 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: CarlT
Date: 2015-02-21 03:31
This year marks my 5th year in a community band. I now play either second or third clarinet. I always played 2nd until a year ago when we got a very good first, so the former first now plays second, and I play third when there is a third part; second if not (wow, does this remind you of the Abbott and Costello, "Who's on First" skit?). BTW, we only have three clarinets in the band.
At any rate I feel that I could play first when/if required, and play it well, BUT I don't really care to, for I really like the harmony of all 3 parts so well that I'd rather play third with the harmony than first without it.
Do some of you feel the same? Just curious.
CarlT
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Author: Kel
Date: 2015-02-21 04:00
I played 1st clarinet throughout high school and in community band. Restarted 40 years later, and prefer 2nd now. There is real joy in the harmony parts. I play 3rd or 1st in a pinch, but the 2nd part harmonies appeal to me, and tend to be less work than the 1st part (which appealing to me at 72 years of age).
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2015-02-21 04:02
It's best if all three parts are well represented. A band with three good clarinet sections is great; not terribly long back I enjoyed hearing the US Marine band, and it was excellent everywhere, but the clarinets in particular drew my ear, of course; in some passages they were like a beautiful clarinet choir.
With only three clarinetists, I'd vote for covering all three parts. In larger bands, it seems typical that the strongest players all play first clarinet, the middling ones play second, and the weaker ones play third. This always struck me as illogical, with a better option being to seat the stronger players on the outside chairs of all three sections. I don't recall any conductor doing that; I've offered a number of times to play in the 3rd or 2nd section of bands, but inevitably I end up serving redundancy as a 1st.
One difference you sometimes see between 2nd and 3rd is that 2nd often simply mirrors the 1st part, perhaps down an octave, but 3rd might be something else altogether, maybe doubling horns or bassoons etc. And what was that march by Henry Fillmore where the thirds carry the melody alone in the trio? Ha, I can hear the tune in my head, but the title escapes me.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2015-02-21 04:29
I play in 2 community bands, one a New Horizons band that started as a novice band 5 years ago and the other a long-established civic concert band. I play 1st clarinet in the New Horizons band and 3rd in the civic band, which has a much higher standard of musicianship. I enjoy both, but the 3rd clarinet parts are much more interesting in terms of harmony.
Tony F.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2015-02-21 04:59
My 1 2 3 chair experiences are all from 1968-71 and are a bit dated, things do change. In my high school band it was strictly you started at the bottom in the group of 3rd chair players. Position was not by challenges (I hate that system) but by your progress in "technique", which was the band director's pseudo private lesson system. Actually, he was very good- I wonder now what instruments were his strong suit. Anyway, he'd keep track of your progress on his chosen literature and the scales, thirds, and arpeggios. Every 6 weeks he'd update the big chart on the wall, and the furthest advanced players became 1st, next group 2nd, and finally 3rd. Most folks settled in and didn't switch groups, but there were always surprises in the updated postings. I distinctly remember sending my girlfriend from 1st to 2nd section when I jumped from 2nd to 1st- ouch.
THEN I remember finding the 1st parts not that much tougher than 2nd, mostly, but higher range. Especially in the marching music we revisited briefly my last spring semester. Most painful was having to relearn everything, or sight read it with mixed success.
I like the idea of a mixture of player strengths on each part. That would not have worked well on our 1969 music- 3rd part was WAAAY easier than 2nd or 1st, and as I said not such a big jump between 2nd and 1st. Is that still true? Are 3rd parts not enough of a challenge for high end players?
Surely at the highest levels of classical music, all the parts are equally difficult, right? I wouldn't know, I've never been tempted to look. To me the ideal would be- all 3 parts are equally interesting, ranges are mixed up (not always 1st on top of chord and 3rd on bottom)- and solos occur equally in all 3, sometimes trading off from one part to another (that I bet NEVER happens- does it?).
Thanks for an excuse to daydream back 45 years...
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2015-02-21 05:29)
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Author: MSK
Date: 2015-02-21 06:24
OK, I have to admit I prefer melody and therefore prefer first part on anything where only the firsts get melody. I also like being first chair and getting the solos. That said, although I'm perfectly capable of playing altissimo, and rather not play a ton of it. If the first part is really high, it's not my favorite.
Now the corollary to this: When choosing solos to play in my church, I gravitate to pieces with lots of Chalumeau. I just love that deep woody sound. Of course, it is still the melody.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2015-02-21 08:52
Even if you are the best player in the room, your job isn't done. It expands from playing everything right to making it so that everyone else can play right.
I also play recorder, where I'm usually the best player by far. Just playing right drives me crazy and makes me mad at everyone else who can't keep up. I keep myself challenged by listening like crazy and adjusting so I'm always with the weaker players.
Ken Shaw
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Author: GLHopkins
Date: 2015-02-21 09:48
Beginning in high school and continuing on thru college and groups I've played in I've only played first part. I never really thought much about it. The last couple of years I've gone to play with a few community groups, and not wanting to horn in on someone else's domain, I've just sat with the 2nd or 3rd clarinets. I find I enjoy playing those parts as much or more than 1st.
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Author: JonTheReeds
Date: 2015-02-21 18:18
3rd clarinet for me! Starting clarinet in my forties has allowed me to take a step back. This means I'm less interested in the competitive side of things and more interested in just getting better
I play in two community wind bands and am a third in both. The firsts in both bands are way ahead of everyone else. The difference in technical prowess between 2nd and 3rd players isn't that great and, I proffer, some of the thirds are better than the 2nds. The music for firsts is very technical whereas the music for 2nds and 3rds is less so and similar to each other (normally just different parts of the harmony)
In one of the bands, I think I had an opportunity recently to progress to 2nds but made it clear I wasn't bothered. I decided that it wouldn't make much difference from a musical point of view as music for 2nds is similar, there is less focus on the thirds at the back, and the thirds are such nice people that every rehearsal is a lot of fun
A few years ago I would have jumped at the chance to 'progress' but now I just want to be better than I was 6 months ago, and I feel that I can do this as well, if not better, at home with a metronome and the particular notes that are giving me problems
When I feel that I am as good as the firsts I'll reconsider the situation, but that will be at least a good number of years
--------------------------------------
The older I get, the better I was
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Author: GeorgeL ★2017
Date: 2015-02-21 18:47
As someone who came to clarinet late in my musical life, I have played 1st clarinet parts only rarely, when nobody else will play those parts.
The biggest problem I have playing 3rd is that clarinet sections are usually set up with three rows, and the 3rds are in the back where they cannot hear the 1sts or 2nds, but can hear (too well) whatever loud instrument is behind us. Logically, the players most in need of hearing the other players are the 3rds, who usually do not play as well as the 1st or 2nd players.
Perhaps I've been spoiled by playing bass clarinet, which usually sits beside the 1st or 2nd clarinets and bassoons. I can hear everybody when on bass.
Has anyone ever tried arranging a clarinet section with some 1st, 2nd and 3rd players in each row?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-02-21 19:23
Posted in wrong thread.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2015-02-22 11:34)
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Author: MSK
Date: 2015-02-21 19:33
I have played in mixed ability bands where the director would plant some strong players in the 2nd and 3rd sections to help carry them. The duty generally rotated because, while they understood the need, they usually didn't like it. It's not so different from how my community orchestra places two really good violinists at the first stand of the second violin section. The less skilled violins generally play better and with more confidence with someone to emulate.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2015-02-21 19:44
I've mostly played 2nd (counter melody) clarinet, mainly because this was the only spot available, and there was/is kind of a bitch fight over the first parts, and the 3rds were happy were they were. I did have some first parts, but they weren't any better or more rewarding than other parts.
I've since moved on to bass clarinet.
--
Ben
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Author: TomS
Date: 2015-02-21 19:57
I've found that the 2nd part is often the easier ... the 3rd part is often playing through the "break" and is more awkward ...
Been in the hot seat, especially in the past, playing 1st and solo. I now get just as much enjoyment with the 2nd or 3rd Once your hormones taper off and you don't have anything to prove, you can have as much fun and satisfaction just making music, in any way ...
And, in a community band setting, I'd like the youngsters play the more exposed and difficult parts ... they need the experience and are more likely to keep coming back.
Want a really different blast? Double on E-flat and/or bass!
Tom
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Author: Slowoldman
Date: 2015-02-21 20:26
In high school and college, I played 1st. On returning to clarinet playing in my 60's, I joined a very good community band where I usually play 3rd. Our 1sts are quite good; and the 2nds and 3rds are all fairly similar in playing level. The "tradition" in the group is that the 2nd and 3rd clarinets occasionally swap parts to keep everybody interested and satisfied.
Lately, the guys playing 3rd have unofficially decided that (the issues of frequent playing across the break, and having to be "the violas" when playing any transcriptions, aside), we're just as happy to stay on 3rd and make sure the 3rd part is as strong as the 1st and 2nd.
I agree with TomS's comment about "Once your hormones taper off..." It's about everyone getting together to make good music and, hopefully, everyone being challenged by whichever part he/she is playing.
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Author: pewd
Date: 2015-02-21 20:31
I play whichever part I'm handed, to the best of my ability.
Put in enough time and effort, and you end up principal, then you decide who plays what.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: 2cekce ★2017
Date: 2015-02-22 03:19
I've always played 1st part thru high school and college and section leader both times so I got used to playing the melody. the community bands I play in
now (after college and working) I've played all three parts but still prefer
1st, I just like that range of the clarinet and have gotten pretty good at the altissimo over the years. In my marching band I'm handed 1st part because no one else can play in that register or they choose not to. In my concert band
I play 3rd part which is quite a challenge with this band and I double on the
Eb clarinet. the music director chooses challenging music in all ranges. I also double on flute in my marching band. guess it would be safe to say I prefer
the higher range on the instrument along with the melody. I have trouble with 2nd part due to its counter melody at times, so I prefer not to play 2nd. 1st
and 3rd get interesting parts I like to play, and my Eb soprano keeps my chops in shape.
Post Edited (2015-02-22 04:31)
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Author: derf5585
Date: 2015-02-22 04:06
pewd
Put in enough time and effort, and you end up principal, then you decide who plays what.
In other bands who decides who plays Solo 1st, 1st, 2nd, or 3rd
fsbsde@yahoo.com
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Author: davyd
Date: 2015-02-22 04:06
I've played all three parts at one time or another. Usually I'm on 2nd. For a year or so in one band, I was principal, because I wasn't afraid of cadenzas. But 1st parts tend to be a bit higher than I'm comfortable being; Eb6 is my limit.
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Author: gsurosey
Date: 2015-02-22 06:29
Depends which group I play in. In my main community orchestra, I like playing 2nd because that means I get to play all of the utility parts, too. There are 3 of us and I'm the swingman in the middle. If I'm playing Eb, bass, or sax, I move to the outside so 1st and 2nd can sit together and I have room for my extra stuff. If our principal has to miss a concert for whatever reason, I play 1st and the other girl plays 2nd (if he's out and I'm playing utility, we usually get a sub because the other girl doesn't want to play 1st). In another group, I like playing 1st because I can help out the younger players (it's a college-community orchestra).
In band, I tend to stay out of the seating stuff by playing bass clarinet (anything from people being offended by being asked to play 3rd in order to strengthen the section to people feeling that they've been in the band longer and therefore a new person shouldn't be sitting "above" them regardless of ability; it can be a cliquey group and I just want to play). Besides, when I joined, there were no bass clarinet players, so that made it easy to fill the need, plus the clarinet section is almost too big now. In the groups I sub in, I play whatever music I'm handed and am glad I got called in the first place.
----------
Rachel
Clarinet Stash:
Bb/A: Buffet R13
Eb: Bundy
Bass: Royal Global Max
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Author: spage
Date: 2015-02-22 14:00
with a better option being to seat the stronger players on the outside chairs of all three sections. I don't recall any conductor doing that;
This happened in the borough youth band I was in (a few decades ago!). While incoming players generally started on 3rd and then rose as their ability progressed, the longest standing players of good standard were switched and could find themselves anywhere . IIRC my last three concerts went 2nd desk 2nd, leader, principal 3rd :-)
It does indeed make a lot of sense but unfortunately doesn't seem to happen so much in mixed-ability adult ensembles unless people actively volunteer (FWIW, I like playing inside parts, including 'harmony clarinets' so can often be found on (whisper it) alto). Similar with strings in an amateur orchestra - apart from the front desk the 2nds are usually 'squidgier' than the 1st!
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Author: wdavis1948
Date: 2015-02-23 10:59
Depends a lot on your chops: How many 2nd clarinets do it take to screw in a light bulb? None: they can't get up that high : )
But seriously, folks..... also depends a lot on the music. I've easily played first and second in "lesser" community bands and in a couple of good college level community band, 2nd and an occasional 1st. But in a professional level concert band, I've played 3rd, hanging on by my fingernails.
I don't have any problem with altissimo but it's easier to play in tune with everyone else in the section in the middle of the horn. If you're the only one on the part, play where you can be a good complement to the lead player. Too many bands have a couple of strong guys on first and the rest of the section is much weaker. Covering all the parts should be a priority.
I've also played some bass clarinet, as well as alto sax and (currently) tenor sax, playing where they needed a part covered. My goal is to the best team player I can be and contribute wherever I can, no matter what chair and just have fun enjoying the success of the ensemble.
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Author: as9934
Date: 2015-02-24 02:37
In high school I have played all three parts and by in large prefer the first part. Our band is tackling Fusion by Balmages and Scenes From the Louvre by Dello Jollo and I'm on the third part. It's fun at times but we nearly never have the melody and when we do it's doubled by saxes/1rst clarinet/trumpet so we don't really get a chance to shine. I played first part last year and loved it so honestly I think my band director is trying to punish for not being in a band class last semester. Most fun I have had on a third part is in Vesuvius by Frank Ticheli. But that piece was just fun for everyone.
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Wind Ensemble
Buffet E11 clarinet , Vandoren Masters CL6 13 series mouthpiece w/ Pewter M/O Ligature, Vandoren V12 3.5
Yamaha 200ad clarinet, Vandoren B45 mouthpiece, Rovner ligature
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Author: WeberBrahms
Date: 2015-02-24 08:19
good wind ensemble literature is usually pretty awesome no matter the clarinet part you play.
it's an honor and a privilege to get to play the music of geniuses, but there are some real stinkers for 2nd clarinet in chamber/symphonic pieces.
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2015-02-25 01:19
I'm currently Associate Principal in my community band by directive of the Principal, but really miss being a strong player on the 2nd book. There's so many exposed sections in band literature where the 2nds are playing important harmonies--major and minor thirds in chord structures, for example--and those notes absolutely must be presented at exactly the right dynamic and in tune. The 2nd book calls for more finesse and critical listening than many 1st-only players realize.
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Author: DougR
Date: 2015-02-26 08:58
My recent experience has been almost entirely orchestral and big-band (not counting chamber music), and I find I really, really enjoy playing 2nd to a really really good principal and/or lead player. The challenge is, when I'm playing MY part, I also have to "play" theirs, so we blend as one voice (be it Brahms, Beethoven, Glenn Miller, Billy May, whomever). This frequently has the happy result of improving my playing, since I'm following the lead/principal players who are usually better technically. A 2nd player in those settings, whether 2nd alto or 2nd clarinet, also can have a lot of interesting soli lines with other instruments in the ensemble, and you need to blend and shadow them there as well. There's a difference in temperament too, I think: the principal/lead player is stating, "I think it goes like THIS," and the 2nd player is stating "WE think it goes like this!"
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2015-02-26 09:15
"I think: the principal/lead player is stating, "I think it goes like THIS," and the 2nd player is stating "WE think it goes like this!"
Love it! Best description I've heard.
Tony F.
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Author: clariniano
Date: 2015-02-27 04:26
I've been on a mix of parts, in high school and university and some community bands I was usually placed on the first part, but I generally take whatever part is given to me, in orchestras, I actually prefer playing the second clarinet part. If there are sufficient high quality players in a group, I am more than willing to make a strong impression on a well played second or third part. Plus it's great that you get to play generally in a greater range of registers.
Meri
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