 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: donald
Date: 2016-02-20 02:22
"by this summer" is quite a long way off in the southern hemisphere
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Author: bassclarinet101 ★2017
Date: 2016-02-20 02:36
Ann Arbor Clarinet Connection has it listed as well, and for the same price range, as well as A clarinet models.
http://www.a2clarinet.com/instruments.html
I haven't gotten to try one yet, but I'm running an experiment on mouthpiece baffles for which the Tradition is rather appealing. Being a cylindrical design greatly simplifies the math.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-02-20 03:18
When did Buffet change their logo?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2016-02-20 03:45
Personally I think it's great that Buffet isn't stamping this model with that garish silver medallion they've been putting on the new RCs and Prestiges. They seem to be trying for a back-to-basics approach. Hope they got rid of the nylon pins too.
Kessler says he expects to have some of the Traditions to sell in the US in "mid-March."
Post Edited (2016-02-22 05:16)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-02-20 03:55
You mean the nylon pins in the LH levers.
Also it's about time they sprung the F#/C# key properly too. Just because they're pioneers, that doesn't give them the right to continue like they have done for over a century and people have to accept what they do.
Which is why I respring the F#/C# key on all Buffets that come to me so the spring is fitted in the pillar instead of on the key. There's plenty of room to do this - Uebel use near identical keys and pillars and they spring this key normally on their most recent Boehm system clarinets.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2016-02-20 04:17
I currently have 2 Buffet professional Bb clarinets on my bench. One from 1952 and the other from 1953 and both have the cylindrical bore and they are one third the price of the Tradition and the wood is superior on mine due to proper aging and curing times. Chris, I have learned how to set that spring you mentioned. It really is a manufacturing defect that has continued for far to long.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-02-20 04:48
Not entirely a manufacturing defect - more like pure arrogance on their part.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-02-20 13:35
hmmmmm..........
I thought "traditionally" the Boehm clarinet did not have an alternate left hand "Ab/Eb" lever.
I guess I can just take it off like I do with the rest.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2016-02-20 19:29
I thought clarinets were 'traditionally' made from boxwood too.
I've only seen one modern Buffet specially made from boxwood - there's a video somewhere.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2016-02-20 23:33
There are at least two modern boxwood Buffets. The first belongs to Bill McColl and the second to Oliver Patey, which I've seen him play in the Concertbebouw on YouTube.
Kal Opperman said McColl's instrument needed adjustment weekly or even daily because the wood warps so fast. I would suppose that when you're Oliver Patey, Buffet will send a technician anytime you call, just as there was a special Steinway technician who adjusted Vladimir Horowitz's 9-footer every morning.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Agomongo
Date: 2016-02-21 12:07
I love the Buffet Vintage, but when Dan Sagi told me they pulled it and are now calling it Traditional I wasn't too happy about that. Anyone know the "new" things they added to this newer model?
If I like the Traditional and they're going to add changes then I would have to buy a new A just to match sets. Though it's not like it's impossible to find another Vintage somewhere else (sad that the Buffet Showroom case had only 1, but funny enough it was still better than all the Toscas, Divines, R13s, etc. I've played!), but again if I end up loving the Traditional it's going to kill me, haha.
Anyway I guess the question is does anyone know the changes they made? If any?
Post Edited (2016-02-21 12:14)
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Author: sonicbang
Date: 2016-02-21 12:56
As far as I know the Vintage is based on the early R13 bore design and the Traditional is developed from the BC-20 model which has cylindrical upper joint bore. So yes, there is a difference. However, you may find a god matching A despite bore diferences. I have an RC A and just found an S1 Bb and it's a really good match regarding resistance and intonation.
Mark
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Author: jthole
Date: 2016-02-22 01:38
sonicbang wrote:
> As far as I know the Vintage is based on the early R13 bore
> design and the Traditional is developed from the BC-20 model
> which has cylindrical upper joint bore. So yes, there is a
> difference.
I think the marketing info for the Traditional says it is a fully cylindrical bore, not just the upper joint? That would make the Traditional more similar to the old Master Bore.
Nothing wrong with the E13 (I have played one that had a beautiful ring to the sound), but I would not expect an upscale E13 in the professional range.
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Author: sonicbang
Date: 2016-02-22 02:44
I don't have knowlidge about a single clarinet which has cylindrical bore in the lower joint. They are always slightly conical. As far as I know the bore info is normally about the upper joint.
Mark
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Author: jthole
Date: 2016-02-22 02:51
sonicbang wrote:
> I don't have knowlidge about a single clarinet which has
> cylindrical bore in the lower joint. They are always slightly
> conical.
Yes, of course, that makes sense.
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Author: jonok
Date: 2016-02-22 04:42
So if it's sound at it's purest level, all their other clarinets are what, ... tainted?
-------------------
aspiring fanatic
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Author: TomS
Date: 2016-02-22 08:28
I have been told that the upper joint of the Ridenour Lyrique Libertas has little or no reverse taper (I don't know if this means it is cylindrical, it could have some bore changes in the middle of the joint) ... That would mean that the Opus and Concerto would probably be the same. Just throwing that out there ...
Tom
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Author: Curinfinwe
Date: 2016-04-22 02:05
I just tried a brand new Buffet Tradition Bb at Twigg in Montreal. It was right out of the box and not set up at all, but I still loved it. I didn't try it for long, but in a direct comparison of a Tosca, Festival, Vintage, Divine, R13, RC, and my own R13 Prestige, it won by a long shot.
Overall impression was that it's got a lovely creamy sound, but it had enough power and edge to it that I could push the sound as far as I wanted it to go. It had a great "ping" to it and the articulation was very light and responsive. No tuning problems at all.
Interestingly, in the low end of the chalumeau it felt a bit strange at first. I eventually figured out that it had more power than I expected, and I have to focus the air differently than I would on another clarinet. Without that particular focus, it was a bit "woofy," but I was able to make it very resonant and full once I got used to it. Hard to describe really.
Anyway, that's an initial impression of the Tradition! I'm definitely very, very intrigued and want to try more.
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Author: bassclarinet101 ★2017
Date: 2016-04-22 02:21
I'm glad to hear that your initial impression was a positive one! I tried one, and it was flat across the board (needed a 63mm barrel to be in tune) and even then, it wasn't in tune with itself. I guess I just got unlucky, because I've been very interested in the line as a whole!
-Daniel
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Author: Monsterchef
Date: 2016-04-23 11:28
I had a play at them at a local shop today. Intonation seems excellent. Transition between notes and registers are smooth, unlike some other Buffet's.
The only issue I had with the horn is that lower register didn't hold together at higher dynamics. Low G, F, E were a bit too spread to my taste.
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2016-04-23 13:24
Low G, F ,E are bell related. Should be able to be corrected. I have a 1936 Buffet Master Bore Pre R13 currently on my bench with outstanding wood unlike the wood being used today. When completely restored to better than new condition it will sell for only a fraction of the Tradition.
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Author: donald
Date: 2016-05-29 07:31
Yes I saw that last night- the clip is very entertaining and well produced, but doesn't really tell us anything other than that the intonation is similar to his Tosca (which we must assume he hand picked). Nothing informative, but quite a promising report nonetheless. I'll be trying one when I get the chance that's for sure.
Post Edited (2016-05-29 08:16)
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2016-05-29 08:56
Despite their many fine attributes, I have never been satisfied with the altissimo of most Buffets from the R13 on. Too shrill, hard, and discontinuous with the other registers in response and tone. The Tradition seems from Hawley's test to be much smoother and rounder up there, though I wish he had played a few high passages from the Prokefiev Sonata or something similiar to really be sure.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-05-29 15:36
WOW....... did I love that video. All those great clarinetists doing what could only be described as a clarinetists WORST nightmare........playing in a room full of clarinetists.
If you've never done this (and I guess if you've played enough auditions you have) it is simply the worst experience ever. Note: we never get a sample of the performance with all 60 of the top clarinetists playing together. I bet is sounded like a slaughter house for cats.
As for the Tradition, Richie Hawley says he's happier with it than he thought, and he is buying one. That's all we really need to know besides trying one ourselves.
.....and because it is Buffet...... that means it is available in Greenline material ....
hmmmmm.......
................Paul Aviles
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Author: Richie Hawley
Date: 2016-06-03 04:31
Postscript regarding my youtube video review of the Tradition clarinet:
I am always trying different makes and models of instruments when they cross my path. There have been several times when I try something that has an Intriguing sound and say to myself "Wow...this has a really beautiful sound" But I never switch off of Buffet. This is because I find many other instruments that have a smooth covered sound in the upper register are VERY inflexible. Beautiful, but inflexible (stiff or with only one dynamic and color) This is where the new tradition really shines. The upper register has a smooth and covered sound, yet it is flexible, responsive and can produce a ton of colors in all dynamic ranges. I play Buffet clarinets because (for me) their clarinets have a tremendous flexibility of color and dynamics that suit so many different types of repertoire.
My Tosca clarinets projected incredibly well when I was principal of Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra and it works wonderfully with all of the chamber music that I am performing now.
I am dying to get this Tradition clarinet broken in over the next few months to see how it feels on stage when it really counts.
If you want to hear what it sounds like, check out my video review that I am referring to on my youtube channel: It is titled "Paris and review of Tradition Clarinet"
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=FLt2StdOJp_xCW_AVc0fPiFg
Post Edited (2016-06-03 04:37)
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2016-06-03 10:20
Thanks for posting that Richie. I must say, I felt really sorry for that baby!
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Author: windline
Date: 2016-06-04 13:25
I would like to take this opportunity once to give a few critical comments on the new Buffet Crampon Clarinet "TRADITION".
This model is certainly one of the best of Buffet Crampon clarinets, but there is also nothing new! The base Model BC-20 has proved invaluable and has always been a very good clarinet. From a new development is nothing to see (in many aspects). The mechanism is Buffet standard and has nothing of a new development. The production costs are the same as for the model R13. The price of this model is much too high. What justifies this price?
What I do see the worst, are not silvered pillars! How can someone come to such an idea? It will lead for any professional player after some time to big problems. We all know the German silver will be without galvanization by the hand welding damaged and some of the pillars will respond quickly. There will be erosion of the material and also we will see porous areas. The musicians can let silver plated the pillars in their repair shop, but you will loose the warranty, so no solution! There are no sound improvements with not plated pillars, this argument is nonsense.
A classic example of how marketing can kill quality. I can express it only in the following formula:
Very good clarinet + not galvanized pillars + Price = SAD!
The market introduction was great :-)
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Author: TomS
Date: 2016-06-04 18:26
I think the video is WONDERFUL! ... I always like videos and information from professor Hawley! His masterclasses are very interesting.
The Buffet Tradition clarinet does have a clearly different sound over the Tosca, heard well even on my laptop speakers ... I am sure that in person the timbre differences would be more distinct.
Tradition seems warmer/smoother especially in upper register, and with a slight hint of a nasal quality. Might take a tweak in other equipment to optimize your sound concept.
In this small market in Little Rock, not likely to see a Tradition to try ... would like to compare to Lyrique Libertas in sound and tuning ...
Congratulation to Richie Hawley for a well produced video and keeping up his enthusiastic momentum for the clarinet community!
Tom
Post Edited (2016-06-04 18:39)
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2016-06-10 22:36
I've had the chance to play a Tradition over the last few weeks has my very close friend and mentor bought one. I have to agree with Ritchie Hawley. This Clarinet has a very "flexible" Timbre. I felt that I could blow it right down the middle and maintain a certain sound all over the horn. I didn't have to play it differently in each register. It responded to giving it different types of air.
I think it's sound is closer to the Divine than it is to the Tosca. I also think out of all the clarinets I've ever played, I like the way I sound on the Divine the best. I think it has more of the "outer fluff" to the sound and the Tosca has a denser sound to it. That is MY opinion, based on the way I play and on the things that I play. But I could get really close to both types of sounds on the Tradition.
My friend bought one because this is a different type of clarinet than has been out in a number of years. It's going to take a little while to find the "G" spot on it. You won't find it you don't have the time or the inclination to look. Over the years I've played lots of different make clarinets, and one thing I have found is I don't like instruments that have A nice sound. I like and play on instruments that have many nice sounds in it. To many times I've played great instruments that sound like the paint swatches at home depot, 6 shades of the same hue, I prefer the different hues of adjacent color swatches more.
The other reason I really wanted to play the Tradition is, it is being described as a throw back to a pure "Cylindrical" bore clarinet. I don't think there has been one of those since the Selmer Centered Tone and the early series 9. I own 2 CTs and I think they are two of the best clarinets I've ever played. Anybody who has ever played one loves the way the high notes just seem to "track". I find that the Tradition has this same "high note" MoJo going on, but it does it with a distinctly Buffet sound.
There also seemed to be a lot of kvetching about the price but the Tradition seems to be in the ballpark of R13 and RC prestige models and not the Tosca/Divine price. I saw a price for a Tradition at $4500. If that's a realistic price then that's a lot of Clarinet for the money.
I remember this Schtick that Dave Letterman and Paul Schaeffer would do called "is this anything". It started with some person doing some kind of "Act" for a minute and at the end of it Dave and Paul would weigh in on "is this anything". Well I've played the Tradition long enough to say IMHO "it's something" So I'm going to be getting one and I'm going to play it for a year and see what kind of tricks I can get it to do.
Tom Puwalski
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Author: jthole
Date: 2016-06-11 15:46
Thanks for the elaborate review!
I wonder what effect this will have on the value of the BC-20 here in Europe ... so far you could get them relatively cheap; much less than e.g. a pre-owned RC.
And I stand corrected on the BC-20; it was designed with a cylindrical upper bore indeed.
Post Edited (2016-06-12 21:15)
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2016-06-13 11:36
Well, I played the Traditional shortly a few weeks ago but could not recognize the old BC20 in it, based on memories of playing the BC20 a long time ago. A direct comparison might be interesting.
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2016-06-13 20:59
Let me repeat some bore measurements I quoted in another thread on the Tradition. For a 1974 BC20 Bb, the diameters at either end of the upper joint are 15.09 and 14.68mm, so it actually tapers more than my 1982 R13, where the corresponding numbers are 15.01 and 14.76.
So I don't see that this is consistent with claims that the BC20 was designed with a cylindrical upper joint; and by extension I doubt that the Tradition will be that cylindrical either. Of course, these numbers tell you nothing about how the taper is achieved: conical, polycylindrical or what. Possibly the "cylindrical BC20" rumour could mean that it is a single cylinder for a significant stretch of the bore, and then changes more abruptly outside that range.
But overall, the BC20 top joint is not a cylinder, so it is very different from designs that really were close to a single cylinder - older Selmers or 1010s. It will be interesting if someone can report measurements of the Tradition.
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Author: seabreeze
Date: 2016-06-13 21:06
John,
Have you played a Buffet Tradition clarinet, and if so, how does it compare in performance characteristics to other clarinets that you like?
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Author: jthole
Date: 2016-06-13 22:53
The master (Daniel Gaultier) himself says: "Il ne faut pas croire que R.Carrée n’a fait que deux clarinettes fameuses R13 en 1950 et la RC en 1985. En 1963, il y a eu notamment la BC20, clarinette haut de gamme jouée par de grands clarinettistes. [...] La BC20 est une clarinette très différente de la R13 par sa perce qui est cylindrique et non poly-cylindrique comme la R13."
Source: http://rp-archivesmusiquefacteurs.blogspot.nl/2014/12/buffet-crampon-la-clarinette-au-cur.html
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2016-06-13 23:30
Hi Seabreeze - no, haven't got hold of a Tradition yet. But the differences between R13 and BC20 don't seem as great as the differences compared to products by other makers. So I suspect the Tradition will also differ subtly. And given the variation in Buffet output, you may need to try quite a few examples before you can be clear about the general effect of the new design.
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Author: Micke Isotalo ★2017
Date: 2016-08-04 20:28
The bore of the Tradition clarinet was discussed earlier in this thread. I tried out one yesterday, and made some measurements. First, the bore of the top joint wasn't circular but oval, in both ends (I believe it had changed since it was made, perhaps since the wood wasn't allowed to dry for as long as it should have been prior to manufacturing). Anyway, I measured the top to 14,9 mm at the largest point, and the bottom to 14,65, also at the largest point. Thus, at least the bore isn't cylindrical all the way through the top joint (apart from the ovality).
One of the side trillkeys was leaky, due to a visibly tilted pad in original mounting.
This was a selected instrument picked up in Paris, but by other criteria than air tightness or the shape of the bore :-) He who made the selection had said that it was easier to find a good Tradition A-clarinet than a Bb.
Micke Isotalo
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Author: Clarineteer
Date: 2016-09-16 07:59
Everything that I have ever read here on this forum and elsewhere on the web that has been written by experts who have made the proper comparisons has said that type of key plating or non plated keys and posts does not alter the sound in any way so how can Buffet and these expert players all of a sudden state that the non plated posts change and improve the sound. Is this just advertising hype?
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Author: Ed
Date: 2016-09-16 17:20
While I have read plenty over the years that has been written by physicists acousticians and other scientists that state that the material (even of the wood) does not make a difference, as it does not vibrate as the body of a violin does.
At the same time, I have heard plenty of musicians who state that they hear and feel a difference, even in blind tests. It makes me think that there may be something to it.
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2016-09-16 19:26
All I can say is go try one, if you like it buy it! Ok it plays differently from an R13, so if you pick it up, blow 5 notes on if and say, "It's not as good as an r13" you will not have figured that horn at all. I have to admit, I can't pick out a horn in an hour. Usually I'll try a few of the same model if one "jumps" out as being something special I'll buy that one. It will take me a month or so to figure out what a clarinet is all about. Will it take the same mouthpiece? the same reed type? Where is the "G" spot? A lot of clarinetists go to clarinet speed dating and propose before they finnish the cycle.
One piece of information that I've gleaned over the years of reading this board is this: This is board is full of posters who are clueless when it comes to really trying equipment. I never really hear of any kind of Scientific method being employed. The difference is emperical vs Scientific is this. "I really like this mouthpiece" vs "this is the best mouthpiece that has ever been built"
as far as the un-plated posts go. I imagine that those players who were involved in design, played a few that had plated posts and a few that were un plated, maybe they all thought there was "something" about the un-plated. Now if they came to that conclusion, that doesn't mean that what the felt was the plating, could there have been something out. It would be totally hard to "test" for it. Switch out the posts on the same clarinet? who could remember how a particular clarinet played with the other posts. Would the clarinet be in exactly the same regulation after you did that, who knows.
I've been playing the Tradition for 3 months now, I enjoy playing it. I like that it has a very different Timbre to the Divine and Tosca, and I really like the sounds of those model clarinets. I was over with Cecil Gold the other day, and he was playing his Tradition too. We both think the Tradition has a "Sweet" sound. It's hard to define what that means but we both felt that described it pretty well.
Tom Puwalski
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Author: dorjepismo ★2017
Date: 2016-09-16 21:37
For what it's worth, which isn't much, I tried a lot of instruments at ClarinetFest, albeit with my 1010 mouthpiece, so it wasn't really a decent comparison, but there I was with all those horns, including the Backuns with the automatic low notes mechanism and the heirloom furniture-grade barrels and bells, so why not? Never had a lot of luck with Buffets, but the Tradition did seem different, and had some of the things I like about 1010s, especially stability with jumps between registers and a free feel. Wouldn't attribute that to unplated posts, but hey. If I had to play on something they were selling there, it would be either a Tradition or an Uebel.
Is the thing about the posts advertising hype? Of course it is. Everything these companies put out is advertising hype. Why single out Buffet? You just need to try it, and you'll either like it or not. Everything else is words.
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