 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: LaurieBell
Date: 2020-07-13 07:19
One of our local community bands is starting up again this week, and will be splitting the rehearsal time between brass and winds so there is room to social distance.
I wondered if anyone has tried to play clarinet while wearing one of those plastic a face shields?
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Author: Tom H
Date: 2020-07-13 07:27
I have one and can see that playing with it on wouldn't be a problem. I haven't tried it because my usual Band summer series in NYC area is a no go (plus the border is closed). Anyway, I'm not sure the shield would be too much of a deterrent when sitting in close quarters at a band rehearsal. Even with distancing remember that you are (probably) indoors. Don't know for sure, but I think a mask, not a shield, is required for air travel (at least here in Canada....).
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Post Edited (2020-07-13 07:29)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-07-13 07:49
The Berlin Philharmonic has done some audienceless concerts with a few winds at a much greater distance from each other (and any other players) than with the string players. There is some information (disputed of course) that there is aerosol transmission of Covid, meaning that the virus is small enough to float on very small droplets through the air and be potent enough to be infectious.
Personally I would not attend a wind rehearsal yet while local state numbers are going up:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/coronavirus-us-cases.html
You can scroll to the bottom of this resource and click on individual states to even peruse the individual county numbers.
Make your own decisions, but do that staying informed.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: Late_returner
Date: 2020-07-13 17:53
I wonder what the audiences will think of a bank of wind players blowing out at them ?
Might be string quartets only for a year or two .?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-07-13 19:40
I think that is a good point, at least as it pertains to the audience's perception of a threat (if wind players truly thrust air toward an audience, you'd feel rushes of air all the time at the front of a band which doesn't happen).
The real threat is to all the performers who, to a man, must take a huge gulp of air after each phrase played.
....................Paul Aviles
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Author: anonrob
Date: 2020-07-13 19:55
The face shields don't do anything to catch the aerosolized particles. Those can just float out around the edges. Even for lecturers, my university is insisting on masks. I will be masked and distanced when teaching lessons. The students will, obviously, not be wearing masks but the instrument may actually capture much of the aerosol. The jury is out on that. https://medicine.uiowa.edu/iowaprotocols/wind-instrument-aerosol-covid-era-covid-19-and-horns-trumpets-trombones-euphoniums-tubas-recorders
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Author: Djudy
Date: 2020-09-03 15:59
It's been over a month since the last post and schools are reopening in the US and all over Europe. Can wind players go back to lessons and rehearsals ? I have seen no specific directives that address this problem; I'm anxious to get back to group playing but there are so many health risks elements in our family that I'm afraid to take the chance.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2020-09-03 17:30
You haven't seen specific directives because there's still been no really definitive information generated by the few studies that are in progress. I don't think anything new has been developed since anonrob's post in mid-July.
String players can wear masks and breathe more or less normally as they play, so the necessary distancing is probably pretty much what's recommended for the general public. I know of a few local string programs that have plans to start live rehearsals again. But the bottom line is that no one really knows if there's extra risk in a band setting, and distancing more than 6 feet in an indoor rehearsal setting takes a lot of space and leaves players far enough apart to make ensemble possibly problematic. Masks are obviously not useable with wind instruments. Shields aren't, either, for brass, flutes or saxes, even if you could fit a clarinet behind one.
I'm glad to be retired and not involved in this kind of decision. The youth music program where I do conduct a band has made the decision for me and cancelled all in-person activities until at least January. My son is a band director at a nearby high school and has been running outdoor rehearsals for marching band but his school is starting out all-virtual, so he's not planning indoor music rehearsals for the near future. Our local instrumental teachers are still undecided about what they'll do, but our schools have also gone all-virtual at least until mid-October, so they have a little time yet to make a decision.
Karl
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Author: Djudy
Date: 2020-09-03 18:37
Here in France, associative music schools are taking inscriptions for the new school year but other than having obtained large gymnasium-like rooms for group rehearsals, no other proposals have been announced for avoiding aerosol transmission.
There is a growing number of cases that implies the importance of aerosol infection simply by normal breathing or speaking, like the case of the 2 bus-load religious retreat , where one symptomatic person infected only those on one bus, and all over the bus seating except by the door - no masks worn and all other group activities brief and/or out doors apart from the long, confined bus ride). Singing or instrument blowing might increase aerosolization and thus infection numbers but those activities are apparently not necessary for some infection to occur.
Professional sports teams are massively testing and going into restricted-contact 'bubbles' in order to be able to get on with work-outs and practice. This protocol may work for professional orchestras as a unit, but would it be feasible to maintain with the amount of teaching and mentoring done by individual musiciens?
If anyone has suggestions to share that could help wind players get back safely to playing, please to continue to update the clarinet community. Perhaps it would be best to continue this discussion in a new topic, like 'covid rehearsal/performance protocoles' ? Many thanks !
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2020-09-03 18:57
This may be a daft idea, but could we just put the whole clarinet in a big bag made from HEPA filter fabric, and have it tight round the sides of the musician's face like a mask? The actual coronavirus itself is larger than the holes in HEPA filter fabric, so if we did that, then the sound would come out of the bag, but the virus particles wouldn't.
It obviously wouldn't look great for a concert but it might be okay for music school, just to get people moving again.
If breathing in was difficult because of CO2 building up in the bag then we could add a valve near the mouth so the force of inhalation draws air in from outside, through the HEPA fabric. There is a filter like that in the 3D printed respirator mask shown at this site: https://www.makermask.com/
Sorry, I have no idea if that would be a bonkers idea, but just wondered if anyone had tried it.
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Author: johng ★2017
Date: 2020-09-03 19:16
Thanks, everyone for the new information. I am wondering if schools might try for small groups rather than full bands or orchestras. Chamber music with 3 to 15 players could be done with lots of distancing....even more than 6 feet would be my choice. There is much to be taught and learned using small ensembles. However, I am personally not ready to jump into musical groups just yet.
John Gibson, Founder of JB Linear Music, www.music4woodwinds.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-09-03 20:26
My wife just showed me an image of a school in Alabama where all the wind players of a band had some form of "bag" over their instruments. I'll try to share if I can get the image
Personally I don't think there is even less aerosol displacement from a wind instrument than singing and perhaps a fifteen foot distance may be enough. But the problem is becomes greater over time and depends on the size of the interior space vs the air circulation.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: clarinetwife
Date: 2020-09-03 20:56
I think the tubing of brass and the reed and the resistance of the woodwinds probably slows down the aerosols quite a lot as long as distancing is practiced. The flute seems to put out the most from what I have read. Our summer band had physically distanced rehearsals with masks being put on when not playing. The conductor wore a face shield when conducting because of the distance to the players and the difficulty the group had understanding her with a mask. She too would put her mask on when stepping off the podium. Bell covers for brass are frequently being requested by school programs. People just have to decide their comfort level once a proposal to rehearse or perform is made.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2020-09-03 21:00
SunnyDaze wrote:
> This may be a daft idea, but could we just put the whole
> clarinet in a big bag made from HEPA filter fabric, and have it
> tight round the sides of the musician's face like a mask?
I'm not sure I understand where your hands and fingers would be with this arrangement. Are you putting openings into the fabric to put your hands through?
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Author: kdk
Date: 2020-09-03 21:10
clarinetwife wrote:
> I think the tubing of brass and the reed and the resistance of
> the woodwinds probably slows down the aerosols quite a lot as
> long as distancing is practiced.
The problem is that it doesn't really matter what either of us *thinks* and using *probably* weakens the argument even more.
What we're all hoping for is definitive research using some kind of imaging or chemical analysis of the air surrounding wind instrument players or some other not yet thought of way of determining what gets into the air and how much, and how long it stays there. So far that hasn't been reported.
> People just have
> to decide their comfort level once a proposal to rehearse or
> perform is made.
Well, of course. And some of that decision will be based on a player's age, physical condition and general health, and the physical conditions of the rehearsal or concert venue. One problem is that you have no control, or any real way of evaluating, the ventilation system in a potential indoor rehearsal space, nor do you control who will be rehearsing with you. It *is* a personal decision and no one should be pushed into one he isn't comfortable with.
Karl
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2020-09-03 21:45
Hi Karl,
Yes I was thinking that that bag could have holes on either sides with elasticated cuffs.
I'm a plant scientist by profession, and have spent a number of years working in microbiology and with genetically modified plants (not for food, but for fundemental research on how roots develop). In the laboratories where I've worked we've been living with a low grade version of the covid-style restrictions for years, and it's surprising the gadgetry that people have come up with to solve these problems.
For example, in the microbiology lab we have a thing called a "flow hood". Its job is to make the air around and above a work desk stay competely sterile while the person is working at it. It means that when the worker plates bacteria onto an agar plate (s)he can be absolutely sure that only the *right* bacteria will go onto the plate. That is a very similar business to making sure we clarinetists don't give the wrong virus to the flautists in the row in front.
It seems to me that if the plant scientists can cope with such things, perhaps we could borrow a bit of their lateral thinking, and perhaps try playing a clarinet in a bag, with cuffs. We need some help from the biologists to measure the aerosols that come out of the bag, but I think they are very much on the case, if we can clarinetists can fine-tune the design of the bag.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2020-09-03 21:48
The flow hood works, btw, by blowing air through a HEPA filter, as far as I know. https://biohackspace.org/2014/07/building-a-diy-flow-hood/
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Author: clarinetwife
Date: 2020-09-03 21:58
Hi, Karl, the studies I have seen have simply made the exhalation show up as fog or mist, you are right that we don't know what sort of viral load we are looking at. And, ventilation does make a big difference. I think those of us who participated wanted to give it a try and didn't want to wait a year to play with others.
Barb
Post Edited (2020-09-03 21:59)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-09-03 21:59
Just exactly how powerful is the direct jet of air coming from a wind instrument whilst it's being played?
And have you seen how stupid people look wearing masks with holes cut in them? Not to mention those pathetic 'bell warmer' things, instrument covers (or plastic bags with holes in them) and other conscious easing devices idiots are prepared to pay ridiculous amounts for when all they do is absolutely bugger all.
Pathetic.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-09-03 22:31
I cannot use the private images but if you can picture what modern black slings look like for broken arms, that's what these things look like over the instruments.
So the physics of wind instruments (as we have discussed quite a bit on this Board of late) is that the air already in the instrument is coxed into an energetic state. Therefore most of what pours out the holes initially is what was standing there in the first place. Of course we are blowing new air into the space and therefore there would be whatever parts per billion of Covid present in the percentage of replacement air.....if we were Covid positive.
Flute would be immediate because a good percentage of the air is blown past the mouthpiece.
I guess I'd have to say on some level the "wind instrument bags" should be somewhat effective.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Djudy
Date: 2020-09-03 22:51
Any physical barrier (bags, masks,etc.) has to protect the musicien as well as their neighbors. Cumbersome barriers will interfere with performance.
At least as far as professional performance (and rehearsal) venues goes, I'll bet they opt for the fume hood solution (the sterile airflow) with renewed air, not recycled. It will be too expensive for schools and associations.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2020-09-03 23:25
My dentist has that flowhood solution actually, now you mention it. He told me last time we visited. I hadn't thought of that for musical venues.
Do you think that safe concerts will become a thing in warmer climates first, since they will be able to perform outside before those of us in the north can? I keep thinking of the big outdoor concert venue that is shown at the end of the film "The sound of music" and wondering if that kind of outdoor venue would be safer.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-09-03 23:59
Every living thing is breathing - both inhaling and exhaling. While social distancing measures will reduce transmission of airborne contagions, masks with holes in them are doing diddly-squat if in close proximity compared to not wearing a mask at all. Even in the sterile environment of an operating theatre there are often other members of hospital staff seen in the background without face masks.
By the way, I'm watching the BBC Proms on telly right now and none of the musicians are wearing stupid masks with holes or bags over their instruments. The lack of an audience is odd as the silence is deafening. The non-wind instrumentalists still breathe as much as wind players - in fact, they probably breathe a lot more than wind players do.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-09-04 01:39
Chris, I don't think anyone says a mask or bag is a barrier, rather it will moderate your aerosol spread and may slow you sucking someone else's cloud closer toward you (in terms of intensity).
I would agree this will not work for performance. In addition to the Proms, Berlin is doing this effectively and safely (as much as any group can).
But certainty over what is going on will have to wait for future historians
............Paul Aviles
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Author: clarinetwife
Date: 2020-09-04 02:08
The numbers will tell the story as well as people begin playing together again. Here in the Boise area the health department was going to look at closing gyms again when we started experiencing our current spike. People really spoke up, and when the numbers were actually run gyms were not found to be a vector for transmission locally. They had been open long enough to have the data for the health department to access.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2020-09-04 03:55
clarinetwife, I think that's a really good point about how we have to try stuff to find out what matters. I completely agree with Paul that so much of this will only be known with hindsight.
Chris - I hear you that you do not want a clarinet bag, and that is fine. My idea was for the other people with different views, who might value it.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-09-04 10:12
Is there really any value in it?
Landfill.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2020-09-04 10:19
Hi Chris,
I think you've made your point and I'll just step away from this now.
Thanks,
Jen
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-09-04 17:50
Attachment: Rehearsal.jpg (62k)
Attachment: Stage view.jpg (63k)
Landfill photos. [granted permission to use]
For those educators that feel taking some steps within our control is better than total disregard for the wellbeing of their students.
.................Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2020-09-04 18:55)
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2020-09-04 22:56
Thanks Paul, that really looks quite nice doesn't it? I hadn't thought of the bag being black with a drawstring at the top. That really looks quite dignified.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2020-09-05 00:41
I was talking to a student's mom last night about SunnyDaze's idea. When Paul posted pictures showing that it already exists, I sent the pics to the parent. She tells me the band director at her daughter's middle school has ordered them for every clarinetist in the band (no, I don't know how many kids that is).
My only question (apart from do the bags really prevent droplet and aerosol spread) is, why doesn't the baritone horn player in the concert hall photo have a bell cover?
Karl
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-09-05 01:01
It makes me wonder which is more contagious and damaging - the coronavirus itself or all this nonsense?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2020-09-05 03:02
Chris P wrote:
> It makes me wonder which is more contagious and damaging - the
> coronavirus itself or all this nonsense?
>
Chris, the point pf the "nonsense" is that it makes people feel safer, as though they're doing *something* to limit the virus's spread. Whether it *is* safer or not hasn't yet been demonstrated one way or the other, but it feels protective. And how it feels, to people who for many reasons want to get themselves back into activities, seems meaningful. In any case, participating is a decision they come to based on those feelings. Until more people have exposed themselves to these situations and established data based results, it's a question of risk vs. potential benefit -is a person getting enough of a benefit to justify the potential risk, which is a personal decision that's still at this point based on *feelings*, not yet on science.
For the record, I'm still avoiding any live ensemble rehearsals or performances, even with masks, distancing or anything else, based solely on the risk added by my age.
Karl
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2020-09-05 15:57
That's great that the schools are trying this out. If they team up their efforts with really rigorous testing, then there will very quickly be solid data on whether it works.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2020-09-05 17:48
SunnyDaze wrote:
> That's great that the schools are trying this out. If they team
> up their efforts with really rigorous testing, then there will
> very quickly be solid data on whether it works.
I don't know where you'd find a really rigorous testing program anywhere in the U.S. right now. Maybe inside the NBA bubble. Certainly not in the schools, which are chronically underfunded in general and are not getting nearly enough help paying for the basic additional needs of accommodating "safe" practices in the school buildings that are open.
The only test will be whether or not kids start getting COVID-19. I hope fervently that they don't and that the measures band directors and teachers in general are implementing to try to prevent viral spread are successful.
Karl
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Author: rmk54
Date: 2020-09-05 18:11
That's great that the schools are trying this out. If they team up their efforts with really rigorous testing, then there will very quickly be solid data on whether it works.
---------------------------------
And what if it doesn't work and the kids either get sick themselves or (more likely) pass it on to an elderly relative? What would you say to them?
How do think a kid is going to feel if they give a fatal dose to a grandparent? I don't think the joy of music will suffice there.
Bottom line: Don't experiment with kids!
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Author: Bonnie
Date: 2020-09-05 20:07
A band supply store in Indiana has an overlapping mask they're selling for use with wind instruments. They also have bell covers for all wind instruments.
i'm just putting this out here for information . . . not endorsing or encouraging. And yes, Chris, I really miss playing with my friends, and I hope things like this, and/or the bag in Paul's photos can be a possible aid to getting there. Information and photos of the mask and bell covers are here:
https://www.bandshoppe.com/shop/health-safety/
bdskees@comcast.net
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2020-09-05 22:45
I haven't played since early March as I've been shielding since then and I'm not intending to play until it's definitely safe to do so without any obstacles in the way (and not going on what this shoddy government are ill informing us what to do and don't do that same thing in the same breath as they haven't a clue what they're doing). Wearing a mask whilst playing is only going to risk damaging the reed and that's another risk I'll gladly do without.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2020-09-06 00:38
rmk54 - yes that is a tricky one. My son goes back to school the day after tomorrow and we're in unknown territory after that. We've already lost a grandparent to covid, and I was very unwell with covid (lost 19lbs in a week, barely able to stand for 6 weeks, unable to pay clarinet for 4+ months), so I take it very seriously indeed.
The flipside is that the medics in this country (the UK) seem extremely clear that missing school is *much* more harmful to children than getting covid, so we have this huge balancing act to manage in the coming year. To solve the problem, our kids here are being taught in isolated "bubbles" with each class of 30 kids totally isolated from all other classes. Logically, in such groups, I think they could probably play musical instruments safely, unmasked (maybe?). The bubble system breaks rather badly once you take sibling relationships into account, especially in large families, but that is what we are trying in this country and I think we will find out quite fast whether it works.
However, that only all sort-of works if there is a really comprehensive testing system in place. It's really hard to tell if a kid has covid. I know because my son had it, and for him it just looked like any normal cough. So any time a child shows signs of possible covid, they need to be tested, and if the test is positive, then contacts need to be informed and all need to isolate.
That doesn't solve the problem you raise of vunerable relatives who may live with the child. I have no idea how that problem is meant to be solved, but our medics here seem very certain that it is more dangerous for kids to remain out of school than to go back. The families who have two shielding parents or live-in elderly relatives must find that extremely difficult.
I don't think that there is any chance of restoration of the economy without rigorous testing and tracing of contacts of people who have confirmed infection, and I get the impression that we do somehow need to get the children back into school and the economy going again somehow. I'm not an economist, so I don't know so much about that. Waiting for a vaccine doesn't seem to be an option.
Chris - I'm so sorry that you are having to shield and miss your music. It's such a hard situation this. If I were in your shoes, I would do the same and stay home in safety. I'm only having clarinet lessons over skype just now, though I'm glad to have two people (horn players) to live with.
I hope this is all okay, what I have said. It's a very difficult situation to discuss this, but I feel as though we can't solve the problems unless we at least try.
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Author: Slowoldman
Date: 2020-09-06 21:05
As I look at Paul's photos, I wonder why the brasses don't have some sort of "mask" over their bells. (I have seen these elsewhere.)
Also, I hate to even think about what's going on when they clear their "spit valves".
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2020-09-06 23:26
Interesting that you mention the condensation.
There were other images which showed close ups of everyone's condensation cups (about the diameter of a saucer). I guess the idea was to be as hygienic as possible and not leave anything behind for the janitorial staff.
Of course all you band directors and bandsmen know the greatest "offenders" are the trombones. I have know idea how you tame that.
...................Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2020-09-07 01:07)
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Author: jthole
Date: 2020-09-07 12:11
What I see here (Netherlands) is that rehearsals started again after the summer holidays, with small groups, keeping distance between the players, and in large rooms with lots of ventilation (doors and windows open against each other).
The only public appearances I have in my calendar are outdoors.
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