 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Elkwoman46
Date: 2007-02-09 13:37
Where I live, I only know of one orchestra. They played for free in a church and we found ourselves listening to such a treat, but about half way through the conductor stopped everything, turned around, and asked someone in the balcony to remove the child. But what was so strange, was I don't think anyone in the congregation was aware or was disturbed by any noise or even aware that something was wrong. So, when that happened, when everything came to a screeching halt, everyone became very tense in the congregation where we were, you could really feel the tension, trying not to make a sound or a move. It changed the atmosphere completely of something pleasant to something everyone wanted to leave or could not wait till it was over because of the conductor's scary behavior, and ruined the whole mood of this sacred music.
I am wondering, is that common behavior? Can a child possibly acting up in a balcony really disturb musicians? Pardon my ignorance, and I guess I don't get out much. Is the common?
Another question...while disruptive for sure, but do conductor's remove people who are having coughing fits or even cough occasionally from the audience?
Does a person coughing in the audience put an orchestra on edge?
What is the right behavior or tolerance in an assembly listening to classical or sacred music?
Thanks.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-02-09 13:55
It's a difficult one, but to be honest a concert setting really isn't the place for young children as they get bored easily, and restless.
I know I used to get bored and fidgity during assemblies and church services when I was young as it's not exactly the most interesting thing for a child to be taken to and expected to sit still and silent for the enitire duration, and take interest in the performance if they don't understand what it's all about.
But the general audience etiquette is to be still and concentrate in their own way on the performance, and most of all nowadays - switch off their mobiles as soon as they enter the auditorium. If they want to spend the entire time texting their friends, then they shouldn't even be there at all.
Children can't help it if they're bored, and adults should understand that as they were children once.
Though I can see the conductor's point if it is a distraction.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Dano
Date: 2007-02-09 14:13
I find that to be horrible behaviour. If this conductor did not want children or anyone else to make any noise during his preformance, he should not be playing in a church, free of charge at that. This is one of the reasons I can't play in orchestral setting anymore. ( I know, I have my own problems). I am really quite sick and tired of the pri-madonna attitude of some of these conductors that think music is more than "an enjoyable experience" for their audiences. They think that everyone should be as transfixed on what is going on as they are. That is not musicianship. That is flexing muscle that should not be shown during preformances. I understand all that goes with conducting and classical music and how nuances can be lost if there is too much other than the music going on but there is a place for that. That place is not in a church where everyone is welcome. Maybe if the audience complained it would be different. I think I, as a clarinetist in the orchestra, would have walked out when he interupted my flow. I guess that makes me a pri-madonna clarinetist?
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Author: John O'Janpa
Date: 2007-02-09 14:37
The conductor was a bit uptight. If silence was that important to him, he should have notified the church staff in advance to advise members that a nursery would be available for young children
Obviously to anyone serious about the music, as conductors usually are, unwanted noise of any kind can be a huge distraction. Basically a crying baby or a nagging cough can negate the efforts of 50 or 60 musicians who may heve been preparing for months.
Audience members should have the courtesy to remove crying infants or to temporarily leave the hall if they can't stop coughing.
I was once present at a classical guitar recital (no amplification) where an audience member was coughing repeatedly. The soloist would stare daggers at the offender each time he coughed, all to no avail. I suspect this was her senior recital culminating years of training, and was probably being recorded for posterity.
Audiences have generally become less polite in theaters, concerts, etc. as they have become used to having TV performances in their living rooms and musical performances in their houses and cars, and even while jogging.
They tend to forget that in live performances there are performers who can be distracted, and other audience members who are actually trying to enjoy the performance.
Post Edited (2007-02-09 17:26)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-02-09 14:43
I have seen ushers in Atlanta remove noisy patrons. Why stop and turn around when you can have your minions do the dirty work?
The surprise for me is that the conductor noticed at all. There are apocryphal stories such as the one in which Karajan finishes a rehearsal only to notice for the firt time that a large section of plaster had fallen from the ceiling and broken in pieces next to the podium while he was conducting - apparently too intent on music making to notice earlier. In the heat of battle, if the music and music making is sufficiently engaging, there shouldn't be much room for the performers to be distracted at all.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2007-02-09 15:43
It's a tough call. A crying baby can ruin a concert for everyone, and the parents should have had the courtesy to go outside.
Certainly the conductor could have been more courteous. There used to be a very deaf man in NYC who went to concerts every night. He turned his hearing aid all the way up, and it whistled constantly. All the ushers knew about him and knew to go quietly to him whenever the whistle began.
I once read a story on an album cover about the great contralto Ernestine Schumann-Heink, who shared a recital with a tenor. A baby in the front row began crying, and the tenor stopped and glared at the mother until she left in humiliation. She came back for Schumann-Heink's half, the baby cried again, and Schumann-Heink came to the front of the stage, kneeled down and crooned a lullaby until the baby fell asleep.
Every conductor knows to schedule the program with a break on the hour, to avoid the electronic watch beeps.
Ken Shaw
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Author: William
Date: 2007-02-09 17:15
One time, when our UW Concert Band was on tour of some Wi high schools, our conductor stopped suddenly and just stared at some students who were being rather noisy. They soon quited down without any words from the podium.
Sometimes, it depends a lot on the specific situation. A few years ago, our Municipal Band was giving a concert in a park, and about half way through our second number, a dog wandered up to the podium and, lifting his leg, made his own statement right there in front of everyone. Although the conductor and most of us in the front row practically "lost it", no words were spoken and we all somehow remainded in our seats not missing a single beat. Appropriately, at the end, we were showered with extra waves of applause--and the dog, after including our band within his territory, comfortly enjoyed the rest of our performance. No words from the podium were needed..........
The crying baby situation could have been handeled with more descrestion and everyone would have felt more comfortable. As performers, we are always in the "people business" and must accept that not everyone is always perfect. If you need absolute quiet, rent a recording studio.
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Author: jane84
Date: 2007-02-09 17:30
William wrote:
> The crying baby situation could have been handeled with more
> descrestion and everyone would have felt more comfortable. As
> performers, we are always in the "people business" and must
> accept that not everyone is always perfect. If you need
> absolute quiet, rent a recording studio.
Yes, I absolutely agree with that. Although I would consider it a bit impolite to bring a baby to a concert, people are people and unless they're dead, they all make some noise occasionally. Professionals should, of course, learn to ignore such.
I'm thinking of my old teacher: He used to tell us about how audiences behaved in Mozart or Beethoven's days(presumably having studied it at some time) : bringing food and wine, chatting with friends, shouting what they wanted to the performers, and of course applauding whenever they felt like it.
We don't want it to get too stiff either, do we?
-jane
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Author: bufclar
Date: 2007-02-09 17:34
A couple of years ago at a San Francisco Symphony concert, Someone's cell phone strated to ring. MTT turned around while still conducting the orchestra and stared at the person in the balcony until they got up and left. It must have only been like a minute but it seemed like 10 at least. It was impressive to see MTT staying with the orchestra while his attention was obviously else where. Talk about multi tasking! He turned around just in time to give a very clear cue to the low brass.
A church setting should be a little less strict but I still don't think young kids should be taken to concerts. Thats why orchestras perform "family concerts" where young kids can make all the noise they want. I also think in a situation like this that the conductor wanted the noise to stop for the audiences benifit and not his own.
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2007-02-09 17:58
Well, according the the Knight Foundation Report on the future of symphonic music, what that conductor did is exactly the sort of thing that keeps people away from symphony performances.
Massive distraction which destroys the tone set by the music or prevents an audience from hearing the performance is not a good thing. But as I understand it, the idea that symphonic music can only be enjoyed in a pristinely quiet room is a relatively new thought -- of the last century or so.
I doubt that Mozart's audiences were particularly concerned with being quiet, nor with clapping only at the "right" places, nor with avoiding side conversation. They may even have had the audacity to think that the musicians and conductor were there to please *them*, and not that they were there to please the orchestra.
Susan
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2007-02-09 18:26
If a crying baby is going to distract the orchestra that much, perhaps he should look into getting the orchestra amplified. :P
I think lots of ensembles these days freak out about playing in front of people and like to pretend they're still in the rehearsal hall. "Just pretend they're not there" is often the advice to a jittery performer about the audience. If having an audience is that horrifying to you, imho, you should be willing to try to find a way to cope with, or, ideally, embrace it (rather than shutting it out), or stop performing live.
In a lot of concerts I played with one particular group, there was a frequent audience member with a disability that would occasionally make a loud, happy "ah!" noise. Initially, it was distracting, though a bit funny. However, the person also served as a reminder that we're playing for real people, people we should try to communicate with, people who care what we sound like here and now. I think an orchestra that shuts itself off from the audience is a crime FAR worse than an audience that makes its presence known in an unfortunately disruptive manner.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: vin
Date: 2007-02-09 18:55
I am sorry, but if you are listening to unamplified music, and I mean, actually listening, a crying baby or other loud noises will disturb you. That's akin to saying if you are watching a movie and someone gets up in front of you repeatedly that "you are just being stuffy" or "aren't concentrating hard enough" if you get annoyed. If you are only casually watching the movie, as many people casually listen to concerts, it won't distract you that much. If you are listening as closely as you should ("actively listening," as Dimitri Mitropolous talked about), a crying baby should distract you.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-02-09 18:57
I wonder what the pastor was thinking. Various adults coughing at various times is not the same as a baby crying on a regular basis. People who allow their babies' crying to disturb others in a public situation are inconsiderate just as are those dog owners who allow their dogs to urinate on my mailbox. Turn the other cheek ??
Bob Draznik
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Author: johnnymo0829
Date: 2007-02-09 19:10
I think the parents should have had the kid out of the hall before the conductor had to stop. He should have waited till the end of the work being performed and then said something in a polite way. Not all conductors have the proper tact for public performence outside of a major concert hall, most parents are not suited to be parents either. I am constantly horrified at the number of people who have token children and let them run wild.
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Author: Elkwoman46
Date: 2007-02-09 19:15
These have been very interesting comments. Thank you.
But just to clarify, if I was not clear,...in the case that I spoke of, there was no crying child up in the balcony, in fact, that is why I mentioned that everyone around us felt tension, in fact, I am sure everyone in the audience felt that overwhelming tension, because I think we were all at a loss as to what the problem was.
Thank you kindly for your replies on this topic. It is really helpful to me.
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Author: joeyscl
Date: 2007-02-09 23:02
If i were an audience, and i did not approve of the Conductor's doings, i would leave along with the child.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2007-02-10 09:46
"Can a child possibly acting up in a balcony really disturb musicians? "
If there was no child crying then why this quote.....which is what most of us prob ably responded to. Was the kid crying or acting up?...and what's the difference?
Bob Draznik
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-02-10 10:25
I wonder how many people here can HONESTLY say they never got bored when taken to church, assembly or concert when they were still in single figures, and too young to know what's going on.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2007-02-10 14:35
Chris,
As a child, I was taken by my mother several times a year to what I now know were very good (but very long) a capella choral concerts. Even though I was clearly interested in music, and was an abnormally mild-mannered child (even my mother says that), I was bored to sleep. Those concerts seemed interminable.
I wondered what was wrong with me, that I didn't love being there.
Susan
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Author: Eileen
Date: 2007-02-10 18:45
I play in a community orchestra. Small children can't sit still and we have been very tolerant. Honestly, it's fun to watch them dance and prance around in time to the music. These kids have no idea this is supposed to be some stuffy, off-putting event. Our audience also typically claps between movements. not knowing the standard etiquette. So this conductor should lighten up or there will be no one showing up to watch the performance.
We did have a situation once where a child was obnoxiously yelling and screeching with of course an overly indulgent/clueless parent. Our assistant conductor did approach the parent and ask politely to have the child taken out. Perhaps your conductor could designate an usher or someone to deal with these types of situations on a one-on-one basis to avoid the chilling effect on the entire audience.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2007-02-10 20:11
If people are clapping between movements and you really don't want it, start the next movement almost immediately after finishing the one you're on, right in the middle of the applause. The audience will be a bit surprised about this, and, more likely than not, will hesitate before clapping after the next one until the conductor gives some indication that it's over.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2007-02-10 20:42
<<start the next movement almost immediately after finishing the one you're on, right in the middle of the applause. The audience will be a bit surprised about this, and, more likely than not, will hesitate before clapping after the next one>>
Yeah, and will probably hesitate before *attending* the next one.
Where did we get the idea that it's OK, or even desirable, to embarass the audience? I fully support the idea that audiences need to maintain a certain decorum during performances, but audience comfort (or to be more precise, lack of it) has been identified as one of the issues contributing to the decline in attendance at classical music performances.
It seems to me that we need to be finding ways to help the broadest possible audience enjoy the experience of concert-going, rather than insisting on the righteousness of our artistry.
Susan
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2007-02-10 22:19
<<Yeah, and will probably hesitate before *attending* the next one.>>
Seemed to work fine for the L.A. Phil earlier this year, but it was done without hostility, with a "let's do this!" feel. The other, more frequently utilized option in Disney Hall, of course, is to allow 45-second movement breaks waiting for the coughing to die down.
I do get the feeling with some performances, though, that the audience is a nuisance that gets in the way for 90 minutes, and is highly desired for 90 seconds.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2007-02-10 23:27
the parents of the crying child are probably embarrased enough without having the conductors embarrass them even more.
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Author: Fred
Date: 2007-02-10 23:43
A couple of issues stand out to me that make a difference. Free Concert . . . in a church . . . sacred music. If this were a paid admission performance at the orchestra's normal venue, I think the bar would be raised a bit higher for decorum. As it is, the orchestra has ventured out beyond the comfort of its own walls and is taking the music to the people. This is a great endeavor - one to be applauded. However, I don't think a director can expect the same level of sophistication in that venue. Therefore, I think the conductor erred.
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Author: marcia
Date: 2007-02-11 05:14
<<Can a child possibly acting up in a balcony really disturb musicians?>>
Having played a concert, in a church, with a child running around up in the balcony (audience was not in darkness, so child was very visible) I can say most definitely YES!! It is very distracting to say the least and I was annoyed that the parents let the behaviour continue. And as an audience member I am equally annoyed at unecessary noise made by audience members. I am there to hear the music, NOT the opinions of the person sitting a few seats away. If they do not want to listen to the music, they should not be there disturbing others who do want to listen. As a performer I would prefer a smaller attentive audience to a larger noisy audience. The conductor in the original question perhaps could have been more tactful, but I agree with his intent entirely.
Marcia
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2007-02-11 21:31
This reminds me of two events. First was an open rehearsal of the Chicago Civic Orchestra with Georg Solti. During a quiet moment of Bruckner's 0, someone sneezed. Solti turned around and screamed in his thick accent "Da sneezarr must leave!" I was astonished. The poor girl got up and left the hall.
Secondly was the recent opening of the new hall here in Nashville. During the last movement of Mahler 2, right before the choir comes in, the beautiful silence was rudely interrupted by of all things photographers trying to capture the momentous event. It was like a sporting event with all the shutters going! Unbelievable. We just sat there amazed that people were that inconsiderate. Leonard Slatkin, who was our conductor that evening, could do nothing but stare at them; he could say nothing because if was being broadcast live. Some musicians turned back to stare them down (they were in a box to my left).
Oh! and my favorite interruption was when I was playing Dances of Galanta and right after I played the descending line after the sustained Eb going down to the low G someones cell phone rang! After it rang I proceeded with the cadenza. I actually thought it was funny. I have a recording of this and it always makes me laugh to hear the ring in the middle of my solo.
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Author: marzi
Date: 2007-02-12 00:41
Lend the conductor 3 boys for a week or so, nothing short of a riot in the audience will bother them, in fact having a completely silent audience will be more distracting as in ---now what are they up to?.. As a player I have been spooked by absolute silence , just not used to it anymore i guess. I hadn't even realized we had a small child speaking in the audience till the recording was heard.
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Author: ElisaUK
Date: 2007-02-13 07:25
After a concert some time ago my brother waited to congratulate the solo cellist on her performance, and during the conversaton told her that he had heard her play twenty years ago in his home town. When he told her the name of the town she groaned and said she would never ever forget that day because there was a small child directly in front of her in the very front row who swung her legs to and fro through the whole performance and, infuriatingly, not even in time to the music. "Oh! how embarrassing," my brother said, "I am sorry to say that that must have been my little sister." I can only hope that now, fifty years or so later, my sense of timing has improved!
Elisabeth
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-02-13 08:22
"Our audience also typically claps between movements. not knowing the standard etiquette."
Too bad not many more people don't know it 
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