this - then I am all for exploring all possibilities. As per Oboes - there are clear differences in the conception of sound among various manufacturers. I personally love the European warmth, ring and individualistic characteristics. I also love the depth and edge of the American sound. The direction one wants to pursue can be a difficult choice and I realize that your personal style will shine through no matter what instrument to play.
The Marigaux oboe I am trying out - has a wonder fluidity to its scale and the lower register sings effortlessly. I just played a rapid passage where I do down to the B quite often - the oboe responded beautifully!
I play 1st seat in two community Orchestras. I play approximately 12 concerts a year. One orchestra is a POPs orchestra and the other plays a full range of music from all periods and has guest soloists. I also do the yearly Messiah - where I play second Oboe next to a professional player. I also play in the occasional woodwind quintet and sacred music. At the moment I play an LW series Lore stand bore Oboe. I have been told that I play very expressively with a warm inviting sound.
I have played since High School with a twenty five year break in between. I have now played steadily for twenty years. I have studied the last 3 years with Terry Keevil.
On another note, the requests you receive to scrape a particular type of reed interests me. I understand the need for some beginning players to buy reeds; however, I could never understand why the need to buy reeds persists - A reed is so personalized. And many times a reed needs adjustment over time.
The problem as I see it with bought reeds is that a player may adjust his playing to a bought reed rather to their Oboe or conception of sound. A bought reed may lead to poor habits - since the player may not know any better or anything different. For someone to say - make me sound like "this oboist or that oboist" - from my point of view is an unproductive stance. A player should have a conception of a sound in their head and strive for it. For those who buy reeds and then adjust them - I can see the benefit.
Oboe playing and reed making and/or adjustment go together. It's hard for me to fathom how one can be an oboist and not make and/or adjust reeds; especially as a player progresses in their training.
The concept of a covered vs. flexible sound in my opinion is an oxymoron. Since – from my point of view the sound needs to cover and be flexible – why are the two mutually extrusive? The problem I believe lies in the player’s Oboe. Many instruments have problem scales – notes – and a less flexible reed tends to stabilize these problems while a more flexible one may accentuate them. So the Oboe dictates the reed! With a good instrument – the two qualities are not exclusive of each other.
I want my reed to be free blowing, flexible, in tune, stable, and the rest depends upon the characteristics of the piece of cane. My experience playing my Loree and the Marigaux has been very informative. The Marigaux has a more stable scale – which in a sense frees me and my reeds. I do not have to “cover” the idiosyncrasies of the instrument and/or for others - maybe bad habits.
Mark
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2009-10-12 19:41
Quote:
On another note, the requests you receive to scrape a particular type of reed interests me. I understand the need for some beginning players to buy reeds; however, I could never understand why the need to buy reeds persists - A reed is so personalized. And many times a reed needs adjustment over time.
I think what you take for granted is the fact that you already know more about reedmaking that a good 60% or 70% of the oboists out there. A surprising amount of people manage to get through college without ever having to make a reed, and many adult amateurs who pick up the oboe later in life just never are interested in investing their time in learning how to make a reed. The fact that you go one step further than many professional oboists and gouge your own cane further shows your dedication to this craft.
Quote:
A bought reed may lead to poor habits - since the player may not know any better or anything different.
I think a badly made bought reed may leed to poor habits. I personally stand 100% behind my product and believe my reeds encourage the correct setup.
Quote:
For someone to say - make me sound like "this oboist or that oboist" - from my point of view is an unproductive stance.
I couldn't agree more to this statement, but it's their money and I just do my best to make the customer happy. Sometimes when there are inconsistencies in their survey, I'll negotiate some points, (like if they want a real wide shape but want absolutely no biting or embouchure manipulation), but I do my best to satisfy the customer.
Quote:
Oboe playing and reed making and/or adjustment go together. It's hard for me to fathom how one can be an oboist and not make and/or adjust reeds; especially as a player progresses in their training.
Again, I think you take for granted that you have obviously had good training and know much about reedmaking already. I don't think reedmakng is a must for most amateur oboists. I often get surveys from my website where someone will tell me how they got by without making reeds. Many times, I think amateurs are more interested in just making music and enjoying the process rather than making large strides in their playing and improving by leaps and bounds. Alex Klein is wary of incoming freshmen who are completely reed proficient because they become too reed-dependent in their playing rather than focused on what their physical setup is.
Quote:
The concept of a covered vs. flexible sound in my opinion is an oxymoron. Since – from my point of view the sound needs to cover and be flexible – why are the two mutually extrusive?
I'm not trying to state that they're opposite of each other. A flexible player is able to play both covered AND brilliant.
Quote:
The problem I believe lies in the player’s Oboe. Many instruments have problem scales – notes – and a less flexible reed tends to stabilize these problems while a more flexible one may accentuate them. So the Oboe dictates the reed!quoting
I couldn't disagree with this statement stronger. I believe the problem lies in the player, secondly the reed, and last but not least the instrument. A good player (Richard Killmer, John Mack, Joe Robinson to name a few) can/could pick up any terrible oboe/reed and make it sound great, even if it was out of adjustment. Even the reed dictates more flexibility than a reed. I have seen several professionals pick up crappy selmers, put their reed into the the instrument, and sound as lovely and flexibile as they would on their own.
Cooper
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
Post Edited (2009-10-12 19:46)
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2009-10-12 20:51
Cooper,
I agree with you that a good player can make any reed and instrument sound good. Although, I also believe it takes tremendous ability to so - when the instrument or reed is not so good.
The reason why I brought up the point about the instrument - is from the experience I have with my own Oboe. There are certain characteristics in the scale which are controlled by the way the reed is made ........ My instrument needs a very stable reed.
My experimentation with the Mariguax supports this observation. I can see now that the Mariguax will require a differnet reed concept and construction. The Oboe plays itself and is much less dependent on the reeds. It needs a free blowing reed - there is sufficient resistance built into the Oboe sound - and a lighter "flexible" reed enables me to "bend" and "shape" the sound without losing any depth or character.
I can see your point though - it is easy to blame everything and anything on the Oboe and reeds and not your playing style or abilities.
Mark
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Author: mschmidt
Date: 2009-10-12 21:39
One different aspect of the reed/oboe interaction is the way in which an oboe problem can be "smoothed over" by adapting the reed to suit the oboe, at a cost of tone quality or other parameters. I played on an eternally leaky Prestini for most of my life and learned to make reeds that allowed me to play, but which gave me intonation and tone problems. When I got my new Marigaux, I adapted on my own to some extent, and started sounding better--but I needed to be prodded by a teacher to make the reed changes that could really fulfill the potential of the instrument. These reed changes also required some player adjustment, as well. They weren't anything too serious, as I had been well trained in the general concepts of embouchure and breath support, but were more a realization of choices that previous reeds didn't really give me.
Mike
Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2009-10-13 05:19
I find even altering the shape of the cane and its density dictate changes in the way a reed should be made.
Harold Gomberg was who I listened to, when my own teacher had passed away and I could no longer model on his terrific sound.
I have a separate set of concert-quality reeds for my Gordet and my Jarde, so of course the instrument has something to do with 'flexibility'. I use each instrument for a different setting and yes, I will change a reed to match the composer's style, using a slightly different sound for Beethoven than for Telemann. It depends on the ensemble, the conductor's preference, and the sound in the hall/auditorium too. For amateurs, I think it's of some benefit to compliment the sound of the 1st (or 2nd) you play with.
I guess when push comes to shove it is always worthwhile to take time to listen to yourself and give the performance the best sound for that situation. I'll probably be experimenting with 'covered' 'dark'
'warm' 'responsive' etc. till I'm too old to play anymore. Which, I hope, is many years away.
GoodWinds
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Author: Wufus
Date: 2009-10-13 17:14
Cooper,
I couldn't agree more. You have excellently addressed an issue that does not seem to talked about much. I have always found it interesting that the stability/flexibility of sound is linked with the stability/flexibility of pitch. I guess when you think about it, it makes sense.
What you have written is spot on. I agree that we as oboists need to understand what level of flexibility we want in our playing. It is especially true when choosing an instrument. Some maker's oboes are less flexible in sound (for those in your "group A") Which may be a good thing for those who want a consistent sound all the time. In this case more of the sound is inherently in the oboe.
Other makers have oboe that are quite flexible. The player can do a lot to change color and tone. But, as you point out sometimes at the expense of some pitch stability. More work for the player but a greater set of tools. Always a trade off.
I play a Rigoutat Expression model which is not talked about much in this country. I live and play in Los Angeles. Mostly orchestral playing. I chose this instrument precisely because of it's flexibility in sound, which to me gives it a lot of character. I have tried a lot of instruments and this one suits me very well. I am in "group B"
Wufus
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2009-10-19 01:50
fortunately for all concerned there's plenty of room for good players in each group Cooper mentioned!
GoodWinds
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