 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: llamaboy12
Date: 2010-03-01 17:53
I have heard from some of my colleagues that Robert Marcellus was sort of a strange man with an equally odd teaching syllabus and approach. Can anyone that was a past student or friend describe this unique style that made him so great???
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Author: Ed
Date: 2010-03-01 21:18
I attended and played in his famous master classes and studied with him privately for a summer. There is nothing about him or his teaching that I would characterize as "odd", unless an amazingly gifted musician and teacher with a fabulous memory and ear could be described as such.
It was one of the highlights of my musical life.
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2010-03-02 00:49
My uncle, a pianist with perfect pitch, raved at how "in tune" the clarinets were in the Cleveland Orchestra.
On the other hand, famed tubist and breathing coach Arnold Jacobs claimed that Mr. Marcellus' former students were making a beaten path to his door to have their breathing problems fixed. My guess is that Mr. Marcellus taught the way he did things, which was sort of like Horowitz teaching piano students to play with extended fingers . It was highly effective, but sure not for everyone.
Post Edited (2010-03-02 00:51)
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2010-03-02 01:35
"I have heard from some of my colleagues that Robert Marcellus was sort of a strange man with an equally odd teaching syllabus and approach."
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Perhaps you can elaborate further.
Gregory Smith
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Author: mrn
Date: 2010-03-02 06:08
GBK wrote:
Quote:
James Gholson's now-famous interview with Robert Marcellus gives a nice insight into his teaching style and some of the basic syllabus he used.
Seems like a pretty conventional sort of syllabus to me--a little light on 20th century repertoire, maybe--but certainly not "odd."
From the interview, it seemed he had some pretty definite opinions about what he would consider right and wrong ways of doing things. I can't say I agree with all of them (especially as expressed in such rigid, black-and-white terms), but even those that I don't necessarily agree with are generally just more rigidly formulated versions of principles that I do apply in my own playing.
For instance, I think there is something to be said for being picky about fingerings on the basis of their sound, even if I don't share Marcellus's narrow definition of what constitutes a "legitimate" fingering. Likewise, having some guidelines as to when to use certain fingerings in the context of certain scales and arpeggios has been beneficial to me in my own playing, even though my own personal "rules" allow for more expansive use of the left hand sliver key and the side key F#. (I will say, though, that I do notice the difference in sound between the two F#'s Marcellus alludes to, and I do take that into account when I use it [through adjustment and/or deciding when to use it as opposed to doing a finger swap])
Post Edited (2010-03-02 06:20)
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Author: Sarah Elbaz
Date: 2010-03-02 07:52
I wonder if the chamber music in his syllabus was tought with an ensemble , or just the clarinet part?
I'm a little surprised that he didn't have Rossini and Nielsen on his list, and , of course, the Weber concertos.
I'll be happy to know from one of his students if he really did so many etudes.
Sarah
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2010-03-02 13:19
Not that this thread isn't relevant or timely but....there is so much information in the archives on this bboard and in the re-mailer list postings about this and other subjects regarding Marcellus, one could invest in a month of Sunday's perusing the reams of information already written by students and others that have had direct contact with him as a teacher - this rather than relying on hearsay and speculation.
Happy reading!
Gregory Smith
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2010-03-02 13:39
Words such as "odd" and "strange" as applied to Mr. Marcellus' teaching approach are at best misguided and at worst smack of libel.
Trust me - his manner of teaching was direct, honest and to the point. And the results speak for themselves.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2010-03-02 16:37
Sarah Elbaz wrote:
Quote:
I'm a little surprised that he didn't have Rossini and Nielsen on his list, and , of course, the Weber concertos.
I noticed that, too. I have also noticed, though, that there are some people who don't like Weber that much. There was an assistant band director I knew in high school who had studied with one of Daniel Bonade's pupils, and he made it fairly well known (at least to me) that he didn't have a very high opinion of my beloved Weber.
I have sometimes wondered if Bonade (who taught Marcellus) may have had similar views, based on his teaching syllabus (which you can find in his "Clarinetist's Compendium"), which also seems a bit light on Weber works and is quite heavy in etudes of French origin.
It is kind of interesting to see how different teachers/players approach things. I was not instructed in the Bonade/Marcellus paradigm, and my teacher and I spent a lot more time on solo repertoire, much less on etudes. I'm not mentioning that as a criticism of the Bonade/Marcellus approach--just to note that it's different from the approach my teacher took with me.
I think Rossini, Nielsen, and Weber's works call for a different sort of "personality" than you find in, say, Marcellus's Mozart recording or in most interpretations of the Brahms clarinet works--much more extroverted. The absence of these works in the syllabus suggests a subdued, warm, and mellow concept of the clarinet's personality as an instrument, in marked contrast to the fiery, dramatic manner in which Rossini, Nielsen, and Weber use the instrument. Interesting.
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Author: Sarah Elbaz
Date: 2010-03-02 18:23
mrm wrote:
"I noticed that, too. I have also noticed, though, that there are some people who don't like Weber that much. There was an assistant band director I knew in high school who had studied with one of Daniel Bonade's pupils, and he made it fairly well known (at least to me) that he didn't have a very high opinion of my beloved Weber."
Mitchell Lurie was a student of Bonade and he loved Weber, especially the Concertino.
Our conservatory library in Tel Aviv has the collection of Yona Ettlinger's music.
Few years ago I had a rehersal with one of my students on Weber concerto no. 1 and the pianist forgot to bring the music which she took from the library. I asked the librarian to give me the music from the Yona collection, and we found that there is no Weber there.....Later I looked at his recordings and again there was no Weber .My first teacher , who studies only with Yona always said that he doesn't like Weber's music for clarinet, but he did like his orchestral music. It's hard to belive that he couldn't overcome the hugh shadow of his teacher, although he was a very good clarinetist and musician.
When I look at the syllabus of Marcellus, I wonder how long he worked with a student and how many lessons he gave every week. I have and had several students who practice 3-4 hours a day, and can learn music within short time. If I try to estimate how long it will take them to learn the music in the list---I think that they will need about 5-6 years.
If he worked with advanced students for 2-3 years they probably had to practice 8 hours a day, even if they already know most of the music.
there is a clarinetist in Israel who studied with him, I think that I'm going to call her and ask some questions...:-)
Sarah
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Author: vin
Date: 2010-03-02 18:41
Mitchell Lurie HATED the Weber Grand Duo Concertante- "that's what they play on the East Coast."
Post Edited (2010-03-02 19:24)
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Author: Sarah Elbaz
Date: 2010-03-02 19:15
I worked with Mitchell on the concertos. He knew the music very well, played it alot and was happy to share his knowlegde. If he hated the Duo Concertante, he forgot to tell me about it.
BTW, do we know each other, I don't know who is hiding behind the name vin?.
Sarah
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Author: vin
Date: 2010-03-03 17:25
No, I can't say I've had the pleasure of meeting you.
I didn't get to work with Mitchell Lurie, but, three students of his, on separate occasions, told me that he hated the Grand Duo. Not all of Weber's music, obviously, just that piece.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2010-03-03 18:40
Sarah Elbaz wrote:
Quote:
When I look at the syllabus of Marcellus, I wonder how long he worked with a student and how many lessons he gave every week. I have and had several students who practice 3-4 hours a day, and can learn music within short time. If I try to estimate how long it will take them to learn the music in the list---I think that they will need about 5-6 years.
It does seem like an awful lot of etudes to study, especially if you're going straight through every book. Makes you wonder whether every student of his would have necessarily gone through every etude in every book, or if he would simply assign students etudes to work on based on their individual needs, and those just happened to be the books he used. If he did make everybody go through every etude in every book, it doesn't seem like there would be much time to spend perfecting each one.
At least when I was taking lessons, completing an entire book of etudes was never a goal. We'd work on etudes, to be sure, but never straight through and in order like that. We spent a lot more time on standard solo repertoire.
Post Edited (2010-03-03 19:33)
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Author: Sarah Elbaz
Date: 2010-03-03 18:52
I always though that if students spend an hour with Mozart or Brahms or any other composer they will learn more than any etude. The reason I use etudes is to help the students practice more.
Sarah
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Author: gwie
Date: 2010-03-03 19:18
I think looking at lists isn't indicative of what teachers teach.
Speaking also as a violinist here (and there is no shortage of technical traning material for that instrument!), while there are tons of etudes out there, the mission of the teacher is to be able to identify what technical skills a student cannot already execute and use the correct etude(s) to help them learn and refine that skill.
A student could spend on hour with Mozart or Brahms, but if they can't figure out *why* they're not able to play a specific passage, that is why a good instructor can pinpoint the issue at hand, and if necessary, find an etude or part of an etude that can be used to solve that problem.
Playing "straight through" etude books is pointless. I see many private teachers who do this with their students because they don't have the inclination and/or to ability to identify the individual characteristics of a student's playing to know what they need to work on.
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2010-03-04 02:57
I study with a Marcellus student now, and have met many. They all seem to enjoy etudes. I think it's because going straight through etudes at a somewhat quick pace (multiple etudes of 1-4 pgs each\week) forces you to learn different types of music in different styles, adapting very quickly. This being similar to what real world orchestra musicians have to be able to do.
It also makes sightreading and other things less arduous.
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Author: Sarah Elbaz
Date: 2010-03-04 04:39
gwie,
Every musician, like and other crafsman has a box of tools. Some of them are musical and some instrumental. The role of a teacher is to make sure that the student knows how to use the tools in his box and WHEN to use them.
If a student doesn't know how to play a difficult passage in Mozrt, he wouldn't know how to play it in the etude as well. The etudes can help in practicing TOOLS and not practicing problems.
As NBeaty worote- Marcellus used the etudes to help his student to complete long hours of practicing.
Sarah
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Author: Ed
Date: 2010-03-04 12:08
A number of years ago the noted clarinetist Bill Blount wrote an article for Windplayer Magazine about using characteristic etudes to learn style. For example, studying Cavallini or Labanchi etudes are very valuable in understanding the Italian operatic style. Likewise in the use of Jean Jean, Baermann etc to lean French impressionist, German romantic, etc. Many etudes are not only great technical studies, but also important musical resources as well.
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Author: Simon Aldrich
Date: 2010-03-04 15:36
When I studied with Marcellus, we did only one study the whole time.
I studied with him in what I believe were the final years he taught (1993/94). Maybe his interest in etudes depended on how advanced he was in his career.
----------------------------------------------------
Simon Aldrich
Clarinet Faculty - McGill University
Principal Clarinet - Orchestre Metropolitain de Montreal
Principal Clarinet - Orchestre de l'Opera de Montreal
Artistic Director - Jeffery Summer Concerts
Clarinet - Nouvel Ensemble Moderne
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Author: llamaboy12
Date: 2010-03-04 17:59
Perhaps i should have been more clear with my intentions. I was only meaning to follow up on some claims i have heard that his teaching syllabus and style was "unorthodox". I suppose i also wanted to start a conversation about teaching sylabii and what is right or wrong to include. Most of Mr. Marcellus' students are now professionals with jobs, so i guess i wanted to know what he was doing to produced such great players. :P
On etudes:
"I study with a Marcellus student now, and have met many. They all seem to enjoy etudes. I think it's because going straight through etudes at a somewhat quick pace (multiple etudes of 1-4 pgs each\week) forces you to learn different types of music in different styles, adapting very quickly. This being similar to what real world orchestra musicians have to be able to do.
It also makes sightreading and other things less arduous."
-NBeaty
I agree completely NBeaty. Etudes are more about learning about and adapting to different styles quickly, as well as improving technique. I am assigned about 2 Rose studies or a Jean Jean a week, and they have definitely helped in my overall proficiency of the instrument.
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