 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Joarkh
Date: 2009-05-11 13:55
From what I have seen, it seems to me like composers have stopped writing for the A clarinet. Does the combination of the possibilities of the clarinet (as opposed to the simple clarinets of the early 19th century) and the somewhat atonal character of many modern pieces make the A clarinet unnecessary, other than from a historical point of view?
As I said, I haven't seen the A clarinet used in contemporary music, but then I really haven't seen that much contemporary music. Has everyone else seen it used, and if not, does anyone have an opinion regarding when composers stopped writing clarinet parts in A?
In my view, use of the A clarinet must be closely connected to the tonality of the music as the reason that A clarinets exist is that clarinets didn't play equally well in all keys (and still doesn't completely).
I don't know very much about this aspect of clarinet history, and am thankful to any answers,
Joar
Clarinet and saxophone teacher, clarinet freelancer
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2009-05-11 14:01
Well, the Sutermeister Capriccio and Stravinsky Three Pieces are both solo works using A clarinet. They are not entirely "contemporary," having been composed more than 50 years ago.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-05-11 14:31
Interesting thought here. I have seen many posts on this board that pretty much claim the A and Bb sound the same which would seal the lid on arguments for the use of the A in all cases except for that extra half step at the bottom.
As far as I know Italian clarinetists have been using only the Bb (of the two under discussion) for generations, preffering to transpose all A and C parts on the Bb.
I'll say this, there ARE many instances in which the fingerings of certain keys lends itself to being played on one versus the other, and in that players will probably still keep them both on hand. In addition, die-hard fans still insist that Mozart (and such) sounds better on the A.
.....................Paul Aviles
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2009-05-11 15:19
In my experience the A is used in Contemporary music. I infact used mine, allbeit for one piece, in a programme of premiers. I also premiered a solo clariney piece for A last October. They are there, you just have to look.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: William
Date: 2009-05-11 15:29
There would be little need for us to pack our A clarinets if the strings would learn to play some flats...........
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-05-11 15:30
I'd be curious as to how many clarinetists can actually tell the tonal difference (in a properly-conducted double-blind test) between Bb and A clarinets. I don't think I could. I'm fairly certain the audience can't. With modern keywork, playing in all keys on the Bb clarinet shouldn't be a problem.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2009-05-11 15:37
I've written for A and played new music on A, though usually when I write for A it's because it lies under the fingers much better. I've been able to tell an A from a Bb in the nosebleed section of the Dorothy Chandler.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Joarkh
Date: 2009-05-11 15:39
Yes, Katrina, when I spoke of contemporary music I meant music from maybe the last twenty years, not Stravinsky and Sutermeister.
I am also open to the possibility that such pieces exist, although I haven't seen them yet.
Which pieces are you referring to, Cigleris?
Joar
Clarinet and saxophone teacher, clarinet freelancer
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2009-05-11 15:40
Hi Joarkh:
As the principal clarinetist of The American Composer's Orchestra here in NYC for the past 30+ years, I can assure you the A clarinet is not "dead."
The Orchestra has commissioned and recorded hundreds af new works from the 20th & 21st Centuries, and many of them, perhaps 25-30% have required me to play my A clarinet.
I'm certain you'd be interested in our Web-site and programs for next season?
Check out: http://www.americancomposers.org/
Don't write-off your A clarinet just yet!
P.S. My new Web-site also has some interesting A clarinet on the SOUNDS 1, 2,3 tabs. Give a listen! http://johnmosesclarinet.com
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
Post Edited (2009-05-11 15:42)
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-05-11 15:40
Katrina wrote:
<<Well, the Sutermeister Capriccio and Stravinsky Three Pieces are both solo works using A clarinet. They are not entirely "contemporary," having been composed more than 50 years ago.>>
Some other newer "modern" works featuring the A clarinet would include the Nielsen Concerto, Bartok's Contrasts, Hindemith's Clarinet Concerto, and Poulenc's Sonata for Two Clarinets.
Composers still write A clarinet parts in orchestral scores. For example, our orchestra this past season played a suite of movements from one of the Harry Potter movies, which called for an A clarinet.
And there are plenty of modern pieces that should have been written for the A clarinet, but weren't. One can argue that Francaix's Clarinet Concerto (written in the late 1960s) is made needlessly difficult by the composer's making the wrong choice of clarinet.
The main value of an A clarinet is that it facilitates playing with stringed instruments, which favor sharp keys (notice that with the except of the Poulenc piece--all of these pieces I mentioned are meant to be played with strings). This is why Ginastera's Variaciones Concertantes, to give an example fresh on my brain, is much easier on the A clarinet. That piece is constructed on a guitar-based tonal framework--the opening notes on the harp are the same as the 6 open strings on a guitar, and the piece as a whole centers around the very guitar-friendly G Major/e minor tonalities (which become a rather foreign-feeling A Major/f# minor on a Bb clarinet, but a more manageable Bb Major/g minor on the A clarinet). As someone noted in another thread on this piece, Ginastera intended for the clarinetists to transpose the part as desired (when we played this, my rental part [2nd clarinet] even came with an A clarinet part for the last movement).
As long as there are stringed instruments to play with, there will be a place for the A clarinet.
A primary disadvantage in writing for the A clarinet is that a lot of amateurs don't own one. Since amateurs (especially schools) account for a lot of the sheet much purchases out there (and since they are the consumers least likely to know how to transpose their own parts) it makes *business* sense for publishers to print parts for Bb instead of A, even if it doesn't make much musical sense.
Post Edited (2009-05-11 15:54)
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-05-11 15:51
David Spiegelthal wrote:
<<With modern keywork, playing in all keys on the Bb clarinet shouldn't be a problem.>>
But just because you CAN play in all keys on a Bb clarinet, that doesn't mean that it's a good idea. You can get much smoother legato, better intonation, and better tonal characteristics when you stick to simpler key signatures, even with modern keywork.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2009-05-11 15:52
The piece I premiered was called Upon Convergence by Sohrab Uduman, it was written in 2006.
Here is the link to my Myspace where you can hear it if you like
>www.myspace.com/petercigleris<
2nd piece on the list
The other's were part of a contemporary music ensemble I play with, the concert was premiering Six Word Operas. At least one part was A, off the top of my head.
Peter Cigleris
Post Edited (2009-05-11 15:52)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-05-11 16:17
In the examples of cigleris and John Moses I assume the pieces were written for them to play knowing they had an A clarinet to play. Or instead written for their group knowing there was an A clarinet. That is the same when someone write a piece for me to play, they won't write for A clarinet because I don't play it. This shows that composers write for the people who will play their music. I don't know if it says anything about A clarinets.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-05-11 16:29
Dear Dave Spiegelthal,
I agree with MRN in that you may just want an easier time of it. My favorite example of late is the Daphnis and Chloe Suite......of course this example kinda turns the heart of this thread upside down. A Russian friend of mine insisted that he and his peers all preffered to play the "A" parts for Daphnis on "Bb" even though it's written for "A." It doesn't make the resulting key easier, but it DOES make most of the worst patterns easier.
..........just some food for thought.
.................................Paul Aviles
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-05-11 16:37
There is a piece by Keiki Okasaka called "Hasen Spiel" (about 1999~2001, can't remember) for UNACCOMPANIED clarinet in A. Why not Bb?
The theme is a play on words (with reference to the concert pitch) that would not be there if it were all a half step up. From a performance perspective, I personally don't see that it is more suited to the A than the Bb, but I always perform it on A.
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Author: oliver sudden
Date: 2009-05-11 17:32
One can argue that Francaix's Clarinet Concerto (written in the late 1960s) is made needlessly difficult by the composer's making the wrong choice of clarinet.
1968, says my score.
What is this furphy? The Françaix has plenty of 'white-note' music in it and scarcely any really tricky stuff in the sharps. Play it on A and you'll have to play a Db major scale right near the beginning where Françaix wrote C major. I reckon he planned it quite carefully.
Has anyone out there actually played it on an A?
Has anyone out there played the Mozart concerto or quintet or the Brahms trio or quintet on Bb?
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Author: Pappy
Date: 2009-05-11 17:38
I think there is a difference in the quality between the A and the Bb - but as I type that it I'm thinking that for me it might be other factors. My A is a late 50's Selmer CT and my Bb is an early 60's R-13. The difference in sound quality between them may be attributable to design differences between the two models rather than the pitch they are tuned to. The other problem I have with my A (not sure of "all" A's) is that my hands are rather small. A Buffet Bb fits me very well. My Selmer A just feels too big and "clunkly" to me and I think it affects how well I play it.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-05-11 19:52
oliver sudden wrote:
<<What is this furphy? The Françaix has plenty of 'white-note' music in it and scarcely any really tricky stuff in the sharps. Play it on A and you'll have to play a Db major scale right near the beginning where Françaix wrote C major. I reckon he planned it quite carefully.>>
So if there's "scarcely any really tricky stuff in the sharps" what was it that led Jack Brymer to write that it was--in his estimation--unplayable? (Or for David Pino to suggest that it would be considerably easier to play if transposed for A?)
Did we all just read the books, chicken out, and decide it wasn't worth the $40.00 to find out for ourselves??? 
Post Edited (2009-05-11 22:40)
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2009-05-11 20:44
I have two copies of the Francaix, triple the fun if you throw in the Theme and Variations
Peter Cigleris
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2009-05-11 20:58
I wouldn't bet on being able guess which clarinet was used in a particular performance, but I would bet that I can tell the difference between the two instruments played by the same player performing the same piece transposed to provide identical pitches.
There have been quite a few times that I played passages on the "wrong" clarinet because of how one or the other shades certain notes, or because the timbre of one or the other fits the passage better,...and even times when I've transposed entire pieces (shame on me) for the "wrong" instrument for the same reasons.
My sense is that being able to hear a difference wouldn't be that hard for most musicians in a "side-by-side" comparison, but pinning down which clarinet is being played in any given piece is probably impossible, especially because every player sounds different anyway.
(Apologies if I duplicated someone else's response.)
B.
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2009-05-11 21:12
When I was a student, in the late '60s, few of us, even at the college level, owned A clarinets.
My copy of the Bartok "Contrasts" was published with a Bb part, and I had that down cold at one point.
I was recently asked to play it again, forty years later, and now I have to learn what is for me nearly a whole new piece if I want to be 'correct." With the vagaries of age, it ain't easy.
O, for the days when "making do with what you have" was acceptable!
B.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2009-05-11 23:00
It may be OK for those "virtuosi" out there to play fast and fluently in extreme keys but I certainly can't and I'm sure that many of the rest of us could not perform anything like as smoothly and fluently on the "wrong" instrument. Just analysing the finger patterns involved in some passages must logically show that the breakdown point must come earlier for virtually everyone when choosing the more difficult technical option.
I'm keeping my A handy for sure.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-05-11 23:10
Here's something interesting I didn't know. According to this post by Sean Osborn on the Klarinet list, the Francaix Concerto WAS originally written for A clarinet, but because it's actually easier to play on the Bb, it was later transposed.
http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/2003/09/000604.txt
If that's true, then the ugly key signature is likely just an unfortunate by-product of the transposition process. Perhaps this piece is not as hard to play as it is to read. I may have to give this piece a try and find out the awful truth for myself...
Post Edited (2009-05-11 23:32)
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Author: armadillo
Date: 2009-05-11 23:15
Yeah, how many players can honestly say the Francaix isn't exceptionally difficult - based on their ability to play it accurately at tempo. It's freakin' hard, end of story!
The E major and B major runs and arpeggio patterns maybe aren't that hard when played at half speed - but at the marked tempi...
buffet R13, VD M30, V12 #3, VD Klassik (perf. & reh)/Rovner leather(practice)
Post Edited (2009-05-11 23:17)
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Author: jcfasanar
Date: 2009-05-12 02:04
isn't exceptionally difficult for me, just not easy. And it's a pleasure to play it, wonderful piece.
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Author: allencole
Date: 2009-05-12 03:19
There's a lot of truth in what's been posted regarding making the music more accessible to amateurs by avoiding A clarinet parts, but I can't see the instrument disappearing.
I primarily played my A in a western band, and there was a big difference from the B-flat. I thought that the altissimo register was much more mellow, and it was flat out gorgeous in the chalimeau. You haven't lived until you get to play Faded Love on an A clarinet.
And let's face it, the jazz solos are a lot hotter in 1 flat than they are in 4 sharps!
Allen Cole
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2009-05-12 08:07
> playing with stringed instruments
Conversely, brass instruments favour flat keys (a cornet pitched in Bb, so I'm told, will ideally play in Bb as written, sounding Ab), so if you play with brass, concert, wind or military bands, you'll only very rarely find a part in 'A'. In fact, I can't remember the last time I saw one, other than the very very occasional bit I've transposed ... anyone?
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Author: Nessie1
Date: 2009-05-12 08:31
I don't think the A clarinet it an anachronism. Whether you need it all depends on what kind of playing you do. Leaving aside unaccompanied works where the composer may have had tone colour in mind (or required that all-important bottom E on the A), if you are not that advanced a player, you will not cope better trying to transpose an A part on your B flat instrument than you will playing it as written on an A - I know, I had to try early in my clarinet career!.
However, it does seem a shame to me that arrangements for school and amateur orchestras so often have no A clarinet parts which often means that the clarinets end up playing in written A or E major which is not only quite tough "mentally" for an elementary or young player but also leads to fingering issues with the little fingers. I know that not all schools have an A clarinet but some do and it would be nice to have the option.
Coversely, one or two of the best amateur clarinetists I know don't own A clarinets at all because they do almost exclusively band playing which, of course, is all B flat.
Vanessa.
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Author: clariniano
Date: 2009-05-12 13:41
I definitely think there is a difference between the tone quality of the A and Bb clarinets. I've used the A in a number of my husband's arrangements for clarinet and piano, including his transcription of Schubert's well known A major piano sonata, which is quite difficult to play and read on the Bb but is easy on the A. To me, a lot of music sounds wrong if played on the worng clarinet. I think I may have composed a piece that uses the A over the Bb, and I know some of the scores I get online I put the solo part for clarinet in A due to the key of the piece.
Meri
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-05-12 14:35
Of course the A clarinet can sound a half tone lower than the Bb so sometimes a composer uses it to sound that pitch. We come across a lot of music for the A clarinet in orchestra music. I think some composers switch to the A clarinet when the key signature begins to have too many flats or sharps. I think that's the reason that different clarinets were used in the first place back when the clarinet could not play in every key. Over the years the Bb and A became the most often used and preferred. Some composers just don't think about it. It's not uncommon for an orchestra player to transpose a passage in either direction if the passage "Lies" better on the other clarinet.
I've noticed a great many times that students get a darker, warmer sound on their A clarinet than they do on their Bbs. I've commented many times at juries or recitals that their tone quality was much better on the A clarinet than they did on their Bbs and they should aim for that quality on their Bbs as well. I feel that my tone is a bit warmer on my A too but I hear very little difference, if any, when I listen to a recording of my playing. With that said, if I'm in the audience of a symphony concert I find it almost impossible to tell which clarinet the player is playing on in the hands of an accomplished player. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Simon Aldrich
Date: 2009-05-12 17:11
I am off to France in a half hour. While there my contemporary ensemble is playing the premiere of a piece written for us by the wonderful British composer Jonathan Harvey, "Sringara Chaconne" (2008).
There are two clarinet parts, on is on Bb and one on A, even thought the part does not contain a low E.
I would ask Harvey why he wrote the part for A clarinet but he has a condition at the moment that prevents him from flying so he will not be there.
------------------------------------------------------------
Simon Aldrich
Clarinet Faculty - McGill University
Principal Clarinet - Orchestre Metropolitain de Montreal
Principal Clarinet - Orchestre de l'Opera de Montreal
Artistic Director - Jeffery Summer Concerts
Clarinet - Nouvel Ensemble Moderne
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Author: marshall
Date: 2009-05-12 22:42
There are cases where composers ask for specific clarinets for their specific timbre. Mahler is a great example of this. His ear was so acute and well-trained that he could hear the difference between all of the clarinets, even as a non clarinetist. Off of the top of my head, I can tell you that in the first movement of his second symphony (the re-orchestrated Totenfeier) that there are sections where one clarinetist will be playing, say, Bb while another is to be playing C. In the specific section I'm thinking about, the third clarinetist is playing C clarinet in concert C minor (which would technically be easier on Bb clarinet...but I don't want to argue two flats) with the flutes...but when the bassoon takes over the melody, it's doubled by the first clarinetist, who is playing on Bb.
Then again, there are other composers (Copland sticks out in my mind) who can hardly hear the difference between soprano and bass clarinet, let alone Bb and A.
The other thing you have to keep in mind is the fact that, while modern composers are using A clarinet less and less, the romantic composers still used A clarinet extremely extensively. Can you imagine playing the Scheherezade solos on Bb clarinet? Capriccio Espagnol? Daphnis and Chloe? Firebird? Some of them would take months of practice to play as cleanly on Bb as you can on A, and, sad as it is, contemporary music simply isn't played as much as Brahms, Mahler, and Shostakovich.
Speaking of Shostakovich...can you imagine playing that solo at the beginning of the third movement of his ninth symphony on Bb? It'd be nuts...and damn near impossible now that I think about it.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2009-05-13 12:37
marshall wrote:
> There are cases where composers ask for specific clarinets for
> their specific timbre. Mahler is a great example of this. His
> ear was so acute and well-trained that he could hear the
> difference between all of the clarinets, even as a non
> clarinetist. Off of the top of my head, I can tell you that in
> the first movement of his second symphony (the re-orchestrated
> Totenfeier) that there are sections where one clarinetist will
> be playing, say, Bb while another is to be playing C. In the
> specific section I'm thinking about, the third clarinetist is
> playing C clarinet in concert C minor (which would technically
> be easier on Bb clarinet...but I don't want to argue two flats)
> with the flutes...but when the bassoon takes over the melody,
> it's doubled by the first clarinetist, who is playing on Bb.
That's actually a rather amazing passage, one that I'd never noticed particularly before. Mahler apparently wanted the C clarinet for only the one bar - the 18th of Rehearsal #21 (with a pickup at the end of the previous measure). And to make this possible, Mahler had to drop the 3rd clarinet out after rehearsal #20 (it's in Bb before this), while the other two continue on Bb, to provide a rest long enough to switch instruments, bringing it back on C clarinet in a loud tutti passage a few measures later where it can't possibly make any difference what clarinet is being played. Then, in that 18th bar, the C (3rd) clarinet actually is unison with 1st bassoon and an octave below flutes 1 and 2 and oboe 1. Then, in the next bar, the final two notes of the melody are played by the same instruments except that the Bb clarinets take over (in octaves) and English horn and French horn are added. The obvious color change has, of course, much more to do with the 1st clarinet's suddenly joining in the flute's octave and the English and French horns adding their timbres than it has to do with the C clarinet. Probably no one, even listening deliberately for it, would hear the change from C to Bb clarinets (except, maybe?, Mahler himself). It's really a little bizarre when you look at it.
Lots of musicians have, usually lovingly, described Mahler's music as "neurotic." Maybe this is one passage that could help make the case?
Karl
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Author: marshall
Date: 2009-05-14 00:21
Well...we all know his superstitions started to drive him crazy near the end :p
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Author: Adam W
Date: 2009-05-14 19:51
Just to throw something in...
One of my favorite new concerto's, "Ninian" by James MacMillan, is for A Clarinet. It was written in 1996, and first published in 2005.
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Author: oliver sudden
Date: 2009-05-15 10:09
I would ask Harvey why he wrote the part for A clarinet but he has a condition at the moment that prevents him from flying so he will not be there.
I'll ask him, then - we're playing it in Huddersfield in November. ![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif)
Some other composers writing for A:
Liza Lim - Inguz (duo with cello, very lovely it is too, has low E and a couple of multiphonics)
Liza Lim - The Heart's Ear (with flute and string quartet, has low E a couple of times I think)
Rebecca Saunders - Stirrings Still (a big stretch of pure dyad multiphonics - they work just that little bit better on A)
Chris Dench - ruins within (solo piece so I suppose you could play it on Bb - but again he uses some nice dyad multiphonics as well as top D in a couple of spots which pops out just that little bit more easily... and to me playing it on Bb would just feel wrong, it needs that extra little touch of marble in the sound)
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2009-05-15 12:33
As an amateur composer, I chat with amateur, student and professional composers on the Sibelius website where I self-publish. The clarinet in A certainly is not dead within that group! I get a lot of questions about clarinets.
The questions mainly come from musicians who don't play wind instruments, who find the whole concept of transposing instruments confusing. (Most of the questions also underestimate what even amateur and student clarinet players can do, btw -- a lot of the questioners assume that even the lower reaches of altissimo are rare and exotic notes that make us quake with terror. Where do people get these ideas?) In writing my own music, I try to provide alternate parts, so that the clarinet player can chose whether to use clarinet in A or Bb, unless I've written for the lower range of clarinet in A. Preparing alternate parts is no trouble at all with modern composing software.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: eefer ★2017
Date: 2009-05-15 17:04
The reasons to use an A clarinet over a Bb clarinet would be because of ease of faciltiy, and the science of clarinet design. I think the reason you don't see as much use now is because the composer lacks understanding of the clarinet family of instruments, and because many of them are too lazy to go to the extra work of transposing out parts, since all that is required is a little software knowledge.
Nancy Buckman
AACC Symphony Orchestra
Opera AACC
Early Music Society of Northern MD
(and a lot of other ensembles, too)
nebuckman@gmail.com
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