 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bennett ★2017
Date: 2017-06-16 06:59
My Buffet R13, vintage 2001, has a small leak in both the upper and lower joints. It won't hold a vacuum when sucking and allows a bit of air to flow when blowing A magnehelic gauge similarly shows small leakage. As far as I can tell, it plays fine. When I compare it to my R13 A, I find the two clarinets to play similarly.
Two technicians have looked at it and have been unable to find any leaks in the pads or cracks in the tonehole chimneys or elsewhere - this for both upper and lower joints
One technician suggested something I've never heard of before - coating the bores with beeswax or paraffin to seal them (I have oiled the bores with Drs Products bore oil.) Looking at the bores I can see that the Bb's bores are not nearly as shiny or smooth as the A's with what appear to be streaks of grain. I've tried to actually blow through the wood, holding it to my lips like a flute - w/o success but of course I'm trying to blow through a small section compared to air leaking out through the length of the whole joint.
I've read somewhere, probably here, that leakage through the maple of bassoons occurs but that grenadilla is too dense/oily for this to occur.
So what to do? Leave well enough alone? Go with a wax coating? This seems like it might cause other problems if it is totally vapor proof. Other avenues to pursue first?
Thanks for your advice
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2017-06-16 07:34
Grenadilla will never leak enough air through the wood to be noticeable. If your technicians are unable to find leaks then it is reasonable to assume that either the tone holes are not well finished (VERY common on Buffet clarinets) or the pads are of poor quality. If you want your clarinet to be completely leak proof you may want to consider having synthetic pads installed. I've done this to several R13 and every time the instrument becomes more responsive and more free blowing. Some people also like cork pads, but synthetic pads are far more forgiving and require less work to seal perfectly. You could also have the tone holes refinished, but either way I would not wax the bore.
-Jdbassplayer
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2017-06-16 15:49
Clarinets can leak through the wood. I've seen it many times. I do this by plugging up the holes, using a magnehelic and immersing the clarinet joint in water. Posts are the most common places a leak will occur, but I've seen leaks far from any post or tine hole.
That being said, the clarinet is probably not leaking through the wood, except perhaps a teeny bit though grain close to the the edge of the tone hole.
In your situation, I would test the body by itself, then assemble the clarinet testing after each pad is installed. the problem may not be a pad, it may be the edge of the tone hole. I seldom install a pad on a wooden clarinet without sealing the tone hole and filling in any checks in the edge.
I have polished bores with bees wax but it has not become part of my regular protocol. This is a light coating that probably would not prevent a significant leak.
Steve Ocone
Post Edited (2017-06-17 00:15)
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2017-06-16 17:04
I've experienced a couple of incidences of air leaking through the wood. One was caused by a tiny knot in the wood and the other was just a porous area of the wood, with no obvious pinholes. In both cases I swabbed the bore with linseed oil until the leak stopped and then swabbed it with almond oil to remove the residue of linseed oil. Linseed oil polymerizes as it dries and effectively sealed the leaks on both instruments. This was suggested on this forum when I mentioned the problem and it has worked perfectly on both instruments. One is still in my possession and I know the owner of the other. It was also suggested that epoxy could be used, but I've not tried that and don't plan to.
Leaks can be detected by removing the keywork, plugging the holes and one end of the bore with stoppers and applying pressure to the bore with a bicycle pump via a modified cork in the other end of the bore. A light brush with soapy water will reveal the leak.
Tony F.
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Author: ClarinetRobt
Date: 2017-06-16 20:12
I just got my Buffet Prestige back from John Butler in Sugarland, TX. To call my horn filthy would have been a compliment. But he cleaned and repadded my horn. Really did a brilliant job.
I was curious of his playing impressions of my horn and if he felt the old Buffet was 'blown out', plus I was curious what he did to my horn. Here's what he said:
"It sounds really fine to me. “Blown out” means to me that the timbre needs to stabilize after a thorough cleaning, oiling and waxing (yes, I wax the wood with beeswax). I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised with the results and it should last for many years to come. Let me know if I can be of further assistance."
So the Beeswax has some credence and might help your R13.
~Robt L Schwebel
Mthpc: Behn Vintage
Lig: Ishimori, Behn Delrin
Reed: Legere French Cut 3.75/4, Behn Brio 4
Horns: Uebel Superior (Bb,A), Ridenour Lyrique, Buffet R13 (Eb)
Post Edited (2017-06-16 20:27)
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Author: Wes
Date: 2017-06-16 23:18
When I bought a new Loree oboe in 2005 from a well established firm in Los Angeles, I observed that the tone hole area seemed to be lacquered but not on the body. I have also done this around tone holes on other oboes and clarinets, the expectation being that small leaks occur through the wood grain from inside the tone hole to the milled area around the hole, and it seemed to help. Oboe repairers also use melted beeswax around the tone holes to minimize leaks.
In your case, there may be several larger than average pores from inside the tone holes to the milled area around the hole. If the instrument were mine, I'd consider lacquering the milled area around the holes, with the keys off, of course. One would also check for and repair any irregularities in the tone hole sharp edges. One could also oil the bore at the same time. Good luck!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-06-17 00:12
No oboe repairers or any woodwind repairer I know of would ever use beeswax to coat tonehole bedplaces with to seal leaks as beeswax is very sticky. The best way to seal porous or damaged toneholes is to use superglue and then apply wood dust to fill in the imperfections, then recut them or level them leaving a perfect bedplace crown for cork pads to seat onto. Wax can be used to tune and voice toneholes, but it's use as a filler to fill cracks is as bad as filling them with grease as it will prevent much better fillers like superglue adhering to the wood if a permanent fix is to be used.
Anything that is fitted into the joints on woodwind instruments can be a potential source of a leak, be it the speaker tube, thumb tube, tonehole chimneys, pillars, pillar or thumbrest screws, slots cut into the joints or any other drilled or cut holes or recesses. The C#/G# tonehole on the top joint and C/G tonehole on the lower joint are very close to the edge of the tenon shoulder (C#/G#) and socket base (C/G) so it won't take much for a leak to happen there.
One way to test for leaks is to plug all the toneholes and tenons or sockets with Blu-Tack or better still, silicone rubber bungs with one of the end bungs being fitted with a tube connected to a bike pump or mag machine to apply air pressure in the bore and do a pressure test under water (only takes a matter of seconds to do instead of being submerged for hours) and the bubbles will show where the leak is, in the same way you'd test a punctured or repaired bike inner tube for leaks (but without the patches and French chalk). Then when the leak is detected, apply a drop of superglue and use suction to draw it into the crack. Best to remove all pillars and fittings wherever possible to do this and that will also gain you better access when applying the superglue.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Steven Ocone
Date: 2017-06-17 00:18
Sorry I corrected my post
I have polished bores with bees wax. This is a light coating that probably would not prevent a significant leak.
Steve Ocone
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-06-17 01:34
I understand Wurlitzer clarinets have a coated bore and they will renew it when their instruments are returned to the factory for servicing or overhauling.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2017-06-17 01:49
I think it's important to note that waxing or coating the bore of an instrument is generally only done to give it a smoother finish or to protect the wood from moisture. I have occasionally used an epoxy coating on instruments with severe rotting in the upper joint. While this does help improve how the instrument plays, it will not eliminate leaks in my experience. Also, this is really only necessary if an instrument has been abused for years with little to no maintenance. Newer instruemnts should not have this problem if they were maintained well.
Some other people also mentioned knots and cracks. While these can allow air to leak, coating the bore is not the best way to solve the problem.
-Jdbassplayer
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Author: Bennett ★2017
Date: 2017-06-17 20:24
Thank you to all who replied with advice. Based upon what you've written I will ask the technician to beeswax the bore of the lower joint and see what happens. This, I think, is the easiest and least expensive first step as nothing has to be removed. If that works, problem solved. I'll then have the register tube removed and have the upper joint waxed.
If wax doesn't do it, I'll then inquire about the expense of more drastic teardowns and troubleshooting. I may try to borrow an R13 Bb and compare it to mine to see whether the small leak(s) I've got are actually a problem, trying to take into account the variations among instruments of the same make, model and vintage.
Really appreciate your help.
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2017-06-25 23:46
Just a small correction to a previous comment: Wurlitzer clarinets comes indeed with a lacquer coating of the bore, but at the first overhaul this is removed and not renewed. It's only purpose is to protect the wood of a new instrument from cracking by sucking in too much moisture. Sound is said to improve when the lacquer has been removed.
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Author: toffeeman3
Date: 2017-06-26 00:38
I think if the qualified technicians have decalered your instrument leak free then just accept it.
Other factors can come in to play such as reed choice, mouthpiece embouchure etc as you will know.
Just enjoy your playing or try another instrument maybe?
good luck
07469847273
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Author: shmuelyosef
Date: 2017-06-27 01:48
Bennett said:
"...As far as I can tell, it plays fine. When I compare it to my R13 A, I find the two clarinets to play similarly..."
What exactly is it that you are trying to fix?
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Author: jdbassplayer
Date: 2017-06-27 02:09
shmuelyosef wrote:
> Bennett said:
> "...As far as I can tell, it plays fine. When I compare it to
> my R13 A, I find the two clarinets to play similarly..."
>
> What exactly is it that you are trying to fix?
If you read the original post he states that there is a leak in the upper and lower joints, although I am 100% certain it is not leaking through the wood. Most new R13s leak a little bit in my experience (I've tried roughly 50 new R13s as of now) but they can be improved with Valentino pads or by carefully finishing the tone holes.
-Jdbassplayer
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2017-06-27 04:34
Geez, I'll find the leaks most likely within 15 minutes. No charge...
I don't know what to say other than find a good repairman. As said in many posts I hate doing repairs, but worse, I also hate seeing people getting ripped off. A clarinet should hold a suction for 20 to 30 seconds. Yes it's hard to do right. With a new Buffet right out of the case you are lucky to get any suction at all. With cork pads on the upper register expect 1 minute.
Send it to me. Do not use wax, with the exception of the octave tube.
email me - savagesax@aol.com
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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