 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Mary Jo
Date: 2007-03-10 09:35
I just heard Clinton's speech at "Emily's List" honoring the woman Speaker of the House. In this speech, Clinton talked about equal rights for women and mentioned how in the 70's, about 5 percent of orchestra members were women. Later, the percentage rose to 25 percent.
This higher percentage, she said, was because auditions were performed behind a curtain, so the evaluators wouldn't know the sex of a player before deciding which contestant was the best player.
Orchestra members, is this true? I'm just wondering because I'm thinking about all my voting options next time here in the US very carefully. This would be one more piece of a puzzle put in place in a world full of puzzle pieces that don't seem to fit.
Mary Jo
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2007-03-10 15:08
Don't know if the stats are right but that sounds about right. There are many women in orchestras today.
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Author: larryb
Date: 2007-03-10 19:24
I don't understand the question: is it true that there are now more women in orchestra because of identity/gender neutral audtions; or is it true that Hilary actually made an intelligent comment about modern orchestral audition practice?
Which would be the piece of the puzzle you are seeking?
Here's another piece: her husband is a famous single reed player.
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Author: awm34
Date: 2007-03-10 21:18
I just made an unscientific gender count of the Toledo Symphony:
41 males
34 females
2 undetermined
Alan Messer
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2007-03-11 01:20
But, Hillary had nothin' to do with the (gentle) rise in women orchestral employees!
Bob Phillips
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2007-03-11 14:15
Of course she did, Bob! Just like that toady Algore invented the Internet! ![[happy]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley12.gif)
Seriously, putting the player behind a screen is a good practice regardless of the gender (or identity) of the players and the (supposed) biases of the people making the decisions. In this way, the prospective player is judged solely on his or her sound and skill, rather than who the auditioner may be.
Leave it to Hillary to turn this into a gender issue. Of course, given the makeup of the audience and their political leanings, it isn't surprising.
Jeff
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Author: awm34
Date: 2007-03-11 18:22
Eugene: They were both first violins with first names of Chris and Dana.
Alan
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Author: vin
Date: 2007-03-11 18:28
JJA;brecht-
You have obviously never talked to older female orchestral musicians from the 60s who were denied spots because they were women. Of course it's a gender issue.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-03-11 18:43
> Of course it's a gender issue.
Or at least a gender issue too. It doesn't stop there. Racist issues aren't all that rare either. ![[frown]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie2.gif)
--
Ben
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Author: Mary Jo
Date: 2007-03-12 06:30
Thanks to all who replied to my question and comments. It seems that old adage is true: the more things change, the more they stay the same.
It might be too, that more men try out and so get more positions in orchestras.
It is a complicated issue, no doubt similar in some way to my own experiences as a female officer in the Air Force in the 1980s.
The answers are likely in future rhetoric this election year.
I apologize for delving into politics, but it seemed in this case to include musicians.
Mary Jo
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2007-03-12 13:47
I have never tried out behind a curtain. In every case the judge had my name on my tryout page. I'm also curious as to where Mrs. Clinton got her information. I would never vote for a candidate simply because he/she spouted statistics in a seemingly knowledgeable fashion.
The number of women in all kinds of jobs is rising for several reasons:
1. There are more women in the work force now than ever before.
2. Women are rapidly becoming the majority of the population of the working aged public in the USA.
3. Equal opportunity employment has forced employers not to discriminate.
Etc.
Last time I checked the former President and Mrs. Clinton had nothing to do with any of those things.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-03-12 14:06
Brenda Siewert wrote:
>
Please. The thread has nothing to do with the Clintons per se, only about what was said during a speech, and from context here no claims were made by the speaker as to her involvement.
This thread has to do with the (apparent) rise in number of women in orchestras and the possible reasons. Please leave it at that!
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2007-03-12 15:32
the thread began,
"Orchestra members, is this true? I'm just wondering because I'm thinking about all my voting options next time here in the US very carefully. This would be one more piece of a puzzle put in place in a world full of puzzle pieces that don't seem to fit."
To me, that is the gist of this thread. It was political to begin with and I was surprised it was allowed. If I'm reading the above paragraph correctly if Hillary Clinton is correct on this, Mary Jo is going to base her voting in the US on that statement.
If the goal of this thread is merely statistics, please delete the reference to Hillary Clinton because she is an announced candidate for president.
Post Edited (2007-03-12 15:36)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-03-12 16:00
Brenda Siewert wrote:
> the thread began,
Not with what you quoted, but with
"I just heard Clinton's speech at "Emily's List" honoring the woman Speaker of the House. In this speech, Clinton talked about equal rights for women and mentioned how in the 70's, about 5 percent of orchestra members were women. Later, the percentage rose to 25 percent.
This higher percentage, she said, was because auditions were performed behind a curtain, so the evaluators wouldn't know the sex of a player before deciding which contestant was the best player."
It ENDED with what you wrote. The writer said she may base her voting decisions on such information. It said NOTHING pro or con any particular member running for office.
Hilary Clinton HAPPENED to make the speech. It could have been anyone. It was (in the context of this BBoard) apolitical.
If you wish to inject US politics in this particular thread - don't. There's no reason for it. It is a continuation of the gender discrimination threads.
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Author: Mary Jo
Date: 2007-03-12 19:39
Hmmm.... I said reference politics:
"Orchestra members, is this true? I'm just wondering because I'm thinking about all my voting options next time here in the US very carefully. This would be one more piece of a puzzle put in place in a world full of puzzle pieces that don't seem to fit."
That isn't exactly endorsing anyone, rather saying I'm trying to gather information and that as a woman, I'm sensitive to women's issues.
In retrospect, I apologize for making that original statement, which has come to light as being inappropriate for this forum.
I believe, however, it is germane to this forum to comment on why women don't seem to be tooting their horns, banging their drums, and twanging their basses in professional musical organizations in numbers porportionate to general percentages of women in the population.
Again, sorry to have offended anyone.
Mary Jo
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Author: ginny
Date: 2007-03-12 21:34
http://www.princeton.edu/pr/pwb/97/0512/0512-orchestra.html
"Blind" auditions for symphony orchestras have contributed to a substantial increase in the number of women who have secured these positions, according to Cecilia Rouse, assistant professor of economics and public affairs....
She used personnel records and rosters from several symphony orches-tras to track the hiring of women musicians as orchestras adopted the practice of blind auditions during the 1970s and 1980s....
"The switch to blind auditions can explain between 30 percent and 55 percent of the increase in the propor-tion female among new hires and between 25 percent and 46 percent of the increase in the percentage female in the orchestras from 1970 to 1996," according to the study, which was based on a final analysis sample of 14,133 individuals and 592 audition segments.
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Author: ginny
Date: 2007-03-12 21:36
A google search will let you find statiscal evidence of this, rather than relying on the personal experience of a handful of women who might reply here.
I go back to the era, but not on clarinet. The prejudice against women was incredible, I recall being told women could not be TV newscasters as no one would believe a story if a woman was the speaker. Things are much better all though there are still some old guys with the same views, even here.
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Author: ginny
Date: 2007-03-12 21:38
The turnover rate for orchestra jobs is very slow, one reason the number of women continues to be somewhat under represented.
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Author: Bubalooy
Date: 2007-03-12 21:59
sorry to bring up a language issue but gender has to do with language, for example in German der die and das denote language. The sex of a player may be an issue in whether he or she gets a job (especially in Vienna it seems) not the gender.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-03-12 22:09
Bubalooy wrote:
> sorry to bring up a language issue but gender has to do with
> language,
There's another meaning, at least in American English:
2 a: sex <the feminine gender> b: the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex
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Author: allencole
Date: 2007-03-13 17:42
I'd like a clarification on the degree of blindness in the 'blind' auditions. Do the audition judges know your name at the time that they're listening and judging?
This subject was also brought up in a book called "Lost Rights" written by a columnist at the Wall Street Journal whose name now escapes me. He made a claim along the lines that the EEOC had some clashes with professional symphony orchestras because the custom of blind auditions was an impediment to affirmative action.
Allen Cole
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Author: vin
Date: 2007-03-14 17:01
In all professional clarinet auditions that I have been involved with (competing myself or on the panel), when the screen is up, candidates are only identified by number or letter to committee members.
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