 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: PeterPC
Date: 2009-01-14 19:04
Attachment: DSCN5864 (Medium).JPG (124k)
Attachment: DSCN5869 (Medium).JPG (122k)
Hi
I have an older Buffet clarinet and need help identifying its model.
Running the number (without prefix “F”) F291855 results in:
Brand : Buffet Crampon
Instrument : BC 1112.AGlm
Serial number : 291855
Year of manufacturing : 06/04/1987
Looking at the clarinet its very possible its made in this period.
All pieces have the same stamp: "Buffet Crampon & Cie, A Paris, BC, Made in France", no model number on the parts !
Looking forward for your reply
Thank’s
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Author: PeterPC
Date: 2009-01-15 20:36
Attachment: DSCN5876 (Medium).JPG (124k)
Hello Chris,
Thanks for your quick reply and your hawkeye ! Didn't expect it was a RC !
I'm a starting collector with some beautiful clarinets (Selmer n-serie, Selmer series 9, Uebel, Kohlert, J. Albert, Hammerschmidt etc.) and i'm enjoying it
V E R Y much. Another BC also doesn't have a model# and has the serial F158800
Brand : Buffet Crampon
Instrument : N? 2 BN sans Mib grave
Serial number : 158800
Year of manufacturing : 07/04/1975
I'm not an expert, but try to read and surf the internet as much as possible but this info from Buffet doesn't bring me a bit further. I don't understand the remarks at "instrument: N? 2 BN sans Mib grave" do you ?
I've added a picture, the clarinet is in bad condition and I'm considering to overhaul it completely if its worth.
best regards and thanks again for replying,
Peter
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-01-15 21:00
Looks like one of the mid-'70s R13 models with a Full-Boehm system minus the low Eb. Back during that time, Buffet made a number of variants on the standard 17/6 R13 configuration, and you could get some of the extra keywork, and plating in silver or gold instead of standard nickel, for extra money.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
Post Edited (2009-01-15 22:43)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-01-15 22:21
Funny that - when I edited my reply I added and then deleted the part where I mentioned (as Jeff has done) that Buffet used to offer all manner of keywork options until sometime in the '90s (as did Selmer and Leblanc), so you could get the standard and Prestige versions of R13 (and possibly the RC) with a variety of keywork options from the standard 17/6 through to full Boehms (20/7).
I should have left that part on there, but didn't think it was important until seeing the photo of the Buffet with 19/7 configuration (which is what I was brought up on - but mine are Selmers, not Buffets). As there's no other markings on the top joint from what I can see, I'd go with it being an R13 as well.
Now is the date in dd/mm/year order (7th of April 1975), or mm/dd/year order (July the 4th 1975)?
I used to keep a folder with all the literature on the major clarinet makers (including Buffet) from the mid-'80s which listed all the variants within the model type, but what with moving house and other factors over time it's been mislaid.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2009-01-16 15:54)
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Author: PeterPC
Date: 2009-01-16 11:02
About the year of manufacturing; its common use in europe they use the dd/mm/year which dates the instrument to 7th of April 1975.
Still I dont know what the characters : N? 2 BN stand for.
What I do know is: "sans Mib grave" means "without (sans) Eb (Mib) Low (grave)", so without low Eb key
The letter "F" stands for european market clarinets?
About the RC: BC 1112.AGlm ; AG is for silver, but what means "lm" and BC 1112 ?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-01-16 11:26
Thanks - I wasn't sure if France used the same date sequence as here the UK - dd/mm/year (I know Sweden do something different too).
"What I do know is: "sans Mib grave" means "without (sans) Eb (Mib) Low (grave)", so without low Eb key"
Yeah, it's almost full Boehm but minus the low Eb key.
I've got an old Buffet full Boehm with a split top joint which I'll get round to rebuilding one day - it's the middle one pictured here:
http://www.clarinetperfection.com/galleryclar/Keywork/FB/01.jpg
I think BC1112 may be the catalogue number, though I've got no idea what '1m' stands for, or the 'N? 2 BN'.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2009-01-16 12:24
Re BC1112
...BC = Buffet Crampon
.....11 = Bb
.......12 = RC
Below is a collation of information from the BB regarding common info on Buffet site
Model designation n�1 indicates polycylindrical bore
Am�rique appears to be the designation for an R13 made for American market
It looks like that if there are no other codes, it is assumed to be a R13
Decoding the letter and number sequence
For a sequence such as BCxxyy(c)-d-e ...............
BC = Buffet Crampon
xx
This specifies the key, with
11 = Bb (old code, SiB=Bb)
12 = A (old code, La=A)
15 = Eb (old code, MiB=Eb)
17 = F
yy
This specifies the model, with
02 = E13
12 = RC
31 = R13
83 = Prestige RC Bass to Eb
93 = Prestige RC Bass to low C
23 = Basset
c
Optional code, meaning
G = greenline
L = Left hand Eb lever
d
Specifies key plating, where
02 = silver
05 = nickle
e
Specifies pitch
0 = 440
2 = 442
4 = 444
So
BC1131(L)-02-0 equals a Bb (11) R13 (31) with a LH Eb lever (L) with silver plated keys (02) tuned to 440 (0)
Information attributed to Jack Kissinger and Francois Kloc
Post Edited (2009-01-16 12:27)
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Author: PeterPC
Date: 2009-01-16 21:24
Chris and Chris,
Thanks, that's a clear answer !
I'm astonished how much expertise you guys have. I copied the info to harddisk for future use. It's really nice to know some more from your clarinet than just the brand name. As a starting collector I could use this kind of help very much.
You do have a couple of very nice clarinets Chris, there's a nice job to do.
Clarinets with low Es key are rare in the Netherlands, I used to have one but sold it (and I regret it) it was a Hofinger (Bruxelles), full Boehm system but still own a Hofinger A-clarinet which I locked up in my cabinet !
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2009-05-18 13:27
Interesting, I just bought an A of about the same type, without any model marking too:
Brand : Buffet Crampon
Instrument : N� 2 BN La sans Mib grave
Serial number : 171051
Year of manufacturing : 26/10/1976
The seller thought it must be an RC because of the extended keywork.
(Note: here in Holland the RC is what the R13 is in America.)
However, it plays different than my RC A, the sound is more compact and
I like the resistance and brilliance very much. The original barrels (if they are original of course) are not that good. With some other barrel the instrument really sing!
But I am not so sure the instrument is an R13 as is suggested earlier in this thread. In other posts is mentioned that No 1 indicates a polycilindrical bore design and is identical with the R13 model.
But here we are talking about No 2. Could this be a different design, may be not polycilindrical but with a reverse taper? If I look into te bore I don't see the typical "edge" of a polycilindrical bore but I can see some kind of reverse taper in the upper joint. And are there any R13's ever made with the European higher pitch? Because this instrument has the F serial number prefix (A=442-444).
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2009-05-20 21:38
2 BN sans Mib grave
Might that mean full Boehm without the low Eb?
Does your instrument go down to Eb?
Chris
Edited - Apologies. Did not read back far enough to see that this has already been discussed
Post Edited (2009-05-20 22:25)
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2009-05-20 21:42
No, mine goes also to low E.
I expect if you have a 'full' full boehm the "sans Mib grave" is not mentioned.
But it has all the other full boehm options: articulated gis, fork Bb, etc.
Jeroen
Post Edited (2009-05-20 21:48)
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2009-05-20 21:59
Peter, would you please contact me by personal e-mail if you like?
We live in the same country and it would be nice to meet each other and have a look on our shared "mystery" buffets.
BTW. I am a little further in decoding the "N? 2 BN sans Mib grave".
The No 2 has probably nothing to do with bore design but is simply the Boehm system number (Nr 1 :standard Boehm; Nr 2: full Boehm). e.g. Selmer still uses this numbers.
What BN stands for is still not clear to me. The instrument could be an european pitch R13 though, the way it plays seems related to the american bore models.
Jeroen
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Author: Saxofyl
Date: 2009-05-21 14:11
Hello,
I'm a long-time sax player who's finally getting to work on his clarinet playing, so I went looking for a nice instrument that I could grow into. Hence, I don't have nearly the knowledge of clarinet as I do with saxophone. The clarinet I got (on eBay) was billed as a 1958 E-13. The serial number is 58143 and it says Buffet & Crampon in an oval logo. Looking at a list of Buffet serial numbers I got from this web site, I see that there were no E-13s before 1961 and 58143 would be from 1981-1983. The only other 58XXX numbers are for R-13s, and 58143 would fall in the mysterious period from 1945-1957 (with about 3,000 per year), with this number being from 1957, as the 1958 numbers start with 58835. How can I tell if I have a '57 R-13 or an early 80s E-13? And what would be the differences between the two models? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
Mike
Post Edited (2009-05-21 14:12)
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2009-05-21 14:55
I think you have the R13 if there is no model marking beneath the logo on the left-hand body part.
The serial number check on
http://www.buffet-crampon.com/en/instruments.php
does not return a result but e.g. 58835 does give a R13 like result.
Probably the buffet database does not contain earlier numbers than around 58835. Anyone has lower numbers that do exist?
Jeroen
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Author: Saxofyl
Date: 2009-05-22 15:20
No model number anywhere, so I guess I have an R-13. I had gone to the Buffet web site and searched for the serial number and got the same non-result. That seemed to indicate an E-13 (I supposed they're not considered professional) but thanks for giving me something more definitive.
Mike
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2009-05-22 17:59
Mike,
A 1958 E13 would be prominently marked as an Evette & Schaeffer so the seller apparently didn't really know what s/he had. The instrument would also have a K prefix to the serial number. In fact, an early '80s E13 should still have a K-prefix to the serial number. (The prefix is often omitted in serial number lists.) So, absent that and the E13 marking on the upper joint, it sounds as though you have an early R13. (Though there was a distributor/repair tech on the Klarinet list some years ago who claimed that there was a period around 1981 when Buffet did not mark any of its models, making them somewhat more difficult to identify (one had to go by serial number and country of origin). I've never seen confirmation of that claim, however.)
Out of curiosity, does your clarinet have a flat spring along the bottom side of the arm that attaches to the touch piece of your C#/G# key or does it have a needle spring parallel to the key's tube? Also, do the throat G# and A keys share a post (3 posts for the two keys) or do they each have their own two posts?
Best regards,
jnk
Post Edited (2009-05-22 18:20)
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Author: Saxofyl
Date: 2009-05-22 18:42
Jack,
Thanks for the additional info. There is a needle spring keeping the C#/G# key closed and the throat keys do not share a post. It was made in France (something I didn't mention in my original inquiry). Were the E-13s made elsewhere? I chose this clarinet to bid on based on the fact that I had read somewhere that the wood available in the late 50s was of higher quality than that earlier or later. I had done some serial number research so I could determine the time period. In my ignorance, I went out on a limb and it looks like it might have worked. Now, do you know if there is anything to the wood-quality story I based my decision on?
Mike
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2009-05-23 17:55
E-13's were (are) made in France in the same factory as the professional models, according to Buffet.
The separate posts indicate a polycylindrical bore R13, (rather than a pre-R13 "Master Bore") but that would be expected by 1957, if that is the year of manufacture (rather than a few years earlier). The needle spring is a bit of a surprise to me. Is it mounted on the key or on the metal piece on the upper joint that holds the posts for the key?
Many clarinetists believe that the wood currently being used by Buffet, particularly in their R13's, is not as good as it used to be. I don't know when the deterioration began, if indeed it did. The company uses a different method to cure (age?) the wood than they used to. I've never heard that the wood in the 50's was any better quality than before or for some years after. The nicest piece of wood I have is a simple system Lafayette clarinet from the late 1800's - early 1900's. The grain is so tight that when I washed the instrument during the overhaul process, I began to suspect it might be plastic. (It's wood.) Good wood was apparently available in greater quantity in the '50s than it is today. When did the shortage begin to manifest itself? I don't know. Another thing to keep in mind, though, is that in the 1950's, the R13 was Buffet's top-of-the-line professional model. Nowadays, it's their entry-level professional model. From around the time yours was made until the late 60's - early 70's is considered by some to be Buffet's "Golden Age." But that view is not universally held.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: oliver sudden
Date: 2009-05-23 18:23
Speaking of the wood, I suppose there might be some out there who don't know about all this yet...
http://www.mpingoconservation.org/
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Author: Saxofyl
Date: 2009-05-28 16:39
Sorry it's taken me a while to answer your post. We took advantage of the long weekend to get out of town for a break and had left the clarinet with the local repair guru for some cork work and just got it back yesterday evening in time for a rehearsal. I hope we're talking about the same needle spring. What I'm looking at is mounted on the post near the tone hole which is near the bottom of the body joint held by the right hand. It runs upward, parallel to the pivot rod, a little less than an inch to where it pushes against a hook attached to the rod. At any rate, I don't see a flat spring on the touch piece arm. If it would help I could try to get a picture of it. This is becoming fascinating. I had no idea model identification could get this complex on these instruments. Thanks to everybody for their expertise.
Mike
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2009-05-28 18:02
No need for a picture, Mike. It's right where I expected it to be and it confirms some information from a previous thread that I was curious about.
Many thanks,
jnk
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-05-28 23:18
The letters below the oval part of the logo and above the MADE IN FRANCE line are BC (Buffet Crampon), not RC, for Robert Carrée, the designer of the R-13. He may or may not have been involved in the design of the RC. See http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=263568&t=263540.
The RC logo is stamped below the "MADE IN FRANCE" line http://www.brassnwoodwind.com.au/108-0834_IMG.JPG, or on the silver escutcheon on the RC Prestige http://cgi.ebay.nl/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390024626031. On Peter's photos,
Therefore the instrument is not an RC, but a European-pitch R-13 with the left Ab/Eb lever -- what used to be called the R-13-1/2. See http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=51143&t=51135.
The evolution of Buffet keywork is described in more detail than anyone could reasonably want at http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=11130&t=11130. For this and other information see http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=41228&t=41179 and the links posted there. In particular, the pre-R-13 instruments had flat springs for the throat A, the C#/G# and the right F#/C# keys, changing to needle springs on the R-13.
The switchover to the R-13 occurred between serial numbers 48707 and 48829, at the end of 1954 or the beginning of 1955. While there were experimental, one-off hybrids in 1954, often without serial numbers, F291855 is long after the change, as Jeroen's 171051.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Jeroen
Date: 2009-05-29 09:09
Ken,
Peter has posted 2 buffets. The first one (s/n 291855) is clearly an RC because of the BC 1112.AGlm type and the 'RC' inscription below the 'Made in France' that can be (not that easy though) seen on his second photo (DSCN5869 (Medium).JPG).
The second instrument (s/n 158800) is indeed a European R-13, like mine (s/n 171051).
Jeroen
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