 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2007-06-23 13:21
I was playing at a Concert recently the Vaughn –Williams cantata “Dona Nobis Pacem”. One of the violins (with good musical credentials and taste) came up to me and said in a conspiratorial tone;
“They don’t understand Vaughn-Williams like the English do”
I think she was talking about the rest of the ensemble. She is English born as am I and we were both playing with an Australian ensemble. As the choir was singing a quarter tone flat the idea of subtle English nuisances, that only she and I were aware of seemed a bit of a stretch to me.
Is there some underlying truth is this though?
Do the Germans have a deeper understanding of Brahms? Should only Karl and Sabine play the Sonatas.
Do the Austrians play Mozart better? Does Alfred Printz’s
Mozart surpass Marcellus.
Can only the Americans truly understand Copeland?
Any thoughts,
Regards, Chris
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Author: Kevin
Date: 2007-06-23 13:55
I was part of the choir in a performance of the Dona Nobis Pacem just a few months ago in Boston, Mass. One of the great musical experiences of my life so far.
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Author: jane84
Date: 2007-06-23 14:00
Yep, true.
Regarding Brahms, you can't play the sonatas properly until you've been divorced twice and have at least five children.
You might believe yourself safe, but one day the music police will find you!
(I truly pity the musicians from Lichtenstein, Andorra and San Marino)
-jane
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2007-06-23 14:29
Jane84,
Too funny.
Now you have me very worried about a transcription I did of some J.S. Bach things to do with organ and sax/clarinet. I'm sure I can not perform them properly since I have too few children.
HRL
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2007-06-23 14:42
Might be something to it. Having played Czech music (Dvorak, Smetana) under Kubelik and Behlolovek, and Hungarian music (Bartok, Kodaly) with Dorati, I can say that they brought something to these repertoires that other conductors have not been able to match. Elgar with Marriner, too. Also Tchaikowsky and Shostakovich with Rostropovich.
I guess it is nurture, not nature; these musicians having been raised with this music like mothers' milk just seem to have a deeper emotional commitment with it, which makes for very exciting and moving performances!
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Author: musiciandave
Date: 2007-06-23 14:57
"Can only the Americans truly understand Copland"
----------------------------------------
In some recordings and competitions that I have heard it played, the answer is yes....... Even more so for Gershwin
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Author: vin
Date: 2007-06-23 15:32
The new oboist of the NY Phil certainly dispells this. He is amazing at every style I have heard him play. Whenever anyone asks him how he, growing up in China, acquired such a feeling for musical style, he says "you know, we do have cd players in China."
I think the key is prolonged exposure (and really active listening) to great musicians who excel in that particular style, whether in person or on cd. I think that we should look at those who "get it" to prove/disprove this, not those who don't. I've heard plenty of awful Copland/Gershwin from people who don't understand the spirit of the music, but not everyone who can play this music well is American. Perhaps for someone like Rostropovich, interpreting Russian music came very naturally. I think a talented musician who is willing to listen for elements of style can certainly learn to interpret a particular style, so long as one is listening very closely for these elements of style. A knowledge of Hungarian folk music and speech certainly helps in Bartok but I've heard excellent performances of the Contrasts from non-Hungarians. No one is more respected in Mozart and Schubert than Mitsuko Uchida. There is no doubt that some people have a certain affinity for certain composers or styles, but the assertion that a particular musical style cannot be mastered by hard-working, eager-to-learn musician from another part of the world is false.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-06-23 16:22
No wonder I'm having a problem playing Satie.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-06-23 16:30
BobD wrote:
> No wonder I'm having a problem playing Satie.
What, no strange sense of humour?
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-06-23 17:07
I think there is some truth to this. For example, Rock is American and there have never been any good Rock bands from accross the pond, right?
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2007-06-23 17:18
If you have to get inside the head of the composer I'm gonna be steering clear of Mahler from now on ;-)
*
But I did have a conversation here a while back about how Elgar in particular is poorly understood stateside... something to do with graduation ceremonies, I believe.
*
Elgar, Vaughan-Williams and Holst are quintessentially Brits (yes, even Herr Holst ;-) ). But see no reason why that stops any other nationality from performing their music properly. I mean, are we to deprive the Brits of Gershwin, Bernstein etc.?
*
Your grasp of irony is superb, skygardener...
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2007-06-23 17:41
Hi,
The comment "you know, we do have cd players in China" is not too far off the mark. What's being talked about is listening and being able to imitate (or better yet, mimic) specific styles on command.
The Humble Section: I happen to be able to do this pretty well and thus am comfortable with a church service, show gig, a rock or jazz job, or a wind ensemble or society gig. It's not often I am out of my element since once I hear something, that's pretty much it (I can play Vaughn Williams BTW).
The Antithesis Section: There is a terrific jazz musician (woodwinds primarily) in town but when you hear him play something other than that type of gig, it all sounds like Cherokee or Giant Steps. He really has a gift, plays all instruments well including keyboards/mallets, has blinding technique, and can improvise amazingly. But he just has that one style.
This is all about ears! And having a good musical memory.
HRL
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Author: jane84
Date: 2007-06-23 17:49
Hank:
Remember he had two wives...
No, really, if I should answer seriously I think it may have something to do with national characteristics too: American music, fex., is often [taking a deep breath and stepping into the minefield] confident and extrovert, say, and most americans seem to have those characteristics too (or maybe the other way around...) - spanish music is often proud and ....okay, this is hard to describe, but you get the point: some sort of national spirit, like. At least socially, between people, such a thing exists.
So: can that be copied by an "outsider"? Sure. But merely copying isn't really the point - can it be understood? Can an american understand how an italian thinks? A german follow the mind of a chinese? I don't know.
On the other hand: Does it matter? Must it be played exactly the same way - what about input from other places/countries/customs/whatever? Aren't people anyway more than just citizens of their country? If some composer was manic-depressive, say, could his/her works only be played by other people with the disease? When does the music leave the composer and enter the world and other peoples' interpretations?
Conclusion: It's either a very old discussion or it sort of bothers on the absurd.
(someone once told me that music is retorics; this was a very musical post:)
-jane
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2007-06-23 18:10
Jane,
I find your assertions interesting and there could be some validity to your thoughts on national influences. There was the old East Coast and west Coast jazz debate in the 50s and 60s that was a similar attempt to define musical styles by locale.
HRL
PS I've had two wives but not at the same time.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2007-06-23 18:29
I have yet to hear a convincing, heartfelt performance of the Dances of Galanta from a non-Hungarian orchestra (and solo clarinetist) ...GBK
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Author: Bubalooy
Date: 2007-06-23 20:56
And then of course we all know that you must be anti semitic to perform or even like the music of Wager right? And what about musicians that McCarthy didn't approve of, were they incapable of playing American music? Perhaps Rostopovich was only really good with Shostokovich when conducted the pieces that were questionable in the eyes of the USSR. Give me a break.
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Author: donald
Date: 2007-06-23 21:33
isn't it obvious?
she has the hots for you
this "only the english" stuff is really just a way procure some heightened level of intimacy. She wants to share the experience of being an outsider with you.
Unfortunately her clever ruse has made her look stupid.
donald
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-06-23 22:04
"For example, Rock is American and there have never been any good Rock bands from accross the pond, right?"
Yeah, why bother with 2nd rate British Rock acts like Queen, Led Zep, Judas Priest, Hawkwind, Black Sabbath, etc. when there's real substance in bands that invented Rock such as bon jovi, guns'n'roses, extreme, skid row, aerosmith, etc.?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-06-24 03:20
In a serious light- I would say that with winds especially, there is a special way each language trains the muscles of the mouth. I think that this actually has an effect on the way the sound is produced on wind instruments.
Post Edited (2007-06-24 10:54)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-06-24 10:04
"the idea of subtle English nuisances, that only she and I were aware"
I went back to try to determine what the strange humour reference might be alluding to and wonder if Phurster meant "nuances". If so then it's possible he doesn't recognize a "come on" either. " No more soup for you", Phursty.
Bob Draznik
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-06-24 10:31
.....or maybe RALPH means something else to the Aussies .....
Bob Draznik
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2007-06-24 10:57
I love the oboist's comment,
>"you know, we do have cd players in China."
The idea of an ethnic group "owning" a particular type of music probably does have some validity during the earliest days of that music, when almost nobody has heard any of it outside of the isolated group that's inventing it--but even that generalization probably won't work today, when recordings and videos flash around the globe as fast as people can swap them via computer. Besides, radio and TV broadcasts made Ralph Vaughan Williams accessible worldwide, decades before digital.
>>I think she was talking about the rest of the ensemble. She is English born as am I and we were both playing with an Australian ensemble. As the choir was singing a quarter tone flat the idea of subtle English nuisances, that only she and I were aware of seemed a bit of a stretch to me.
>>
>>Is there some underlying truth is this though?>>
Well, there may be some truth to the notion of underlying English nuisances! ;-)
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2007-06-24 11:23
I guess the art with any musical form is to 'get' the form. The notes are only signposts. I guess if you've got some Englishness to start with it's less far to travel to 'get' Vaughan Williams. Same with any other composer.
But what about something like Kodaly's 'Pange Lingua'? Here's an Eastern European composer who travelled to the States and 'discovered' the blue note...
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Author: Ed Granger
Date: 2007-06-25 15:58
Lelia Loban wrote:
> People who think African American hip-hoppers invented rap
> greatly amuse opera fans who recognize a recitativo when we
> hear one....
>
Actually, it was rappers who invented hip-hop rather than the other way 'round.
Ed
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2007-06-25 15:59
. . . and pop music fan have log enjoyed rap music, even "johnnie come lately" stuff from the 1950's, such as:
"Gather 'round cats and I'll tell you the story,
about how to become an All American boy.
You get you a guitar and put in in tune,
and you'll be a rockin' and a . . . rollin' soon.
etc. etc."
Eu
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Author: ginny
Date: 2007-06-25 16:29
I consider that anyone raised and trained in the European Classical tradition can play English music, but she does have a point perhaps. I haven't heard enough British recordings versus non-British to have a specific opinion. However...
I have seldom heard a bluegrass band from California really sound like trad bluegrass. There are some fine bands from Japan doing bluegrass as well, but there are definite lacks and it is clear the style is merely copied. I generally tell a player born playing a Balkan style against one who was not, again there are a few incredibly dedicated people who can manage this. Ethnic dancers, hard as they try to copy a foriegn style with few exceptions have "body accents."
To me playing in the style of another nationality can be done, but would seem likely to take a lot more study and dedication than most would be able to. However I have no problem with people from California or Japan playing bluegrass, or Balkan music, or British band music for that matter. They may have an "accent" when they do this.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-06-25 16:49
doesn't this question of 'accents' raise the question of Americans playing Mozart?
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Author: ginny
Date: 2007-06-25 21:33
I would find it plausible that a person raised musically in Vienna might well have a different accent when playing, particularly at the lower levels of performers. However, I do not know this from personal experience with Mozart. I do know that some pros are very meticulous in their study of period playing to get the "accent" right. My husband and I are able to tell when a British orchestra comes on the radio with fair accuracy in point of fact. Locally to me I can usually tell the Russian players for example by their interpertations.
I am very familar with bluegrass and Balkan music and able to therefore tell about these styles and find it plausible that a British lady could feel that way having heard the difference in particular.
I am not saying people all over the world should not play Mozart, or bluegrass or Balkan music... only that without careful study they will have an accent in bluegrass or Balkan and probably with classical styles as well. I find the accents charming and enjoy California style bluegrass and local Balkan bands.
Post Edited (2007-06-25 21:35)
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2007-06-26 00:04
You are all missing one big point, or pernt....
See, in the colonies, he is Ralph, as in Art Carney's sanitation worker calling out "Hey, Ralphie boy" to Gleeson.
But cognoscenti (they of the raised pinkie*) know that Ralph is really Rayff, as in what dive bombers do to an enemy airfield.
So once again we are two nations divided by a common language.
* for fun, look up, google, ask Jeeves, or whomever.edu why people of social standing...and that Regency man of New Yorker Magazine fame, extend the pinky.....and no licking afterwards.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-06-26 11:45
Although Raif or Rafe (or just call him Ralph - that's how it's spelt!) may be regarded as the quintessetial English composer, his double-barreled surname 'Vaughan-Williams' is Irish-Welsh (ie. NOT English) - and along with Gustav Holst (of another great Anglo-Saxon name!), they were both important figures in bringing Ye Olde Englishe Folke Songe to the concert halls.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-06-26 16:19
Indeed he was - 'Linconshire Posy' has the drunken old yokel down the pub dictating a song, all out of time as well.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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