 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Jimis4klar
Date: 2025-01-13 19:21
I've seen many saying that reeds should be adjusted (taking off cane) during breaking-in period (during first days of playing more and more periodically). Though when I do that on my new reeds, I find harder to determine how much cane I should take off, while when reed is well broken in, then It's much easier to determine how much I have to rub it. What I want to say is, for me I find better to break-in reeds first and then adjust them(take off cane). I'm interested for your opinion and what's the method you work on your reeds.
Post Edited (2025-01-13 19:22)
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2025-01-13 20:55
Jim:
Tom Ridenour, whose ATG method of reed adjustment is the closest thing to what I do (read: I don't follow it religiously, but no other method better describes my approach) seems to adhere to the notion that a reed that doesn't play as desired out of the box needs adjusting, not breaking in.
https://youtu.be/1qGj_-oeUpY?si=s-ieVDIBaEYdV5xI&t=431
Conversely, I dub this following video, addressed on the forum prior, which seems to suggest otherwise, the ultimate guide to breaking in reeds (read: not necessary the best method for producing the maximum number of good reeds from a box, but the quintessential method of breaking in reeds for those who buy into this approach):
https://youtu.be/XmTL_AOEOiQ?si=-X9843AbXqWQZTje
So what's a player to do? (Bias: I'm more in Tom's camp.)
Well, breaking in (or simply playing) a reed over time may contribute to it being less resistant, where adjusting it and removing material from the get go may result in too light a reed, while the Marcellus technique of the other video may result in little more than, as Tom puts it in his video, "giving coffee (breaking in) to a drunk (a bad reed)," resulting in little more than an "awake drunk" (a broken in reed that continues to be bad.)
And breaking in reeds the Marcellus way, assuming it even works well, may find you "dying of old age" before the fruits of your efforts materialize.
So: how's about a compromise that finds you improving a reed from how it played out of the box, but not necessarily perfecting it on its first play, putting it away for testing the next day and futher refining? 
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Author: lydian
Date: 2025-01-13 21:12
Why not buy the right reed to begin with so you don't have to do anything to them? If you scrape every reed, then your reeds are too hard.
My method is take a reed out of the box and play it. If I'm not happy, I take another reed out of the box until I get a good one. I play half a dozen reed instruments and don't have time to constantly work on reeds.
Post Edited (2025-01-13 21:15)
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Author: Samsinite
Date: 2025-01-13 22:03
Where do you find reeds that are perfectly consistent? The only ones that seem to be are synthentic and not cane. For cane reeds, I usually purchase Brad Bhen's Ario reeds and find them much more consistent out of the box than Vandorens, but they still have variations from reed to reed out of the box. Some reeds are slightly harder, others slightly softer, some occasionally off balance, and some are pretty good. Wood cane will have different densities and imperfections, everyone is going to find differences from reed to reed in a box of reeds. Some manufactures are better than others, but you can either choose to discard reeds that aren't good enough to play on, or try to make adjustments to them so that they are ready to play, the choice is yours. I myself use my reed geek on them to start making adjustments right away when needed, though I am a little cautious with them are first and will continue to dial them in a little bit each day until I decide to keep it or toss it. But at the end of the day, if the reed isn't good, you can either try to make adjustments or toss it.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2025-01-13 22:19
lydian wrote:
> Why not buy the right reed to begin with so you don't have to
> do anything to them? If you scrape every reed, then your reeds
> are too hard.
>
> My method is take a reed out of the box and play it. If I'm not
> happy, I take another reed out of the box until I get a good
> one. I play half a dozen reed instruments and don't have time
> to constantly work on reeds.
>
>
> Post Edited (2025-01-13 21:15)
I don't claim to speak for anyone but me, but I suspect that which I am about to express is a shared sentiment among many players.
For me, to buy the right reed to begin with would mean playing on a Legere Synthetic, where IMHO the benefits of consistency come at the expense of, at least for me, such synthetics not being as good as well adjusted cane--as much as synthetics have improved by leaps and bounds since I started playing, and as much as I do use them on occasion.
As Samsinite addresses, even if reed cutting machines didn't produce much variability in their cut, the base product: cane, and the player that plays it present too much variability (even within the single reed itself otherwise cut within the tolerances of a fraction of a human hair: Vandoren's standard--or perhaps I should say goal) that I would find the cost of throwing out reeds that could be adjusted to perform well too expensive relative to the cost of my time.
I appreciate though that your calculus for the cost of your time Lydian may be significantly different than mine. For the record I find Ridenour's ATG approach an extremely fast and effective technique.
Someone can correct me if I have this story wrong but when Drucker was in his prime he was more in your camp Lydian than mine: lacking the time and perhaps (I don't know) provided with reeds gratis, at best doing some minimal balancing with reed rush, where the cost of discarding over working on reeds, especially relative to the cost of his time, was not nearly as worth it to him as it is to me.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2025-01-13 23:20
..just one more thing I'd like to add....
IMHO breaking in reeds is a subject that can't fairly be discussed without a commensurate discussion of how to store them: which for me is a humidity controlled environment with, for example Boveda packs.
Now, whether that comes via Brad Behn's reed storage cases https://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com/product-page/behn-reed-case or a zip lock type plastic bag with these packs and reeds, or something in between, I am of the belief that the more stable the humidity environment you can subject your reeds to, similar to that they experience in play, the less they'll deviate, and the quicker they will hone in on that they were destined to be such that physical adjustment will present a greater factor in their change in play than merely playing them over time.
This isn't to say that a great reed can't even be left on the mouthpiece (not that I recommend that) or a lousy one is destined for greatness simply because you keep your reeds in the "fitness center's steam room." But that humidity control, rather than a panacea, just makes for one less nuisance variable.
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Author: Samsinite
Date: 2025-01-14 00:18
SecondTry wrote:
> IMHO breaking in reeds is a subject that can't fairly be
> discussed without a commensurate discussion of how to store
> them: which for me is a humidity controlled environment with,
> for example Boveda packs.
>
> Now, whether that comes via Brad Behn's reed storage cases
> https://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com/product-page/behn-reed-case
> or a zip lock type plastic bag with these packs and reeds, or
> something in between, I am of the belief that the more stable
> the humidity environment you can subject your reeds to, similar
> to that they experience in play, the less they'll deviate, and
> the quicker they will hone in on that they were destined to be
> such that physical adjustment will present a greater factor in
> their change in play than merely playing them over time.
I agree that the way in which one stores their reeds is important, probably more important that deciding to adjust bad reeds or throw them away. There is some sort of initial investment in a case (very little if a plastic bag works well, sounds better than nothing and you could put one of those old school reed protector things in one), but I think the humidity pack costs less than replacing reeds more frequently. I recommend buying those 72% humidity packs as a set of 10 for $15, much cheaper than the 2 pack for $6.29, Bodeva is always sold out of 10 packs so I always order them from a reseller (one such is that Brad Behn website above).
I think you hit the nail on the head on time vs cost, someone who is paid very well for their time, might find that anything other than a very quick minor adjustment on a reed is just not worth their time, or someone who just has very little extra time. There are very very good players that do not do major reed work to their reeds, one can usually find at least a few good reeds in each box.
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Author: Jimis4klar
Date: 2025-01-14 00:25
I really like V12s though I find 3 1/2 harder than I like and number 3 softer than I like. 3+ strength doesn't exist unfortunately.
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2025-01-14 00:47
I do what lydian does-- just take it out of the box and play it. I usually take 3 or so out and see which is best for the next rehearsal/concert. I keep the others as spares. On rare occasions I use my pen knife to shave the edges if one is a bit hard.
The Most Advanced Clarinet Book--
tomheimer.ampbk.com/ Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001315, Musicnotes product no. MB0000649.
Boreal Ballad for unaccompanied clarinet-Sheet Music Plus item A0.1001314.
Musicnotes product no. MNO287475
Post Edited (2025-01-14 05:15)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2025-01-14 01:04
It is NOT about tolerances, it is about cane being a piece of wood with areas of variable density. But before you get there, you need to have the wood perform the way it will when playing it regularly.........which is hydrated.
First question the the Marcelllus method nay sayers: How old will you be in 28 days?
Second question: How old will you be in 28 days if you DON'T break your reeds in (only seconds per reed per day mind you........watch the whole video)?
Last observation. If you start ANOTHER batch of reeds (batch 2) just a few days later, how many days will it be before that batch is ready to play? The answer is......... a few days later.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2025-01-14 03:42
Paul Aviles wrote:
> It is NOT about tolerances, it is about cane being a piece of
> wood with areas of variable density. But before you get
> there, you need to have the wood perform the way it will when
> playing it regularly.........which is hydrated.
>
>
>
> First question the the Marcelllus method nay sayers: How old
> will you be in 28 days?
>
>
> Second question: How old will you be in 28 days if you DON'T
> break your reeds in (only seconds per reed per day mind
> you........watch the whole video)?
>
>
> Last observation. If you start ANOTHER batch of reeds (batch
> 2) just a few days later, how many days will it be before that
> batch is ready to play? The answer is......... a few days
> later.
>
>
> .............Paul Aviles
>
It's absolutely fair of you Paul to point out that once one cycles through a single iteration of the Marcellus method, working at reeds daily during that waiting period, that the marginal wait for additional reeds is no more than the next day after than period, and the day after that etc.
Of course no such wait period exists for methods that focus more on adjustment than break in.
But more to my interest: I would gladly adopt whatever method produced the most "good reeds" which is a weighted average standard to my mind that quantifies the availability of good reeds that doesn't simply take into account the number of reeds produced, but how long they last: the Marcellus method suggesting its strength lies in longevity if not pure numbers of good reeds.
Do you find this method to truly work by this weighted average standard?
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2025-01-14 03:51
There was a time I adjusted reeds. I don't mess with it anymore. I find a good reed and play it. Occasionally, (if the rail on one side is especially out of line on an otherwise perfect reed or something like that) I'll scrape it with my fingernail or knife. That's pretty rare.
Something that's lost in most reed discussions (other than passing acknowledgment) is how inconsistent our own anatomy is. It changes constantly...not just the muscle, but the tissue on top, and the teeth underneath, et al.
We're even terrible at being consistent at reed placement and ligature position/adjustment.
...but we always get stuck on the reed being the problem.
I find it is far easier to adjust me to the reed than the other way around.
Fuzzy
;^)>>>
[Edit: corrected spelling and punctuation]
Post Edited (2025-01-14 03:54)
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Author: Ed
Date: 2025-01-14 05:07
Quote:
Why not buy the right reed to begin with so you don't have to do anything to them? If you scrape every reed, then your reeds are too hard.
For me, it is not about "the right reed". I use the appropriate strength and cut, but I have probably always adjusted reeds to some degree. Nearly all reeds need a little work to be perfectly balanced, or to be perfectly flat or to tailor the response. I do that to fit the mouthpiece, my playing style, or what type of playing I need to do. Knowing how to make these relatively minor adjustments make the reeds response, color and playability night and day from how they come out of the box.
I have tried Legere and some other synthetics, but found that they varied a bit from reed to reed. I also never cared for the feel, sound or the response. I always prefer cane.
To answer the original question- I generally do slight adjustments during the break in period. If a reed is particularly unbalanced, I might do more, but I prefer to go a little at a time as they will often change over the break in process.
Post Edited (2025-01-14 19:01)
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Author: donald
Date: 2025-01-14 12:30
< https://clarinet.org/james-gillespie-library-weekly-roundup-reeds/ >
For starters.
I have found, over 45 years of reed adjusting, the Henry Larsen "Reed Connection Part 1 and 2" to be the most useful (though there's one analogy in there I disagree with, otherwise it's all really helpful.
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2025-01-14 17:31
Does anyone have links to studies of what breaking in a reed actually does to the cane fibers to benefit the reed, depicting what changes happen to them on the microscopic level? My search failed to find anything. I'm aware of the general wisdom on the topic; it just would be nice to know the physical reasons supporting it. If any.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2025-01-14 19:22
I would have to dig around for an article. YEARS ago a student passed an article to me about cane that was from some scientific journal. Not sure if I would still have a copy or be able to locate it online.
Over the years I have heard so much contradictory and anecdotal advice- use water, use saline instead of water, soak for a long period, soak only a minute or two, break in over a couple of days, break in over a month or months, thoroughly dry, use humidifiers so they never fully dry, rub or polish the vamp and the back, never polish/rub the vamp, etc, etc.
I always feel that it is important for the player to find a process that works well for them and be consistent. If your process is always different, it makes it hard to evaluate the reeds in a predictable fashion. I know players who will pull a reed out of the box and play a rehearsal or performance. That never worked for me, but if that works for someone else, that is fine.
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2025-01-14 21:41
I remember when 2 scientists at Farnborough, England working on the Concorde engine development decided, as amateur clarinettists, to produce a synthetic reed. I lived within about 3 miles from the facility and eventually a sample was obtained which proved to sound like a saxophone in pain. I believe the material may have been carbon fibre but we're talking about a long time ago.
So, despite the scientific knowledge, I believe the humble clarinet reed defeated them. I can't play any of the modern synthetics and produce anything close to my normal sound so, along with the sample variation, they are a non-starter for me.
There is also something about being able to fine tune a reed for a location and also having different reed characteristics for different repertoire and ensemble size or genre specifics that may be encountered.
My recipe is to have reed-friendly mouthpieces and to ensure I don't buy a mouthpiece which is very difficult to match a reed with. In my case it means either a Vandoren BD5, a Grabner 'Virtuoso or a Pillinger. The same reed usually works similarly across all 3 although, once in serious preparation, I would tend to leave a chosen reed with 1 particular mouthpiece.. The Grabner and BD5 have dramatically improved the number of really playable reeds I find. Using Vandoren V12 - strength 3 I disregard any that are too soft and can usually adjust anything else to precisely what I require. The retirement of Walter Grabner strengthens my belief that it can be best to find success with a mass produced mouthpiece. Grabner has gone and I know several pros who are anxious as they wanted to refresh what they had been using. I have been on 2 waiting lists for mouthpieces when either the maker died or stopped working.
I usually soak 3 reeds for a short time, try them briefly and sometimes mark them with my initial reaction if they seem promising. I try not to write negative things on reeds at this stage in case I things change! The next day, I play them for longer and by the 3rd day I can usually play them for something like 20-30 minutes. The key thing is not to overplay so that the reed does not become too wet at the tip. Thereafter I ensure that I play the chosen reeds a little every day. Days missed out shorten the life of the reed - it must retain moisture to some degree to blow at its best.
With perhaps 2 out of the 3 reeds working OK I introduce I new reed a day into the system and review the previous reeds each day. I store all of them in a Howarth wooden holder that has a glass plate within.
That's it really. No Ridenour or Marcellus method for me I'm afraid.
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Author: lydian
Date: 2025-01-15 00:06
I do admit to adjusting a few reeds that are really off but still salvageable. But I don't adjust every reed. I just keep trying until I find a good one that plays out of the box. That's typically 3 out of 10 for me.
I don't care for the tone, feel or response of Legere either. Yes, I'll play them when I have to, but I don't like it.
Bottom line, in my experience, it is possible to find a few reeds that play fine out of the box, so that's what I do, no tweaking, no break-in.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2025-01-15 00:17
lydian wrote:
> I do admit to adjusting a few reeds that are really off but
> still salvageable. But I don't adjust every reed. I just keep
> trying until I find a good one that plays out of the box.
> That's typically 3 out of 10 for me.
>
> I don't care for the tone, feel or response of Legere either.
> Yes, I'll play them when I have to, but I don't like it.
>
> Bottom line, in my experience, it is possible to find a few
> reeds that play fine out of the box, so that's what I do, no
> tweaking, no break-in.
One thing I hadn't considered from your first post here Lydian, and probably should have--much that I can't quantify it--is your...in fact each person's own willingness to accept various degrees of imperfection from the cane we play.
To rephrase, your tendency against reed adjustment may just as much speak to the cost of your time to do so being higher than mine and that of other players, as it may be (I simply don't know) your, or any player's tendency against adjustment if that same player tends to excel at the acceptance of the imperfection that is clarinet play, from reeds to intonation and everything in between.
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Author: Alexey
Date: 2025-01-21 16:18
I tried a lot of ways of adjusting and breaking reeds.
My takeaways in random order:
1) We have to learn to be flexible to be able to play reeds that are a bit softer or a bit harder than our ideal reeds' strength. To do that we should rotate reeds and welcome light discrepancy in strength. Meaning we should not adjust reed to the "perfect" strength. In some weather conditions or acoustic conditions, our "perfect" reed could play badly.
2) We have to have a feeling of the reed being waterlogged. Meaning that there is no predetermined time of how much we could play brand-new reed. Sometimes it can be a couple of minutes, sometimes it can be 10 minutes, or even 15 minutes.
2) Though, playing on too hard reeds for a long time can introduce bad habits and also can ruin reeds more quickly. So if the reed is too hard it seems the best approach is to increase playing time very gradually ( like 30 sec.,1 min., 2 min., 4 min., 8 min., etc). Also, important to play with fresh embouchure. Also, after the first couple of sessions, the reed can be adjusted. I mean on the third or fourth day (when we play on a reed for 2 or 4 minutes) we can make a reed a bit softer before playing. Not to the "perfect strength" but to "a bit more comfortable strength". Next session try the reed and if it's too hard yet then make it a bit softer again.
3) Balancing reed is extremely important. Even if the reed is hard when it's balanced it responds better and sounds better. So fixing imbalance ideally should go before fixing strength. However, sometimes a reed is so hard that it's hardly possible to understand/feel if the reed is imbalanced.
4) It seems that reeds don't like "spot adjustments" it's more like "zone adjustments". It seems that working on larger areas could create better blending between zones and could improve response.
5) Sometimes just one sandpaper movement is enough to make the reed better. So don't do too many rubbing motions ( or scraping motions if using a knife) without testing the reed.
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Author: Jimis4klar
Date: 2025-01-24 01:12
Thank you Alexey. So, your take is to play the new reed couple of times and then adjust it? Others mentioned that reed adjustments should start at the very beginning of reed's break-in process..
Post Edited (2025-01-24 01:14)
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Author: Alexey
Date: 2025-01-24 19:47
Hey Jimis4klar!
That's right. But most of my brand-new reeds are about ready to play. I mean I can take it and play it immediately. I don't need to adjust the strength of the reed. So I mostly balance them (what makes them more responsive and kind of softer).
If a reed is really hard, I usually sand the flat part (the bottom of the reed) on sandpaper. I can do this even on the first day if the reed is too hard and uncomfortable to play.
But usually, I start adjusting journey from the third day.
However, if adjustments are not drastic, it's possible to start from the very first day. As I said earlier, "Adjust not to perfection but to make just a bit more comfortable."
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Author: Jimis4klar
Date: 2025-01-26 00:13
This seems more ideal process to me. First playing times, a new reed almost always feels resistant until It gets broken in to some degree and then you can tell how much It needs adjusting. Sanding the reed from the first 15sec playing is misleading.
Post Edited (2025-01-26 00:14)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2025-01-26 19:04
I agree wholeheartedly with Jimis4klar. As the reeds are "breaking in" (how ever long your method is) they change rather dramatically as to which are the best and which are the worst. If you're adjusting a reed that has not "settled," there is no telling what it WOULD HAVE BEEN. It's a piece of wood NOT a piece of plastic.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Alexey
Date: 2025-01-26 23:38
For almost all of my clarinetist life, I thought the same as you Jimis4klar, and you Paul.
Now, I am not so sure. For now, I know I played harder reeds than needed. During the break-in process, I struggled and fought against the reeds, trying to make them work the way I wanted. These reeds changed drastically during the break-in process. The most noticeable change was that they became softer.
Now when I play softer reeds I notice that reeds don't change a lot, and sometimes could become even harder after several days of the break-in period.
So now I almost believe in the idea that we can make an almost ideal reed from day one and this reed will not change a lot after the break-in period. Or changes will be natural changes when the weather changes.
I even played brand-new reed for about an hour trying to make a video with high altissimo. I was sure that the reed would be dead after that. And indeed it didn't play well the next day. But after that, it played well.
So I say it again now I almost believe in ideas ( I think I got it from Tom Ridenour) that we should not play on unbalanced reeds, that most reeds are unbalanced, and if a reed is balanced it will play well despite of fact that we do adjustments from the very beginning.
Bottom line is that anyone can "spoil" a couple of reeds trying to adjust them to almost ideal from the very first day and see if it works or not.
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2025-01-27 02:50
I don't know the answer to this question, but I do wonder....
If the evolution of a reed from packaging to garbage pail or reed case is subject to considerable change during this process are we to take the air deflection tests of manufacturers
...which see how much a known pressure of air deflects the just cut dry reed, and
....from this reading assign a strength value: the less the deflection the higher the number
...with an extreme "grain of salt" that might only be slightly better than the random or no assignment of strength numbers?
Or perhaps is ballparking strength this way a pretty decent metric (at least better than nothing at all or other methods that can make speedy determinations) where within this strength range we otherwise experience the wide variability of breaking in a reed that is cited.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2025-01-27 12:34
SecondTry wrote:
> Or perhaps is ballparking strength this way a pretty decent
> metric (at least better than nothing at all or other methods
> that can make speedy determinations) where within this strength
> range we otherwise experience the wide variability of breaking
> in a reed that is cited.
As is said often here and elsewhere, each cane reed has its own individual and to some extent unique physical properties that make the effects of repeated wetting and drying somewhat unpredictable. The strength rating assigned by reed manufacturers is relative - mostly to the rest of that manufacturer's reed products. All it can do is make the player's choice of reeds less blind and make the assortments that come in a box of reeds less random. If I know that #3.5 Rue lepic generally works best on my current mouthpiece, I don't need to waste time and cash on #2s, #3s or #5s. If the general strength of #3.5 Rues seems to change over a period of time, I can experiment with the next strength up or down to try to accommodate the change. Limited in reliability as the system may be, that's far more efficient than buying a box of 10 or 25 or 50 unsorted reeds and finding the half dozen that work for me.
I have to say that, when I open a new box of Vandoren reeds these days, or a box of any of several other brands, if I've bought the right strength to begin with, I get quite high consistency among the reeds on first blow. For me the differences come out of the wetting-drying process, not the box. IMO the manufacturers are achieving a much higher level of consistency than ever before. They can't control what happens to the reeds once I've started to use them.
Karl
Post Edited (2025-01-27 18:09)
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Author: symphony1010
Date: 2025-01-27 15:23
Agreed Karl. Excellent post - reeds are the best they've ever been in my lifetime.
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Author: Jimis4klar
Date: 2025-01-29 11:45
Reeds are consistent but there should be in more intermediate strengths available, like Rigotti does perfectly by having Light, Medium, Strong. I find there's quite a space even between V12 3 1/2 and 3 1/2+.. If there would be also V12s in Light, Medium, Strong, I think that would be the greatest thing ever for us. We'd probably not need to ever make adjustments to reeds, we'd just experiment with various intermediate strengths and problem of ideal strength would be always solved. (I mention V12 cause they're my preferred reeds).
Post Edited (2025-01-29 11:48)
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Author: karusel
Date: 2025-01-29 15:30
Being quite new to the clarinet I thought at first that reed is a reed, different strength, sure, different companies make reeds that play a little different, but within one brand, same strength they should be almost identical, save for the varying cane quality, right? Well, no. I was quite taken aback when I found a brand new reed was almost unplayable and even though I'm unexperienced I could swear, that the other five I've opened at the same time, had variations between them, some seemed a little easier to play, a little better sounding than others. So, now I'm supposed to spend good 30€ on reeds, sort them from best to worst, and just throw away the bottom four?
I find sanding them like Tom Ridenour does in his videos a very small investment.
As for breaking them in, my teacher tells me to open 6 at a time, wet them and put them in the box with the wet sponge which keeps optimum humidity. Then after a week or so, to play one after the other in one session 5-10minutes each. Then, if I remember correctly, play them for 20 or so minutes each, then half an hour and then they're considered broken in. Then you rotate the six of them, one per session.
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The Clarinet Pages
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