 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: DeletedUser
Date: 2018-03-22 05:59
OK I have to ask why is the term Golden Era being used as a selling point for Buffet R13 clarinets ? on EBAY - They say it is from the mid 60s to the mid 70s but when exactly is it. And does it mean anything ?
Post Edited (2018-03-22 06:01)
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Author: qp
Date: 2018-03-22 08:13
It's a complete load of hogwash invented by people obsessed with finding a clarinet to fix their own personal playing inadequacies.
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Author: zhangray4
Date: 2018-03-22 08:23
It's basically the time where most people believed Buffet was producing their clarinets in the highest quality possible, and with the highest quality wood. So that's why there is no exact start and end date.
-- Ray Zhang
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Author: RBlack
Date: 2018-03-22 08:36
Realistically anyone who is selling a Buffet R13/other model can say it's a "golden era" horn all they want, regardless of when it was made, or if it is even any good.
As Ray says, it refers to the time prior when Buffet supposedly made its best clarinets with its best wood. This is not definitely defined anywhere, and is extremely debatable. Close to as you say, I'd place it roughly 60s-70s. However, I could be selling a 40s Buffet, or a 90s one even, and announce it is a "golden age" specimen. It doesn't really mean a whole lot. Usually when someone says their horn is "golden age" they are trying to say it is good in their opinion.
For what it's worth, I picked my personal R13 (an '83) over a 70s model. They are all so varied that it is hard to make definite statements about certain decades.
My 2 cents.
-Robin
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Author: Simon Aldrich
Date: 2018-03-22 21:23
There is a phenomenon called the "golden age syndrome",
http://jwb441.blogspot.ca/2009/05/golden-age-syndrome.html
Woody Allen made a film about the golden age syndrome, titled Midnight in Paris. In the film golden age thinking is revealed to be “the erroneous notion that a different time period is better than the one one’s living in" and that this notion “is a flaw in the romantic imagination of those people who find it difficult to cope with the present”, going so far as to declare “nostalgia is denial, denial of the painful present.”
Of course none of this means that Buffets were not actually better in the 60s and 70s
Simon
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Author: Klose ★2017
Date: 2018-03-23 06:06
Maybe this is not very related: I think all clarinets have a relatively short peak performance period (about 30 years in my opinion). Therefore even if some instruments were indeed well-made in 70s, they are very unlikely to be good now.
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Author: donald
Date: 2018-03-23 06:49
I just play tested a 1978 A clarinet (hand picked by a former player from the Spokane Symphony who has lived in NZ for the last few decades) and it was easily a better instrument than any number of more modern clarinets I've played in the last few weeks (including 5-10 year old Buffets).
This doesn't mean that 1978 is part of any "golden age", but that this player found a GREAT instrument and looked after it. Some instruments age badly- other pieces of wood seem to retain their dimensions better than others (which really should come as no surprise). He also has a 1963 B flat clarinet :-)
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2018-03-23 15:35
Same with people.
The older we get, the better we used to be...
Chris J
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Author: Curinfinwe
Date: 2018-03-24 21:28
There's a word for the phenomenon I'm thinking of but I can't recall it. Couldn't it be an example of only the best clarinets from that time still being used, so people assume that all of the clarinets from that era were of that level?
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Author: gwie
Date: 2018-03-25 07:14
Well cared for and regularly maintained, I think clarinets can last for many, many decades, if not longer. My first teacher still plays on the set of R-13's she bought back in the 70's, and they sound great. After all, we routinely perform on 300 year old violins and 200 year old bows...
I just find that some clarinetists are unwilling to play an instrument that has visible repairs, or has had cracks in the past (even if they are fixed). It's likely because the cost of clarinets is relatively low by comparison so a complete replacement is easier. After all, $5000 is still only in the range of student-level violins, but that will easily fetch a new Buffet Festival or Tradition model.
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2018-03-25 16:49
There have been design changes to the R13 over the years. Design changes tend to trade one advantage or problem for another.
Steve Ocone
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Author: Ed
Date: 2018-03-25 17:50
The part I find really funny is that back in the day, people would try a dozen clarinets to find "the one" because they were reputed to be inconsistent and many were supposedly dogs.
What ever happened to all of those? How is it that any instrument from that era is now great? Did the lousy ones get better over time, or were they all disposed of in a landfill or ground up to make greenline instruments?
Yes, there were some really fine instruments from that era, but I believe there are some really fine ones from any era. There are really nice ones being made today. There were certain great qualities to the old instruments and some things that make them desirable, but I still think that it all comes down to each individual instrument and one against another. I don't know that you can categorize all instruments from any time as the same.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2018-03-25 17:57
Ed wrote:
> The part I find really funny is that back in the day, people
> would try a dozen clarinets to find "the one" because they were
> reputed to be inconsistent and many were supposedly dogs.
>
> Yes, there were some really fine instruments from that era, but
> I believe there are some really fine ones from any era. There
> are really nice ones being made today.
Trouble is, as people here often point out, there are few places a player can go today to try a dozen instruments.
Karl
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2018-03-25 19:29
Remember people in the '70s, now sometimes thought of as the Golden Age, saying the Buffet was no longer as selective with the wood and had changed the aging routine to speed it up because of demand--more people worldwide were buying top instruments than in previous decades. None of the people I heard say this had any particular connection with Buffet, so it was probably speculation and urban legend. Still, world demand has probably increased steadily, and there have been lots of times when Buffet's profit margin has been problematic. Don't know that I've seen any kind of authoritative description of changes in the protocols for handling grenadilla billets at Buffet, or the finishing time per instrument, over time. The phenomenon of people selling new instruments after doing work on the pads, springs, tone holes and so on was certainly alive and well during the Golden Age. There were fewer cost-saving materials "innovations," though.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2018-03-25 21:48
Quote:
Trouble is, as people here often point out, there are few places a player can go today to try a dozen instruments.
I don't think that there were that many back then either. These days there are a few places around. If one is in the east, it is possible to go to Buffet in NYC. One option for many is to buy from someone who hand selects instruments.
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2018-03-26 00:06
I don't rule out completely that instrument quality could have been higher.
1. More abundant grenadilla wood. Clarinet makers could select higher grade wood for the same money.
2. Not as fierce competition from mostly Asian producers. This has probably forced Western makers to cut some corners.
Advancements in technology and knowledge speaks against the golden era theory.
Btw. Stradivarius and Guerneri violins represent a golden era, but blind tests give a firm indication that the hype of the instruments is all in their name.
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Author: OmniClarinet314
Date: 2025-03-15 00:11
"It's a complete load of hogwash invented by people obsessed with finding a clarinet to fix their own personal playing inadequacies."
What you're saying is hogwash. A lot of people can benefit from having a much better instrument. You get rid of the instrument factor and you can focus on only your ability.
Post Edited (2025-03-15 00:12)
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2025-03-15 01:30
I bought my first R13 in 1971 and second in 1979 (3rd in 1999). I couldn't tell any difference.
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Author: Michael E. Shultz
Date: 2025-03-15 14:46
I find the idea of the 1960s to 1970s being a "Golden Era" interesting. I graduated high school in 1974. My memory of that time period is one of poor manufacturing and quality control (I'm referring to all products, not just clarinets). A girl in my high school band bought a Buffet R13. The upper barrel promptly cracked and was replaced under warranty. The replacement also cracked. This time, it was only pinned, and looked like Frankenstein's clarinet. I felt bad for her. Perhaps all of the bad Buffet R13 clarinets of this period have been sold for parts by now.
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read."
Groucho Marx
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Author: David H. Kinder
Date: 2025-03-15 18:01
I think there's more sentiment about the past, and there may be a study about how dense the wood was back then compared to today(?).
I like (but I'm not in a position to verify) what Michael Lowenstern says about clarinets on his website:
https://www.earspasm.com/collections/clarinets
"Once set up properly, there is almost no difference between two clarinets of the same model.
Whaaat? Well, in the past, clarinets were
1) drilled by hand, not by a computer, and
2) not usually set up properly before you bought them.
So the variation was often huge — tone holes were not precise, there was less science involved in the wood cultivation, springs were all over the place, and pads were seated wrong. But now that all manufacturers use computer modeling, CNC machines, and other automation, the difference between one Buffet R13 and another Buffet R13 is very minimal. (That said, there’s still a fair bit of human error; springs and pads are still a mess, which is why I fly each instrument up to my technician upstate to get set up! And I pay for that so you don’t have to."
Ridenour AureA Bb clarinet
Vandoren BD5 HD 13-series mouthpiece
Vandoren Optimum Silver ligature (plate 1)
Vandoren #4 Blue-box reeds
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2025-03-15 21:18
My R13s (B-flat and A), which my late father purchased for me new in 1968, are obviously long in the tooth but still work well. I would never claim they are better than today's instruments simply because they were produced in the days when Buffet was king, so to speak (with Selmer and Leblanc a close second).
What I do remember, though, is that R13s were consistently high quality and one could try quite a few and never come across a dud. Of course, there were not 50 different models to choose from either, which was probably a factor in their consistency.
Buffet R13s first took off when Robert Marcellus and certain other big-name players in the U.S., like Stanley Drucker and Harold Wright, embraced them. Prior to that, most top clarinetists played either Selmer or Leblanc (my first professional instrument as a serious student was a Selmer). When I first heard Anthony Gigliotti play the Mozart Concerto in Philly, he was playing on a Selmer Series 10 and he sounded great. I heard Benny Goodman in concert twice. The first time he was playing on a Selmer; the second time he was playing on a Buffet. Both times he sounded fantastic and (surprise, surprise) just like Benny Goodman.
I recall the cost in Canadian dollars of my R13s in 1968: $200 for the B-flat and $220 for the A; the French-style "pochette" double case cost an additional $20. My R13 E-flat clarinet that I bought in 1969 cost $350 -- very expensive at that time.
Paul Globus
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Author: ruben
Date: 2025-03-15 22:00
I seem to recall that Benny Goodman played Selmer Centered Tone for jazz and Buffet for Classical. ...and yes, sounded like Benny Goodman on both. There are worse things in life than sounding like Benny Goodman!
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: petrosv
Date: 2025-03-15 22:12
There are lots of different opinions but the most reasonable was that during that time (1960-75-6) the R13 was the top model and so all the best 10 year air dried wood went into those clarinets.
Also the man who designed the R13 Robert Carrée joined them in 1955 was with them until the 70's he changed the way Buffet was making clarinets to do more hand work and finishing on his R13's.
Then when Buffet changed to other models in 1975 the best wood went to those and the R13 could have suffered from that so by 1980 they are no longer the same quality clarinet. This makes sense. I have only played 1 R13 a 1968 and it sang like a bird. I did read an article from someone who tested several R13's from pre to post golden era and concluded the golden era and into 1978 were the best
sorry I can't find the link but look on line
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2025-03-15 23:06
I visited the Buffet factory in Nantes, France with my teacher at the time, the late Yona Ettlinger, in the the early 1970's. In one large section of the building, they had racks and racks of Grenadilla (African Blackwood, aka Dalbergia Melanoxylon) warehoused. The wood was cut into very rough squarish shapes, for upper and lower joints, bells and barrels, each piece with a hole drilled through the center. The place was humidity controlled. The fellow from Buffet who was with us said that the wood they were currently using to make instruments was a least a decade old.
Paul Globus
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Author: Bill
Date: 2025-03-16 03:32
Thank God I do not have "Golden Era" syndrome! I think one Buffet's as good as another. Just never buy a 21xxx or 22xxx series Buffet.
Those are all mine.
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
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Author: RBlack
Date: 2025-03-16 04:19
Kind of funny that I commented on this thread back in 2018 too!
Currently I own 3 R13 Bbs, from: 1961, 1966, and 1982 (not 1983 like I previously said incorrectly).
The 1982 is still my favorite, with a good balance of characteristics.
The 1961 is a good instrument, but not particularly special imo.
The 1966 is interesting. It has a unique and special tone and feel, reminiscent of an A clarinet. However it also has quite varied intonation so I don’t find myself using it often.
The best R13 I’ve played so far actually is a 596xxx (2007?) owned by a friend.
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