 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Rachel
Date: 2003-12-02 01:08
I was wondering if anyone else had had this experience.
Earlier this year, I was working on a piece. Going by my playing ability, the piece should have been easy. However, for some reason it just wouldn't come right. It seemed to get worse and worse the more I practiced it. I understood the piece intellectually, and there were no great technical difficulties, but for some reason whenever I tried to play it my fingers would refuse to move.
Has this ever happened to anyone?
What could cause this?
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Author: ChrisC
Date: 2003-12-02 01:43
I'm curious as to what the piece is. If it's in a style that you're unfamiliar with, I wouldn't be suprised at all that you struggled with it. Music in different styles, and from different eras, requires different approaches from the performer. For example, while I consider myself reasonably comfortable with 18th-19th century Romantic and Classical repertoire, playing the Stravinsky 3 Pieces would not come easily...on the other hand, if I told an experienced classical player with ten times as much technique as I have to play one of the klezmer tunes that I play on a regular basis, I would be very suprised if he/she could play it correctly without spending a great deal of time studying the style.
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Author: paulwl
Date: 2003-12-02 13:09
"Someone who knows" wrote:
>> I can't even imagine trying to explain to a conductor or contractor why it is I can't get through a piece I am being paid money to execute. "But I did practice it, I just can't play it! But don't worry, it's the only piece I have ever had trouble with, you can trust me." This will not work in a world where the phone numbers of 100 fine clarinet players without mental problems are available. <<
"Mental problems?" Hello, Bellevue? I've got an unbalanced clarinetist here who's endangering herself and anyone she plays with. Please come and take her to a soundproof rubber room.
No, seriously...Looks like you had a visceral reaction here, Someone. You're bringing Rachel up pretty short, saying in effect, "Excuses! excuses!" Seems excessive based on what she said.
It's up to Rachel to find a new approach to her nemesis piece. But she DOESN'T need 100 imaginary "perfect players" in the room with her. Her only competitor worth thinking about is herself.
Music is a tough enough profession without all the attitude.
<$.02>
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Author: msloss
Date: 2003-12-02 13:33
Regrettably, much of music is attitude. Great musicians exude confidence, even arrogance about their ability to execute on a piece. As a listener, you want to hear a performance that seems effortless, even it if it is the nastiest, most technical monstrosity ever written.
Rachel, either way, you are going to have to practice your way out of the corner. If you have the luxury of time, walk away from the piece and come back to it fresh. Build it up from the technical foundation, breaking it down and playing it slowly and deliberately, etc., etc. as preached here a thousand times.
"Someone"'s comments reflect good advice I got from Clark Brody when I was a young whippersnapper and came into his studio pleading similar difficulty with a Jean Jean etude. He told me nobody was interested in excuses, only results. It sure didn't feel like an excuse to me, but I went home, tail between my legs, and practiced the hell out of it.
Short version - he was right.
Good luck.
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Author: paulwl
Date: 2003-12-02 22:13
I don't think you can tell great musicians from nongreat by their arrogance, or lack of it. There are plenty of cocky mediocrities, and more than one genius with lousy self-esteem.
Besides, I wasn't exactly talking about that kind of "attitude"...I meant toxic perfectionism and fear. The Papa Helfgott kind of thing (if you've seen "Shine"). Nobody needs that oin their heads when they're trying to put a piece of music together.
Did your teacher tell every kid who ever got stuck on a piece that they were making "excuses"? I doubt it. I suspect he told you that with a knowing nod and a twinkle in the eye, and then took you thru a stumble spot or two, just enough that you began to see a way forward and resolved to try again. No?
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-12-02 22:27
Your experience is not unique to music. In life we frequently come up against problems that seem to frustrate our ability to resolve them. The solution....is try,try again. Never give up. Sleep on the problem and then attack it again. If you keep at it you will eventually resolve it......as long as you don't give up.
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Author: Rachel
Date: 2003-12-02 23:14
If Someone Who Knows would actually read my post properly instead of having a knee-jerk reaction to it, he/she would realise that it is not simply a matter of practice.
I said that the piece got worse the more I played it. I sight-read it almost perfectly, and a few weeks later I could hardly get past the first line.
This board has been very helpful in defeating mental blocks, too- most of which were caused by teachers accusing me of "making excuses" for things that I was having trouble with. I am not making excuses- I am trying to get assurance that I am not the only person in the history of the universe that has been defeated by a piece that they understand perfectly, have all the technical ability for, HAVE BEEN PRACTICING, and should be able to play. (You don't have these reactions to everyone else's posts, what exactly do you have against me?)
I was going to do the piece for an audition (I had to do a different piece in the end), so it might have been worry over that. I might get out the piece today and see how well I play it without the audition hanging over my head.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2003-12-03 01:07
Perhaps you are over-thinking it? I've been told repeatedly by teachers to play the music, not the page. When you first sight read it, you didn't have so many expectations in your head about it.
Try the following... (not all at the same time)
-Force yourself to play it from start to finish without stopping, no matter how badly you mess up
-Swing it obnoxiously
-Play only downbeats (quarter notes throughout the piece). After doing that for a while, play the whole piece, but only think about the downbeats -- don't give a second thought to missing anything else
-Play it in the restroom with your eyes closed and listen to the reverberation
-Play it while bobbing obnoxiously side to side, from one foot to another, as if on a boat in a storm, not necessarily corresponding to the beats
-Think of every lick as being slower than it actually is
-Slur the whole thing
-Accent all the offbeats
-Play it backwards
-Play it along with a friend, where s/he plays the whole thing and you only play downbeats, then vice versa
-March around the house while playing it
By the way, which piece are we talking about? Perhaps we could help you out better (or sympathize with the feelings of defeat) if we knew.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: john gibson
Date: 2003-12-03 01:25
Rachel
I have always wanted to play Artie Shaw's "Nightmare". It's a great bluesy tune that utilizes all the registers. I've never been able to duplicate what Artie does with that song. And have never found the score for it to practice.
Frustration. If I could only play that one....
John
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Author: Keil
Date: 2003-12-03 01:33
I think the problem lies in your thinking process. Upon reading your grievance I immediately felt pathos with all that you were saying. When i read the 2nd post, "...that has been defeated by a piece that they understand perfectly, have all the technical ability for, HAVE BEEN PRACTICING, and should be able to play." I was convinced of the problem. You have immediately sold yourself short. You said you were able to sightread it nearly perfectly and the more you played it the worst it became. Maybe when you sightread it you played it nearly perfectly because you were more focused. You approached with a different attitude than you did the 2nd time. You were really keen on playing the piece well and therefore you did. You were able to tap into your potential, but as soon as you began thinking " i should be able to play this because i have such and such technique and i understand it perfectly" you allowed your mental expectations to block your musical intuition, aka "genius". What you should do if immediately destroy the idea that you have been "defeated" by a piece. It is merely ink on paper without the capability of defeating anything or anyone. It's a mind game, a trap you've setup for yourself that you need to undue. It's important to remember that expectation is the forefather of dissappointment and as soon as you begin to "expect" results you begin to see dissappointment. You should approach every piece as if it were the hardest piece in the world, with the same concentration, mental preparedness, and tanacity of accomplishing your goal. Never allow yourself to think you've been defeated. I've found that revisiting a piece weeks, even months later helps alot. You might by then be past your mental block and be able to tap into your musical potential and really nail the piece the way you thought you "should". Until then all you can do is get rid of the defeatest mentality and realize that just like life, music making is a process, a continual growth and development. It ebbs and flows like the tide, one day you're high and the next day you're low always to come again to another high. Don't get discouraged. Life is too precious for that and it's really not that serious. I promise :-)
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Author: paulwl
Date: 2003-12-03 05:51
(Rachel) >> If Someone Who Knows would actually read my post properly instead of having a knee-jerk reaction to it, he/she would realise that it is not simply a matter of practice. <<
If I (a newbie to this board, but not to music bboards) may be permitted to judge from Someone's back postings, s/he seems to reduce pretty much everything to a matter of laziness/diligence, so anyone who challenges hi/r must obviously be lazy and worthy of scorn. And certain of hi/r fellow-posters, perhaps thinking that this is "old school" and will make them better musicians, eat it up and ask for seconds.
You can ignore the bad karma these people give out while still learning from them. They have some point: the clarinet won't play itself, and the music won't practice itself. Where this kind of thinking goes wrong is in assuming that your mental block will go away if you just keep bashing your head against it.
Kell has some good advice I can't add much to. Basically, don't be afraid of your psyche. Understand it. You can use that understanding to turn things to your advantage. I would not, however, approach every piece as if it were killer hard if it brings intimidation instead of concentration.
How come more teachers can't or don't teach practice strategies like Kell is talking about? Maybe they know more about music than about musicians as people.
Post Edited (2003-12-03 05:55)
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Author: msloss
Date: 2003-12-03 12:54
Paul, in a word, "no". Conservatory clarinet programs, particularly the one at Northwestern at the time, were altogether too cutthroat for any mollycoddling from the clarinet faculty. The competition from the other students also didn't let up. Your weakness was their opportunity. No equivalents of razor blades between the piano keys, but still not a lot of nurturing going on. Pretty frustrating at the time, but lo and behold, turns out that's what the professional world is like. As Someone Who Knows said, plenty of other players out there without a problem who'll gladly take the gig.
I found motivation and inspiration in the seeming infalibility of those clarinet giants (Brody and Marcellus), and the ruthless pursuit of perfection of my fellow students. I became a better clarinetist as much from the instruction I received as the drive to meet the expectations of my teachers and to work on a par, or beat, my colleagues.
Rachel, take a deep breath AND a step back. Invest that emotion and frustration into the energy of your music, and the will to methodolically tear down that piece and rebuild it in the practice room. There is no chant, no pill, no kind word that is going to fix it. Only your own talent and determination to own that piece.
Go get 'em.
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Author: graham
Date: 2003-12-03 14:52
Well, I think the board is a support group in a wide sense. If the answer to every question is:- "practice more you talentless idiot" then it will only be these super-tough hardened professionals who will have any reason to want to read that garbage. That leaves out humble amateurs and aspiring professionals, all of whom by the way know just how great are the obstacles to holding down a top musical job. If Mr Brody improved through his time with a tyrant conductor, and went from stunning to super stunning over 10 years, then that still implies there were things he did not do perfectly during that time. There were things he also had to face and address. Perhaps he had no-one to share them with because one sign of weakness and you get your cards........ One of the points about a BB (even for professionals who choose not to reveal their actual name) is that it is supposed to be a sympathetic environment. There is no point in it being anything else.
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Author: paulwl
Date: 2003-12-03 14:54
Good Lord. The poison that's spewed in the name of a beautiful art. Reiner was great because he was a miserable human being, Brody because he took it, Marcellus because he stayed in the pressure cooker. What they went thru, so must all.
You're making me grateful I chose jazz as my music. I haven't known anywhere near the kind of oppressive atmosphere among my colleagues or teachers that you describe. I chose music (my little corner of it anyway) as my sanctuary from all that.
There is so much cutthroat pitiless spirit in the world already. Music IS a sanctuary from all that for some of us (obviously not you). Had I thrived on the atmosphere you and Mark depict, I would have become a Wall Street investment banker and made a pile, or joined the Marine Corps and at least devoted my life to my country's defense.
You say time is running out for nonsense. Well, a lot of that "nonsense" is about being human. Taking care of yourself in something more lasting than just a professional, competitive way.
Having struggled with depression for years (there! I've said it!), I wish you could get a taste of how serious some of that "nonsense" is.
I suggest a Class A, gold-plated, super-deluxe nervous breakdown. Something you can't work away all by yourself. Something that brings the need to rely on others for mercy, understanding, forgiveness, and help. The need for wishy washy support group values will probably make you puke at first, but it may be that you'll discover something precious in just being human. Maybe then you really will "have a life."
I'm going back to my people, the jazzers and saxophonists. They can support each other and still play beautiful music.
My best to Rachel, who is the captain of her own ship. Love the music and yourself.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-12-03 15:02
paulwl wrote:
> Good Lord. The poison that's spewed in the name of a beautiful
> art. Reiner was great because he was a miserable human being,
> Brody because he took it, Marcellus because he stayed in the
> pressure cooker. What they went thru, so must all.
As you so well noted, the orchestral life isn't for everyone.
However, having been a professional jazz ( and C & W ) bass player for a few years "way back when", I seem to remember sharp knives even in that genre. Once you get reasonably near the top (or even halfway up, about as far as I got) people are gunning for you. I didn't have the stomach to make it my lifelong career; in fact, I gave up playing music on any instrument for over 15 years.
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Author: William
Date: 2003-12-03 15:31
A good friend of mine who is familiar with the New York professional scene, simply tells his university students experiancing a performance crisis, "No excuses. Shut up and Play!!" Seeminly harse advice--but stark reality. If you want to perform you have to "Just Do It".
You wrote, "but for some reason whenever I tried to play it my fingers would refuse to move."
You were not mentally focused or ready to play. Your music contractor, nor your conductor (or your public) want to hear any excuses, so get focused and play. However....................and perhaps, to help.....
More gentle advice--sometimes you can over analyze or over work, so perhaps just "stepping back" or taking a few minutes (hours, days) off will help simplify things. I know many musicians who have put their personal carrers on sabatical for long periods of time, only to come back refreshed and once again ready "take on the world" of performance. Try this and see if it helps you to focus your mental performance effort. But eventually, you will be asked to play something that you are not immediantely "in tune" with, and if you want your pay check at the end of the gig, you will have to play. No excuses. Practice is the answer. BTW, good luck and best wishes for the Holidays ahead.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-12-03 15:47
Rachel, you didn't initially mention that playing that piece was not an absolute requirement. Perhaps you just didn't really want to play it, rather preferring to play something else -- which you eventually did.
The pressure of being required to do anything is no deterrent to doing it well. However, selecting a task of any sort that is not required if you (for whatever reason) would rather not do it is a mistake, because your efforts may seem like a waste of time.
Several posters have reported on this board that some teachers simply yell at students (who should do better) when they make mistakes. By all means, anyone who responds well to that sort of motivation should seek out and enjoy such a teacher.
Regards,
John
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Author: msloss
Date: 2003-12-03 15:57
Can you give me the name of some of those mellow jazzers (ones that pay, please)? I could use a break. Man, I've worked with and for some world-class (expletive here) jazzers, some had talent to warrant it, others not. Jazz has given us such luminaries as Buddy Rich and Stan Kenton, who were brilliant musicians and band leaders and willing to give someone a break, but so the story goes, god help that person if they didn't deliver the goods.
Jazz is even worse than classical in some respects, because not only do you have to play what's on the page, you have to play what isn't. And just to make it fun, your spontaneous improvisational musings in whatever key the band leader calls better be good or the audience walks out and you don't get called for the next gig.
Not all art is born of love. There is a lot of pain and countless stories of miserable existences that yield incredible works. The payoff is in creating beautiful work and having people appreciate it. For those who dedicate themselves to it, that's reward enough. For the rest, there are other callings.
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2003-12-03 16:15
These have been very insightful comments about professional life vs. lessons. Sure, as a professional or even as a person auditioning, either you have it or you don't, no excuses. There are always others "better than you" waiting in the wings. This reminds me of seafaring mariners who dare to complain about their dangerous working conditions or who want life jackets just in case the wind or waves throw them overboard. Life is cheap, and there are a hundred more willing to step into a dead man's job.
I wonder how many of those professionals who've managed for many years to put up with intolerant conductors have had their own support systems at home to successfully counteract the negativity. Human beings are still human beings. They mentally and emotionally break down with abuse, some sooner than others. Then the psychologists and families have to come along and collect the pieces. The successful ones either break down sooner or later OR have a great support system in their private lives. If you hear enough people telling you that no matter what so-and-so says you really are a worthy person and you really do have talent, and if you fail they help you to focus on getting back up and succeeding again, then those thoughts can positively outlast the negative pressure cooker you might be in. A human being simply cannot be expected to be strong and "out there" alone in spite of all pressures.
So congratulations to those who've brought this up. Sure, there's no substitute for practice, but sometimes the aim of our practice is misguided or the mental games our brains play need to be addressed before the amazing talent we have inside can be unleashed. So we go to others who can help direct our energies and help us over the bump. Then in public we can have the appearance of being the one who everyone admires, who's never affected by what other say! Those who've been there know better.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-12-03 16:30
Brenda wrote:
> There are always others "better than you" waiting in the wings.
> This reminds me of seafaring mariners ... who want life
> jackets just in case the wind or waves throw them overboard.
Ah, bad analogy here. Not only do they want them, they're required in most cases where dangerous weather is involved (and should be mandatory all the time but aren't). There are a good number of modern life vests that don't get in the way of work.
Mark C, who spent 7 years in the Navy, too ...
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2003-12-03 16:33
Mental health and self-confidence are never guaranteed, even at the highest levels of playing. Many folks from my area may remember Danny Gatton, possibly one of the finest and most eclectic guitarists of all time (you name the style, he could play it better than just about anyone) who took his own life a few years ago, in his mid-40s, leaving behind a family, because he couldn't cope with not having received the national recognition and commercial success he (truly) deserved. Although I too often get irritated with the hand-holding and 'touchy-feely' postings from some of our younger members and non-professionals, I try to be somewhat tolerant --- and being in the middle, between the amateurs and the true professionals, I think I can see a bit of both sides. Mark Charette does a superb job running this BB, and he allows a bit of support group stuff, a bit of pro-to-pro talk, and what's in between ---- that's what makes this an exceptionally good BB. So how's about we chill a bit?
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-12-03 17:30
Mozart to Stadler, after Stadler complained of a difficult passage in K.581 (the Quintet):
Mozart: "Have you the notes on your instrument?"
Stadler: "To be sure they are on it."
Mozart: "Provided they exist it is your concern to produce them."
It's nice to see that things haven't changed since 1789...GBK
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2003-12-03 17:31
Mark - You're undoubtedly right about your experiences. However my comments were based on what I've heard and read over time. One discussion was with man I met in the course of preparing a Research and Development claim for him. He told me of the disinterest the commercial shippers have in the lives of the immigrants they hire by the dozens to work on the ships. This person had invented something to help protect lives in cases of disasters, and he was met with absolutely no interest. My husband agreed and has seen that kind of thing as well. He comes from a Navy family in South America - perhaps the Navy is different than the commercial shippers, but when you learn about the dreadful conditions these men work under it's quite shocking. Most of these men come from third world countries where life is indeed very disposable. Perhaps the U.S. treats their people a little better on account of law suits that can be a financial incentive to be more careful.
Likewise I've heard personal accounts of conditions under which professional musicians are forced to work. Medical journals tell about serious injuries to musicians that are left untreated just to keep up appearances, because others are in the wings ready to replace them as soon as an injury holds them back. Mental injury cannot be discounted so easily. Those who've not experienced it yet can't imagine the distress that others can impose. So it's very important to understand that these things happen and to protect ourselves, and if we're truly good friends, to help others through.
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Author: Rev. Avery
Date: 2003-12-03 18:59
My big challenge is playing hymns. I hope someday to be at your level of "defeat." ![[happy]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley12.gif)
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Author: Keil
Date: 2003-12-03 20:29
Like a great teacher recently told me, "i promise you that on your death bed you won't be thinking about how much more you should've practiced but rather the relationships you've made and the wonderful experiences of life you've had." Basically, in striving for excellence/ perfection I think we lose the very nature of what music should be, a beautiful expression of humanity and it's fallability. In saying that i don't mean to imply that one should go around playing incorrectly just for the sake of doing so, but one should not hang on to the cracked notes or missed runs because in the whole scheme of things, those people who really cherish the fine art of music making don't really care. Some of the most sublime performances i've heard were those that carried an imperfection or 2, and there have been many a technically accurate, tonally "correct" performance that left me completely unmoved and ultimately unconvinced of anything other than i would have rather been shopping. In the end I have come to realize that i prefer a passionate, possibly flawed performance, over a technically perfect dead performance. Once i realized this it freed up my playing so much and i find that a mistake isn't as tragic as once thought and often times a little unconventional, yet really exhilirating. The true sign of a great musical talent isn't the lack of mistakes he/she makes, but rather the way in which he/she recovers from them. Let your recovery be as glorious as your ideal performance.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2003-12-03 20:52
Keil, what you say is lovely, but in reality, at least in the world of classical music, those lucky musicians who are afforded the opportunity to make the sublime musical statements of which you speak are those who have practiced their behinds off for years and performed FLAWLESSLY for numerous auditions to obtain their orchestra chairs. You're right that if they make a mistake or two occasionally while performing it's not necessarily the end of the world --- but how do you think they got there in the first place? Now you and I (forgive me for making an assumption, that you're not a clarinetist in a major professional musical organization) can practice or not, as we see fit, and make all the flubs we like, and nobody will care -- that's true --- because nobody is listening to us anyway. Sorry, but for the most part the notion of 'just play with heart and soul, and the people will enjoy it' is a bit too simplistic and is really just wishful thinking in today's world of mass media and a far greater number of competent musicians than there are competent listeners to hear them. You wanna play for people (your cat and dog and next-door neighbors don't count), ya gotta practice like crazy!
I guess Johh Gibson was right --- I am getting crotchety.........
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-12-03 21:01
Keil wrote:
> In the end I have come to realize that i prefer a
> passionate, possibly flawed performance, over a technically
> perfect dead performance.
In the end I have found that I prefer a technically perfect, passionate perfomance. It's not either/or.
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-12-03 21:29
Mark Charette said:
"In the end I have found that I prefer a technically perfect, passionate perfomance. It's not either/or"
So, buy CDs which are studio recorded and you'll never be let down, perhaps? One big reason why I love the live performance and hate the CD.
Which reminds me of a Karajan anecdote: Denis Brain (or was that Tuckwell, can't remember) was principal horn with the LSO and they had been playing a lot of (very) difficult Strauss tone poems. Brain cracked on a high note and Karajan said "He's mortal, afterall".
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
Post Edited (2003-12-03 21:30)
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Author: Rev. Avery
Date: 2003-12-03 21:34
On B. Goodman's Yale recordings he makes a lot of "mistakes." But, I believe the freedom he had to really let go with or without the mistakes made for some incredible playing. I don't mind the "mistakes" when the performance is alive!
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2003-12-03 21:42
But even live performances (as Mark suggested) can be technically perfect as well as passionate --- with the extremely high level of musical talent in the world today, it happens frequently (and not just in the classical world) -- one doesn't have to buy a CD! I'll never forget a live performance I heard about ten years ago of the incredible jazz saxophonist Michael Brecker and his (then) touring combo --- they came to Washington DC as one of the last (or maybe it was the last) stop of a world tour, and they were HOT! They played all the tunes I knew by heart from their CDs --- note-perfect, at tempi about 30% faster than the recorded versions --- and believe me, they had passion!
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Author: Rachel
Date: 2003-12-03 22:56
Someone who knows: thank you for trying to be reasonable, I appreciate it. You are still misconstruing my intentions in posting on this BB, though. I was not looking for "hand-holding", just for a little encouragement. Even big, tough, college students need encouragement sometimes.
To all the people who are pointing out how tough the professional world is: I am very much aware of that. That is why we need a supportive place like this BB.
I tried playing the piece yesterday, and it came out quite well, with no more mistakes than you'd expect for not having even thought about a piece for months.
To satisfy everyone's curiosity, the piece in question is Pendericki's '3 Miniatures'
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Author: TerpUMD
Date: 2003-12-03 23:24
My senior recital in high school I let my nerves get to me due to my social anxiety I had at the time (later on I discovered the wonders of Paxil and Benzos). But anyway...
So there I was, playing Adagio and Tarantella by Cavalini (if memory serves correct)....and right after the cadenza I suddenly stopped. I froze up in front of everyone and gaged for a second. Suddenly my teacher asked if I was all right from the audience. I nodded...looked at my accompianist and started again.
The rest of the piece was "I wanna get this over with...oh my god, what the hell is happening to me?!" Thus, I was biting HARD and my sound closed up for the rest of the piece.
Finally at the end, the run up to the high G was ok, but it was SOOOOO out of tune and SO pinched. I left the stage after a somewhat mediocre applause downtroden. All that work, all that preparation, for a poor performance. I always practice like a performance, and perform like a practice...but this physiological problem at the time got the best of me.
But there was a light at the end of the tunnel. I was determined to some day use it as an audition piece. I did so for my basketball pep band audition here at Maryland my sophomore year. I started with the Rhapsody in Blue smear...got some smiles from that, then went directly into the Cavalini. PERFECT.
I achieved 2nd chair. Only the first two clarinets get to travel with the team during tournament season. And WOW, what a time I had. Atlanta, Boise, Anahiem, Miami. I'll never forget it.
Guess it just goes to show, you can always have your personal revenge on your previous defeats.
Rob
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Author: Keil
Date: 2003-12-04 01:36
What Dave and Mark fail to point out is that these people who we admire who play technically perfect didn't always play technically perfect. There was a time when they too made mistakes, mistakes through which they learned and achieved a level of PERCEIVED perfection. In trying to maintain a strong sense of "reality" and "how the real world is" I think we lose sight of the main objective, to make beautiful music. Who has time to get caught up in what the judges are thinking and how perfect something is, that will only lead to hendering anything worth playing/ listening to. It is true, ultimately the best performance is a technically flawless passionate one but to be perfectly honest, that doesn't happen as often as we have led ourselves to believe. The fact of the matter is the majority of the musicians in the world are NOT any better than you and I, they just know how to deliver when it counts. It gets so frustrating to come on this board and read the countless amount of remarks that are simply, "telling it like it is", "setting the record straight", "being honest". I think it would serve Rachel better to come on the board and find people who empathize with her plight, help to reguide her misguided notion of defeat, and in some way give her something that she can hold on to besides, "The world is cruel..." ;"We demand perfection..."; "There are many people who can do it better than you..." It's amazing how this Board can serve so many purposes all at once. Would it be so hard to have some less bitter, less jaded comments prevail? Why discourage the future? We all fell a MANY of times when we tried to walk, ride a bike... failure is natural... perfection is supernatural. The truth of the matter is it took a lot of missed notes and cracked reeds for our clarinet wonders to be at the pinnacle they are today and yet they still manage to humble themselves every morning and put their pants on one leg at a time. This idea of perfection as a whole is the very reason why we have more technicians than musicians today. Not all of us have the luxury of having played Beethoven's 8th 100 times with an orchestra prior to recording it.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-12-04 02:18
Keil wrote:
> What Dave and Mark fail to point out is that these people who
> we admire who play technically perfect didn't always play
> technically perfect.
Don't need to point it out. It's my preference.
> There was a time when they too made
> mistakes, mistakes through which they learned and achieved a
> level of PERCEIVED perfection. In trying to maintain a strong
> sense of "reality" and "how the real world is" I think we lose
> sight of the main objective, to make beautiful music.
I disagree. I expect that anyone performing in front of an audience needs to do both things - play technically perfect AND play beautifully. If you can't do both then either you're not prepared or the piece is beyond your current level of mastery.
> Who has
> time to get caught up in what the judges are thinking and how
> perfect something is, that will only lead to hendering anything
> worth playing/ listening to.
Judges? Who's talking about judges? How did that jump in here?
> I t is true, ultimately the best
> performance is a technically flawless passionate one but to be
> perfectly honest, that doesn't happen as often as we have led
> ourselves to believe.
I don't think you're speaking for me. When I listen to real, consummate professionals play live, I more often than not hear both. Whether it's to my taste or not is a different thing,.
> The fact of the matter is the majority of
> the musicians in the world are NOT any better than you and I,
> they just know how to deliver when it counts.
Depending on your definition of musician - perhaps you're right. If you're talking about the people who get paid to play day in, day out, sick, healthy, not "in the mood", whatever (the John Moses's of the world) - I think you're very, very wrong. Or have been misled. They're better than you and I.
> It gets so
> frustrating to come on this board and read the countless amount
> of remarks that are simply, "telling it like it is", "setting
> the record straight", "being honest". I think it would serve
> Rachel better to come on the board and find people who
> empathize with her plight, help to reguide her misguided notion
> of defeat, and in some way give her something that she can hold
> on to besides, "The world is cruel..." ;"We demand
> perfection..."; "There are many people who can do it better
> than you..."
But - and I can see that you don't like this - it's true. No one will allow you any excuse.
> It's amazing how this Board can serve so many
> purposes all at once. Would it be so hard to have some less
> bitter, less jaded comments prevail? Why discourage the future?
> We all fell a MANY of times when we tried to walk, ride a
> bike... failure is natural... perfection is supernatural. The
> truth of the matter is it took a lot of missed notes and
> cracked reeds for our clarinet wonders to be at the pinnacle
> they are today and yet they still manage to humble themselves
> every morning and put their pants on one leg at a time. This
> idea of perfection as a whole is the very reason why we have
> more technicians than musicians today. Not all of us have the
> luxury of having played Beethoven's 8th 100 times with an
> orchestra prior to recording it.
Well, I see that you've now twisted things out of proportion. We know how many hours it takes, how much blood, sweat, and tears it takes. After all, we're involved in this. What you fail to see, I think, that in the end, on stage, in front of that audience, acting as a professional musician - it doesn't matter one whit what went into making that music. The audience doesn't care. What they care about is that you give a good performance - both in technique and artistry.
As an amateur or someone aspiring to be a professional - you're accorded a little bit of leniency. But, get yourself into a conservatory where all the players are monster players, technique is already a given before you even get in.
As the old adage goes:
You miss one note - you notice. You miss 2 notes - the critics notice. You miss 3 notes - the audience notices. You miss 4 notes - you don't get invited back. (until you're a very well known quantity. Only then can you afford to have a bad day. But even then, it's got to be a rare one ...)
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Author: paulwl
Date: 2003-12-04 14:28
I didn't want to delurk again, but since the discussion has cooled off a bit, I figure it's worth a try.
And I promise not to try to make humanists out of any of you. No more wishing people nervous breakdowns. Them that can't hack it are to be regarded as victims of natural selection...personally tragic, but professionally inevitable, and in the end, best for the art.
Mark Charette wrote:
>> What you fail to see, I think, that in the end, on stage, in front of that audience, acting as a professional musician - it doesn't matter one whit what went into making that music. The audience doesn't care. <<
The Audience. That magnificent abstraction. That Which Does Not Care.
Not "the audience," which is just a hallful of people with differing minds and ears and opinions (notice I didn't say feelings, I'll give you that much). The Audience, the perfect critic, a cold sacred black monolith polished to a mirror shine that reflects every nuance of every note. The Audience is all.
>> What they care about is that you give a good performance - both in technique and artistry. <<
OK, that's a little less abstract. But why "good" when we've been talking "perfect?"
And are you really trying to please the audience? Isn't it the all-knowing critics you must please – the conductor, the MDs, the competition judges, the "monster" standards set by your teachers and peers?
GBK wrote:
>> Mozart: "Have you the notes on your instrument?"
Stadler: "To be sure they are on it."
Mozart: "Provided they exist it is your concern to produce them." <<
It's nice to see that things haven't changed since 1789...GBK <<
It's not nice, GBK. Not at all. But we're obviously not here to be nice.
My mother used to tell me: "We have to be kind and good to each other. What else do we have?" Well, I'm beginning to get an idea what else there is. Music as a sort of spiritual materialism, perhaps. There is what is less than human – the notes. And then there is what is more than human – call it the muse, God, genius, whatever. What is in between is irrelevant except as conduit.
I don't think I'll ever fully appreciate it, or why people give their lives to it, but I'm beginning to get an idea.
<$.04 = too overblown for $.02>
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2003-12-04 14:45
[The following question is meant to be amusing, not mean-spirited]
Didn't Frank Zappa (an extremely talented musician, a humanist in his own way, and someone who made many mistakes in his music as well as his life) have an album titled,
"Shut Up and Play Yer Guitar" ?
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Author: graham
Date: 2003-12-04 16:43
That old adage usually surfaces as the statement by Paderewski: "If I don't practice for a day, I notice. If I don't practice for two days......".
Brymer mentions in his autobiography about how he visited a music shop when he was at the height of his powers, heard another player in the next door practice room, was told who he was (a name he recognised) and proceeded to listen to a level of technical playing that he, Brymer, was not able to emulate. He remarked that he never mentioned the point either to that player or to the player's son (also a fine player). Why? "Some hang up I suppose" thought Brymer. You can see why top professionals have these hang ups, but then, Brymer was able, towards the end of his career, though not at its very end, to admit in an autobiography that he was not a technical super star, and other people could sometimes play him off the part. And whatever anyone thinks about Brymer, he sold a lot more records than many of the super heros that seem to be referred to in this thread, and he got greater critical acclaim, and he enthused more youngsters. So there is life outside perfection.
Talking of which, the reference by Karajan was to Dennis Brain, and the orchestra in question was the Philharmonia, of which Karajan was the chief conductor in the 1950s.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-12-04 17:32
paulwl wrote:
> It's not nice, GBK. Not at all. But we're obviously not here to be nice.
I do not have a problem with a performance error. We all make them, the human body is not a perfect machine. (Isn't that why pencils have erasers?)
I do have a big problem with not spending the requisite time, preparation and rehearsal before presenting a piece in public.
Nice? Sorry, the music business is not nice. But either is acting, directing, conducting, or any other artistic endeavor.
Just ask any clarinetist (or actor) who was passed over on an audition how nice the business is.
Unfortunately we are all victims of our own (perfect) technology and have come to expect flawlessness 100% of the time ...GBK
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2003-12-05 00:07
I think I had a similar experience to Rachel's two weeks ago when I first started to practice Frank Martin: Concerto for 7 instruments, performance in Februari. The first three days of practicing was like starting from scratch every morning. Things were just difficult to memorize for some reason and it's not a difficult piece. In my case I'm sure I had a lack of concentration since I had a few other things in my life to worry about.
After the tough beginning it came on nicely and now I have it safely in my hands.
Alphie
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-12-05 00:22
i seem to remeber a very similar experience with the first part of the Jaques Hetu concerto for trombone. One nasty piece, which not one wind player in our orchestra ever felt comfortable with.
David Dow
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Author: wjk
Date: 2003-12-05 02:12
One would like to think that Brahms' great friend, the surgeon Billroth was not "defeated" by too many of his cases. In fact, he was one of the great surgical innovators in history. I would think he approached his cases with supreme confidence, aware that a "bad day" or the equivalent of "writer's block" was not an option given a patient's life was on the line. It would appear that Brahm's took his job seriously as well, given that he produced some of the greatest works in the history of music. It is my belief that such men do not harbor negative or defeatist attitudes.
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Author: paulwl
Date: 2003-12-05 04:17
Such men (just men?) are geniuses. Geniuses vary.
I'll concede that a world-renowned surgeon has to have superhuman self-control, but are you aware how many great musicians have had to battle depression, breakdown, even psychosis? Some of them, no doubt, from taking their work all TOO seriously?
I question the impulse to draw lessons of personal conduct from the old masters. Their veneration goes with the territory here, but our understanding of the human psyche has advanced immeasurably since their day.
Then again, some long for a simpler era, when men (yes, just men) were made of sterner stuff. Some raise the cry of "Excuses! excuses!" and counsel a good kick in the rear end as the cure for all things. One hopes someday to give them a taste of their own medicine.
On to something more constructive. Awhile ago, to very little response, Brenda wrote:
>> I wonder how many of those professionals who've managed for many years to put up with intolerant conductors have had their own support systems at home to successfully counteract the negativity. <<
I wonder myself. I assume they got no instruction in self-care from conservatory level music programs. How do people reconcile a loving and caring environment with one where there is literally no forgiveness for failure? Is it even possible?
Post Edited (2003-12-05 04:50)
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2003-12-05 08:23
I tried to send an attachment. No luck.
Post Edited (2003-12-05 08:33)
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Author: justwannaplay
Date: 2003-12-05 09:17
'such men do not harbor negative or defeatist attitudes.'
examples show otherwise.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Rackmaninov, who underwent hypnosis to get over his 'composer's block'; it worked and he went on to produce more beautiful music.
Or Yehudi Mehuin (sp?), who had a crisis in his playing and took up Yoga with one of the masters (whose name escapes me); he came back with renewed confidence.
Geez, wasn't it Shubert who had a break-down? He must have had some 'mental problems'. Mahler too? Sorry if my memory is fuzzy on this, but I seem to remember this being the case.
It sounds like Rachel is trying to get to grips with something that is really, quite common, and being young, she must have just encountered it. Perhaps she just really doesn't like the piece, or something else in her life is distracting her. I'd be worried if she were to never go through this, and played and practiced ever piece like a heartless automaton.
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Author: paulwl
Date: 2003-12-05 17:47
Spoken like a true nonprofessional. :-)
Let me lay a little Webster on you:
ethos
\E"thos\, n. [L., fr. Gr. ? character. See Ethic.] 1. The character, sentiment, or disposition of a community or people, considered as a natural endowment; the spirit which actuates manners and customs; also, the characteristic tone or genius of an institution or social organization.
In most callings, if you want to do anything meaningful, you have to buy into an ethos. It varies from vague and flexible to strict and exacting, depending on the field.
Maybe when they ask "Do you have the passion/ the dedication/the fire within?" what it really means is: "Are you prepared to live the ethos?"
Rachmaninoff and Menuhin were genuises – giants. They could transcend the ethos, but obviously they had to come up within it and pay their dues. Then, as sometimes happens, the ethos began to corrode them and have bad effects.
Being giants (known quantities, as Mark C put it – and then some), they could afford to have a bad day, and knew it would not put an automatic end to their reputations. So they could go on a personal journey to transcend the ethos.
That may not be an option for nongiants, because the ethos is bigger than they are, and they must live by it or fall by it.
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Author: wjk
Date: 2003-12-06 01:58
One might wish to read "Toward the Zen of Performance-Music Improvisation Therapy for the Development of Self-Confidence in the Performer. " It is by Dorita S. Berger, and I purchased it from Van Cott Information Services. An interesting quote from the book:
"If music has such healing powers, then why aren't musicians the healthiest people around?"
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Author: Rachel
Date: 2003-12-06 03:06
All you wonderful professional musicians who are telling me how tough the professional world is- I presume that when you were students (but of course you never were, because you were obviously BORN knowing everything about music), you never had a piece that gave you trouble at all?
I did tell everyone that I have got the idea of the piece now- I think I needed to stop stressing so much.
Now I'm off to make excuses- I mean, PRACTICE.
Post Edited (2003-12-06 03:39)
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2003-12-06 08:21
Dear Rachel. Real professionals have a much more humble attitude than this bunch of wannabees who have taken their time to over analyse the little temporary problem you had with your piece at first. That's one of the toughest parts being professional to always having to live up to such peoples expectations. Before you know it they can stab you in the back in the press or just gossiping in bars where they hang out because artists and orchestra people are there.
Alphie
Post Edited (2003-12-06 08:40)
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2003-12-06 08:28
If I have a piece that completely and totally ceases to give me trouble, I get worried. Looking back, it's the times when I thought I knew everything that I played the worst. This applies to everything from the Malcolm Arnold Sonatina to When the Saints Go Marching In. When I have trouble, I am more careful and continuously making improvements and adjustments.
My other major (yes, I'm on the 7-year plan) is computer science, where the statement "A product is never finished -- You keep working on it until it ships" holds true. I believe the same is true for music: A piece is never truly perfected (though some performances have come incredibly close). You keep practicing until it is time to perform.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-12-06 12:55
In many regards there is no easy piece ever written.
The criteria I use for a performance are:
Does my sound and phrasing live up to the expectations I have of what the music should be?
Am I happy with the tonal colour and dynamics...in other words expression?
Does my articulation sound natural and unforced..rather more like a string style of articulation?
Do my reeds suit the quality of the music. For example is my reed suited to the Brahms Quintet or more a Weber reed?
Are there any areas in artistic interpretation that need improvement? Is there a need for some rubato in places? Does the music require Rubato or not?
Secondly, does the music have a natural unforced quality when I play it? How well does piece flow? etc.
Does my technique employed in a given piece add or seem part of the music?
Do I follow the dynamics of the composer? How can I improve on elements of style in my practice?
Do I have a variety of reeds which enable me to change tone colours for the various pieces of music?
How is my pitch throughout the piece of music? I my sound focused and controlled? etc.
Have I given thought to tempi indications and chosen a comfortable tempi? Can I play this at the tempi the composer wants?
Many thoughts...
David Dow
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Author: paulwl
Date: 2003-12-06 14:01
David L. Dow wrote:
>> Are there any areas in artistic interpretation that need improvement? Is there a need for some rubato in places? Does the music require Rubato or not? <<
Should the first "rubato" be "vibrato"?
I've been noticing something...Many of the posters counseling a more philosophical outlook come from outside America. Brenda from Canada. Alphie from Sweden. Graham I suspect is British, by his orthography ("Mr ", "no-one") and his name. Places with a somewhat lower-key profile in the music establishment (and I don't mean any slight by that!). Makes me wonder what a German or French perspective might be.
Rachel wrote:
>> I think I needed to stop stressing so much. <<
In a nutshell.
Now I'm off to make excuses- I mean, PRACTICE. <<
Bless you. Go get 'em.
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2003-12-06 14:54
paulwl, I think you would be surprised how many world stars Sweden has produced over the years per capita. And how can you call Britain a "low- key profile" in the music establishment? It says more about your lack of perspective than anything else.
Alphie
Post Edited (2003-12-08 08:23)
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Author: paulwl
Date: 2003-12-06 16:04
I guess that didn't quite come over as intended. I was trying to allude to national stereotypes (shame on me) of temperamental, authoritarian German/Austrian/French/Italian/Hungarian/Russian maestri, teachers, soloists, from countries with more dominance in the historical canon of composers. And the possibility that their influence is a little more dominant in American music than that of other countries.
Just a thought; too vague even to call it an opinion, really. If anyone takes it as unfair, that's not my wish, and I'll withdraw it.
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Author: contragirl
Date: 2003-12-06 22:01
Rachel, I know exactly what you are going through!
This actually happens to me once in a while. You get a piece, you sight read it fine, then you start rehearsing it, it progressively gets worse. Then you get to your lesson and you just mess up on the easiest things. Or you practice fine, and then stink up the lesson. I have had a lot of these moments where I just "brain fart" and can't get my fingers to respond to my demands.
It's horrible!!
What I have realized, though, is that I usually have kinda gotten tired of the piece and I think I subconsciously refuse to want to learn it anymore. So, if I stop playing that one piece for a little while, I come back to it and can play it almost perfectly.
I had this problem with the Brahms Sonata. I could not get anything faster than a eighth note to come out evenly, not to mention they usually came out as wrong notes. Of course, I can't just skip my lessons because I can't play something, so I had to play it for my teacher and play it in front of my studio class with piano. Every time I would muff up my sixteenth notes. I could probably play is perfectly now! But last year... forget it.
Mental problems have nothing to do with people like us being unable to sit for long periods of time, it's just a hiccup in our brain that makes us freeze up at the worst times. I can practice for hours, but just sometimes, I can't get my technique to function correctly. I call this my "bad fingering day," happens to me once in a while now. It doesn't mean you suck, it's just something we need to get over. I got in trouble for "excuses," too. But it wasn't an excuse... you could spend a freakin hour on it and still freeze up!
And sometimes we think too much at passages. Instead of letting the notes flow, sometimes our brain is analyzing the music instead of playing the notes. I "think" too much when I play, which makes me forget which notes I am playing in a fast passage.
I think I know what you are going through. I say take a break from it for a little while. I take breaks from pieces that give me trouble, and a couple days later, it just clicks and I can go into a lesson and kick its butt!
I am no professional, and I was not born with super clarinet powers, by no means! I will comfort you.
Good luck with your piece, and this time, you kick its butt!
--Contragirl
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Author: skye
Date: 2003-12-06 23:21
All the time. Most recently the Milhaud Duo Concertante and the Horovitz Sonatina. Then I decided something shocking had happened to my sound. Then I gave up for a few weeks, and low and behold, the Milhaud wasn't sounding too bad GGRRRR What's that about?????
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Author: skye
Date: 2003-12-06 23:22
Hmmm that should have been Lo! Too late at night for me to be posting.
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Author: Rachel
Date: 2003-12-08 00:46
I was thinking about this thread last night, and I thought that maybe some of the more abrasive responses could have been because the word "Defeated" in the title touched a raw nerve with some people. Is this the case? Would people have reacted differently if the topic had been something like "Ever had a piece give you inordinate amounts of trouble?"
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Author: paulwl
Date: 2003-12-08 01:17
Excellent point, Rachel.
Consider chickens. If one gets hurt and shows a bit of blood, the rest of the flock will peck him to death. That's their instinct.
The question is, do people (and musicians) have that same instinct? Or do they have to be trained to it?
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2003-12-08 07:28
Only musicians with a very bad self-esteem, who never can admit that they have any weak spots feel the erge to peck on others in an ugly way. That's their only way to ventilate their own frustrations that remind them about their mortality.
But remember, these people don't care so much about music. They are in the music business only to climb and to be the best in areas that are measurable. Like technique and speed. But their narcissistic personalities that are cold as fish can't express anything, only produce and deliver and they are good at it.
--------------
I want to take the opportunity to apologize to paulwl for misunderstanding your earlier post. I was angry for other things I read on this thread and you ended up in the line of fire. You actually bring up an interesting point thinking twice about it.
Alphie
Post Edited (2003-12-08 08:24)
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-12-08 12:01
Rubato is defintely what I mean...to be simply metronic always is quite dull. Sometimes composers write in ritardando...
but some music as Brahms and certainlly Dvorak have a huge scope in terms of artistic interpretation....
my experience has been the finest musicians have the easiest personalities to get along with all because they have no agenda, just to make great music...
passion can go a long way, and if you believe in yourself then others will believe in your interpretation...isn't music all about individuality and expression....
I just don't want to sound like the suburbs....
David Dow
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Author: msloss
Date: 2003-12-09 15:29
Hey, Mark C, are we making a championship run for most responses to a single thread yet? We could all pile on some more to get the number up if you win a trip to Florida or a lifetime supply of cheddar! If this one has petered out, I can always start a thread on whether Acker Bilk' and Richard Stoltzman's lovechild would play a Chedeville or Cicero Kaspar.
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Author: Rachel
Date: 2003-12-09 23:00
I must say that I do kind of like it when one of my posts sparks off a...discussion...like this one.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2003-12-09 23:48
Hi Rachel,
It occurs to me that the only way a piece can defeat you is if you fight it. If you haven't already read it, I think you might enjoy (and learn some useful things from) Madeline Bruser's "The Art of Practicing."
Best regards,
jnk
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The Clarinet Pages
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