 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Kim
Date: 2002-03-03 19:45
Hello all.
I thought that I'd make an attempt to have an honest (therefore politically incorrect) discussion about something that I've wondered about for quite a while.
First, an observation. In my experience, male clarinetists seem to be outnumbered by female clarinetists by a decent percentage, whether we're talking about grade school or music conservatories. For whatever reason, more females seem to choose the instrument than males.
Next observation, which I have a more factual basis for is as follows. Most people holding jobs in full time professional orchestras are male. I have also observed over the last few years that most people that have been getting the good jobs (over the last 5-10 years) have also been male. (At this point, I have to inform you that I am NOT a man-hating lunatic. Quite the opposite is true, actually. This is just something that I've honestly wondered about for quite a while.)
So here's my question. Why? (By the way, I'm primarily talking about US orchestras.)
Though I've certainly run into a few sexist types in my career, I think that they are few and far between, and that those types really don't exert much influence in today's society, especially since auditions have been held behind screens, etc.
Incidentally, this doesn't really seem to be true in the regional/part-time orchestras.
Now please don't bother writing to tell me that there is a woman in this orchestra or that...I'm well aware of who's out there, the exceptions to the rule, etc. I'm just curious about people's theories of why, generally, the guys are still in the majority of those getting the good jobs, when they start off in the minority.
I have a few theories of my own that I'll be glad to offer up once this discussion gets underway, but by and large, I really don't know why, which is why I pose the question to you.
Let's have a civilized, honest discussion about a topic that most people won't touch with a 10 foot pole. It'll be fun.
-Kim
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Author: Suzanne
Date: 2002-03-03 20:01
Has anyone actually gotten the numbers by looking at, say www.orchestralclarinetist.com and counting up the M/F personnel ratio on their orchestra list... just curious. What is the ratio of people actually auditioning for these jobs? Perhaps the women are the ones at home taking care of the kids? (I say that with all due respect--if I had children, I would give up my own career to care for them.)
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Author: William
Date: 2002-03-03 20:21
In the recording industry as well, it seems that most of the CDs are put out be male clarinetists. Just an observation to add fuel to the fire. Good Clarineting!!! (all)
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Author: Michael McC.
Date: 2002-03-03 21:07
For a long time, I was the only male clarinetist in my middle/high school band. However, in the orchestra I play in, there are 3 males and 3 females in the section, and in our all-state bands, to my observation there are more females than males.
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Author: diz
Date: 2002-03-03 21:25
Some Australian Statistics on full time wind players male/female ratio
Melbourne Symphony
Woodwinds
M - 11
F - 5
Sydney Symphony
M - 10
F - 5
Adelaide Symphony
M - 8
F - 4
West Australian Symphony
M - 7
F - 6
Queensland Orchestra
M - 7
F - 8
Tasmanian Symphony
M - 5
F - 3
There you go - I didn't bother with the three remaining professional orchestras (opera and ballet in Sydney and Melbourne and the Australian Chamber Orchestra).
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Author: Kim
Date: 2002-03-03 22:51
A few years ago I counted up the M/F ratio in ICSOM orchestras (ICSOM is basically an association of fulltime orchestras with large budgets). The percentages came out something in the ballpark of 22% female, 78% male. When I looked at principals, the percentage of women were even lower, at around 18%. (There were a couple of names that I wasn't sure whether they were male or female, which I had to guess about, but I think that the ballpark of 20% was accurate at least a few years ago when I counted it up.)
Suzannne, I've also tossed around the possibility of the raising kids thing, but more and more (sadly) stay-at-home moms are becoming a rare breed in our society. I think the trend has been leaning more and more towards both spouses working. (We even have a stay-at-home dad in our neighborhood!) While I would tend to believe that the stay-at-home mom thing might account for the percentages not exactly mirroring the M/F ratio in schools, I have a hard time believing that it explains the entire phenomenon.
I also have found that most female musicians that I've encountered in the regional orchestras tend to not have kids at all. (I personally think that students/pets fulfill the parenting urge for many of these gals.)
Looks like Australia is a bit more progressive than the US! Diz, are your ratios for full time woodwind players? If so, I'm sure that the flutists are padding the female #'s at least a little. If brass are included (which it doesn't look like), then I'm truely impressed.
Anyway, any other theories?
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Author: GBK
Date: 2002-03-03 23:07
I'm sure we are all aware of the outright gender discrimination policies of the Vienna Philharmonic and the Munich Philharmonic.
One cite to read:
http://www.buzzarte.org/conant.html
and the Vienna Philharmonic gender watch:
http://www.buzzarte.org/vpowatch/
The lack of women in principal or supporting roles in the orchestra is quite puzzling, considering when beginning students (at least in my experience) start to learn the clarinet, the ratio of females far outweighs the number of male students.
Also, through high school, these numbers still tilt toward more females playing clarinet than males...GBK
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-03-03 23:09
Kim wrote:
> Looks like Australia is a bit more progressive than the US!
Kim,
While the M/F ratio is interesting, wouldn't it be more prudent to explore the reasons and rationale rather than jump to conclusions or show your underlying biases? As it is, you're doing the moral equivalent of shouting "Guily! Guilty! Guilty!" before the trial.
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Author: Kim
Date: 2002-03-03 23:20
OK, perhaps 'progressive' was the wrong choice of a word. What was meant by the use of that word was something more like, 'How nice that Australia seems to be unlike places such as Vienna'.
And I don't know what you're referring to, Mark. (What underlying biases?) I don't think that I've jumped to ANY conclusions. I'm not sure why you're so overly defensive about this topic. Perhaps you could explain yourself a little more. And I really WANT to explore the reasons, as you've suggested.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-03-03 23:33
Kim wrote:
>
> OK, perhaps 'progressive' was the wrong choice of a
> word.
That's the kind of biases I'm talking about. When exploring topics such as this which, as you noted, are "loaded", one must be careful to keep the language factual and neutral. Otherwise people will read what they think are your biases into your choice of words.
The reason for Vienna's preponderance of males in the orchestra is easy to discern. The scarcity of female woodwind players in those places that supposed to have fair audions may be a lot harder to fathom.
You'll need to start finding outthe percentage of females who actually audition for the places in the woodwind section of an orchestra, and then see if there's some difference between the percentages chosen between male & female.
It's an interesting subject and quite difficult to quantify. I have a link to Monica Buzzarte's web pages on the main page of Sneezy. Monica's been working on this problem for quite a long time.
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Author: Kim
Date: 2002-03-04 00:08
It seems that Monica has been working on problems of actual gender discrimination (VPO/Munich). I would have a hard time believing that the same type of thing is a widespread problem in the US. (If it is, it must be well hidden).
I'm not sure how one would go about obtaining M/F ratios of those taking auditions. Perhaps less women show up in the first place. If we were to assume that that's the case, my question is still 'why'?
I was hoping to have a discussion on this board that was peppered with opinions, theories, etc. Political correctness (the 'watch what you say' type of thinking) drives me absolutely nuts, because it shuts down honest discussion, prevents us from understanding problems/differences between one another, and so on. (Oops, another opinion!) I appreciate that you're trying to keep things civil and respectful on this board, Mark, but lets do that while keeping the lines of communication open.
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Author: diz
Date: 2002-03-04 00:37
My statistics are based on ACTUAL full time players in our Australian orchestras, this information is available to all - they also have interesting web sites and busy schedules (especially in Sydney and Melbourne):
www.sso.com.au | Sydney
www.mso.com.au | Melbourne
www.aso.com.au | Adelaide
www.tso.com.au | Tasmania
www.qso.com.au | Queensland
www.waso.com.au | Perth
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-03-04 01:52
Monica,
Something as loaded as this deserves a lot more than just "opinions". It deserves well-thought-out discourse. It may or may not be that there's prejudices here in the US for orchestral slots. I don't know. I do know that before I'd go out on a limb I'd be checking around to see what supports the thoughts I have.
If you find out that there are a large number of women taking courses in clarinet for performance, but later find that the number taking auditions is disproportionately larger or smaller - that's interesting, and perhaps we could discuss with those who have or haven't taken auditions their reasoning. We might be able to find out whether or not the teachers are helping or other underlying causes. But to just wonder out loud is pointless since we we have no benchmark to judge any directions.
But, as to being "PC" - that's not why I'm trying to direct the thread. Anythime someone thinks there is discrimination in any direction it needs to be looked at objectively first to see it it really meets any sort of criteria. Sometime we're surprised at the results, and that is just as educational and can lead to a lot more thought into the subject.
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Author: Kim
Date: 2002-03-04 02:41
OK, but what's your opinion as to why, Mark? Don't you have an opinion about this topic? That's all I'm asking for.
I agree that this topic deserves more extensive study. All I want to do is talk about it. Discussing a topic which can stimulate thought/awareness is, in my opinion, very valuable.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-03-04 02:51
Kim,
My opinion as to why has no merit in a subject where empirical data isn't that hard to get. Since I have no numbers to look at, I have no opinion to offer. You need some facts before you offer an opinion on an empirical subject - just saying that there's less men than women in professional orchestras is:
a) probably true, though I don't know it for a fact
b) I don't know the percentages of women auditioning
c) I don't know the percentages of women going to school to become performers
Withoput any of the above knowledge my opinion is less than worthless ... I'm just adding noise. Opinons on mouthpieces, clarinets, reeds, etc. are in general subjective and perhaps my opinion counts then - my opinion on any of the above depends on my knowledge of the facts - and I don't have any.
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Author: diz
Date: 2002-03-04 03:46
Mark - why not just end this thread - you're obviously not happy about it?
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Author: Sally Gardens
Date: 2002-03-04 04:02
I don't understand why it's controversial to refer to a more equitable representation of women in orchestras as "progressive." Then again, I thought the sexism battle was won once and for all in the 1970s, but alas, the empirical data observed over the years since then has demonstrated otherwise. :-( Hell, there are even people out there (lunatic fringe, to be sure) who have web sites advocating rescinding the 19th amendment to the U.S. Constitution (the one recognizing women's right to vote), so I guess there will always be people who don't see women's advancement as "progress." Bummer.
On the subject of opinions, as long as it's stated as an opinion and not an assertion of fact, I see nothing wrong with offering an opinion on a matter. You don't have to have all the facts in to make an educated guess, or have a point of view on the matter. It's only if you try to assert that your point of view should be binding on all that it becomes problematic.
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Author: diz
Date: 2002-03-04 04:53
Good on you sally - life's far too short to be overly dogmatic
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Author: Sally Gardens
Date: 2002-03-04 04:58
Of course we have to be careful not to be too dogmatic about not being dogmatic... :-D
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Author: chuck
Date: 2002-03-04 05:11
With apologies to the ladies first. This question is somewhat like "why are there more male chefs than female chefs?" or "why are airline pilots more likely to be male than female?" When we know that there are in fact qualified female applicants to hire. I believe that this is somewhat rushing the gains cited over the past thirty some years. We are in fact in transition in many instances. Let's assume that for many years, the ladies didn't even need to apply (no matter the field) because it was a man's world. Many of the hiree's thirty years ago are enjoying tenure yet. But, increasingly, as the barriers fall, a more equitable distribution, based on talent, is coming to be realized. It doesn't happen overnight . . . and it doesn't happen at the same rate everywhere. I am in San Diego and the principal clarinetists of the Symphony and the Opera orchestras are both female. Does this make us "progressive"? Your call, but I don't think so. I'll go with "equitable". The main problem with a discussion of this nature is emotion--which I am certain that Mark recognizes--and the need for tempered presentation can too easily be lost in what I suspect will become flag-waving. With compliments to Cheryl Renk and Terri Tunnicliffe, Chuck
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2002-03-04 08:36
There were no women in the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra at any time while the great maestro Von Karajan was the conductor on any instrument at all. Obviously sexist!
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-03-04 10:48
chuck wrote:
>
> Does this make us "progressive"?
> Your call, but I don't think so. I'll go with "equitable". The
> main problem with a discussion of this nature is emotion--which
> I am certain that Mark recognizes--and the need for tempered
> presentation can too easily be lost in what I suspect will
> become flag-waving.
Exactly.
Diz - I don't end threads I don't like. I do encourage people to be very thoughtful about posting in these kinds of threads.
Kim - offering "educated guesses" is fine - if you can describe where you're coming from and why they're educated. Throwing uneducated opinions about is counter-productive.
I'd like to argue and discuss from the facts. Perhaps someone knows the facts (diz has given us some from Oz) - will someone else actually do the work and list how many women are playing in the US? Perhaps someone else could get the percentages of women who complete a performance degree - there's enough people here to split the work - and then we all could throw out educated guesses rather than spitting in the wind.
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Author: graham
Date: 2002-03-04 11:51
At the risk of saying something without having done the several hours of required research, I would just say that i have been interested (silently) for some while as to why the US has so low a representation of female clarinetists. This has not been (such) an issue in the UK for at least a couple of decades. Beyond the obvious soloist names (King, Johnson, Hilton) there have been several leading orchestral players (Prudence Whittaker, Angela Malsbury etc.). I guess if i did the research there would still be a majority of males, but the impression is that there is no actual glass ceiling in the UK. Yet in the many times of looking at entries on this board I have not spotted any names of woman clarinetists from the US (and, no, I have not read every thread of course). There certainly seems to be something the matter in the US, and I do not think that way of putting it is too "emotional".
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Author: jez
Date: 2002-03-04 13:04
I've counted up the clarinettists in British orchestras that I can find listed and, sadly it seems the situation here is even worse than in U.S. with a ratio of about 10 to 1. in full-time posts.
The situation now, though is better than it used to be. I bet that if you did the same count 30 or 40 years ago there would have been virtually no female clarinet players in full time jobs. Indeed in some of the major London orchestras there would have been no female members at all. We're gradually getting away from that sort of blatant sexism, but it seems to be happening slower with the clarinet than with some other instruments. A count of flute players would look much more balanced.
Considering the trend the other way in music colleges (same here) it's hard to avoid a charge of sexism in the people who are in a position to make these appointments (conductors, existing woodwind principals, orchestra management) but why the difference in different instruments? Is a female flautist more acceptable than a famale clarinettist?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-03-04 13:46
jez wrote:
> Considering the trend the other way in music colleges (same
> here) it's hard to avoid a charge of sexism in the people who
> are in a position to make these appointments (conductors,
> existing woodwind principals, orchestra management)
Since in general in the US appointments are made by a panel of judges, initially behind a screen, why would you make this statement? Conductors, principals, and management, have a say during the trial period.
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Author: jez
Date: 2002-03-04 14:08
I can only talk about the way things happen here in the U.K.
I'd say that most people appointed to jobs here don't even have to go through an audition. They are often invited straight to the 'trial' stage where conductors etc. make their choice.
In U.S. orchestras how many people would, normally get to the stage of doing a trial period?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-03-04 14:15
Generally in the US there are auditions for all openings. Very few will be selected for a second or third round; sometimes no one is selected and they start all over again. Only one person gets to have a trial period - at least that's all I've heard of. Direct appointments are few if any - I haven't heard of any in the last decade or longer, though it may have happened. Can anyone enlightem me on the last time there was a direct appointment into a professional orchestra in the US?
Sometimes selected people do not have to go through the initial "cattle call" auditions - they can skip to the 2nd or 3rd rounds. Whether or not this is fair is debateable.
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Author: Kim
Date: 2002-03-04 14:28
Well, one thing I've noticed with flutists in the US is that representation in orchestras here tends to be pretty well balanced (50/50 is pretty common). I'm not sure that this is equitable, though, since male flute players are a MUCH rarer breed than male clarinetists.
Chuck, you make some good points. I think it's unreasonable to expect orchestras to reflect very accurately the actual numbers of those entering the field/getting degrees precisely because of the tenure factor that you mentioned. What I'm puzzled about is what's happening today, in terms of who has been getting the jobs over the last 5-10 years.
Mark, I'm happy to count up the numbers in the ICSOM orchestras again and get current numbers/percentages (as opposed to the 2yr old info I gave earlier). Here are the listings from the 2000-2001 directory, which is the most current information available to me.
Alabama M-1, F-1
Atlanta M-3, F-1
Baltimore M-4, F-0
Boston M-4, F-0
Buffalo M-2, F-1
Charlotte M-3, F-0
Lyric M-1, F-2
Chicago M-4, F-0
Cincinnati M-4, F-0
Cleveland M-3, F-1
Colorado M-3, F-0
Colombus M-4, F-0
Dallas M-4, F-0
Detroit M-4, F-0
Fla. Orch. M-1, F-2
Fla. Phil. M-3, F-0
Grant Park M-1, F-2
Honolulu M-3, F-0
Houston M-4, F-0
IndianapolisM-3, F-0
JacksonvilleM-2, F-1
Kansas City M-2, F-0
Kennedy Ctr M-2, F-1
LA Phil M-2, F-2
Louisville M-3, F-0
Met Opera M-3, F-0 ???? only 3 clarinetists were listed
Milwaukee M-2, F-1
Minnesota M-4, F-0
Nashville M-1, F-2
National M-4, F-0
New Jersey M-2, F-0
NYC Ballet M-3, F-0
NYC Opera M-2, F-1
NY Phil M-4, F-0 (Only 3 listed, but it is currently 4-0)
N. Carolina M-2, F-0
Oregon M-1, F-1 (3rd, Yoshinori Nakao-is it a M or F name?)
PhiladelphiaM-4, F-0
Phoenix M-3, F-0
Pittsburgh M-4, F-0 (3 listed, but it is currently 4-0)
Rochester M-3, F-0
St. Louis M-3, F-2 (for FT/tenured players, it's 3-1)
St. Paul M-1, F-1
San Antonio M-3, F-0
San Diego M-2, F-1
San Fran
Ballet M-1, F-1
San Fran
Opera M-2, F-1
San Fran
Symphony M-4, F-0
Syracuse M-3, F-0
Utah M-4, F-0
Virginia M-2, F-1
Perhaps someone else can count up the numbers and do the percentages.
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Author: jez
Date: 2002-03-04 14:33
It's very different here. Auditions are almost always held, but applicants may be invited straight into a trial on the basis of current position or previous exprerience. It would be quite normal for 10 or more people to do trials so that is where the competition really occurs. All the aspects of playing, blending, tuning, fitting in both personally and musically come into the decision, rather than just who plays the most brilliant audition.
This seems fairer, but, returning to the original discussion, opens the possibility of gender-bias creeping in.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-03-04 14:41
Great 1st step, thanks.. Now, does anyone have any numbers for the m/f ratio of students that are graduating from the performance section of major music schools/conservatories?
Yoshinori Nakao is male.
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Author: Kim
Date: 2002-03-04 14:42
Mark wrote:
"Can anyone enlightem me on the last time there was a direct appointment into a professional orchestra in the US?"
Now this is a truely loaded question, as it's practically an invitation to drag some poor soul's name through the mud. Let's just say that I've seen it happen to an extent in the last five years. Private 'invitation only' auditions, appointing someone to one position that made finals in an audition for another position, of course the local auditons for larger jobs (or advertisements for jobs that read 'pending local auditions'). Appointments for one-year positions frequently still happen in orchestras of all sizes without holding auditions. Not quite as direct as in the UK, but it happens.
By the way, I don't think that these things that I mentioned are widespread enough to account for the discrepancy. Also, I know people of both genders that have benefitted from this type of thing.
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Author: Ginny
Date: 2002-03-04 14:47
Its pretty clear fewer women get the top positions in the English speaking countries UK, US and Austrialia. Why? We can blindly conjecture, but I doubt we'll be able to get data on it.
It sounds as if the percentabe of women in top positions in music are greater that of women making it to the top of the executive ladder, which if memory serves, are miniscule. High level work requires complete commitment and often achievers have 'support' people at home...historically wives. I would conjecture the same forces are at work, whatever they may be.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2002-03-04 14:57
Kim wrote:
>
> Mark wrote:
>
> "Can anyone enlightem me on the last time there was a direct
> appointment into a professional orchestra in the US?"
>
> Now this is a truely loaded question, as it's practically an
> invitation to drag some poor soul's name through the mud.
????? This would be public information if it's a direct appointment.
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Author: Kim
Date: 2002-03-04 15:10
Well, do you consider the scenarios that I listed 'direct appointments'?
I'm just not willing to give out information in a public forum that isn't going to represent any of my colleagues in a positive light. Perhaps it's already public information, (in some cases, maybe not terribly well-known public information), but that's one line that I'm not willing to cross.
Let's just get back the the origonal question of 'why'?
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Author: Ginny
Date: 2002-03-04 15:34
Basically we get back to nature/nuture debates. The jury is out. It is politically incorrect to look at nature in this area, although a few brave souls do study sex-linked differences beyond the basic obvious ones. Women for example (on average YMMV) have a thicker connection between brain hemispheres than men. If I recall right musicians also develop this area, at least those with very early training. This could indicate brain development being enviromentally driven to some degree and women having a musical edge. Or not, after they only test to the 95% confidence level typically and these are relatively small studies. After all, the data on mamograms is not giving a crystal clear picture and these are huge studies that have be replicated. Sociologic studies (nuture) in my experience are more difficult to control for and have more data/poor design problems. We may never know.
Finally, we are individuals. I am no great shakes as a clarinetist...but Sabine Meyer is. Even if society or women's genetics make for fewer great female clarinetists some women are sucessful. You could be one, your individual outcome is not dicated by the stats.
Ginny
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Author: LynnB
Date: 2002-03-04 16:03
Mark wrote:
Now, does anyone have any numbers for the m/f ratio of students that are graduating from the performance section of major music schools/conservatories?
This is a good question. It has been my experience (hardly scientific here) that there were many women music majors but once out of college, the guys stayed with it professionally. The women I knew made it a hobby.
A well-known college clarinet teacher was quoted as saying he's lost many very talented women clarinetists to marriage. So there may very well be less women actually auditioning, so there would be less getting jobs. It would be interesting to know these stats.
LynnB
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Author: LynnB
Date: 2002-03-04 16:05
I forgot to add...I'm going to see the VPO next week. It will be interesting to see if there are any protestors like there were a couple of years ago (about 150 people). I'll let you know if they show.
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2002-03-04 16:10
Some more numbers,
Boosey site out of 78 boosey clarinet artist I counted 8 women.
Vandoren site 42 clarinet artists, counted 1 woman.
Rico site 55 artists 5 women.
Selmer saw no women.
Leblanc could only find 5 artists 1 woman.
I think those numbers hint that at best 10% of the sponsored(= best??) players are women.
-S
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Author: Susie
Date: 2002-03-04 18:23
I agree that these statistics are critically important.
In science there are still fewer women than men (despite many more female scientists than there used to be) although the ratios have equalized slightly. A major factor isn't just that many women of childbearing age still choose not to work full time... it is the kind of work that they elect to do. Many women with children have a difficult time maintaining the 50-60 hour work weeks which are demanded, given the children's direct needs and child-care needs. In order to get tenure, you have to be able to keep that kind of schedule up for many years, and to write and publish in your "free time". In order to be around10 years after you're hired, you have to be headed for tenure,etc.,etc. so.... not many women last long enough to end up in places of authority, running labs, heading divisions or departments, etc.
I don't know what kind of schedule is expected of a professional clarinetist in a major orchestra. However, I can imagine that it is rigorous and consuming. I also wondered how many options for child care are available.... what happens when the child is sick? How many professional musicians are married to other professional musicians, leaving both of them with irregular, demanding schedules?... My clarinet teacher played professionally in an orchestra for about 10 years. She said she felt she had to stop when her children started school.... she just felt she needed to be home more....
Maybe this isn't it at all.... but I think seeing the data on how many males vs. females there are in orchestras begs the next few questions....
1. How many performance majors are M vs. F ?
2. Of these, who tries out for auditions?
3. How many men and how many women drop out of orchestras in their first 3-10 years for personal family reasons? (or %s of those auditioning)
4. IF all of these are equal, you might begin to wonder about judging panels.
5. An interesting question might also be.... what happens to all the female performance majors who choose not to audition or who choose to drop out of orchestral positions.
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Author: Susie
Date: 2002-03-04 18:26
Sorry...
the last question in my previous post should have read:
5. What happens to the female and male performance majors who elect not to audition or who drop out of orchestras?
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Author: diz
Date: 2002-03-04 21:11
Now that I've given this topic some though - overnight for me - I come to the conclusion that it would be almost impossible to quantify how many males or females end up getting orchestral positions. The process of research as I see it is:
1 - ratio of Conservatory graduates
2 - ratio of audition applicants
3 - ratio of successful appointees
Then there's the question, and rightly so, of the Musical Director's right to appoint whom he or she wishes in a principal chair. If I was running a company (and nowadays an orchestra is a business) - I would certainly want to at least have my say, if not right of veto on who is appointed. Then the 2nd and 3rd chairs should perhaps be left up to the principal or the conductor?
There seems to be way to many "ifs and buts" to ever come to any accurate statistic - I can say, however, that going on overall counts (which is all I can do) then the ratio of male to female is certainly at odds.
The Sydney Symphony (a very fine orchestra) has certainly addressed this as have our other orchestras and we have a fairly high ratio of females to male - including several outstanding women in high ranking positions: principal wind, principal cello, principal violin.
This discussion has been very interseting because there seems to be no right or wrong answer.
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Author: diz
Date: 2002-03-04 21:16
jez - I'm very curious about the British orchestras are you able to provide a similar listing that I did with "major" australian orchestras based on male to female wind players? This is burdensome, I know!
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Author: diz
Date: 2002-03-05 00:44
Now - unfortunatly, in the Brass department - Australian orchestras are very male oriented:
SSO
M - 12
F - 1
MSO
M - 13
F - 2
ASO
M - 11
F - 1
QSO
M - 11
F - 2
WASO
M - 6
F - 1
Vacant - 1
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Author: David Pegel
Date: 2002-03-05 01:01
I have slight input that might heighten the battle!!
If you look at Nashville Symphony, it's one of the 7 or so that has a greater number of female clarinets than males.
The catch? The director used to be female.
I'm starting to get the feeling (And I know that this is a VERY watered down generalization, but I feel the need to state it anyway.) that deep down, no matter what sex the director is or the "panel of judges" for some orchestras, there will be a little sexism to go round. There are undoubtedly MILLIONS of exceptions to this rule, but this is what I've drawn from my limited knowledge.
Now, a new question would be, "Why are there more male directors then female directors, or are there really?"
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Author: jez
Date: 2002-03-05 12:40
O.K. Diz here goes,
All the U.K. orchestras I could find. Woodwind sections
Female Male
B.B.C. Symphony 8 8
B.B.C. Philharmonic 5 7
Can't find BBC welsh or Scottish
B.B.C. Concert 5 3
London Symphony 3 13
London Philharmonic 3 9
Philharmonia 3 12
City of Birmingham S.O. 2 10
Royal Liverpool Phil. 6 5
Halle 3 9
Ulster Orch. 2 7
R. Scottish Nat. Orch. 3 8
Scottish Chamber 5 2
Royal Ballet 3 4
English Nat. Opera 4 12
Opera North 2 6
The count I did first was of just clarinet players
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Author: jez
Date: 2002-03-05 12:43
That hasn't come out as beautifully spaced as I did it. Sorry, but I think you can still understand the figures. Totals; 58 women 114 men.
jez
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Author: Kim
Date: 2002-03-05 14:17
To address the question of what happens to the female performance majors that don't continue pursuing orchestral careers, it might be best if we heard from some of them directly. Since that has yet to happen on this board, I can tell you about some gals that I went to school with that I've kept track of.
One went into a different profession entirely. She decided that between the politics and what she'd have to go through (in part, through watching some of the stuff I've gone through), that it just wasn't worth it, that life was too short. (I think she also believed herself not quite capable as well.)
I've known a handful that have gone the teaching route (whether private or college) even though that was not in their initial plans. These gals have, for the most part, allowed their husband's careers (whether musical or not) to take priority.
There are a couple also that have had children and have scaled back their aspirations as a result (basically trying to get the best gigs that they can locally, but not taking national auditions, etc.)
Then there are some very good musicians that manage to get regional orchestra jobs and take the occaional audition, but never really believe that they can get/deserve a better position.
One of the common things that I've observed in most of the women clarinetists that I've known is that they are much more likely than the guys to set their goals/aspirations lower than what they are actually capable of. Basically, they don't dare to think big, and resent the women who do, viewing the women that really try to reach for the brass ring as egotistical. This seems to hold true whether or not having kids enters the picture. Mind you, I'm not saying this is true of every female. I've had the good fortune to find some wonderful female friendships that are truely supportive of one another's successes, etc. I AM saying that this type of thing is way too prevalant among girls/women. So, I'm getting to one of my theories
Theory #1 is that women TRY to hold one another back. I see it frequently on this board with younger players. One wants to challenge, but has a dilemma because they will be punished socially for their success. (Girls have this social punishment thing mastered-I don't think that most guys indulge in this type of thing nearly as much). I find this at the adult level as well. Many women have tried to talk me into going down the path that THEY have chosen (be happy with what you have, settle for the local gigs, have kids), then get upset and distance themselves from me when it doesn't work, without offering any support for the path that I've chosen. Ugh!!! Why is this necessary?
Theory #2 Something that I've observed in students that I've had over the years is the following: The boys are just willing to take more risks. Sometimes it means that hideous sounds come out of the clarinet without them caring much either way, but sometimes it means that they progress by leaps and bounds. The girls that I've taught tend to be much more cautious. They want to make sure that they never make a 'horrible sound' on the instrument, and I always have a much larger battle over taking chances. The girls are more likely to think that everything always has to be perfect, which causes them to take less chances. Let's face it. In order to have great success at anything, one has to be willing to take some big chances. Part of that is being willing to risk major failure. (Think 'stockmarket', running for president, etc.) I think that the risk taking issue is part nature, part nurture. On the one hand, boys are just more willing to take risks, whether they're intelligent, calculated ones (which makes for good clarinetists), or stupid ones (resulting in more broken bones than girls, etc.) I mean, there is a REASON why car insurance rates are higher for teenage boys than girls.
So, here's my proposition to help close the gap, at least in part. #1 If you're a girl/woman, be genuinely supportive of your girlfriends' successes. If you CANNOT bring yourself to do this, at least do not socially punish an individual for her successes. (This means that you have to at least be polite to the girl challenging you for your seat. Also, no spreading nasty rumors about her!)
#2 Be more willing to take risks if you're female (not the stupid kind, but the ones that could potentially pay off). If you're teaching female students, encourage this in them. Interestingly enough, I seem to have the greatest success when teaching in this area in the following way. When encouraging a girl to really go for a certain thing musically, here's what works for me. I'll say something like, " I don't care if you squawk, play wrong notes, if a bird flies out of your instrument. That's all fine, but I just want you to do X, Y and Z" Somehow giving them permission to fail/sound bad manages to remove the barriers that prevents them from being more successful. What almost always results is a vast improvement. They take the necessary chances with good results. I have yet to hear any squawks/birds flying out of the instrument after I've said something like this. Some of the risk taking thing is probably biologically wired, but so much of it can be taught/nurtured.
Anyway, I'd love to hear any other theories that any of you have.
-Kim
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2002-03-05 19:58
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that clarinetists live a long time. Anthony Gigliotti was principal in Philadelphia for 50 years. Stanley Drucker is well over 50 in the New York Philharmonic and still going strong. In performing jobs that pay you a wage you can live on, turnover is glacial.
Thus, major orchestra clarinet positions reflect attitudes from as long ago as 1950, when women were systematically excluded everywhere. Even supposing the average tenure is 25 years, the attitudes in 1975 were hardly enlightened.
When a monster player comes along who happens to be a woman, and that woman wants an orchestral career, at least some jobs open up -- such as Michele Zukovsky in Los Angeles and Sabine Meyer in Berlin. And if Elsa Ludewig-Verdehr wanted an orchestra job, I think she would blow everyone else away and get one.
However, when Herbert von Karajan installed Sabine Meyer as principal in Berlin, the orchestra rebelled and precipitated his resignation as conductor. The reason was obviously false, going along the lines that Meyer was "a soloist, not an orchestral player." She was wonderful in Berlin, but she left there, I suspect in part because the men made her life difficult.
Another factor is that (even) today, men are socialized to be "macho" and endure things for "manly" reasons. Read Jack Brymer's two autobiographical books, "From Where I Sit" and the other one, the title of which I've forgotten. He tells of the need for physical stamina (he was a physical training instructor in the British Army) and willingness to endure great physical and emotional stress in order to be successful.
Until fairly recently, women were discouraged from physically difficult work, and I think socialization still has a lot of that baggage. And 50 years ago, male doctors were saying that women couldn't run more than 100 yards without damaging their delicate reproductive organs. Nonsense, of course, but taken really seriously in 1950, and even 1975.
That's not to say that prejudice has been eradicated, or that when a woman clarinetist wants to be taken seriously as an orchestral player, old attitudes aren't awakened.
The true test, though, is not to count existing sections, but who wins current auditions. My impression is that it's mostly men, but not so overwhelming as before.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: E. Michael Blake
Date: 2002-03-05 21:02
Since nobody else appears to have added up totals for Kim's list of clarinetists in U.S. orchestras, I've done it. I got a total of 135 males and 26 females. The females account for 16.15 percent of the clarinetists in orchestras. This counts the gender-unknown player in Oregon as male (from what I know of Japanese given names) and includes the non-tenured female in St. Louis.
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The Clarinet Pages
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