 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: SecondTry
Date: 2024-11-09 21:57
Maybe wrongly, I've always anecdotally assigned the cause for reeds that are unbalanced at their tip not to differences in thickness from one side to the other as a product of cutting machine error, but more so to the fact that a cane reed is a piece of organic matter that is not of constant resistance not simply from one reed to the next, but inter- (i.e. withing the same) reed.
Of course there's nothing saying that both factors can't play a role: cutting and organic differences within a reed, in addition to others like a less than near perfectly balanced set up mouthpiece rails. I'm entirely open to the cause being multifactorial.
But that said, having never taken an unbalanced reed to a set of really accurate and precise calipers, I wonder what people think (or know) as it regards to the cause of such unbalance.
Perhaps Vandoren's claim to cut reeds to their profile with tolerances of less than a human hair is more that they aspire to than actual.
https://youtu.be/XvmfrTsC7GU?si=4N7Rqi2jlS1nuElY&t=114
I simply don't know but suspect that quality assurance testing and blade sharpening play a role.
TIA.
Post Edited (2024-11-09 22:03)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2024-11-09 22:47
YUP!!! You got it
Wood is variable in grain, density, pliability. That's why you take a reed knife (or weapon of choice) and reduce (in some way, at some point ) the harder side until they match. This is just life as a reed player.
Precise tolerances will only ensure the dimensions which is, as you rightly state, only one of many other factors of hardness.
And don't forget, some cane reed just stink. Don't waste your time with the ones that don't work.
Finally there was a Broadway doubler who posted a 20 minute video of the Marcellus method to break in reeds. You basically only toot a few notes a day, avoiding notes in the clarion or higher, for 28 days. At the end, after arranging them in order (best to worst each day) you come out on the other side with "bullet proof reeds" that last.........YEARS!!!!!
...............Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: SecondTry
Date: 2024-11-10 01:27
Thanks Paul.
Is it regards that video, was it this?
https://youtu.be/XmTL_AOEOiQ?si=Op4sdA9_HKmEwS0D
If so, I watched this a while back and left the video not so much skeptical but with an anecdote:
"Why did Marcellus' reeds need to last 15 years....? Because that's how long it takes using his method to break them in."
Of course this is an wicked exaggeration but nonetheless speaks to the downside of this approach.
If reeds cost $10 each and there where no synthetics, then perhaps this approach might make more sense for me. But I'd rather adjust them, and subject them to shorter lives, and bring them up to speed faster.
Maybe I should be more patient but I tend to allocate my limited supply of patience to the small gains made from hours of practice. (lol)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-11-10 14:37
I once saw an interesting video on YouTube ( Which sadly I can no longer seem to find) in which an old gent who claims he worked testing and sourcing reeds for Leblanc ( among other things), recounts how he went to France and ended up with a small reed manufacturer with only one cutting machine. He said he worked with them, testing the reeds and adjusting the machine until it was producing fine and highly consistent reeds. He then returned to the US. and claims that every reed in every box was good for a time, until presumably the small company had to overhaul the machine and so lost that fine calibration. So basically his conviction on the matter was that when we get a good reed in a box, it's because that machine happened to be in good calibration and the bad reeds in the box came off a poorly calibrated machine, but because most manufacturers have multiple machines, what you get in a single box comes from a number of these machines. He struck me as a venerable and scientifically minded old gentleman whose motivation to make the video was based on sharing a rather unique set of facts which he felt pretty much proved the real reason behind the typical reed inconsistency.
Has anybody else seen that? ..... I found this guy very knowledgeable, sincere and convincing.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Alexey
Date: 2024-11-10 16:54
IMHO, machine that is well calibrated is good. But this calibration should be related to reed thickness in different areas of the reed. It has nothing to do with different density and/or number of fibers at different areas of reed.
Also, I think most of us know that reeds of strength 2 have the same thickness as reeds of strength 5. The difference is in fibers/density.
That's why we still need to balance reeds sometimes. Even if reed is made with the best calibrated machined left or right side of the reed can be more dense/stiff.
Also, keep in mind that our embouchures are not perfect as well and kind of unbalanced.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: SecondTry
Date: 2024-11-10 16:58
Alexey wrote:
> IMHO, machine that is well calibrated is good. But this
> calibration should be related to reed thickness in different
> areas of the reed. It has nothing to do with different density
> and/or number of fibers at different areas of reed.
>
> Also, I think most of us know that reeds of strength 2 have
> the same thickness as reeds of strength 5. The difference is in
> fibers/density.
>
> That's why we still need to balance reeds sometimes. Even if
> reed is made with the best calibrated machined left or right
> side of the reed can be more dense/stiff.
>
> Also, keep in mind that our embouchures are not perfect as well
> and kind of unbalanced.
Absolutely, as are the rails of our mouthpiece often less than perfect.
Show me the cane reed manufacturer that produces a perfectly cut cane reed and, given the imperfection and lack of symmetry within any single reed itself, and I will show your a machine that produces unbalanced reeds.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Luuk ★2017
Date: 2024-11-11 17:01
That 'old gent' must be Tom Ridenour.
Regards,
Luuk
Philips Symphonic Band
The Netherlands
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JTJC
Date: 2024-11-11 18:20
With modern technology, would it really be so difficult to apply whatever test currently used for reed strength to each side of the reed blade? And follow that by a second pass of the cutter which took a shave off the strong side of the blade, proportional to the excess strength. There's more money in not doing that and filling boxes with a relatively wide range of reed strengths, some of which will never be used by a player who uses the marked strength of reed.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Julian ibiza
Date: 2024-11-12 00:36
< That 'old gent' must be Tom Ridenour.>
No!...... wasn't Tom.
Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Alexey
Date: 2024-11-12 01:12
JTJC wrote:
> With modern technology, would it really be so difficult to apply whatever test
> currently used for reed strength to each side of the reed blade?
> And follow that by a second pass of the cutter which took a shave off
> the strong side of the blade, proportional to the excess strength.
>
I don't think it makes a lot of sense. As was mentioned before our embouchures are "unbalanced"/not symmetric. Mouthpieces also can be imperfect. So perfect reed still can be imperfect for some particular player (my belief is that it will happen to most of us).
So we have to learn how to make imperfect reeds at least good enough and learn how to adjust ourselves to those reeds.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kdk
Date: 2024-11-12 01:25
JTJC wrote:
> With modern technology, would it really be so difficult to
> apply whatever test currently used for reed strength to each
> side of the reed blade? And follow that by a second pass of the
> cutter which took a shave off the strong side of the blade,
> proportional to the excess strength.
The biggest problem with trying to do this is that the imbalance may be caused by only a narrow area of the strong side. Unless the vamp was actually cut badly with some kind of hump in the middle of one side, shaving (or scraping or sanding) the entire side of the reed may weaken other areas than the part that was too stiff.
Karl
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2024-11-12 13:38
Karl, you are right that uneven stiffness is often located only at a certain area of the vamp, not along its entire length. Still, as I understand some popular reed balancing techniques, as the Ridenour ATG, it involves testing only the open G and then sanding only the upper half of the stuffy side of the vamp (I'm not using the ATG myself and have only seen some of the demo videos, so maybe I'm not correct - but that's how it looks like).
Thus a machine like the one JTJC suggested could do a similar job - thus saving some time for the player, leaving only possible finer adjustments to him/her. To me a well balanced middle register would be at least a better starting point, than the whole reed - and thus the whole scale - completely unbalanced.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Luuk ★2017
Date: 2024-11-12 13:54
The ATG system comes with a DVD which explains that at least three notes should be tested, one in every register, and points out five areas of the reed to be worked on. It also explains that this is only a starting point.
Regards,
Luuk
Philips Symphonic Band
The Netherlands
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: graham
Date: 2024-11-12 17:48
Some unbalanced reeds work remarkably better if you slightly angle them across the facing. The harder side more into the window, and the softer side more across the rail.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kdk
Date: 2024-11-12 19:30
Micke Isotalo wrote:
> Karl, you are right that uneven stiffness is often located only
> at a certain area of the vamp, not along its entire length.
> Still, as I understand some popular reed balancing techniques,
> as the Ridenour ATG, it involves testing only the open G and
> then sanding only the upper half of the stuffy side of the vamp
That's why ATG is only one of my reed tools, not my only one.
>
> Thus a machine like the one JTJC suggested could do a similar
> job - thus saving some time for the player, leaving only
> possible finer adjustments to him/her. To me a well balanced
> middle register would be at least a better starting point, than
> the whole reed - and thus the whole scale - completely
> unbalanced.
>
Whatever works for an individual player...works. Balancing has to do with producing uniform vibration across the entire vamp. Hard spots cause instability - resistance, squeaks, fuzziness, etc
Karl
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
