 The Fingering Forum
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Author: me
Date: 2002-12-24 01:53
I was looking at a piece of music for piano and i happend to see an "X" by one of the notes. i know that it wasnt a flat or natural sign and if anyone plays the piano and happens to know what it means than i would be happy to listen. The music is called moonlight sonate by beethoven and it is at this web site: http://www.geocities.com/superleon2000/moonltsnta.pdf
its on page 3 on the very last measure but thats not the only one on the page.
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Author: oboeguy
Date: 2002-12-24 02:59
yep, double sharp, play the next natural tone above.
F double sharp=G Natural
Two special cases: E double sharp= F#
B double sharp=C#
however the occurence of these special cases is somewhat rare.
Oboeguy
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Author: Dee
Date: 2002-12-24 12:00
Actually the "special cases" are not special. The double sharp simply means to raise the note two half steps. So take a Bx. Raise it the first half step you get C natural. Then raise it the second half step, you get C#. The rule is the same for all notes (i.e. raise it two half steps). It is clearer when you look at the piano keyboard.
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Author: TorusTubarius
Date: 2002-12-24 13:06
Yes thank you, Dee. Knowledge of piano... indescribably important for musicians.
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Author: oboeguy
Date: 2002-12-25 04:56
Can you guys not read?!! I wrote:
--"yep, double sharp, play the next natural tone above.
F double sharp=G Natural
Two special cases: E double sharp= F#
B double sharp=C#
however the occurence of these special cases is somewhat rare.--
So, what does that mean now, ever so smart Dee? Those are the two spots on the piano where there isn't a black key separating the two natural pitches. meaning that instead of playing the next natural tone above, you play the next tone above, but sharped. I also play the piano, so I know.
How about reading what other people actually say before critisizing, and don't be so quick to put in your two cents Torus!
oboeguy
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Author: Dee
Date: 2002-12-25 19:18
Sorry, oboeguy but your approach is incorrect in music theory. You do not raise to the next natural note but have two exceptions. You raise the note two half steps and there are NO exceptions. You may know how to play the piano but your music theory is quite weak.
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Author: Steven King
Date: 2002-12-26 04:17
Oboeguy two spots on the piano that have no Black Keys is and interval called a natural interval meaning that what Dee said is correct. You can't have a B# becuase it would end up being a B if you were to play a Cb like in Thery a B# would be. But instead you play a C when you see a B# its a natural interval becuase there is no sharp or flat between the two.
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Author: Steven King
Date: 2002-12-26 04:20
Also if you look at it anyother way you will end up playing wrong notes. Using your thery would give you a weird result like if i had a Dbx you wouldent play a Eb you would play an E. And also the "specail" cases you are thinking of are holes were like i said before the natual intervals are. You just half to know were they are and what they are.
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Author: oboeguy
Date: 2002-12-26 06:24
I don't take very well to offence as you can see, especially when it isn't true!
Here's the "rule" I stated, put differently because you seem to not be able to grasp simple English:
"In general a double sharped note plays the next natural tone above." HOWEVER(meaning an EXCEPTION)the only deviances to this general rule are the two situations of E## and B##. If you had any idea of how people learn music, you would realize that this is a VERY good way of putting it! Instead of having to remember SEVEN different situations of double sharps or flats, you apply one rule, and spot the minority of deviances. Believe me! For people that haven't played the piano,or even those that do, it is MUCH simpler! It's not a big concept, just that fact that those are two situations on the keyboard where there isn't a black key to separate the two white keys. Hey, I even bet you that the way you memorize it is: "Ok when I see a double sharp, take the next whole tone up, except for E## and B## because that happens to be where there isn't a 2 half steps to the next tone. Say it however you want, and disagree all you want, but that's what is going on in your head.
On a lighter note,or an analogy; to prove my point: If you were correcting a test, and when going to tally the score, you noticed that they seemed to have the majority of the answers correct. Would you count the checkmarks, or count the X's? Obviously the X's because it's faster! So when memorizing music theory, and moreso applying it when playing, it is easier to have very little to actually think about at one time. This process is called "chunking". If I see the pattern C-D-E-F-G in music, I don't go, ok, it's a C then a D then an E...etc...I go, ok those are the notes in a C major pentachord, or those are the first five notes in the C major scale. Now the same applies to the sharps idea. In general when I see a sharp I play the natural note, plus a half tone. Take an F#. It has a nice little black key on the keyboard to which it can call home. Likewise with C,D,G,and A sharp. Take E# now, for example is has a home, but it hasn't payed off the mortgage. It has to pay rent to live in F natural's house. The same relationshipe with Mr. B# and Landlord C natural. These are the two special notes, who need attention to assure their survival; they are unique, different, EXCEPTIONal.
Can you tell I'm taking musical education? (hopefully you see my point, I really don't want to have to write another 2 pager)
Oboeguy
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Author: Dee
Date: 2002-12-26 12:40
It is even better to have a rule where you don't have to remember any exceptions at all. The two half step rule does that and is consistent with music theory in general. The other method is not consistent with music theory. It does describe the situation but obscures the actual meaning of the double sharp or double flat.
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Author: Gnomon
Date: 2002-12-29 23:45
Oboeguy, both your way of stating it and Dee's are correct, but Dee's is much simpler and is the way that is taught in standard musical education. Dee has been playing music for a lot longer than you have, and she does understand both music and English!
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Author: TorusTubarius
Date: 2002-12-30 00:52
*Ahem* Well actually oboeguy my "two cents" were meant to express how important I think it is to have a knowledge of piano in general, not how much more correct I thought Dee's explanation was than yours. My aren't we defensive?
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Author: oboeguy
Date: 2002-12-31 02:55
Yeah, I was a little annoyed, but yeah. The fact is, not everyone has the opportunity to have previously played piano, therefore, for some, it would be hard to understand it Dee's way. I'm not saying that Dee is saying anything untrue, but when you think about memorizing i find it easier to have, say, 3 things to think about rather than 7. Consider computer programming. If your computer had to process each and every situation of a double sharp seperately it would way take longer than saying: "ok, C,D,F,G,A double sharp play the next natural whole tone up whereas E and B double sharp play the next tone up but sharped. It would have 2 or 3 things to think through. Much faster I think. You can go on about how musically incorrect it is to say that, but if you think about it, what exactly is a double sharp? Meaning to play the next tone up! It may not be written that way, but enharmonically it's the exact same thing.
Stop and think: when you go to play a E## on the piano you don't go looking for the E## key, you look for the F# key. For younger students, such as the person who initially asked the question, all they really need to know is what enharmonic note they should play. Once they start to grasp the concept on what a double sharp actually is, they can go on to see what it is used for. I rarely ever see E##, and B## Simply because for them to occur, they have to be in a heavily sharped key like D# major, but by then, the key can be wrapped, and stated as Eb instead, which most people do.There is the odd time in alto sax music, where I will occasionally see it, due to a concert C##, or a Concert A##. That is why I said they are more rare. They simply don't put that in lower level music. Typical double sharps aren't even written in music until you get up to at least Grade 5 Conservatory.
oboeguy
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Author: TorusTubarius
Date: 2003-01-02 00:44
Oh yeah that reminds me. I'm real fuzzy on this whole grade-level music thing. What are some pieces that I might recognize from the various grades?
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Author: Dee
Date: 2003-01-02 20:14
On the grade level thing, there's two different definitions. One is that used in Great Britain and it is a formalized government system that you can go test on and get certified to that level. It is explained at
http://www.abrsm.ac.uk/clarinet.html
Then there is a system of rating band music in the US. It's not formalized and there is no governing body that establishes what are the requirements for each grade level. The music publishers & educators grade the music based on their own opinions. However it works reasonably well for estimating whether a piece is too hard or too easy for a given band.
There is NO relationship between the two systems.
As far as notation and music theory, I believe it is better to teach an item correctly from the beginning even though that may include some additional explanation. This saves the student from having to unlearn the incorrect theory at a later date. As far as saying that pianos aren't that accessible, every public school has one and the teacher could demonstrate. If that is considered impractical, pictures of a piano key board can be used just as easily to illustrate the steps and half steps. It just isn't that hard to teach it correctly from the beginning.
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Author: oboeguy
Date: 2003-01-03 18:50
in Canada, or Alberta anyways, there is a "governing body" for Band Music, the Alberta Band Association. They don't have stringent tests for it, because it is a collective group, rather than an individual. I'm not sure about the entire nation, but I'm pretty sure there is one. For solo instruments, we follow conservatory guidelines(from Toronto I believe). Grade 5, might be say, Handel's 1st sonata, for Oboe. That's the only one I remember performing, because I wasn't in grade 5 for that long.
Ok, I have a question, to a very new, barely scratching the surface beginner,who doesn't play the piano, therefore can't just look at the keyboard; how would you explain a double sharp, and have them remember it?
I would really like to hear this.
Oboeguy
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Author: Dee
Date: 2003-01-05 00:48
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oboeguy wrote:
[snip]
Ok, I have a question, to a very new, barely scratching the surface beginner,who doesn't play the piano, therefore can't just look at the keyboard; how would you explain a double sharp, and have them remember it?
I would really like to hear this.
-------------------------
I already explained this. It's called the teacher shows it on a piano (almost all schools have one or more) OR USES A PHOTO OR PICTURE OF PART OF A KEYBOARD. To get academic music credit, schools are moving towards giving written tests to band students on theory so hopefully they will start learning these things.
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