 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Speculator Sam
Date: 2018-04-22 22:46
After reading Tony F's reply to the "Ideal Outdoors Clarinet" thread, I did a quick Google shopping search and pulled up all metal clarinets I could find on the first page. Using my internet shopping knowledge, I sifted about 25 pages and reduced them to 9 pages getting rid of pages like "uh... used... uh... you get what's in the one picture I posted that's blurry"; also pages like "is dinged and some leaks".
Now just reading the 8 pages. With the exception of a Silver King for $1,450, so 7 pages now, I'm seeing an average price is $262.70 including shipping. Of the 7 pages, one clarinet was $100 and does not come with a case or mouthpiece.
I've got to wonder, how come used metal clarinets in working condition are selling for so cheap? Also, would these be good instruments for typical learning/bedroom practice? Thanks for reeding (reed pun).
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Author: Ken Lagace
Date: 2018-04-22 23:02
Supply and demand.
They are old acoustical design and the sound is a lot brighter so not the best preference for exquisite playing. Some with a double core are better but need to be tested first.
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2018-04-22 23:39
Hummm...
I don't see why one wouldn't be useful for learning. The feel of my metal horn (US Bandmaster) is notably different than a typical setup. Seems like mine is more resistant. I have no idea if that's typical on a metal horn.
My only criticism of that horn is the intonation. It's flat up high, sharp down low. Now when I play 2nd, 3rd clarinet it's all manageable. But I usually play 1st, and the music renders the horn useless. Tangling with sharp flutes is a battle not worth fighting.
In full disclosure, I bought the horn on an internet auction site for $100. My intention was to make a lamp out of it. But thing was in such great shape I had it re-padded. I'd ask if the Bboard perhaps knows tuning tendencies of varies metal horns. Again, my US Bandmaster is flat in the altissimo, sharp chalumeau.
~Robt L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage
Lig: Ishimori, Behn Delrin
Reed: Legere French Cut 3.75/4, Behn Brio 4
Horns: Uebel Superior (Bb,A), Ridenour Lyrique, Buffet R13 (Eb)
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Author: Speculator Sam
Date: 2018-04-23 00:05
Seems like it's timbre would be pretty good for New Orleans Jazz/Blues. @ClairinetRobt don't all instruments have an intonation issue? I agree, that maybe in an orchestra situation this isn't a good horn but for someone just reading method books, learning songs for fun, and maybe some Christmas caroling and casual gigs it shouldn't be a big concern.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2018-04-23 03:33
I bought my Selmer from EBay USA several years back when the $A was quite strong compared with the $US. Price was $US100, around $A85 at the time. It was in quite good shape, but I stripped, polished and repadded it. It's very free-blowing with the right mouthpiece and tends to be flat in the chalameau and gets sharper as you go up, although manageably so. As with most metal instruments, it's more susceptible to temperature related intonation problems. The double-walled instruments were better in this regard. It's a great instrument for casual jazz gigs, but I wouldn't use it in a concert band or orchestra.
Tony F.
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Author: Speculator Sam
Date: 2018-04-23 03:45
That's a cool story Tony. Say, in the world of clarinet repair what does stripping mean? I used to work at a carwash, and I know that stripping could mean cleaning a car before you wax it. Not sure if that's the same thing as you're suggesting.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2018-04-23 06:49
I use the term "strip" to mean removing all the keywork, pads, corks, posts and fittings (where possible, not practical on a metal instrument). Then I clean it, make any repairs necessary, repad and sort out the corks and then re-assemble and adjust.
Tony F.
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Author: patmiller
Date: 2018-04-23 08:02
I have bought 10 metal clarinets online (when I was going through a phase). I intend to keep probably two - a Silver King and a Harry Pedler. All of them work and their quality of build and intonation seem OK. The best place to read about brands etc is http://www.silver-clarinet.com/
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Author: jordan.1210
Date: 2018-04-23 16:31
I've been interested in picking one of these up to play around one, nothing serious, so a student horn is just fine (looking mostly at Cavaliers, Three Stars, and Collegiates) What is a decent price nowadays? I saw they used to be had for around $50 at this level but prices seem to be increasing?
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Author: Speculator Sam
Date: 2018-04-23 21:06
Jordan where did you find that $50 one? I saw a Regent for $55.87. Not only was it missing a mouthpiece and case (how is it going to survive shipping?), it was rusted to a point where one would need a tetanus shot everytime you pick it up.
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2018-04-23 23:53
As a long-time collector of metal clarinets, my feelings are these:
1. The internet (auctions) and YouTube-like services have introduced countless folks to the "oddity" or "novelty" of hearing clarinet-like sounds coming from a clarinet "skeleton."
2. Prior to the Internet, many of these clarinets were traded freely (no cost) or at $5-$25, and many met the fate of being turned into table lamps.
3. The "pro" model metal clarinets seem to stay priced about where informed collectors demand the price/market to be, and are generally justified by serious collectors.
4. The student model (ranging from junk to great) metal clarinets seem to be highly over-priced due to the (largely uninformed) market buying into the novelty of wanting to try a metal clarinet, while others are caught by the words "rare" and "silver"...not knowing one metal clarinet from another.
I personally wouldn't pay more than $50 for a run-of-the-mill metal clarinet. Sure, they're fun to have and to try, but they really aren't as widely accepted as equally priced non-metal clarinets - conductors and others might complain, etc.
Having said all of this, I do play a metal 1898 Conn Albert system clarinet as my primary clarinet (It was advertised as a professional clarinet in 1898), and own an 1892-1895 Conn Albert as a backup. My primary instrument possesses all of the intonation issues you'd expect from an 1898 instrument, but fits my needs. It can meld nicely in concert/chamber-type settings up to about B4 ![[B4]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/b4.gif) , but then stands out like a nudist at a nunnery until G5 ![[G5]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/g5.gif) , where it starts melding in again.
My primary musical interest is jazz, but I personally feel the metal/jazz connection is as much (or more) novelty and cliche' as it is reasoned and factual. While there were a few old-time musicians who played metal clarinets at one point or another, few remained on metal clarinets as their primary instrument - most played wood or rubber.
If you're interested in the history of metal clarinets prices (since the Internet/ebay impact), search the bboard for Jim Lande's posts. He used to post an annual analysis of ebay's metal clarinet make/model pro/student cost averages. Very interesting. He's a great guy, who (unfortunately) doesn't post here as often anymore.
As a metal clarinet performer (and I would bet others would agree), it is frequent for people to approach after a performance and ask all about the metal clarinet (even more so than the Albert...which strikes me as odd - when I play non-metal Alberts, everyone approaches me to ask about the wrap-around register key..."What kind of clarinet is that?!"). I know of at least five people who are currently planning to purchase a metal clarinet, simply because they liked how mine sounded. I know of a few more who are planning to buy a metal clarinet due to seeing an acquaintance of mine playing. The folks (self-admittedly) know nothing about metal clarinets, and are planning to buy because they are in love with the idea of playing a metal clarinet. "It's cool!"
Again - the above are just my personal thoughts/opinions/observations. I'm not trying to rock the boat, but I do wish the market would calm down a bit and make the student models or junk-level instruments affordable, but now that the fad has begun, I doubt that will happen.
Fuzzy
PS: I want to make sure there is no confusion...when I say "...as a metal clarinet performer...", I don't mean to infer I'm a professional performer. I'm not. I play publicly 3x week for fun, and seasonally or events otherwise. I make my living doing something else entirely.
EDIT: > adding these two links from Jim Lande's 2004 and 2012 surveys:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=140451&t=140451
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=367509&t=367509
Post Edited (2018-04-24 02:56)
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Author: jordan.1210
Date: 2018-04-24 04:14
Yeah, I've been into clarinet history lately and looking to try some "oddities" that are within my budget (metal, Albert), which is admittedly pretty low because I don't intend them to replace my primary horn. I think it'd be fun to have an instrument that has a place in clarinet history and is still functional, so for my purposes, a student level horn is just fine. I like talking music related things with people and these would be a great conversation starter :P
Post Edited (2018-04-24 04:23)
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2018-04-25 01:30
Be careful, Jordan - I never planned on switching to Albert either - it just happened! ;^)>>>
Fuzzy
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2018-04-25 03:51
Congrats! Welcome to the club! How many rings does it have? How many "trill" keys (though, I'm not sure that name is correct with Alberts?)
Fuzzy
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Author: jordan.1210
Date: 2018-04-25 04:00
It's a two ring model with 3 "trill" keys. I know the 4 rings are more desirable but I think it'll be fine for me.
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2018-04-25 04:08
Nice!! (I prefer the two ring models...and the extra (3rd) trill key makes life a lot easier too.)
Please post a note (or send me an e-mail) to let us know how you like it once you get it up and running! Have fun!
Fuzzy
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Author: GeorgeL ★2017
Date: 2018-04-29 02:48
"many met the fate of being turned into table lamps."
As someone with two home-made metal clarinet lamps (each clarinet purchased for about $50), I look at them as objects that were rescued from an existence in an attic or closet and turned into useful, albeit continually tarnishing, functional lamps.
In another life, if someone wants to turn them back into functioning clarinets, that person will find absolutely no damage was done to either clarinet during their lamp periods.
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2018-04-29 03:12
Hi GeorgeL.
Many of the ones I've seen turned into lamps were too broken down to warrant saving. Others I've seen were in great condition, but had the bells or upper ruined by the chosen hardware-mounting methods.
Quite a while back, I saw someone selling the lamps commercially for $250 a pop. At the time that was a pretty good turn-around! Now, it might be just as good to sell them as clarinets!
It is cool to hear that yours were mounted in a way that would allow them to be used again!
I've always been curious how many of the lamps were made for disassembly. ;^)>>>
I do think the lamps look nice - I just never ended up being able to pick one of mine to become a lamp - even though a couple of them would fit the bill nicely.
Fuzzy
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Author: Speculator Sam
Date: 2018-04-29 08:31
I suppose I'll add a new question to the topic. So, which is sturdier and/or higher quality instrument? A composite/plastic intermediate clarinet, like the Selmer 1400B or Backun Alpha, or a metal clarinet by Selmer, Bettoney, Conn, or the likes? Also thanks for adding to the conversation, this is fun!
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Author: Fuzzy
Date: 2018-04-29 09:26
While I can't directly answer your question, I will say that as a rule of thumb, there's a stigma associated with bringing a metal clarinet into a classical environment (at least there always was for me throughout high school and college.) Much of it is justified, and some is not.
I share this link frequently, but it really is fun: Clarinet Listening Test. I fooled myself into thinking I had done better than I had the first time, because I hadn't written my answers down. I suggest writing your answers down in order to have the most fun with it. (It's quite an old link now.) It doesn't compare the specific makes/types you're asking about, but it's in the same vein.
For marching band, I always used my "original" clarinet - a used Plastic Vito. However, I always kept my first metal clarinet ready to use as a backup (low-end metal clarinet). I ended up spending about half of a marching season on my metal during college. Frankly, I was surprised that it did way better than either my Vito or the other clarinetist's clarinets that year. It held up great! (Sometimes it would get so cold during marching season that we'd have icicles hanging from our bells!) It played better in tune than my Vito did in those colder days...which really surprised me (perhaps "better in tune" had something to do with more closely matching the metal contraction/expansion of the trumpets and trombones?)
Fuzzy
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Author: Speculator Sam
Date: 2018-04-29 10:55
The audio, although I have typical dollar store headphones and not studio quality headphones, seems to me like each clarinet had it's on timbral quirk (a little brighter, rounder, darker, etc.) but more or less sounded the same. Overall they sounded like a generally good clarinet sound. It proves that the player's chops, reed, mouthpiece, and ligature set-up are more determinate of the sound than the instrument itself.
That's an interesting observation there about matching the cold brass section's intonation. For orchestra, where the majority, actually most all, woodwinds are wooden instruments. That makes much sense for blending reasons. For outdoor gigs, bar/casual gigs, or Christmas caroling, etc. I'm wondering if metal holds up better than a composite clarinet.
Part of me wants to support my local merchants and buy the Selmer 1400B that's been sitting on their shelf for five years, but if I can find a metal instrument that's equivalent or better than an intermediate clarinet for much cheaper, then I think I'd rather have that. That, and metal is part of clarinet history, so it's nostalgic.
Although, you can't really beef a metal clarinet up with aftermarket parts like Backun or Behn barrels and Bells... I'm over-thinking/getting off topic at this point.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2018-04-29 15:59
Most of a lifetime ago I played a metal Eb in the Station band when I was in the RAF. Wiltshire is a cold, cold place in winter and I used to have the keys sticking closed because they had frozen up. The whole band used to start playing almost a semitone flat and would gradually come into some sort of tune after about half a minute or so. I still have the metal Eb, I "souvenired" it when the base closed down. If I hadn't it would have sat on a shelf for years and then probably sold as scrap.
Tony F.
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Author: Speculator Sam
Date: 2018-04-29 18:04
RAF I assume means Royal Air Force? Thank you for your service Tony . Keys sticking is bad enough in room temperature; I couldn't imagine any instrument being compatible in that sort of cold climate.
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Author: jordan.1210
Date: 2018-05-18 06:05
Sorry about reviving an old thread but I bought a metal Cavalier recently for the low price of $30, which included shipping. I was somewhat concerned by the price but I just got it today and after a few minutes of adjustment (some RH pinky keys needed to be bent into place), it plays just fine. I was expecting a display piece but got a pretty usable horn to play for fun
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Author: Speculator Sam
Date: 2018-05-18 20:18
Let's all celebrate and congratulate Jordan for reviving my old thread As long as there's something new to bring to the topic, then I'm sure that it's fine.
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Author: jordan.1210
Date: 2018-05-19 01:55
Fuzzy, it's a Cavalier from Elkhart, Indiana. I think I read that they may have been made by Conn
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The Clarinet Pages
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