 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ruben
Date: 2017-04-03 20:57
For simplicity's sake, the shape of clarinet tone-holes is round (I'm not referring to their taper). Yet wouldn't it be possible to build instruments that are better in tune and that have better response if more irregular shapes were used? Bassoons have all sorts of irregularly- shaped holes; one of the reasons, I suppose, that bassoons are so expensive. Drilling the holes would be, needless to say, more complicated, but if the final result made a significant difference.... Just a thought.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: el gitano
Date: 2017-04-03 21:27
They don´t have to be round. But ist´s easier to tape with the finger, and it´s easier to make and fix the pads.
Claus
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2017-04-03 22:53
I've thought about this myself, and considered building a clarinet test piece with slots instead of round holes. Several possible reasons for the prevalence of round toneholes:
1) The obvious: Easiest to machine.
2) Of all 2-dimensional geometric shapes the circle has the greatest ratio of area to circumference; so for a given amount of "hole", a round hole should have the minimum amount of friction losses and turbulence at the edge (since there is a minimum amount of 'edge').
3) Being rotationally symmetric, a round tonehole should be more forgiving of alignment with respect to the corresponding key cup, as the allowable misalignment would be the same in all directions.
As for bassoons, if I'm not mistaken the toneholes that appear oval are actually round holes drilled at an angle so that they enter the bore at the acoustically correct spot but can be reached by a finger up top. I'm fairly ignorant of bassoons so could be wrong about this.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2017-04-03 23:30
Anyone who thinks that the bassoon is better in tune than a clarinet has clearly never played the bassoon.
The fact that the bassoon can be played in tune is entirely down to the skill of the player, something of course that also applied to the great clarinettists of the past with their more compromised, tuning-wise, clarinets.
As David mentions the surface shape of a bassoons toneholes are a result of the often accute angles at which the tonehole chimneys have to be bored in order to approximate the corrrect acoustical position.
The fact that this has resulted in the unique tonal qualities of the bassoon and efforts to "improve" the mechanical and acoustical positioning say by using a Boehm like structure has only served to destroy the character of the sound is of course another big factor.
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Author: concertmaster3
Date: 2017-04-04 06:51
I was going to post about Lenny Lopatin's flutes. But even on his flutes, the open holes on the keys are still round. I would imagine to get the same area of the open holes on clarinet, the squares would be bigger, which would be detrimental for some players!
Ron Ford
Woodwind Specialist
Performer/Teacher/Arranger
http://www.RonFordMusic.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2017-04-04 10:46
Bassoon toneholes are round - only some are drilled at angles to either bring them within reach of the player's fingers or drilled at angles to increase their length to stabilise certain notes.
And with them drilled at angles, they will appear to be oval where they meet the surface - this is basic geometry. You'll see the same thing with Renaissance woodwinds where toneholes have been drilled to put them within fingertip reach at the joint surface, but diverge through the joint wall to meet the bore much further apart. If you cut a tube at an angle, the truncated end will be oval - bassoon tonehole tubes are a perfect example should you have to remove or make one.
Likewise with some clarinet C#/G# toneholes that have been drilled at an angle to the bore centre line instead of perpendicular to it - this tonehole will therefore appear to be oval as a result where it meets the joint surface, but is still round as basic tonehole cutters and machinery will only produce round toneholes.
The few instances where they aren't round is when they've been milled out (such as some vent holes) to elongate them so they're velodrome-shaped.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Mojo
Date: 2017-04-04 18:02
There appears to be no benefit for making them non-round. Or, none worth the added cost.
MojoMP.com
Mojo Mouthpiece Work LLC
MojoMouthpieceWork@yahoo.com
Post Edited (2017-04-04 18:03)
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Author: ruben
Date: 2017-04-04 18:57
Mojo. That does seem to be the logical conclusion to this discussion.
rubengreenbergparisfrance@gmail.com
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2017-04-04 22:43
Have you guys seen rovner's rectangular bore barrel?
Works like a barrel should, interesting design concept. Got to try it a few years ago. Works fine, but like said above, there's probably no reason to work harder to get a unique shape when the easier shape works so well.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2017-04-04 23:34
Marketing, my friends! If you can't actually build a BETTER mousetrap, then build a DIFFERENT one and you will still sell some mousetraps.
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Author: shmuelyosef
Date: 2017-04-08 21:05
However, clarinet mouthpieces (and soprano saxes) virtually all have semi-rectangular bores
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2017-04-09 16:30
No , they have cylindrical BORES, but oblong ("semi-rectangular") CHAMBERS. Just correcting the nomenclature. Since the desired standing waves are not yet formed inside the chamber but develop farther down the instrument, and there has to be a geometric transition from the flat reed and table to the cylindrical instrument, the mouthpiece chamber necessarily can (and must) have an odd shape.
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2017-04-11 17:06
"If you can't actually build a BETTER mousetrap, then build a DIFFERENT one and you will still sell some mousetraps."
You can only fool a customer once. And nowadays customers can communicate more easily than ever.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2017-04-11 19:57
I think we need to call this one out a bit...it is much harder to drill a square hole..and for that matter the tools required to it will take much longer...simple answer..we evolved circular holes for ease..also our finger tips are much more adept as the pads on our fingers are rounder outward. A costy mouse trap does not mean it is better!
David Dow
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Author: JHowell
Date: 2017-04-14 00:18
A local flutist has one of the square hole flutes. Pain in the tuchus keeping it sealed. She has stuck with it even though it has been problematic, but I've never wished that a clarinet were made that way. As hard as it is to keep square pads seated with metal chimneys, the same thing done with wood could only be worse.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2017-04-14 01:45
I am a long time owner of a Lopatin flute. Lenny is a very skilled flute maker. He worked for Brannen flutes before he struck out on his own. As much as the tone holes are rather unorthodox the pads are the opposite. While many makers have gone to Straubinger and similar styles he has kept with felt pads. The tolerances are wider than the newer flutes. The corners of the pads can pull as they age and shrink but there is no real problem with padding.
Lenny went with the square concept based on examining the lowest note on the flute. The lowest note vents differently than any other note on the traditional flute.
In any case he liked the sonic results of square holes. It also allowed him to make larger tone holes for the low notes which wouldn't be possible on the round holes. The footjoint toneholes are consequently larger than a traditional flute in area.
Whether the square tone holes sound any different is a difficult question but there is no question that Lopatin flutes are fine professional instruments.
Not that I'm trying to be different but I do use a Lefreque sound bridge on my Lopatin flute.
Freelance woodwind performer
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