 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2002-12-18 12:38
What's the purpose of bore oil? I've never used it, nor has it ever been suggested to me.
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Author: mario
Date: 2002-12-18 12:51
Bore oil is mainly used for two reasons:
1. Prevent the wood of your clarinet to be exposed too much to moisture (saliva)
2. Prevent the tone holes from being clogged by drops of saliva (typically a problem of the rh side Bb key...)
In fact, the bore oil makes the saliva drip of the wood instead of letting it form a liquid film on the inside of your clarinet.
By the way, I use a simple peanut oil for my clarinets instead of the much more expensive "special" bore oils. I push a little sponge full of oil once trough the clarinet, and this holds for at least a year.
Mario
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Author: Forest Aten
Date: 2002-12-18 13:00
No peanut oil.....many people have allergic reactions to even the smallest amounts of this oil. The reaction can be deadly for some...
Bore oil is frequently discussed on this BB. Go to the archives and read, read, read.
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Author: Hank
Date: 2002-12-18 13:02
Hi Morrigan,
I too have asked the same question and the topic has been discussed many times on the BB. I'd do a quick search for bore oil and you will find a treasure trove of info.
Hank
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Author: mario
Date: 2002-12-18 13:28
Forest,
as far as I know, people are used to eat peanuts, peanut butter, and most of commercially available salad dressings also contain peanut oil, at least in Europe.
Indeed, it might be that some people are experiencing allergic reactions due to peanut oil, but in general, this is not an issue.
I am using peanut oil since I started to play clarinets nearly 20 years ago. And I never experienced any problem.
Interestingly, even my "bad weather-outdoor" Bb clarinet, which happens to be a wooden E13 Buffet I bought in excellent conditions for about 30 bucks (the guy didn't know what he was selling...), never cracked all over the past 10 years.
And peanut oil is very cheap. So every time I need to oil my clarinets I just buy a new bottle and use the rest for salad dressing or cooking...
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Author: Mark Charette, Webmaster
Date: 2002-12-18 15:52
mario wrote:
>
> Indeed, it might be that some people are experiencing allergic
> reactions due to peanut oil, but in general, this is not an
> issue.
mario, it's actually a completely serious and devastating allergy, not just in the USA but around the world. Indeed, I flew from Dallas to Detroit just last Sunday on a "peanut free" flight because one of the passengers was allergic to peanuts in any form. It's a relatively common allergy, and one of the most serious.
I travel with emergency injectors of atropine due to an allergy to thin-skinned fruits. Luckily heat destroys the enzyme I'm allergic to so cooked foods don't affect me, but I am very careful with salads and such because fruits are sometimes "hiding" in there.
I have about 10 minutes before my throat swells shut in a histamine reaction, along with other serious side effects.
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Author: clare
Date: 2002-12-18 19:06
Mario
Just to back up what Forest & Mark say, those people who have allergies to peanuts can die pretty quickly even from inhaling 'fumes' of peanuts. That's why so many products have warnings that they may contain trace elements of nuts (even, ironically enough, packets of peanuts!). So if you are sitting playing next to someone who suffers from this, your clarinet could set them off. Really, it's worth being careful about.
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2002-12-18 22:17
Thanks for the suggestion of searching for bore oil topics, but, the board is full of discussions on WHICH bore oil to use, etc. What I want to know is WHY does one use bore oil, and whats the difference between a clarinet that is oiled, as opposed to one that has never been oiled?
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Author: Karel
Date: 2002-12-19 01:52
Morrigan, all wooden clarinets come "oiled" by the manufacturer. Buffet does not seem to suggest re-oiling, at least not for the first 5 years or so. I understand the purpose of oiling is to waterproof the wood so that it does not swell and shrink depending on the degree of water absorption. There is a service available which immerses your clarinet in oil for ?24 hrs? and the results have been praised here.
It seems logical that the waterproofing effect of the original oiling may need to be reinforced periodically. To reiterate, I am sure all wooden clarinets come to us treated with oil in their manufacture.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-12-19 03:08
Mark P. Jasuta wrote:
>
> FYI Atropine is used as an antidote for nerve gas attack.
In combination with pralidoxime. Yeah, I knew that - used to carry <b>that</b> combination around a few decades ago.
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Author: mario
Date: 2002-12-19 07:55
Well, I guess I have to apologize for my ignorance on peanut allergies. I've just never been confronted to anybody suffering from this.
But after your posts I seriously have to consider changing my "oiling" strategy.
BTW, talking about atropine - I also used to carry that kind of stuff arround with me... As clarinettists we should probably start using it, because it stops saliva production instantly - and bore oil is not an issue anymore... ;-)
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2002-12-19 12:43
I'll second the non-use of peanut oil both for the good of the wood, the player. and surrounding bystanders. Actually there is a body of evidence indicating that modern processing techniques for peanut products preserves the natural aflotoxins found on stored nuts and grain products and it is these mold (a generic) related byproducts that are the actual allergens, but the severe allergic reactions are the same.
The purpose of bore oil is "controlled" moisture absorption and desorption of water. The oil used to treat the wood before manufacture is plant derived and probably aids most in the machining processes - although modern mixed carbide and diamond milling tools probably would be dulled to the extent that older tool steel tools were. The oil also aids in heat dissipation and lessening the heat build up in the grenadilla wood blank being transformed into the instrument. Aside from the milling steps the oil used to impregnate the wood prior to manufacture aids in the stabilization of the wood and adds a tad more ability of the wood to relieve stresses caused by heat and structural alterations (taking away wood) during manufacture.
The plant oil also controls the moisture level within the wood by tightly combining with water in shells of ever less bound water. The shells closest to the core of the oil molecule being held by chemical bonding which is very strong while the outer shells are held by less strong chemical bonds (hydrogen bonding). When people say bore oil waterproofs the wood of the bore - actually when using plant derived oils you are controlling the moisture content. Water is still absorbed and desorbed but very little water is absorbed by wood with the proper oil content because the inner shells of water surrounding the oil molecule are filled and little additional water is added or lost. The active process of adding and loosing water is an important part of stabilizing the wood and potentially avoiding structural changes due to rapid absorption or desorption of water in the wood.
The moisture in the bore of the instrument is not actually siliva but a more pure form of water vapor from our lungs that we blow in with the air to make music - this is good, and better for the wood than the composition of siliva.
The plant oil present in the wood used in manufacture is lost over time (washed out and swabbed out). Plant oils due to their wonderful characteristics will combine with water due to their unique molecular structure - while petroleum oils will not. Wood without the proper oil content will gain water much more quickly (although with the very dense character of grenadilla wood this process is blunted to some degree) because the plant oil buffers this water absorption due to the shells of water already discussed. A well oiled (conditioned with the proper amount of oil) will appear to shed water but actually the wood has enough moisture and needs no more. Waterproofing the wood is not a good practice because it disrupts this homeostasis of water balance within the wood. Areas which are not completely waterproof (like holes in your rain tarp) will absorb large quantities of water and dry out much more quickly than wood that is evenly conditioned with oil to gain and loose moisture slowly. These rapid gains and losses of water can lead to structural and dimensional changes in the wood that can add to stressors that cause wood to fracture - crack.
Each piece of wood in a musical instrument - and you have one different piece each for the barrel, upper joint, lower joint, and bell has different graining patterns, different density and structure, different abilities to hold oil, and different stress patterns within the wood. One should carefully inspect each piece to determine if it appears to soak up moisture to a different extent than it's neighbors. The oil needs (some pieces gain or loose oil and water to diffferent extents) of each segment should be assessed and attended to - in possibly different degrees of oiling. Your instrument is a wonderful blend of these different pieces of wood and that is one reason (too many others to count) that each instrument is unique.
Best Holidays to all. The Doctor
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Author: Bob
Date: 2002-12-19 13:43
At least in my own horns I believe there is some saliva that finds its way down to the bell as evidenced by deposits similar to what I find on the mouthpiece.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2002-12-19 17:41
While Doctor Henderson's coments are self-sufficient, here's a thought that applies in my case: It may apply to you, too, if your instrument experiences wide swings in humidity. My home is on the edge of the Mojave Desert, where the relative humidity can reach single digits for long periods. So wood instruments here are exposed to extremely low humidity much of the time. Then when a dry instrument is taken into a playing environment which may be humidified, or when the humidity becomes extremely high as occasionally happens, the poor wood which has been almost desiccated absorbs lots of water. It is a matter of concern that the dimensional changes due to such absorption and release of water on a large scale may damage the wood.
When much water leaves the wood, a good response is to replace it with an appropriate non-volatile oil. If the cell walls and interstitial spaces are full of oil (along with, of course, that residual water that will not leave unless you bake the instrument -- not a good idea), water will not be absorbed so readily and the instrument will have greater dimensional stability. Another benefit (albeit one which you should never depend upon) is that wood so treated will have a lesser tendency to crack explosively due to contained water expansion when its temperature drops low enough (it does not have to freeze).
Yes, it appears that Buffet does *not* recommend oiling their wood instruments at all until a great deal of time has passed. I have heard no explanation whatever as to how this can be sensible under all conditions. Simply put: I do not believe that properly oiling a Clarinet can cause it to crack, but failure to oil appropriately just might.
In passing, peanut oil is a legume oil, somewhat similar to soybean oil. Clarinets are made from trees, and tree seeds come from trees. So it would seem that tree-seed oils might be a better choice than legume oils for oiling a Clarinet. Some examples are Almond (used by Forest Aten as I recall), Olive (which I used in the past), and Walnut. But I now use and suggest "Bore Doctor™" oil. This oil is selected for specific characteristics and has special additives to retard oxidation/rancidity, among other things. It is designed and produced by Doctor Omar Henderson, a sponsor of this Bulletin Board. It is definitely more expensive than ordinary oils, but I believe it's well worth it. I do not suggest using it on salads.
Regards,
John
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2002-12-20 11:10
Thanks guys, I believe I may start to oil my new instruments when I get them next year. I'll make another post closer to the time I get them, for more specific instructions, but until then, I will look deeper into oiling as I only want the best for my new horns, and will need to become sufficiently versed in what to do.
I'll speak to my teacher, too, he'll be able to give me good reasons why he doesn't (and subsequently *I* don't either) oil his instruments. Either way, I'll tell you guys too, see what you all think.
=]
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2002-12-22 12:37
Omar, you often refer to the benefits of plant oils. Please could you clarify.... Does this include ALL oils from plants, or specific oils.
More particularly, is peanut oil one of the good-guy plant oils to which you refer, providing it is stabilized with the appropriate additives such as you use.
BTW Mario, I most certainly would not use peanut oil on its own. You just need to look at the mess (like half-set varnish) where the spills semi-solidify under the oil container in the pantry to understand this. Do you really want your instrument to be imregnated and covered with this mess!
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Author: Hans
Date: 2002-12-26 01:00
As your other replies have made clear, bore oil helps to stabilize wooden instruments. I oil my clarinet once a year, very lightly. A little goes a long way and over-oiling can cause oil residue buildup which can reduce the clarinet's bore diameter.
HJ
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Author: Malaya
Date: 2002-12-26 05:46
i oil my clarinet once every 6 mos... it's a very old B&H, and has recently survived one marching season. (and probably many with my grandmother and mother!) [i rented a cheap plastic one this year, that i REALLY detest.] for some reason, my clarinet plays warmer after oiling... weird coinsidence, or something that really does happen to "normal" people unlike myself??
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Author: beejay
Date: 2006-07-24 21:55
I do remember the debate about using peanut oil as bore oil a few years back, and thought some of you might be interested in an article I came across in Early Music from October 1974 about the Nuremburg Conference on Instrument Restoration.
"One point of importance concerning oils for woodwind bores came out quite by chance," the article says. "One contributor had suggested the use of medicinal liquid paraffin, since this is an inert oil, but others had found that a slight acidity in the bore was essential to keep down fungal attack and that liquid paraffin neutralizes this acidity, with the result that instruments had been attacked and destroyed by a form of dry rot. As is well known, drying or crystallizing oils, such as linseed or sweet almond, should be avoided since sooner or later they will form a crust, expanding as they do so, and crack the instrument; one that was recommended, as showing no bad side effects so far, was peanut oil. As well as being safe, so far as anybody knows yet (this is an area in which constant experiment and watchfulness are still necessary), it has the merit of being cheaply and easily obtainable as groundnut cooking oil."
Of course, this was written in pre-Doc days!
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Author: Bruno
Date: 2006-07-24 22:10
Seems to me that since we are advised to oil our bores ("oil our bores"?) so infrequently - I do mine once a year - we don't have to go cheap. Why fool around with peanut oil at all. Given its potential to produce allergic reactions in susceptible individuals the only thing that it has going for it is that it's inexpensive.
I think the little bottle of Selmer bore oil I bought ten years ago is still half-full. What did it cost? $2.50?
b/
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2006-07-24 23:37
(Disclaimer - I sell a plant derived oil for woodwind instrument wood)
I do not remember a recommendation from a "reputable" source about the frequency of bore oiling? What hard evidence (other than anecdotal) do you have for oiling infrequently? I doubt that even the "experts" agree on an oiling schedule, age of the instrument at which it should be done, conditions of the wood which indicate oiling is necessary or prudent, or even possibly the type of oil to apply to the wood. If your brand name bore oil is colorless and clear it is probably light mineral oil which too often is sold as bore oil. I have found through experimentation and microscopic examination of multiple samples of Grenadilla wood that mineral oil is harmful to the wood over time. Ask yourself the question why name manufacturers sell mineral oil as bore oil when they do not use it to impregnate their instruments at manufacture? Why would I use it if they do not use it on their own wood? Are big brand name use and care products prudent and safe because of the name?
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: FDF
Date: 2006-07-25 00:06
L. Omar Henderson,
I bow to your expertise. You have obviously spent more time than I investigating oils.
I would only like to add, that when I purchased my Selmer CT, I was told to oil it for a few times, then it would be OK. I've since asked about oiling my bore on here, and, also, I visited the Selmer website about caring for my clarinet. The Selmer website made no additional mention about bore oil.
I haven't oiled my Selmer Ct in 45 years, and I have had no cracks. Perhaps, the manufactuers attention to the aging of the wood is a factor, what do you think?
Thank you, for your response.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2006-07-25 00:38
I hate to sound glib but an old saying goes: some clarinets will crack no matter how well you take care of them, some may crack given the proper insult (time, temperature, humidity or lack there of, etc.), and others will never crack no matter what the insult. Unfortunately it is not engraved anywhere on the clarinet which type that you have! The prudent individual will take the best care of their instrument possible using the most expert and scientifically sustainable evidence available to guide them in their choice of techniques and products to use. There are still many unanswered questions about what techniques and products are best and appropriate but much has been learned and written in the last 50 years that debunks some of the old traditions and wife's tales rampant in the woodwind community. Some have proven true with objective evidence to support them, others have been proven false. Each individual is custodian of their own instrument and it is their choice to make.
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: FDF
Date: 2006-07-25 00:55
Thank you for your response. I will oil my bore.
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Author: hans
Date: 2006-07-25 02:45
Omar,
What is your source for "name manufacturers sell mineral oil as bore oil when they do not use it to impregnate their instruments at manufacture"?
When I see how much petroleum based stain and preservative is sold for (e.g.) wooden decks, it seems counter-intuitive that petroleum based oil used occasionally would be harmful. And we are talking about applying a thin film, that is allowed to be absorbed, with any excess removed.
Regards,
Hans
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2006-07-25 03:18
Hans, I am a scientist with all the tools and instrumentation at my disposal to perform quantitative and qualitative chemical analysis - my vocation. I am also very conscious of statistical experimental design and the proof of the null hypothesis in testing and experimental work. I have analyzed the clear, colorless bore oil sold by several of the large instrument manufacturers and it is light mineral oil. Some go so far as to add volatile petroleum distillate fractions to speed evaporation giving the impression that the oil is readily absorbed into the wood. I have also analyzed the native Grenadilla oil extracted from the raw wood and the combination oil extracted from numbers of junk instruments from the major manufacturers and determined what they use to impregnate the wood. Commonly it is a plant derived oil. As I indicated, in accelerated studies (using increased, but not destructive, temperature to speed up chemical reactions - a common practice) I have documented, using phase contrast microscopy or other types of microscopy, denaturation of both the cellular structure and wood architecture of Grenadilla wood infused with mineral oil as well as other petroleum based products. Again, these studies demonstrate a process, not a chronology in everyday life which may take longer than you keep an instrument to be manifest.
L. Omar Henderson
Post Edited (2006-07-25 03:22)
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Author: beejay
Date: 2006-07-25 09:20
I wasn't trying to stir things up -- just raise a point of interest. Nor was I suggesting that anyone should douse their clarinets in peanut oil. The possibility of using peanut oil was raised at a meeting many years ago of conservators and museum curators concerned about the problems of preserving very old instruments, not necessarily in playing condition. I wonder what space-age product they use today.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-07-25 09:42
"Renaissance Wax"?
http://www.woodfinishsupply.com/RenWax.html
Post Edited (2006-07-25 09:42)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2006-07-25 17:48
In my opinion Doc's opinions and suggestions are state of the art and scien ce as regards clarinet care. I haven't checked his product list lately but I have the impression that he does carry a "wax". If so it may be Renaissance Wax or a version of it. There are some clarinet people who advocate "wax" instead of oil for clarinet wood maintenance. I have used both "Renaissance Wax " (a commercial product) on wood clarinets but have never done any scientific testing of results. This wax can be used without worrying about getting any on the pads and it can also impart some protection of the keys to perspiration. I don't know that anyone can say with authority that bore oil is better than Renaissance Wax or vice versa. Renaissance Wax is a well established product used, reportedly, for the restoration and preservation of museum pieces. Google it for details.
"WHY does one use bore oil?" ...Ans. because one believes it is a good idea.
Bob Draznik
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