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 articulated C#-G#
Author: Francesca 
Date:   2001-07-29 03:12

Hey all!
As I sit here comparing my bass and soprano clarinets, I realized that my soprano lacks a few features that I use extensively on my bass. For example, the articulated C#-G# is almost necessary for things like Ravel's "Daphnis and Chloe" and the left hand Eb lever is a very nifty feature as well. This is probably a very dumb question, but is there any way to have these features added to my clarinet? I have a Buffet R-13, I don't know if it's a special edition or anything. I was tempted to get the Leblanc Opus that has these options (maybe it was a Concerto, I get them mixed up!) but I didn't get as good a tone out of it. Any thoughts are appreciated. Thanks!

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 RE: articulated C#-G#
Author: Robert Small 
Date:   2001-07-29 06:31

Might be feasible to add the extra Eb/Ab key but the articulated G#/C# requires drilling a hole through the tenon and socket plus rebuilding a good bit of keywork. I agree that these are useful features to have (also a forked Bb/Eb). The Opus has the extra Eb/Ab key but not the articulated G#/C#.

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 RE: articulated C#-G#
Author: Anji 
Date:   2001-07-29 12:16

Is it possible to borrow a Full-Boehm horn in your neighborhood?

The positioning of these keys on the Soprano is tight, I fumble across the articulated G# more often than I would care to admit on my Full-Boehm Buffets.

The modern versions or these are VERY expensive, so a retrofit might be cost effective.

However...

This is a one way trip, that may adversely effect the tone character of the horn
(could make it better, but best to prepare for the worst!), taking out the mods afterwards seems dicey.

I would poll John Butler and Gordon (NZ) along with Jimmy Yan to see what they think about the surgery.

I saw a web-page devoted to a Basset horn retrofit that might be up your alley.

If I can find the site, I'll post it later (lotsa thumb Gizmos on the horn, no thumbrest and a necessary thumbrest); this incorporated many of the features you describe in an elegant package.

anji

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 RE: articulated C#-G#
Author: Gordon (NZ) 
Date:   2001-07-29 14:31

I t certainly would not be a good idea or cost effective to convert to articulated C#/G#. The tenon would have to be removed, the upper section shortened a new tenon grafted in, the lower section shortened, two new post locations, major key modifications, etc etc. Effectively the tenon joint has to be moved further up the instrument to get the relevant tone hole in the lower section. That is major surgery. An alternative would be to keep the tone hole and tenon where they are, but then even more major mechanical work would be needed and would involve a second bridge key. Better to sell the instrument and buy the articulated original. The LH Eb would be easier but could look very much an add-on, because it probably could not be sensibly put BETWEEN the other two levers as is normally done.

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 RE: articulated C#-G#
Author: jbutler 
Date:   2001-07-29 15:58

I agree with Gordon. I have seen a "home made" modification for an articulated G#. I repaired a clarinet awhile back where someone had soldered and extension onto the ring key of the lower joint. This extension rode over the G# key on the upper joint. It was modified so that when the LJ rings were depressed it would close the G# key. Gordon, much like the split E on a Pearl flute. It did look very "home made". The lower joint Eb to me would be a little harder. Patricola has a simple device for an articulated G# also. They incorporated a linkage to the LJ rings off the thumb rest side which articulates a separate key held by rod and hinge posts just below G# key. Much the same idea as the former, but a little more sophisticated.

John

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 RE: articulated C#-G#
Author: ron b 
Date:   2001-07-29 22:25

I'm guessing that the reason for an articulated G# is for trills. If that's the only reason, it would be quite simple to do what the Germans have been doing (with Albert/Oehler systems) for eons; add a little extension piece that can be operated with the right index finger :])
- ron b -

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 RE: articulated C#-G#
Author: Larry Garges 
Date:   2001-07-29 23:03

Don't you lose the long hi f fingering when you have an articulated C#G#?

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 RE: articulated C#-G#
Author: Micaela 
Date:   2001-07-30 01:07

Can someone explain what an articulated C#-G# is? Is it an extra key somewhere? I played a clarinet with a left E flat once (a Buffet Festival) and it got in my way but I think with the chance to get used to it, it would be helpful. Is this something like that?

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 RE: articulated C#-G#
Author: jim lande 
Date:   2001-07-30 03:59

All of my experience is with older metal clarinets, so take this for what it worth.

The two reasons stated for the articulated C#/G# are 1) better placement of the hole and 2) apparently it simplifies the addition of the extra trill key.

I have a Buffet which has the articulated mech. but no extra trill key, so at least one manufacturer did this for tone rather than trill reasons.

I have played Silver King and Silva Bet models that both had and did not have this arrangement. I am not convinced that the tone for the C# and G# are much better. Perhaps my ear is not good enough. (I have been fooling with a Selmer full boehm and I can't recall if my other one has the mech or not.)

Most interesting, each manufacturer had a different approach to making this key work. The Selmer is difficult to get to work right. The Buffet has flabby action and is really weird when you take it apart. In all cases, they are not as straight forward as the standard keywork and IMHO, based on a small and very vintage sample, appear to be more subject to problems.

Buffet and some current makers have wood models with a single center section instead of two "joints". Most of the metal clarinets were made that way. Does anyone know of a maker who took advantage of the lack of a joint to locate a standard C#/G# tone hole further down the body? Why not? Was the tone hole placement more a matter of marketing than quality? Or is there some other reason besides the tenon explaining why the hole could not be moved without also having the hole in line with the finger holes? .

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 RE: articulated C#-G#
Author: jim lande 
Date:   2001-07-30 03:59

All of my experience is with older metal clarinets, so take this for what it worth.

The two reasons stated for the articulated C#/G# are 1) better placement of the hole and 2) apparently it simplifies the addition of the extra trill key.

I have a Buffet which has the articulated mech. but no extra trill key, so at least one manufacturer did this for tone rather than trill reasons.

I have played Silver King and Silva Bet models that both had and did not have this arrangement. I am not convinced that the tone for the C# and G# are much better. Perhaps my ear is not good enough. (I have been fooling with a Selmer full boehm and I can't recall if my other one has the mech or not.)

Most interesting, each manufacturer had a different approach to making this key work. The Selmer is difficult to get to work right. The Buffet has flabby action and is really weird when you take it apart. In all cases, they are not as straight forward as the standard keywork and IMHO, based on a small and very vintage sample, appear to be more subject to problems. I'd be curious to hear what the pros think about this.

Buffet and some current makers have wood models with a single center section instead of two "joints". Most of the metal clarinets were made that way. Does anyone know of a maker who took advantage of the lack of a joint to locate a standard C#/G# tone hole further down the body? Why not? Was the tone hole placement more a matter of marketing than quality? Or is there some other reason besides the tenon explaining why the hole could not be moved without also having the hole in line with the finger holes? .

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 RE: articulated C#-G#
Author: Gordon (NZ) 
Date:   2001-07-31 11:54

Micaela: Pressing the G# (LH pinky) key down makes the "G#" pad rise, as with other clarinets. However with articulated G# when you close any of the RH ring keys the G# pad closes again, even though your pinky is still down. This is achieved by some extra mechanism. In order to accommodate this mechanism the whole G# mechanism is moved from the upper section of the clarinet to the lower, but the finger positions remain much the same. The purpose of the mechanism is to make a few difficult fingerings easy, e.g. a trill from clarion F# to G# - where you can just leave your G# finger down. Or likewise for a tremolo from F to G# leaving the G# finger down.
There are no extra keys to put your fingers on, just an 'automated' mechanism.
Saxophones and oboes have it as standard.

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 RE: articulated C#-G#
Author: Micaela 
Date:   2001-07-31 16:59

Thanks, Gordon. It sounds very helpful. I looked at my oboe and I could see what you mean.

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 RE: articulated C#-G#
Author: David Pegel 
Date:   2001-08-01 00:24

Wouldn't that come in handy playing things in G. I am so close to envy of those with articulated models..

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 RE: articulated C#-G#
Author: Robert Small 
Date:   2001-08-01 01:54

The articulated G#/C# really comes in handy when playing in sharp keys like A Major.

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 RE: articulated C#-G#
Author: Gordon (NZ) 
Date:   2001-08-01 08:30

It has its down-side. It is a rather 'precarious' mechanism, playing one spring tension off against another, and can quite easily be bent out of adjustment. It adds to servicing expense; it is just another gadget to go wrong. Replacing a tenon cork is far more fiddly. And doesn't it make one alternative fingering impossible - "long F'?
Because it puts the G# tone hole in an acoustically more appropriate place it THEORETICALLY improves this C#/G# note.
Players without it develop appropriate finger twiddling skills to manage OK.

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 RE: articulated C#-G#
Author: Dee 
Date:   2001-08-05 03:11

The articulated C#/G# key does indeed eliminate the "long F" altissimo fingering. This "long F" has several advantages depending on your individual clarinet and your playing abilities. It tends to be inherently better in tune than other fingerings for F. It also seems to be more stable for long held notes. It seems to have a more robust sound. These advantages are only pertinent to the clarinet with its register jumps being limited to odd harmonic intervals. Instruments like the flute, oboe, and sax jump by octaves, including the even harmonics so the advantages that accrue to the clarinet fingering simply aren't relevant and the articulated C#/G# is the standard mechanism.

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 RE: articulated C#-G#
Author: DeletedUser 
Date:   2018-03-11 04:43

Could someone tell me if BUFFET CRAMPON made a clarinet with an articulated G key ? FACTORY MADE ? - not homemade. Thanks



Post Edited (2018-03-11 04:43)

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 Re: articulated C#-G#
Author: donald 
Date:   2018-03-11 08:56

Yes Buffet did offer this key.
btw an articulated C#/G# CAN be retro fitted WITHOUT having to bore a new hole (only then you won't have the advantage of correct/improved tone-hole placement).

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 Re: articulated C#-G#
Author: Chris P 
Date:   2018-03-11 12:56

Buffet tended to place the articulated C#/G# tonehole as high as possible on the lower joint to make it as small as possible to keep it as stuffy as possible to attempt to retain the poor quality C# most players are used to on standard instruments. Not sure what their logic was, but that's Buffet and they like to defy logic.

Buffet: http://www.woodwindforum.com/clarinetperfection/galleryclar/Keywork/FB/02.jpg

Leblanc: http://www.woodwindforum.com/clarinetperfection/galleryclar/Keywork/FB/03.jpg

Selmer: http://www.woodwindforum.com/clarinetperfection/galleryclar/Keywork/FB/04.jpg
http://www.woodwindforum.com/clarinetperfection/galleryclar/Keywork/FB/05.jpg

Chris.

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 Re: articulated C#-G#
Author: jonathan.wallaceadams 
Date:   2018-03-15 08:27

The Vintage Clarinet Doctor is selling a few clarinets with the articulated G# for under $600 on his site. (www.thevintageclarinetdoctor.com)


Stephen Fox has an extension for around $50 (http://www.sfoxclarinets.com/Accessories.html)

Don't buy a new horn for it. I don't feel like my aux. Eb was worth it, even as it came with my instrument. Given, I'm not at a level where I can utilize any of my keys to their fullest ability so take my word with a grain of salt.

Edit: My apologies, something happened where my post was duplicated 8 times while trying to add an attachment to my reply.

Just an aspiring student.
Buffet Tradition
Mpc.: Hawkins "G", Barrel: Moba, Reeds: Reserve 3.5+

Post Edited (2018-03-15 08:38)

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 RE: articulated C#-G#
Author: Wes 
Date:   2018-03-15 08:51

Yes, on my 1912 full Boehm one piece Bb Buffet clarinet, a simple articulated C#/G# key is fitted. It is also found on my 1921 full Boehm one piece A Buffet clarinet. These were the clarinets of a Mr. Tarantola, who was said by his widow to have used them in his professional career in Los Angeles, including the Hollywood Bowl concerts. I bought them after his passing, in about 1953. I will soon get them out to retry them as I've been playing more modern Buffets lately.

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 Re: articulated C#-G#
Author: Barry Vincent 
Date:   2018-03-15 12:54

My full Boehm Armati Klaslice Bb and A Clarinets look the same as the Selmer instruments in Chris's photos. Never had any mechanical or tonal problems with them. Considering that they are Armati Clarinets I think I just got lucky with the ones I have.

Skyfacer

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 Re: articulated C#-G#
Author: 2cekce 2017
Date:   2018-03-16 04:27

I have the Amati full boehm Bb & Eb and they both have been great no issues other than the usual (Eb one)

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