 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: beejay
Date: 2001-07-23 15:14
I'm interested to know what others think of using a closed mouthpiece like the 5RV with relatively soft reeds. The conventional wisdom, I know, is that these MPs usually take harder reeds, 3.5 and up. But I learned recently that Jacques Lancelot, whose tone I particularly admire, always played on 5RVs with 2.5 reeds. What would be the advantages and drawbacks of that?
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-07-23 15:30
Since not all 2.5 Reeds's are created equal, & allowing that you were carrying this thought out to its logical end --- you would also need to identify the reed brand.
e.g. a Morre' 2.5 is a Vandoren 5. Some of the Rico Grand Concert (past & present & different models) a 2.5 was at least the equivalent of a Vandoren 3.5 & Rico 4.25.
I think, across the board & allowing for finding a good one, the 5RV is a great mouthpiece. No tricks. Many a good young player has learned on it.
What was it that Bonade said about finding & using a medium-faced mouthpiece?
Best,
mw
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-07-23 16:14
The downside of a softer reed is that they tend to "close up" or "go limp" on you after a couple of pieces. But, if you're wanting to try the softer reed, you might try the Vandoren V12 2 1/2. That is one that a lot of pros are using now and really liking a lot. The V12 has an extra "cut" that makes it a bit harder than the standard 2 1/2.
My philosophy for the last 40 years has worked quite well for me--I play what works best for me and gives me the best tone. What works for others may not work for me due to individual embouchoure "quirks" or habits.
The softer reeds do give a nice warm, creamy tone--but don't always work for some pieces that are in the altisimo a lot. You'll probably need more of them lined up on your stand so you can switch them out as they "go limp."
Also, there may be a disadvantage as to volume.
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Author: beejay
Date: 2001-07-23 16:24
Brenda, Thanks for your observations. I don't think lack of volume would be a problem as far as my long-suffering wife is concerned.
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2001-07-23 17:21
It alos depends on how much mouthpiece do they take in the mouth and how much pressure is put on the reed.
I think playing a 2 1/2 on a 5RV is definitely possible and can give you a very nice sound but requires very good control.
I think a lot of english player like to play soft reeds too...
Unfortunately for me, I never manage to get the 5th and 7th partials notes quite in tune with such soft reeds...
-S
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Author: Gregory Smith
Date: 2001-07-23 17:37
Mark said:
"...a Morre' 2.5 is a Vandoren 5."
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Perhaps this is a typo. My own experience with playing the Morre 2.5 strength (12.5 tip width German cut) for about 10 years prior to playing the Vandoren V12 3.5 - for the last 15 years or so - is that they are of equivalent strength.
G. Smith
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Author: beejay
Date: 2001-07-23 18:43
I believe Lancelot played on the plain Vandoren 2.5, at least according to my instructor, who was a pupil of his.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2001-07-23 18:47
Greg is one of the professionals of whom I spoke when I mentioned the Vandoren V12s. They work great with his mouthpieces, I might add. So, you could probably have good results with the V12s at either the 2 1/2 or 3 strength.
Of course, you might want to go to a mouthpiece with a bit more "open" tip like the 5 RV Lyre. A few reeds will be cheaper, of course.
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-07-23 19:34
Greg, it's _NOT_ a typo.
I have a box of 2 1/4 & 2 1/2 Anches. These are the REAL deal. The 2 1/4 is equivalent to a 4 to 4-1/2 in Vandoren. The 2 1/2 is equivalent to a Vandoren Traditional 5. I had a box of 3's that someone was kind enough to tajke off my hands. (That person was a 5 1/2 "BITER" ... who later called me somewhat frustrated for the 1st time in his life)
OH, & if somebody doubts me. These PLANKS of wood were purchased in the late 1970's to early 1980's by Carl Marks. I believe that Carl was the sole U S importer at the time ( ... or the last one remaining, depending upon one's point of view )
Call Maria Marks @ Marks Music in PA & she'll gladly sell anbody the 2 1/2 or 3 Anches! (they can't give the 3's away, I'd warrant) Be ready for the $29.95 + s/h price tag!
Best,
mw
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-07-23 19:35
BTW: They come 12 to the box. [ Drops your unit price from $3.00 to $2.50 ] : )
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Author: Gregory Smith
Date: 2001-07-23 20:53
Mark,
The reeds that you now have are not representative of the strength that I mention from the same time period. The quality of the cane from the shipments that one orders now, were, back 15 -30 years ago the reeds of poorer quality that were not utilised - they are now leftovers. They are not representative of the strength that were utilised back then because the cane density or cut was off in those particular shipments making them feel much heavier.
Whenever a new shipment of Morres came in to Carl Marks Sr. he sent me a few sample boxes. They varied quite widely in strength from shipment to shipment throughout the year, so much so that reeds stamped 2 1/2 one shipment played beautifully throughout almost an entire box of 12 while the next shipment did not play at all because the cane simply didn't vibrate at all - no matter what you did to them. Of course I and every other person stocked up on the reeds that vibrated -passing the other shipments.
I think that the reeds that did not vibrate at all is what's left (that's my experience with them). So to say that the presently available old Morre reeds in 2 1/2 play like Vandoren 5's is true - you're right. But they are not representative of what professional players considered playable - ones that were vibrating at all - equivalent to the modern V12 3.5 or, at the most V12 4.
Therefore, it would be inaccurate for present day players to assume that the presently sold 2 1/2's were representative of the strength considered playable 15-30 years ago.
G. Smith
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-07-23 21:15
Without a doubt these Morre' reeds (now) play like a stick of wood. However, I have run them through a ReeDual & using a V-12 as the guide reed, they have played very well after adjustment (allowing that ver few reeds are perfect) That is, they vibrate just fine after being reworked. Of course, considering the price & the fact they have to be reworked ... that spells a poor value. However, I can state that these reeds last a long time, compared to today's commercial reeds.
The 2 1/4 Anches (which were in limited supply last I inquired) did not require any adjustment, except for (minor) balancing. They (now in these leftover batches) are the equivalent of the Vandoren Tradional 3 1/2 to 4 in strength.
Best,
mw
PS - These Morre' reeds make for a _wonderful_ guide reed in the ReeDual and (Robert Dilutis' Reed Machine)
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2001-07-24 01:53
I heard Karl Leister uses reeds of the same softness. It may be interesting to find out what sotfness of reeds other famous clarinetists use. It may blow away the superstiton that fhe harder, the better.
I prefered B40, designed by Guy Deprus(spelling?), with traditional Vandoren 2.5.
I found recently its 'hand-select' quality came back to their best in 1970's.
I do not think Jacque Lancelot uses an off-the-shelf 5RV. (In fact no professionals will use off-the-shelf mouthpieces.) He must have resurfaced it inside and outside by himself or a dependable craftman.
P.S. In Japan Jacque Lancelot is promoting Glotin reeds. But he uses Vandoren personally. ???
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Author: Fred
Date: 2001-07-24 02:27
I'd like to add something to Sylvain's comments. Most of us understand the basic differences between a large tip opening (Vandoren B-45) and a small tip opening (5RV). I was pretty ignorant about facing lengths until I played a mp that I knew played quite well for someone else . . . and I couldn't get a sound out of it.
I played a Vandoren 5RV for years and now play a refaced Buffet/Ched mp. These mp's, I believe, both have a short facing length, but the mp I couldn't play had a very long facing length. The primary reason for my inability to play it was that I didn't take enough mp into my mouth. Therefore, the pressure points of the embouchure were over a softer part of the reed that was unsupported by the lay. Had I chosen to take more mp in, the pressure points would have contacted a stiffer portion of the reed and wouldn't have closed off. (The player that played well on the mp was also a bass player . . . takes lots of mp in.)
The point is . . . it may be possible to play a 5RV with softer reeds if you take a lot of mp into your mouth. You would then contact the reed where it is more fully supported by the lay and also at a stiffer portion of the cane. I think this might work. All theoretical, however . . . I haven't tested it.
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Author: Gregory Smith
Date: 2001-07-24 23:33
Mark said:
"PS - These Morre' reeds make for a wonderful guide reed in the ReeDual..."
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Yes, I find the same. This goes to the point that the dimensions of the reed were terrific (of course in conjunction with the proper quality/density of the cane).
With the Morre' cut as a model, and if one can find the proper quality/density cane nowadays to start with, it should be possible to come up with a pretty close replica of the original Morre'.
Gregory Smith
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Author: mw
Date: 2001-07-25 02:56
Greg said:
" ... if one can find the proper quality/density cane nowadays to start with ..."
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AMEN. Price certainly isn't an indicator of quality when it comes to Cane. I've tried expensive Glotin that was so hard it should have been used on Oilfield drilling rigs. But have found cheaper Rigotti to be a godsend. Then the really, really cheap stuff ($15.00 a pound) wouldn't make good toothpicks. There are LOTS of small cane shops in France .... one I have used is Donati. I just got some cane from Proboe which I hope bears "fruit".
Best,
mw
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